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Gohan toyed with Buu. Can he beat both SSJ3's, at the same time?

Goku is outclassed here but I'm not sure if it's at the point where he's a non factor. I think I'm going Gohan, especially considering he has no strain on his body compared to how SSJ3 is like operating with a heart attack.

gohan is the strongest non fused character in dbz he wins besides the gods and god mode goku he wins

Gohan wins, and easily so.

As evident by their battle, SSJ3 Gotenks was very close to Super Buu's level. Conversely, Goku stated that Super Buu was considerably more powerful than himself--to the point where Goku didn't even try to fight him. This is important because Mystic Gohan was far more powerful than Super Buu.

It would go like this:
Mystic Gohan>>>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku.

Gohan wins in a forum battle but Goku will kick the shit out him in a real fight.

Originally posted by Galan007
Gohan wins, and easily so.

As evident by their battle, SSJ3 Gotenks was very close to Super Buu's level. Conversely, Goku stated that Super Buu was considerably more powerful than himself--to the point where Goku didn't even try to fight him. This is important because Mystic Gohan was far more powerful than Super Buu.

It would go like this:
Mystic Gohan>>>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku.

Gotenks was also playing around with Buu for most of the fight. When he ramped it up at the end, it became pretty one sided.

Then his SSJ3 fizzled out. Should have used a stopwatch.

Originally posted by cdtm
Gotenks was also playing around with Buu for most of the fight. When he ramped it up at the end, it became pretty one sided.

Then his SSJ3 fizzled out. Should have used a stopwatch. Lol, yeah. Personally I think they were roughly equal because of Piccolo's statement...
SSJ3 Gotenks: "I really hammered . He's gotta be pretty weak now!"
Piccolo: "No... is weakened. Perhaps not physically, but mentally!! He's never fought anyone as strong as you... It unsettles him to think that anyone might be his equal."

I wonder what Goku's power level would be at post Kid Buu fight

As of BoG(5 years after the Buu saga), Beerus stated that base Goku was still weaker than Freeza, but implied that their powers were fairly close. This means Goku's base PL couldn't have been more than 120m(per the Daizenshuu, that was 100% Freeza's canon PL.) So if we high-ball a bit and use 120m as our starting point, it's relatively easy to come up with some fairly accurate PLs for all of Goku's transformations:
Base Goku=120m
SSJ Goku(50*base)=6b
SSJ2 Goku(2*SSJ)=12b
SSJ3 Goku(4*SSJ2)=48b
(m=million, b=billion.)

Originally posted by Galan007
As of BoG, base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. This means his base PL can't be more than 120m(per the Daizenshuu, that was 100% Freeza's canon PL.) So if we go on the high-end, and use 120m as our starting point, then it's relatively easy to come up with some fairly accurate PLs for all of his transformations:
Base Goku=120m
SSJ Goku(50*base)=6b
SSJ2 Goku(2*SSJ)=12b
SSJ3 Goku(4*SSJ2)=48b
(m=million, b=billion.)


the math is baseless

Baseless?

I used Freeza's canon PL of 120m as a starting point, because Beerus implied that Goku was nearly on par with Freeza, but still a bit weaker. I then applied the canon Super Saiyan multipliers to said base PL, in order to come up with his transformed PLs.

Are they 100% spot-on? No. Do they give us a fairly accurate estimate? Absolutely.

In the time between end of series and BOTG, how much stronger could Goku have gotten?

Enough to match Super Buu?

Originally posted by cdtm
In the time between end of series and BOTG, how much stronger could Goku have gotten?

Enough to match Super Buu? Hard to say, as we really have no clue how extensively Goku trained during that 5 year span of time. However, it was outright stated multiple times that SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were insurmountably beyond SSJ3 Goku during the Buu-saga. That said, it's hard for me to imagine Goku bridging that much of a power gap in a relatively short amount of time--especially given that zenkai-boosts went away after the Namek-arc... But who knows? Stranger things have happened. /shrug

Originally posted by chasedown
the math is baseless

Galan's math is beyond reproach, you would be wise not to question this...boy.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Galan's math is beyond reproach, you would be wise not to question this...boy. Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Galan's math is beyond reproach, you would be wise not to question this...boy. i think goku will win here

Originally posted by naurtoisbeast
i think goku will win here

In a forum fight yes. In a real fight, no.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hard to say, as we really have no clue how extensively Goku trained during that 5 year span of time. However, it was outright stated multiple times that SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were insurmountably beyond SSJ3 Goku during the Buu-saga. That said, it's hard for me to imagine Goku bridging that much of a power gap in a relatively short amount of time--especially given that zenkai-boosts went away after the Namek-arc... But who knows? Stranger things have happened. /shrug

Going from not even SSJ1 to being well beyond Goku's FPSSJ could be seen as an insurmountable gab and Gohan did it in a day! Or rather a year. But really a day. Ok a year, but still imagine what 5 years could do!

Originally posted by Galan007
Only 60m at base, huh? Interesting.
It also has Yakon at 800,000,000; which would make one Kili equal a power level of one million. It's simple to the point where I can imagine Akira Toriyama actually having this in the back of his head while writing this scene.

Originally posted by Astner
It also has Yakon at 800,000,000; which would make one Kili equal a power level of one million. It's simple to the point where I can imagine Akira Toriyama actually having this in the back of his head while writing this scene. Ahh, the guide isn't canon then.

Per V-Jump(which is of equal canonicity as the Daizenshuu), 1 kili=50,000PL:
http://i.imgur.com/Z8ZsdGq.jpg

So Yakon's kili rating of 800 would've gleaned him a canon PL of 40m.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ahh, the guide isn't canon then.

Per V-Jump(which is of equal canonicity as the Daizenshuu), 1 kili=50,000PL:
http://i.imgur.com/Z8ZsdGq.jpg
I honestly have no idea what role secondary sources play in regards to canon for Dragon Ball.

But that questions and answers isn't an interview or anything like that, in fact it doesn't even mention Akira Toriyama.

Originally posted by Galan007
So Yakon's kili rating of 800 would've gleaned him a canon PL of 40m.
But that would also mean that Super Saiyan Goku had a power level of 150,000,000 in the Buu saga, which makes absolutely no sense.

Unless Goku just threw on the first, raw form and not the more advanced forms he gained later. I mean Akira did say Goku hasn't been training his base form which would increase his overall power, it could explain why that form was at equal power, as he would only increase his strength if he amps his base self.. /shrugs

Originally posted by BloodRain
Unless Goku just threw on the first, raw form and not the more advanced forms he gained later. I mean Akira did say Goku hasn't been training his base form which would increase his overall power, it could explain why that form was at equal power, as he would only increase his strength if he amps his base self.. /shrugs
The problem with that reasoning is that it's not supported by any official sources and it outright contradicts the fiftyfold increase established in the in the Daizenshū.

The idea that Goku in his base grew from 3,000,000 at the end of the Frieza arc to 60,000,000 in the Buu arc would make sense. After all, Goku relied on the Kai-oken to fight Frieza. It would also put him in beneath full-power Freiza reinforcing Beerus' claim.

The V-Jump QnA really threw me off-guard, but I'd probably reject it on the premise that Akira Toriyama wasn't involved with it.

But doesn't the 60m come from the same page listing Yakon as 800m? That's far too high for someone that was losing out to base Goku.

*Looks at scan*

I'll just pretend I'm not the only one in this thread who can't read Japanese. ^_^

Originally posted by Astner
The problem with that reasoning is that it's not supported by any official sources and it outright contradicts the fiftyfold increase established in the in the Daizenshū.

The idea that Goku in his base grew from 3,000,000 at the end of the Frieza arc to 60,000,000 in the Buu arc would make sense. After all, Goku relied on the Kai-oken to fight Frieza. It would also put him in beneath full-power Freiza reinforcing Beerus' claim.

The V-Jump QnA really threw me off-guard, but I'd probably reject it on the premise that Akira Toriyama wasn't involved with it.

Ginyu only got, what, 20k out of base Goku.

Assumed that's because he didn't know the Kaio Ken.

Anyways, post scouter power level sources are usually taken with a grain of salt. Even the ones from Akira himself don't always add up.

Originally posted by BloodRain
But doesn't the 60m come from the same page listing Yakon as 800m? That's far too high for someone that was losing out to base Goku.
Yakon wasn't losing, Goku just managed to evade his blow before he decided to turn Super Saiyan; and Yakon was surprised by Goku's ability to dodge him while blinded. I don't necessarily think that's indicative of that he's stronger.

Originally posted by cdtm
Ginyu only got, what, 20k out of base Goku.

Assume that's because he didn't know the Kaio Ken.
At Kaio-ken Goku hit 180,000 meaning that his base power level was 90,000.

Originally posted by Astner
I honestly have no idea what role secondary sources play in regards to canon for Dragon Ball. V-Jump is a canon DBZ source--same as the Daizenshuu. Heck, most new DBZ-related info is mentioned in V-Jump before ANY other source. Toriyama himself has been interviewed for the book several times over the last few decades. Here is one such interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf7UYj_AX6M

It, like the Daizenshuu, is as canon as the manga itself.

Originally posted by Astner
But that questions and answers isn't an interview or anything like that, in fact it doesn't even mention Akira Toriyama. Doesn't matter. A question was posed, and the publishers gave an official/canon answer in a canon book. 1 kili=50,000PL.

Originally posted by Astner
But that would also mean that Super Saiyan Goku had a power level of 150,000,000 in the Buu saga, which makes absolutely no sense. Goku hadn't even powered up at all in his SSJ state when that kili rating was given. That was just his base SSJ power--definitely not his maximum. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku hadn't even powered up at all in his SSJ state when that kili rating was given. That was just his base SSJ power--definitely not his maximum. /shrug
That's actually a plausible explanation.

^"Unless Goku just threw on the first, raw form and not the more advanced forms he gained later.
Originally posted by Astner
Yakon wasn't losing, Goku just managed to evade his blow before he decided to turn Super Saiyan; and Yakon was surprised by Goku's ability to dodge him while blinded. I don't necessarily think that's indicative of that he's stronger. I barely saw Goku put in an effort with that fight, and to do the same without sight? With a tenfold difference? Its just a bit off imo.

Daizenshuu might be canon, but practically they're only good as a reference. There's stuff that blatantly contradicts the manga, like Nappa's pl being 4,000, or pre SSJ Gotenks being weaker then Vegeta.

Of course, Toriyama interviews are another story, although personally I even take his post manga statements with a grain of salt. I know if I completed a work and I was bugged for details after the fact, I might just toss out whatever to get them off my back/appease the fans.

Call it George Lucas syndrome.

Originally posted by cdtm
Daizenshuu might be canon, but practically they're only good as a reference. There's stuff that blatantly contradicts the manga, like Nappa's pl being 4,000, Care to elaborate on how Nappa's PL being 4,000 contradicts the manga?

Moreover, that PL wasn't just given in the Daizenshuu. It was also listed in Weekly Shōnen Jump and the SEG.

Originally posted by cdtm
pre SSJ Gotenks being weaker then Vegeta. Here's the actual quote...

Well, Gotenks first successful fusion happened before the room training. Piccolo knew Vegeta's power level, and seemed pretty impressed by a non SSJ Gotenks. (Not to mention, that's when 'Tenks pulled the most impressive speed feat in the manga, far eclipsing anything Vegeta or Goku did sans teleport.)

As for Nappa, Goku claimed it would take him all day to beat Nappa (Without using the Kaio Ken), which implies a greater pl then 4,000.

On power levels in general:

Vegeta "Surpassing Goku" AND Gohan throws a big monkey wrench into raw power levels.

Without even achieving a SSJ status change. Makes you wonder if gamma radiation glows gold in Z, what with Vegeta getting madder = getting stronger then the numbers/training period/form/ say he should.

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, Gotenks first successful fusion happened before the room training. Piccolo knew Vegeta's power level, and seemed pretty impressed by a non SSJ Gotenks. (Not to mention, that's when 'Tenks pulled the most impressive speed feat in the manga, far eclipsing anything Vegeta or Goku did sans teleport.) When base Gotenks was first formed, he arrogantly went off to fight Fat Buu... He returned on the very next page, battered/bruised/broken, and stated: "I didn't do so good." Even SSJ2 Vegeta was able to hold Buu off longer than that.

Also, Piccolo wasn't too terribly impressed by base Gotenks initially...
Base Gotenks: "This is enough to beat Boo!"
Piccolo: "You fool!! You know nothing about Boo!! You may be powerful--but scarcely enough to defeat him!!"

*Also, it was SSJ Gotenks who preformed that globe-circling speed feat--not base Gotenks.

Originally posted by cdtm
As for Nappa, Goku claimed it would take him all day to beat Nappa (Without using the Kaio Ken), which implies a greater pl then 4,000. Goku's exact line was: "This could take forever." Obviously that statement is nothing but hyperbole, as no battle can literally last 'forever'.

Anyway, Nappa freaked the hell out when he was told that Goku's PL ~8,000... That reaction, coupled with Goku easily countering, blocking, and tanking everything Nappa could dish out(even his most powerful attack), is suggestive of a vast difference existing between their respective PLs. Suffice to say: a PL of 4,000 for Nappa doesn't contradict anything we saw, imo.

Aside from that, three different guidebooks confirm that his PL was 4,000(I can post them if you'd like)... It's pretty hard to argue against multiple canon sources. /shrug

Goku had the upper hand, but not as much as you'd think at over twice Nappa's base strength.

Vegeta was tearing through fights with much less of a ki advantage.

Did Nappa focus his ki in the manga, like he did in the anime? (If he did, one could nitpick that as a bit of an internal contradiction, because Vegeta established he only learned how to raise and lower ki from Earth.)

Off topic, but are there stats given for Ten in the Cell saga, and how much his Shin Kikoho (Or tri beam, or whatever it's called these days) could output?

Ten couldn't hurt Cell, but he could knock him back, AND he shot down an attack from BuuTenks. so what could he do with a Kaio Ken? SSJ ballpark level attack?

Heh, and imagine if a real SSJ knew his Shin KiKoHo. Forget the final flash, Vegeta just pops out four or five of those..

Originally posted by cdtm
Goku had the upper hand, but not as much as you'd think at over twice Nappa's base strength. You should check out their battle again, because Goku did have a massive advantage. Not only was Nappa unable to lay so much as a finger on him, but Goku also didn't even bother to avoid one of Nappa's powered-up/enraged energy attacks from striking him head-on:
http://i.imgur.com/MW70gOo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7CaCM3c.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DoUTcYq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/j9bYpJN.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
Vegeta was tearing through fights with much less of a ki advantage.Yeah, but Vegeta always fought to kill back then--Goku has never fought like that(not even against Freeza.) Had Goku wanted to kill Nappa from the get-go, I think we'd have seen a much swifter victory.

Originally posted by cdtm
Did Nappa focus his ki in the manga, like he did in the anime? (If he did, one could nitpick that as a bit of an internal contradiction, because Vegeta established he only learned how to raise and lower ki from Earth.) Both Nappa and Vegeta were able to power up during the Saiyan Saga, if that's what you're asking..?

Nappa:
http://i.imgur.com/6eYKPBs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TARR7Xw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q6duvjE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vsXOyfU.jpg

Vegeta:
http://i.imgur.com/6HrW8Gx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xcy7cOW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/md3RJuB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hl6YDE6.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
Off topic, but are there stats given for Ten in the Cell saga, and how much his Shin Kikoho (Or tri beam, or whatever it's called these days) could output? No PLs were given after the Freeza saga, but Ten was logically in the low millions at most during the Cell saga.

As for Ten's attack: Roshi himself stated that even the Kamehameha is "dog piss" in comparison to the Shin Kikoho, which makes sense because the latter doesn't drain its user's ki--it drains their life-force.

Originally posted by Astner
Yakon wasn't losing, Goku just managed to evade his blow before he decided to turn Super Saiyan; and Yakon was surprised by Goku's ability to dodge him while blinded. I don't necessarily think that's indicative of that he's stronger.


At Kaio-ken Goku hit 180,000 meaning that his base power level was 90,000.

That's assuming a base Kaio Ken, isn't it?

How do we know he didn't use a KK x3 from 60,000? It was a prolonged power up.

^ The Daizenshuu has Goku's base PL at 90,000 when he arrived on Namek.

Originally posted by Galan007
Baseless?

I used Freeza's canon PL of 120m as a starting point, because Beerus implied that Goku was nearly on par with Freeza, but still a bit weaker. I then applied the canon Super Saiyan multipliers to said base PL, in order to come up with his transformed PLs.

Are they 100% spot-on? No. Do they give us a fairly accurate estimate? Absolutely.

Was Beerus implying Goku not powered up was on par? Because he can also increase his power like he did to showcase in front of Ginyu right?

Was always wondering about Beerus's statement.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Was Beerus implying Goku not powered up was on par? Because he can also increase his power like he did to showcase in front of Ginyu right?

Was always wondering about Beerus's statement.

Yep.

Don't know why everyone likes to act like that's a definitive feat from Frieza, when Bills wouldn't know in the first place because Goku was specifically suppressing his ki to hide from Bills.

Originally posted by Galan007
Gohan wins, and easily so.

As evident by their battle, SSJ3 Gotenks was very close to Super Buu's level. Conversely, Goku stated that Super Buu was considerably more powerful than himself--to the point where Goku didn't even try to fight him. This is important because Mystic Gohan was far more powerful than Super Buu.

It would go like this:
Mystic Gohan>>>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku.

Indeed.