Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

First of all I would like to state if Carver is not happy with this thread taking place it can be removed and nothing more can be said.

As we know I never made my last counter to Carver. So all I will be doing here is pasting mine and Carvers old responses in order then my final reply to Carver.

So far all I know of a confirmed judge is DarkSaint. Leonidas said he wasn't too sure so I am asking Digi and to be honest it is up to Supermex if he wants to revote. I haven't asked him yet but probably will after I finish making all of my replies.

Even if the vote ends up the same way I would just like to know I managed to get my final post in.

So here is Carvers first post. We ended up typing very large messages each so I will state 1 post number and when it is a reply.


Carver's First Post

Originally posted by carver9
Let's begin. The last discussion One Shot and myself had...he thought Sentry was weakened due to him standing in front of a door for 24 hrs and some humans in a helicopter saying Sentry have mental problems. We also discussed if Sentry was holding back in which he said yes. I asked him again via PM and he said that he will provide that in his posts. I don't know if his stance has changed but if it's the same, I completely disagree with that since it goes against the entire arc and goes against Sentry needing to expend everything in order to stop Hulk. My first scan is Ironman explaining to Sentry the importance of him fighting the Hulk. He explains that Sentry is the only being with enough power to stop a being of this power. Sentry seems worried because he knows that he would have to give EVERYTHING to stop WWH. Sentry standing at the front door for hours took place before the scan i am presenting.

Tony tells Sentry that he would need to play god to save Earth from Hulk as shown here.

http://i.imgur.com/avM75d5.jpg


As shown in the scan Sentry is worried. Not worried about him being weakened during a fight like this. He is worried about the power he would have to unleash against an opponent like WWH. He knows that it would take any and everything to stop this being. Let's continue...

As shown in the scan above Sentry knew what kind of power it would take to stop WWH with no evidence 'after this' of him having any mental illnesses. Sentry then join the battle. When Sentry get there, to the battlefield to face Hulk, what does he say? "It's time to play god".

http://i.imgur.com/15bZVh5.jpg

Doesn't sound like a guy that is having any mental issues or holding back. This guy is full of confidence. Let's continue. Now we need to find out if he was holding back his power against the Hulk. Would a guy say this if he was holding back?

Hulk tells Sentry "you don't want this fight Sentry". What does Sentry say?

"Oh God yes I do. You're the only one I can hit like THIS".

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...wwh010.jpg.html

Doesn't sound like a guy that was holding back, let alone weakened. Let's continue...
This next response goes back to the first scan i posted. Here Sentry unleash enough energy to not only throw Hulk some ft away but it has Earth hero's worried. Ben states "I guess he is busting out those powers of a million exploding suns" and what does Reed say after this? "But he's a shizo, scared of his own power...HE'S NEVER UNLEASHED LIKE THIS BEFORE. Tony, what did you tell him?".

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...wwh016.jpg.html

Continued...


Carver's Second Post

Originally posted by carver9
Tony states "I told him that sometimes you have to play god". As shown in this scan as well, Pak also have them telling us that everything else on the planet will be destroyed because of Sentry.

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...wwh017.jpg.html

As shown here, this is evidence that Sentry is doing exactly what he feared...he is unleashing all of his power as shown here.

http://i.imgur.com/FJs4SYWl.jpg

That power he was afraid of using because of the well beings of others has been unleashed. Sentry isn't holding anything back and this isn't per my words either. Sentry tells us he isn't holding anything back.

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...wwh020.jpg.html

"Aaaahhhh Bruce, you have to tell me something, does it always feel this good when you finally let go"?

http://i.imgur.com/R9m12Z4l.jpg

More proof that he is unleashing. Listen to his words. "All these yrs i tried to calm you down and now at the end of it all, it's me who can't seem to stop".

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...wh0225.jpg.html
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...wwh022.jpg.html

Goodbye old friend. Sentry knew everything was going to end because of his power output which is the reason he told him goodbye. Well, that's what I'm getting from it. I think that is solid proof that Sentry didn't have any mental issues during that fight. To the point that he himself admitted that he was playing god and convinced Tony of this. Convinced Reed and Ben that he was unleashing the power of a million exploding suns and even convinced himself along with others that the world was about to end.

Not in my next reply to Carver's post I commented in 2 lots as my first reply came in at 9600 or so words.

I'm now getting on to pasting in my replies.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I'm now getting on to pasting in my replies.

My reply to Carver's first post (part 1)

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
First of all, One Shot? I'm not that bad sad

Anyway onto the debate.

Your first paragraph is filled with a couple of misconceptions. I say and stand by it he was weakened by his mental illness but not because of one thing. That's absolutely untrue. And to further continue Carver states that it's because I said he stood in the doorway for 29 hours.

Which isn't true. It is part of my argument. But this is what Carver has left out. Is the actual scan itself.

http://i.imgur.com/rpF6aVfl.jpg

In which Tony first asks Robert what is he scared of, and he replies with "It's the Agoraphobia. Some days it's...

I can't...

I'm sorry Tony, you'll have to handle this one yourself"

This is the conversation that proceeds after this scan (although it takes place a few comics before)

http://i.imgur.com/s2s4uUpl.jpg

So carver has left out the part in which Sentry already states the Agoraphobia is affecting him. And as we know Sentry's power varies greatly on his mental state. So that's already 1 huge indicator it was affecting him. And him standing in a door way for 29 Hours is because he was in such a bad state he didn't want to go outside.

Which is common for people with Agoraphobia being scared of going outside (mixing in queues being in crowds) as I know myself. Although I have to admit I haven't clashed with the Hulk before...

He gets it wrong again. He says Sentry standing at the door took place before that scan, He is wrong because as we see, one of the people speaking outside the house says "I thought Iron Man spoke to him when this whole thing started, what the heck happened with that".

So if the person outside is saying what he said. Unless Greg Pak hugely messed up in his writing there is no possible situation in which it could have happened before. As why would they have mentioned Stark talking to him?

First of all I never said he was worried about being weakened. As that isn't what generally goes through a persons head. I will explain what I actually mean compared to what Carver is attributing to it. Sentry says "... Against an opponent this powerful...The amount of energy I'd have to expend...If I lost control, for even a millisecond".

The scan just for reference

http://i.imgur.com/4Y1oXQCl.jpg

By this Sentry means that due to his Agoraphobia he is and rightly so extremely scared of the Void. And when he loses control when he exerts a lot of power due to his mental state he risks releasing the Void. Here is another perfect example.

Here Sentry is with Jim Hammond in a comic.

http://i.imgur.com/qcN8Bnll.jpg

In this scan Jim Hammond takes advantage of the Sentry by telling him that he is giving him "more of that power you are always talking about". And due to Sentry's nature with regards to his mental state him releasing his power (unless he is stable) can cause him to lose control. And this is why in this scan Sentry flys away. With the only reason being he hasn't lost it here because he isn't actually receiving any power rather than he is being burnt. Except with the fact Jim Hammond is exploiting him so that he can remove him from the Battlefield. What he is speaking of in this scan Carver has mentioned is the exact same thing we see in that comic. But this time Robert doesn't have a choice to leave, as Tony says.

"But at this point, doing nothing is a decision in and of itself. No matter what you do or don't do, billions could die".

Carver then says,

"As shown in the scan above Sentry knew what kind of power it would take to stop WWH with no evidence 'after this' of him having any mental illnesses."

He didn't know what kind of power he needed, he is just saying he would need to exert a very large amount against an opponent like WWH. He then says with no evidence "after this" of having any mental illnesses".

And to be honest I don't really know how to respond to that, if you have read the comic we know that the part where he says

"It's the Agoraphobia. Some days it's...

I can't...

I'm sorry Tony, you'll have to handle this one yourself"

is before this conversation and the scan where Sentry mentions all this energy is straight after he mentions the Agoraphobia. So again I don't see how Carver can suggest he see's no sign of a mental illness when we all know infact this was the part of the same conversation.

Nope Carver mentions this scan. The "It's time to play God". I will explain this as well. As we already know the Agoraphobia was affecting him as I already presented. Then Tony said he had no choice. Sentry clearly wasn't going to intervene anyway until as shown by this scan.

http://i.imgur.com/obmpEIdl.jpg

Hulk was playing the role of the Emperor, thumbs up to let the Gladiator live or thumbs down if he is to be killed. Hulk puts his thumb down. Which is when as Tony said it doesn't really matter what he does or doesn't because billions could die. But as he says in the "it's time to play God scan". He tells Robert "You have the responsibility whether you want it or not". And he continues to say "I know you're not ready to hear this Robert, No sane person ever really is. But it's time to play God".

And by saying "No sane person ever really is" he is indicating even for a fully stable person that would be a hard thing to hear, so imagine what it must be like to Sentry?

Him (Carver) saying

"Doesn't sound like a guy that is having any mental issues or holding back. This guy is full of confidence."

Is neither here or there. We already know he was being affected by his Agoraphobia due to what has been said. Him saying "It's time to play God" has no relation to anything. He could be saying it because Tony said it to him or because he sees Hulk is trying to kill someone so Robert is deciding to "Play God" to stop him. Nothing is ever implied with regards to his mental illness.

His next part of his message is Carver trying to describe what someone would say when they are holding back, which is wrong. You can't just attribute words. The thing is with Carvers argument he is trying to go through scans and picking out words (not stating I am not) to say each time Sentry says something it means he isn't holding back. But the thing is it wont work in your favour when the subject you are debating is irrelevant to the scan..

Now adding in part 2 of my reply to Carver's 2nd post.

Reply to Carver's first Post (part 2)


Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot

One thing to think of would be why Hulk said "You don't want this fight Sentry"? This is something for judges to think of (as it is purely an idea.

Was he saying it because he knew what could happen. My idea is that Hulk may have known the implications of what may happen if Sentry did want the fight. Here are the scans for everyone to see.

http://i.imgur.com/pPv7BcZl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fTgFASpl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JV6QvXrl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hwvdG2Bl.jpg



It reminds me a lot of what Hulk says near the end of the battle.

http://i.imgur.com/EHr15hPl.jpg

"Stupid Humans, you think your machines can stop him?"

This section was mainly for judges and a quick question for Carver too I guess.


Again Carver says this "Doesn't sound like a guy that was holding back, let alone weakened. Let's continue..."

He is again attributing words to him, people who are weakened mentally aren't weakened as if they have a broken arm. Sentry is weakened mentally with regards or his power level being lower and he is more liable exert power without caring. So it's another misrepresentation.






Carver quotes the scan where Reed says due to Robert being an Agoraphobic Schizophrenic he has never unleashed his power like this.

Now something we need to clarify that Reed hasn't explicitly stated a power level i.e "IT's over 9000!"

He just said he has never seen him unleash it in this way. But like we have discussed when Robert is stable he rarely if anything releases a huge amount of power. He can keep it contained when he is stable. If you recall in Sentry Vol 2 Sentry fights the Void. But did we see him throwing out gargantuan blasts of energy ripping the landscape apart? No we didn't.

Heck look at this scan from the Genis Vell fight.

http://i.imgur.com/ARgvHHhl.jpg

We can see Sentry and Photon are releasing energy to shatter entire worlds while holding back. But is he letting out so much power that he is levelling a large area.

In fact he is in the microverse where in this case the atoms in the Microverse are the size of planets. So in this world he is barely expending any energy outside of his being.

My reply to Carver's Second Post

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot

Sure I agree with Carver, they said what he said. But it again doesn't imply Sentry was cutting loose deliberately. All they are saying is what they are saying.

Carver again is sneaking in words here. I will highlight the problematic parts of it.

"As shown here, this is evidence that Sentry is doing exactly what he feared...he is unleashing all of his power as shown here."

http://rs118.pbsrc.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/wwh018.jpg~320x480

That power he was afraid of using because of the well beings of others has been unleashed. Sentry isn't holding anything back and this isn't per my words either. Sentry tells us he isn't holding anything back.

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...wwh020.jpg.html"

Firstly we know it wasn't all of his power. That isn't right at all. One we know he was weakened so he wasn't unleashing his full power.

What he was doing was failing to contain the power he was expending due to his mental state.

The other parts I have bolded mainly been explained by my other posts. We know that it's due to him losing control. Like he feared and partly what I think Hulk perhaps not feared but knew would happen. But anyways onto other parts of your message. One quick thing I will throw in. Carver saying "proof he is unleashing" again is neither here nor there. To everyone watching the fight he is unleashing.

I mean imagine me, Carver, Supermex, DarkSaint and Leonidas were all sitting there watching the fight. We would all say he is unleashing. But as we as people reading a comic we can dissect the comic and see that infact he is unleashing. But he is unleashing a lower level of power due to him being weakened.

But due to his bad mental state he couldn't contain it. Which is why Sentry said.

"... Against an opponent this powerful...The amount of energy I'd have to expend...If I lost control, for even a millisecond"."

Because this would happen. He would lose control and end up exerting to much due to his mental state.

Now my final words for the battlezone.


Carver hasn't fully quoted Sentry, this is what he said.

"All these years...I tried too calm you down. And now at the end of it all...It's me...who can't seem to stop. Goodbye old friend"

If Sentry wasn't holding back (under his own control) would he say them words, because if someone wasn't holding back they would repeatedly be pounding into him. But as Robert says "It's me... who can't seem to stop" he is losing control (or has depending on your opinion). Also note Sentry was allowing Hulk to punch him much like in the beginning of the battle where he said "just once more

Carver also says he is unleashing the power of a million exploding suns based on what Reed and Ben said. But like explained I have covered this in another reply.

What I have to add is that at the end of the battle it briefly became World War Sentry #5. Here I will post the 3 scans I am speaking of.

http://i.imgur.com/FWZnC8Yl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J2R8wObl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FgJd396l.jpg



As we see this is right at the end of the battle. There was no other choice for the Hulk than to stop Sentry. He literally had no other choice.

As we see Hulk say.


"Stupid. They can call you whatever they want. Savior. Destroyer. All that matters... is what you choose"

Hulk had one last shot at convincing Robert before he destroyed the world. And this was it. Hulks words get through to the Sentry. As we see in the 2nd panel Sentry's eyes are faltering. Then after they punch eachother for the last time. This happens.

http://i.imgur.com/FgJd396l.jpg

Robert is thanking Bruce for making him think about what he could be, and Robert chose the Savior.

And this is backed up by the man himself. Greg Pak.

http://i.imgur.com/hVOswra.jpg

This is now the end of my posts on this battlezone. I originally intended it to count as one but now I see it I can't continue to argue in any other direction.

I will make a statement on my thoughts with my last reply.

Now again Carver had a third post split into 2 parts. Which was the one I never got to reply to.

Well now I have typed it up.

So the format will be

Carver's Third Post (part 1) and 2. Then my repCarvers Third Post (part 1)


Originally posted by carver9
Nothing against you One Angry but your posts seems like a lot of assumptions imo. Let me tell you why...

We all know that Sentry mental illness is ALWAYS there. This isn't something that disappears over time. Even after the WWH arc he was still mentally unstable, so we can't pick and choose which fights to accept as legit for the Sentry because he has issues. We would need concrete proof and I don't think the scans presented is enough.

In the first scan Sentry tells us that some days, his condition isn't... he never tells us if it was impacting him at that moment, he just say "some days". Was his condition messing with him on that day? Probably, but he never told us this, he just said "some days, its... I can't". Sentry then have his talk with Stark and moments later he tells us he is about to play god.

He also states that I left out Sentry telling us that it is affecting him. Where did Sentry tell us this? He never did. He just said "some days, its... that isn't telling us anything. He is letting us know that his condition impacts him sometimes but was it on that day? Did he tell us this? No. He never outright say "my condition is bothering me today. Maybe I need to stay away from fighting the Hulk". You have to remember, this condition is ALWAYS there...which fights do we dismiss for the Sentry and which fight do we accept? Do we accept all of his high showings where he beats or stalemates someone and use it as his average or do we accept all unless stated otherwise by the Sentry that his condition was bothering him. There were times where Sentry straight up owned people even though his mentality wasn't all there. Here is an example of Sentry during his mental stages. He was acting child like during this story, to the point that he attacked Doom for nothing...asking Doom to put things back the way they were.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomvsAvengers09.jpg

Doom even tells us he isn't a well man.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/On...gers10.jpg.html

This same Sentry handles a punch from Ben better than any top tier I've seen.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179428-2.jpg

So here we have Sentry with a child like mentality. Obvious something is wrong with him but he casually owns Doom physically and tanks a punch from Ben better than Thor, Hulk, and BB combined. Is there a limit to this? When do we know when his power is down? It wasn't said during WWH. Hell, the opposite was said (time to play god, you're the only one I can punch like THIS. Does it always feel this good this good to let go).

In the next scan he post where Sentry and Ironman is talking...he said that Sentry was talking about Void when he was discussing the amount of power output he would have to dish out when facing Hulk. Where did he get that from in that scan? No where in that scan did Sentry even mention Void. No where. So I have no ideal where One Angry got that from. Also, in the scan where he is fighting Human Torch, him giving Sentry more power doesn't mean Sentry was weakened. Had a lot to do with Sentry being afraid of his own power.

Also, like I previously said, we can't just dish out every fight that doesn't go Sentry way because of a mental issue Sentry has. If we are saying he was weakened against Hulk, then why not against Genis, Terrax, Absorbing man, etc... this isn't a condition that can be turned on and off. It's always there. So which fights do we accept and not accept? What we do know is that Bob gave his all against WWH because he said "is this how it feels to let go". Nothing was said before hand of him being weakened, let alone having aby mental issues that was hindering him/his power.

He then brings up Sentry being able to contain his power as shown in the Sentry vs Genis fight. How is that containing power when he almost killed Cap while dishing out planetary power near the same surface Cap was on. Genis has to teleport Cap from the battlefield in prevention of him getting killed as Genis and Sentry fought.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8394/newthunderbolts014page1.jpg

Looking at the scans above, Sentry didn't even care about Cap well being. Don't see how anyone would consider that 'containing power'. If Genis wasn't there, Cap probably would've died.

He then states that Sentry during his fight against Hulk was failing to contain the power due to his mental state. That was never said. What Sentry did tell us is, he was letting go. He was Amazed at how it felt to unleash.

Continued...

Carver's Third Post (part 2)

Originally posted by carver9
He say Hulk didn't have a choice but to stop Sentry 'per words'. I disagree entirely. If Hulk words had anything to do with Sentry stopping, why we're they still pounding on each other until the end?

http://rs118.pbsrc.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/wwh023.jpg~320x480
http://rs118.pbsrc.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/wwh024.jpg~320x480


Why continue to pound on someone if you are trying to stop them from fighting. You cant take Pak words for it because he is unsure (and on panel evidence overrides writers opinions) per his own words and Hulk pounded on Sentry until he passed out (and Sentry was hitting Hulk as well) and was carried to the hospital.

http://rs118.pbsrc.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/wwh026.jpg~320x480

So again, you have to ask yourself...what fights do we accept of Sentry. His condition is always there...he's never stable. Do we only accept the fights he wins. Do we only accept his high showings as his norm when he can remember who he is? Where does this stop. In every last one of his fight his mental issues were there. This isn't something that disappears. He is afraid of his own power, that doesn't mean he is weakened every time he is in combat.

As shown here, Sentry rushed in swinging but that's all it took was the right words to send him flying off. Not because he was weakened, not because his powers were being drained, he fled because he was given too much power.

http://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/human-torch-vs-sentry.jpg

Do we exempt this showing as well? Would this be considered a weakened Sentry? I don't think so because his mentality is part of him. There could be times where he is or could be weakened but I don't think this should be a guessing game. I think it needs to be something that is broadcasted to us. What I do know is that Sentry faced Hulk and said that he was playing god. Sentry also said that "is this how it feels to let go", he also said, "you're the only person I can hit like THIS". Too much is being thrown at us to know Sentry came to the battle with the mindset of taking Hulk out. Pak threw at us in the same story that Sentry was dishing out the power of exploding suns. Pak had Reed say Sentry never used his power like this before. Had people thinking it was the end. All of this was thrown at us and Sentry felt as if he was ready when he jumped into the battle and came in smiling. The evidence is there. The words are there...it's up to you to determine the meaning. While you're thinking of that, answer this. If Sentry wasn't holding back/wasn't at full power, I'm pretty sure all of you are familiar with the character and knows he is mentally unstable. Which fights was he stable? Which fights do we accept for the character and why? Why accept that as a non holding back Sentry and not this one? His mental issues is always there. It doesn't take much to trigger it. As shown here, before this he was fighting Ironman with not trouble at all (will post scans afterwards) and then Ironman use Cloc to load numerous of natural disasters etc and Sentry goes into a mental breakdown because too much was being thrown at him.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/On...ntry05.jpg.html
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1274/invincibleironmanv4011p.jpg


Previous showings of the fight.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/...onmanv4011p.jpg
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/...onmanv4011p.jpg
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/...onmanv4011p.jpg

Was Sentry weakened there as well? When do we accept his loses? He is always mentally unstable. ALWAYS. If Hulk would've defeated him by saying the right words, would that have been a weakened Sentry as well? Hell, what is a Sentry at his Prime? Does anyone know. If he would've defeated WWH, would that have been a Sentry at his Prime? Who knows but I don't think we should classify this fight, his Hulk fight as a weaned Sentry unless stated otherwise 'in the comic'. This falls back on the Gladiator/Kallark thing we have in place. When is he confident? Can I say that since he didn't do this and that against Thor, he wasn't full confident? He was weakened. This applies to every character who's abilities clings to their personality. Hulk being one of them. I have just as much rights as Sentry fans does to say Hulk was weakened since his powers thrives off of his personality. It wouldn't make me any different than One Angry. I'm done unless something else is said after this.

Now I will be pasting in my replies to Carvers Third Post.

With it being replied in terms of.

My reply to part 1 of Carver's 1st Post (same with 2nd)

Collective Battle I. Part 1

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397219_1.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397221_2.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397222_3.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397223_4.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397224_5.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397226_6.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397227_7.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397228_8.jpg

Collective Battle I. Part 2.

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397229_9.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397230_10.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397232_11.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397233_12.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397234_13.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/21397235_14.jpg

Genis Vell Battle II.


http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21398325_1.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21398326_2.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21398328_3.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/21398330_4.jpg

So basically the above battles I assigned a number. So when I say it is fight I. I am referring to you visit the post which contains the fight so you can get the point from there.



I am now typing in my reply to Carver's part 2 of his Third Post.

Right so this is what I was ready to post.

I hope this is okay.

I will be contacting the various judges shortly.

You replied to one of the people who judged the previous battle. Don't know what kind of battlezone this is but it's backwards. Then you have new judges coming in except the one who voted for you. Backwards but oh well...it doesn't matter. This battlezone was over with a long time ago.

Originally posted by carver9
You replied to one of the people who judged the previous battle. Don't know what kind of battlezone this is but it's backwards. Then you have new judges coming in except the one who voted for you. Backwards but oh well...it doesn't matter. This battlezone was over with a long time ago.

First of all Leonidas said he may not be ale to vote. I have asked Supermex.

Pick a judge to replace DarkSaint then.

It's no bother to me.

I also said if that's not allowed then ignore it. So if so the judges can not count it. I don't care either way.

Pick 3 judges.

I picked DarkSaint
Leonidas (if he wants to judge if not then Digi) and then Supermex)

So don't accuse me of choosing different people.

I can show you the PM Leonidas sent me if you want.

And actually if you really are uncomfortable with DS judging again.

Replace him with Digi.

I honestly didn't know replying to Leo's judgement was not allowed. I used it to clarify my post.

Leo's message.

http://i.imgur.com/XEIoo6vl.png

Supermex's message.

http://i.imgur.com/jM5GUTEl.png

So no I didn't pick the one that only chose me.

I messaged all of the judges we had previously.

The only reason I was 50/50 on Leonidas was because of what he said (and why I have Digi on standby. And I hadn't PM'd Supermex till 30 minutes ago.

If you want I can PM the mods and ask them to remove that part of my message. If they say it isn't allowed.

You should of chose new judges all around. Why pick the same ones? Especially when the thread was being derailed with people disagreeing and fussing at the judges for making their decisions. Darksaint is going to vote for you, we know this. Leo voted for me in the other thread and got attacked for it. Supremex got attacked as well. Why even put them in a situation like that again. Then, you replied to Leo, one of the judges in the previous thread, disagreeing with him. This battlezone had nothing to do with Leo, so why reply to him? He gave his opinion, you should've left it at that. This battlezone is sloppy and honestly, I don't care for it. The judges can give their opinions if they want but this should've been handled differently. Even in the other thread. You said that we would do 3 posts each...you then change the rules in the middle of our debate. No, the rules were in place. It should've been left as is. Anyways digi is a good guy and I am ok with him or whoever you choose.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Leo's message.

http://i.imgur.com/XEIoo6vl.png

Supermex's message.

http://i.imgur.com/jM5GUTEl.png

So no I didn't pick the one that only chose me.

I messaged all of the judges we had previously.

The only reason I was 50/50 on Leonidas was because of what he said (and why I have Digi on standby. And I hadn't PM'd Supermex till 30 minutes ago.

If you want I can PM the mods and ask them to remove that part of my message. If they say it isn't allowed.

I agree with Leo 100%. You can keep Supremex if you want. He's a good guy so whatever his decision is, I'm ok with it.

Originally posted by carver9
You should of chose new judges all around. Why pick the same ones? Especially when the thread was being derailed with people disagreeing and fussing at the judges for making their decisions. Darksaint is going to vote for you, we know this. Leo voted for me in the other thread and got attacked for it. Supremex got attacked as well. Why even put them in a situation like that again. Then, you replied to Leo, one of the judges in the previous thread, disagreeing with him. This battlezone had nothing to do with Leo, so why reply to him? He gave his opinion, you should've left it at that. This battlezone is sloppy and honestly, I don't care for it. The judges can give their opinions if they want but this should've been handled differently. Even in the other thread. You said that we would do 3 posts each...you then change the rules in the middle of our debate. No, the rules were in place. It should've been left as is. Anyways digi is a good guy and I am ok with him or whoever you choose.

We all know that you said it was a warm up and you was cool with me having 1 more post.

And like I said pick another 2 judges.

And when I said DS was unbiased you were fine with him judging.

Tell me Carver why did you let him judge your BZ with Stoic if you didn't trust him.

But anyway lets not argue. I just want this sorted.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
We all know that you said it was a warm up and you was cool with me having 1 more post.

And like I said pick another 2 judges.

And when I said DS was unbiased you were fine with him judging.

Tell me Carver why did you let him judge your BZ with Stoic if you didn't trust him.

But anyway lets not argue. I just want this sorted.

I trust Darksaint judgment...that's not what I am saying. If all 3 of the judges are not the same ones then all of them should be changed, not just 1 or 2 of them. Then, Supremex got attacked along with Leo...anyone who judges minus a mod should he cautious of giving their opinion after what happened in the previous thread. Maybe you need to read back through that thread. I gave you the win since it was my fault it was ruined in the first place. Don't know why you didn't leave it at that. You can pick the 3 judges...I'm ok with that.

We need to keep this BZ as clean as possible.

No matter the conclusion that is reached I just want to make sure we both agree on that.

Originally posted by carver9
I trust Darksaint judgment...that's not what I am saying. If all 3 of the judges are not the same ones then all of them should be changed, not just 1 or 2 of them. Then, Supremex got attacked along with Leo...anyone who judges minus a mod should he cautious of giving their opinion after what happened in the previous thread. Maybe you need to read back through that thread. I gave you the win since it was my fault that it was ruined in the first place. Don't know why you didn't leave it at that. You can pick the 3 judges...I'm ok with that.

Leonidas is one of the most highly regarded people on KMC one that I am happy to debate with.

I know you gave me the win but that isn't the point. I never won fairly. Plus you don't agree with my argument so why would I accept the concession. I just think it's dishonourable to take that win for reasons mentioned.

I mean DS wont respond for a while I guess because he is on my timezone so he is in bed.

Supermex is already reading this so he is already making a judgement.

So who do you consider to be the 1 other person you would choose?

Digi
Supermex
?

We need one more.

Remember the reason it got hostile was because it was over disagreement. People will learn form the last thread.

You can pick the judges. I'm ok with it.

Originally posted by carver9
You can pick the judges. I'm ok with it.

You know how I am with making decisions. It makes me nervous. I would prefer you to choose.

I'm not good with that sort of thing.

And you're good enough guy to make the right decision anyway, so it is all cool if you choose.

Carver how about Bentley?

We need to start getting names.

I mean Digi and Mex can make their decisions if they can tomorrow (in my timezone)

We can get a 3rd to judge in the next day or so.

Damborgson is on the way.

Originally posted by carver9
Damborgson is on the way.

Okay cool.

I sleep a lot.

I'd say I'm the only one who should be kept, as barring Scot monumentally phucking up his argument, my judgement has the least chance of being changed by one more post from Scot.

However, if Carver feels we should have a clean slate, I can of course bow out, no hard feelings.

I think it be fair that you guys get 3 new judges


I'm going to stay out of this. Last time we did this some peeps got there undies bunched up and even send some shitty pm's over this lol

But really it be fair if you guys get 3 new judges

The only thing that's certain, is that whoever you pick will be drastically inferior to the dream team of Supersex, DarkTaint and Leo....Leo...Leobidas.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The only thing that's certain, is that whoever you pick will be drastically inferior to the dream team of Supersex, DarkTaint and Leo....Leo...Leobidas.

damn, you peaked at supersex....

but, yeah, nothing against either of you of course, (and thanks for looking out carver but getting 'attacked' isn't much of a concern either.... ) but i'd think new eyes are a better choice. i'll read the result with some interest, but prolly best after the mess that was created that someone new take the reins in this one...

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Leonidas is one of the most highly regarded people on KMC

He is? By whom?

Originally posted by Bentley
He is? By whom?














































I just heard him mentioned a lot when I first came here on like July 2013.

So currently we have.

Digi
Damborgson

As judges. I will have to find a third.

Got a 3rd. One sec...let me make sure. Still continue to look.

Still trying to think of a 3rd judge.

Who did you PM?

Celeyhyga and Jay.

Originally posted by carver9
Celeyhyga and Jay.

That'd be 4 judges though.

Since we already have Digi and Damborgson I mean.

I know. Whoever replies first.

Digi is great choice


I think rev would be a good choice to.


What about Pedafilo lol

Originally posted by Supermex
Digi is great choice


I think rev would be a good choice to.


What about Pedafilo lol

Yeah I mean we are just waiting on judges to give their views now.

Almost done. Am i posting here or pm'ing some foo?

In order:

1. Am I still a judge?
2. Am I just supposed to be reading this thread, or both the old one and this one?
3. As celeyhyga asked, am I PMing my decision, or posting here?
4. Next time, do everyone a favor and make a post limit. For something that's not even a full battle, 3-5 should do it. If it's a struggle with images, just post links instead (imgur, photobucket, whatever else the kids are using these days, etc.). I'm happy to look at this, I just want to understand my role before I start. Thanks.

I'll make this short seeing as how this was one clusterphukk of a match.

We can all wax poetic when it comes to these hyper roided herald level characters.. It seems as though they are always coming out with wtf power feats that contradict their other showings. We'd just end up going on and about this character was holding back, this character was weakend, etc. etc....

I'm jus going to keep it simple and focus in on this particular showing between the two. I fully understand what One_A_S was trying to explain, but I just can't make myself lean towards his view. It's true that Sentry is one deranged fukk, but that final scene was very telling. He seemed less burdened and was almost at peace in his attempt to put down WWBiatch. "But Sentry has exerted more output against other opponents?"
Collateral damage is not the be all end all as we know. Sometimes the settings allow for cheese feats to happen. I doubt Pak would have destroyed earth right then and there.

And even though Sentry did seem to "pull back" in the end, it really wasn't his mental illness that made him do so.


So in conclusion, my vote goes to Carver even though Sentry not holding back would still beat Hulk.

Originally posted by Digi
In order:

1. Am I still a judge?
2. Am I just supposed to be reading this thread, or both the old one and this one?
3. As celeyhyga asked, am I PMing my decision, or posting here?
4. Next time, do everyone a favor and make a post limit. For something that's not even a full battle, 3-5 should do it. If it's a struggle with images, just post links instead (imgur, photobucket, whatever else the kids are using these days, etc.). I'm happy to look at this, I just want to understand my role before I start. Thanks.

Hello Digi. I didn't know about this thread until yesterday. Just read through the thread and post here like Celey did. I agree with the cluster, sorry about that.

Originally posted by Digi
In order:

1. Am I still a judge?
2. Am I just supposed to be reading this thread, or both the old one and this one?
3. As celeyhyga asked, am I PMing my decision, or posting here?
4. Next time, do everyone a favor and make a post limit. For something that's not even a full battle, 3-5 should do it. If it's a struggle with images, just post links instead (imgur, photobucket, whatever else the kids are using these days, etc.). I'm happy to look at this, I just want to understand my role before I start. Thanks.

Yeah you're still a judge.

Just this one as old one has the same responses.

Posting here like Carver said.

Ok. If I grasped this correctly, the point of the argument is to prove whether or not Bob was experiencing mental issues and had his power level reduced/wasn't able to use it to the full of his ability right? If so, here I go.

The debate was very hard to judge for me because I have a personal opinion on the matter, and had to make sure to keep that out of the decision.

I feel you both made strong points, and I'm not just saying that, I did a flip flop a few times. One Scott, you did a good job making sure not to let Carver's over interpretation of scans be left unchecked. You made him explain his reasoning and it came up faulty at times.

Carver you did well to point out that Sentry wasn't acting like a man who was holding back his power, and that even in a more controlled mental state he wasn't displaying much control to begin with....


God damnit this is difficult. Here's the deal, you're both right. To me, it's become obvious from the debate that Sentry was not in a good mental state and it was affecting his fighting. BUT. I don't think it affected his power. Scott proved that when Sentry is having a bad day, he curls up and really loses the will to fight. Sentry wasn't acting like that agaisnt WWH. He was clearly deranged, but a huge part of the Sentry losing power stems from him being afraid of going to far and not being able to control his powers if he loses sanity. Against WWH, he didn't appear to particularly care after he left the house. So his power wasn't being weakened, because he no longer cared to do so.

Now, THAT SAID. Just because he was not restraining himself, does not mean he was using every bit of power he could use. Scott brought up that Pak said something to the extent of Sentry being stopped before going too far, and I agree that it's reasonable to believe that he wasn't quite pouring everything he had into it. Carver, what type of bullshit is this that differently interpreted on panel happenings overrule direct writer input? On his own work no less? No.

So final verdict: The sentry was indeed affected mentally. That hampered the way he fought, that hampered him at first because of his fear of letting go also. Once he let go, he was no longer restraining himself, but that doesn't mean he was giving it 110% with every show either. He was taken down before destroying everything if I'm interpreting what Pak said correctly. He was not "weakened" from a power sense however, meaning he didn't have less than his full power at his disposal. He was weakened in the sense that plot demanded he fight like that so Hulk could win lol. So I'll give it Carver by the slimmest slimmest of margins.

Nice job both of you, pretty good debating all around. Feel free to ask any questions if you'd like me to clarify something. I would've called it a draw had I had not been forced to have an answer lol.

Thanks everyone.

And good job to Carver.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Ok. If I grasped this correctly, the point of the argument is to prove whether or not Bob was experiencing mental issues and had his power level reduced/wasn't able to use it to the full of his ability right? If so, here I go.

The debate was very hard to judge for me because I have a personal opinion on the matter, and had to make sure to keep that out of the decision.

I feel you both made strong points, and I'm not just saying that, I did a flip flop a few times. One Scott, you did a good job making sure not to let Carver's over interpretation of scans be left unchecked. You made him explain his reasoning and it came up faulty at times.

Carver you did well to point out that Sentry wasn't acting like a man who was holding back his power, and that even in a more controlled mental state he wasn't displaying much control to begin with....


God damnit this is difficult. Here's the deal, you're both right. To me, it's become obvious from the debate that Sentry was not in a good mental state and it was affecting his fighting. BUT. I don't think it affected his power. Scott proved that when Sentry is having a bad day, he curls up and really loses the will to fight. Sentry wasn't acting like that agaisnt WWH. He was clearly deranged, but a huge part of the Sentry losing power stems from him being afraid of going to far and not being able to control his powers if he loses sanity. Against WWH, he didn't appear to particularly care after he left the house. So his power wasn't being weakened, because he no longer cared to do so.

Now, THAT SAID. Just because he was not restraining himself, does not mean he was using every bit of power he could use. Scott brought up that Pak said something to the extent of Sentry being stopped before going too far, and I agree that it's reasonable to believe that he wasn't quite pouring everything he had into it. Carver, what type of bullshit is this that differently interpreted on panel happenings overrule direct writer input? On his own work no less? No.

So final verdict: The sentry was indeed affected mentally. That hampered the way he fought, that hampered him at first because of his fear of letting go also. Once he let go, he was no longer restraining himself, but that doesn't mean he was giving it 110% with every show either. He was taken down before destroying everything if I'm interpreting what Pak said correctly. He was not "weakened" from a power sense however, meaning he didn't have less than his full power at his disposal. He was weakened in the sense that plot demanded he fight like that so Hulk could win lol. So I'll give it Carver by the slimmest slimmest of margins.

Nice job both of you, pretty good debating all around. Feel free to ask any questions if you'd like me to clarify something. I would've called it a draw had I had not been forced to have an answer lol.

Thanks for your input. So in short you think he was affected mentally but after the leaving the house. He wasn't?

I generally put it as he lost control halfway through which meant he failed to contain what he normally would he in.

I think its only Digi we are waiting for now.

And while I am at it.

I think we should reach a consensus on this whole thing. So when a Sentry thread comes up we don't debate the same thing.


But as you said we will catch up on Friday.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Thanks for your input. So in short you think he was affected mentally but after the leaving the house. He wasn't?

I generally put it as he lost control halfway through which meant he failed to contain what he normally would he in.

I think the agoraphobia was what prevented him from leaving. Once he left and started fighting, he was still mentally ill because he was so self destructive, but his power wasn't being dampened at that time.

One more thing, when the Sentry says "some days are....im sorry I can't. " He's not mentioning just some random day Carver. It's beyond obvious what he's talking about.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I think the agoraphobia was what prevented him from leaving. Once he left and started fighting, he was still mentally ill because he was so self destructive, but his power wasn't being dampened at that time.

One more thing, when the Sentry says "some days are....im sorry I can't. " He's not mentioning just some random day Carver. It's beyond obvious what he's talking about.

I agree with what you said here. Robert lost control or started too so that's why he just cut loose.

Hello all and thanks for the votes everyone along with the opinions gave here. I will post some replies to Celey and Damborgson (nothing crazy because you all made some good points) once Digi posts. Don't want to post anything further to sway him from his decision. I will post once the battlezone is done.

Alright, I'm going to sound like a bit of a curmudgeon here, so apologies in advance. You both debated well, minus the caveats I'm about to mention:

This isn't a BZ so much as a series of quotes copy/pasted from elsewhere. It was very hard to follow, even knowing that I was only focusing on one question.

Second, this kind of thing is the absolute height of subjectivity in comics. The kind that we just have to live with, that will never have a definitive answer. I do have an opinion that I'm about to share, but there's isn't a "right" answer here. No number of judges will change that.

Carver's going to get my vote on a technicality, and it's similar to what the other judges have said. Yes, Sentry holds back, and yes, he has the greater overall power. If it were just about holding back, we have Sentry's entire canon outside the WWH fight, added to Pak's words. Carver's correct in saying feats trump writer opinions. But we don't have a clear-cut feat, and Bob's "thanks" has to mean something. So I think Pak's interpretation of that moment makes perfect sense. But the question is if he holds back due to mental instability. And it's actually the opposite. He makes a conscious decision to hold back, to be the savior. It's a moment of heroic clarity, not mental instability.

So I'm not sure that's an affirmative or negative for/against either entire argument. But because of how the question is worded, that's the likeliest scenario imo.

Thanks everyone. Good fight One Angry. My next battlezone will be with either time or Damborgson.

Im on Christmas break so i have time until around January 3rd or so.