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Battle takes place on the Death star

Could be something of a stalemate, not sure. I think skill is even but Fisto is definitely faster.

Fisto probably.

Kenobi did well against ANH Vader. It might be much more clear after a few seasons of "Rebles".

The problem is, Fisto is too fast for both Vader and Old Kenobi. If not, I would say Old Kenobi due to his dueling skills since Fisto's shi-cho is not suitable for lightsaber to lightsaber combat as well.

Definitely Old Ben. He was Vader's equal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Definitely Old Ben. He was Vader's equal.

And what makes Vader is so good at dueling ?

lol

I'm with Old Ben

I don't see how Ben Kenobi can win against Fisto while he is clearly inferior to his TCW and RotS versions.

''When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves. Neither has fought another lightsaber-wielder for many years. Kenobi is an older man, and Vader is a cyborg crippled by the lingering pain of the injuries that make his life-support suit necessary.''


---Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber


"You can keep the droid. He seems to want you to. I'll think of something to tell my uncle-I hope," he added forlornly. "I need your help, Luke," Kenobi explained, his manner a combination of sadness and steel. "I'm getting too old for this kind of thing. Can't trust myself to finish it properly on my own. This mission is far too important." He nodded toward Artoo Detoo. "You heard and saw the message."

---Source: ANH Novelization


''But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.''

---Source: Death Star

Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I don't see how Ben Kenobi can win against Fisto while he is clearly inferior to his TCW and RotS versions.

''When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves. Neither has fought another lightsaber-wielder for many years. Kenobi is an older man, and Vader is a cyborg crippled by the lingering pain of the injuries that make his life-support suit necessary.''


---Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber
Isn't that the same source that says Vader improved a lot between ANH and ESB?

I am not sure tbh maybe his lightsaber technique yeah, but comic book says nothing about improving.

Personally, I don't believe that any version of Vader ever become close to TCW / RotS Anakin's dueling skills nor TCW / RotS Obi-Wan's. And this would be consistent with Lucas's explanations about ''Prime'' Era as well.

Originally posted by Marco1907



"You can keep the droid. He seems to want you to. I'll think of something to tell my uncle-I hope," he added forlornly. "I need your help, Luke," Kenobi explained, his manner a combination of sadness and steel. "I'm getting too old for this kind of thing. Can't trust myself to finish it properly on my own. This mission is far too important." He nodded toward Artoo Detoo. "You heard and saw the message."

---Source: ANH Novelization



That's Ben just manipulating Luke. If you quote the actual fight in the novel then they both say they've grown since their last meeting.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's Ben just manipulating Luke. If you quote the actual fight in the novel then they both say they've grown since their last meeting.
Or they were using dun moch and inverse dun moch. Such as ''If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.''

Anyways, Lucas's statement should be the determined factor then. Which is both of them are not in their prime.

Originally posted by Marco1907


Anyways, Lucas's statement should be the determined factor then. Which is both of them are not in their prime.

Lucas said it's a "harder" fight for them because they're older. But he never commented on if it's a worse performance by them now.

And I'm pretty sure that was before he had Dooku coming along being like almost 30 years older than Old Ben but as Powerful, Energetic and Skilled Swordsman as they come. Count Dooku kinda revamps the idea that Old Ben isn't good because he's old. Heck Old Ben is only 3 years older than ROTS Windu.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And what makes Vader is so good at dueling ?

Besides the fact that he's defeated numerous Jedi in lightsabre duels?

Anyway Ben wins this. Kit's technique is fundamentally weak against single, elite foes (this can be compensated for but it's still there) and he doesn't have Vader's strength or precision so Ben can certainly weather his attacks. Also, unlike Vader, Kit is very reckless and would probably leave himself open to a quick riposte.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas said it's a "harder" fight for them because they're older. But he never commented on if it's a worse performance by them now.

And I'm pretty sure that was before he had Dooku coming along being like almost 30 years older than Old Ben but as Powerful, Energetic and Skilled Swordsman as they come. Count Dooku kinda revamps the idea that Old Ben isn't good because he's old. Heck Old Ben is only 3 years older than ROTS Windu.

Precisely.

One could argue that Ben's physicality was diminished by years in a harsh desert environment and the effects of old war injuries catching up with him, but simply being older should not suffice, as shown by Yoda and Dooku.

His physicality was still enough even in his old age, to tank
Vader's much stronger onslaught. Ben takes this in a good fight

Originally posted by carthage
His physicality was still enough even in his old age, to tank
Vader's much stronger onslaught. Ben takes this in a good fight I think Fisto is a different threat from Vader, though, and at least if not slightly more skilled than him during ANH. He was above AotC Kenobi, and by powerscaling Kenobi's rate of improvement, he will be Qui-Gon level or above after a decade of improvement. Since RotS Old Ben's skill deteriorated, as did Vader's, Vader's such that TPM Darth Maul was comfortably outfighting him.

All in all I see Fisto's comparable if not slightly superior skill, and potentially overwhelming speed being enough to claim victory.

Originally posted by ILS
I think Fisto is a different threat from Vader, though, and at least if not slightly more skilled than him during ANH. He was above AotC Kenobi, and by powerscaling Kenobi's rate of improvement, he will be Qui-Gon level or above after a decade of improvement.

Not really. AotC Kenobi was still fairly early in his career and still had some way to go before he reached his peak. Kit was already a Council Master at that point. He had already hit his peak and was about as good as he would ever get. By RotS, Kenoi had surpassed him by quite a bit.


Originally posted by ILS
Since RotS Old Ben's skill deteriorated, as did Vader's, Vader's such that TPM Darth Maul was comfortably outfighting him.

Ben's skills clearly haven't diminished THAT much, seeing as he was able to hold off Vader. By that point Vader was far more skilled than in his Jedi days due to greater experience and level-headedness. He was slower and less mobile true (which is why he had trouble with the Maul clone), but his technical skill was better than ever.

Originally posted by ILS
All in all I see Fisto's comparable if not slightly superior skill, and potentially overwhelming speed being enough to claim victory.

Nah, I'd still put Ben higher in skill level. Plus Kit's technique isn't enough to breach Ben's defence while his recklessness leaves him open to counters.

Besides the point. Look at the improvement Kenobi showed during three years heading into ROTS. He would have improved at at least a similar rate over the course of a decade after TPM, where he was already quite close to Qui-Gon Jinn.
It doesn't matter one way or the other if Kenobi surpassed Fisto or not. I'm judging how good of a duelist Fisto is based on him being better than AotC Kenobi.
They deteriorated, no matter which way you want to spin it.
Dude, Vader was a "shadow of his former self" during the ANH time period, and he hadn't even began modelling his hybrid form to adjust to his suit by this point. Vader was about a tier and a half below TPM Maul as a duelist at this stage in time and Ben was losing to him. To say Vader is far more skilled than Anakin period is nonsense, never mind during ANH.
I don't see how Ben is more skilled than Fisto. And Fisto has adapted Shii-Cho to work for lightsaber duels, evidenced by him being able to fight Kenobi for hours who was using a dueling-centric form.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Besides the fact that he's defeated numerous Jedi in lightsabre duels?


I know, and none of them was considerably good combatants, or you can correct me if I am wrong, because I don't remember any good duelist that Vader ever defeated. Mostly he beats his opponent because of his durability / armor and TK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas said it's a "harder" fight for them because they're older. But he never commented on if it's a worse performance by them now.

And I'm pretty sure that was before he had Dooku coming along being like almost 30 years older than Old Ben but as Powerful, Energetic and Skilled Swordsman as they come. Count Dooku kinda revamps the idea that Old Ben isn't good because he's old. Heck Old Ben is only 3 years older than ROTS Windu.

I'm not so sure. Lucas stated/confirmed, that Ben and Vader are inferior to Obi-Wan and Anakin as a duelists.

And yeah, that was before AotC. But after TPM, when we can see 60 years old Jinn, who is far from being "an old man". Lucas ****ed SW's timeline in the PT.

Originally posted by McP
I'm not so sure. Lucas stated/confirmed, that Ben and Vader are inferior to Obi-Wan and Anakin as a duelists.

And yeah, that was before AotC. But after TPM, when we can see 60 years old Jinn, who is far from being "an old man". Lucas ****ed SW's timeline in the PT.


Well Jinn was supposed to be past his prime (according to the novel at least), but yeah clearly was still capable.

Looking at ROTS Windu clearly being at his Prime, Qui-Gon being past his prime and ROTS Kenobi clearly not being the most learned in TK yet, I'd guess on average 50ish should be the Prime of the Jedi.

I guess Dooku just hanged on to very close to his prime a lot longer than most. And Yoda/Sidious were just the Ultimate masters of the Force, so weren't effected by age too much.

Either way Old Ben being "too old" just sounds ridiculous now, and makes little/no sense.



Originally posted by ILS
Besides the point. Look at the improvement Kenobi showed during three years heading into ROTS. He would have improved at at least a similar rate over the course of a decade after TPM, where he was already quite close to Qui-Gon Jinn.



Well he's bound to improve more during a war. Otherwise by applying that rate of improvement at any time regardless Old Ben should have been whooping everyone's butt.

We can't just assume a massive improvement over time, or apply an exact formula for it. That's why we take feats and accolades over "assumed" improvements.