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3v2 on neutral ground.

Who wins?

Team 1 imo

An interesting dynamic in this fight I think could be Windu and Tyranus's refinement and experience relative to their opponents. Looking beyond how their skills and power compare from a non-specific set of circumstances, it kinda seems like Tyranus and Windu would be the ones controlling the fight here.

Team 1, solidly.

Dooku's already shown he can take Opress and Ventress together in a relatively confined area. Obviously Mace would take Maul.

So yeah, team 1 solidly.

Yea, probably team 1, though the situation is complex enough team 2 may get the odd win.

Lol.

Team 2 wins. Put Ventress or Maul against Mace by himself, and then pair the other with Savage against Dooku and team 2 has effectively won the match. Dooku will go down whilst Ventress or Maul have an extremely close fight with Mace that won't be ending sooner than Dooku falls to the duo. IIRC there was a source from somewhere stating Dooku would have lost against Ventress and Savage in the end but I'm not sure where it's from or if it truly exists. In any case, it's the truth.

On the contrary the Official Site makes it clear that Dooku's Sith powers gave him the edge over his former apprentices. Another part of the site states they were no match for him.

One quote said he was powerful enough to survive, and then another said he was too powerful for them and then it became a three way fight. To me this implies that Dooku was powerful enough to stave them off and escape, but not enough to defeat them both. And that he survived mainly because Savage turned on Ventress.

Dooku dies. Windu wins.

Assuming it's dooku vs. opress and ventress and Mace vs. Maul, team 1 wins. Dooku is capable of defeating the duo, and Mace takes down maul. Whilst maul probably has the power advantage, mace has the advantage in terms of saber feats and accolades. maul's power advantage wont be enough to ragdoll Mace, so it would come down to a contest of blades.

Team 1 3 ragingpzycho.. That'z good force mace. Thiz iz not Jedi dooku zo ---> force power uze directly az offenziv tool = Ventrezz weaknezzez....

team 1
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Originally posted by ILS
One quote said he was powerful enough to survive, and then another said he was too powerful for them and then it became a three way fight. To me this implies that Dooku was powerful enough to stave them off and escape, but not enough to defeat them both. And that he survived mainly because Savage turned on Ventress.


From the Official Site:

Opress's gallery:

Dooku's Sith mastery barely gave him the edge over his former apprentices. Dooku repeatedly blasted Savage with Force lightning, and attack against which the warrior had no defense. Beaten and wounded, Savage's fury overshadwoed his loyalty to Ventress, and he lashed out against her as well. Savage then battered his way to the frigate's hangar, past Ob-Wan and Anakin. The weary warrior had no interest in conquest, just escape.

Ventress's gallery:

But Dooku proved too strong for even their combined efforts -- and Savage finally snapped under the strain of his abusive training, turning his fury on both Dooku and Ventress.

Dooku's bio:

This was not to be, as the Sith Lord was too strong with the dark side and survived the attack.


So pretty much every source confirm that before Opress went into his ultra rage, Dooku was going to beat them both.

After his Ultra Rage there is doubt over how the fight would end, but certainly nothing concrete that Dooku was screwed or anything.

And bear in mind Dooku didn't have much room to spin around, give ground e.t.c., and wasn't even expecting this fight at all! He thought Ventress was dead and Savage his loyal servant.


So yeah I'd give Dooku at least a stalemate against these 2 under any conditions. But under more regular conditions I'd give him the win almost every time.

And we have Mace = Ventrezz flee far way from the battle field, and juzt let zavage get killed, becauz zhe hate him.

Dooku and Mace every single time.

Dooku and Mace for an easy win. Maul cannot hope to defeat any of these guys by himself and either can handle Ventress and Savage.

Dooku and Mace.

I am certain Dooku would die either way. Maul & Savage murderstomps, or stronger version of Savage from S5 & Asajj can beat him.

Nope. S6 Dooku with his Ataru moves mixed with his Makashi mastery would trash S5 Opress and Ventress.

Originally posted by McP
Nope. S6 Dooku with his Ataru moves mixed with his Makashi mastery would trash S5 Opress and Ventress.

Originally posted by McP
Nope. S6 Dooku with his Ataru moves mixed with his Makashi mastery would trash S5 Opress and Ventress.

Dooku had been already at his limit brah. Old geezer doesn't have any room to improve himself.

Savage on the other hand, has grown much stronger in S5, learned ''astonishing'' skills from his brother. Stronger and faster, S5 Savage can basically solo Dooku. By Dooku's own admission, Savage was a threat to himself.

8PY-wcY-C0I

Dooku : I can sense him, Grievous. That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes.
Grievous : You consider him a threat?
Dooku : He is a threat to all of us, even the Jedi. With the Nightsisters eradicated, there is no one left to control him.

Team 1 solidly

Originally posted by Marco1907
Savage on the other hand, has grown much stronger in S5, learned ''astonishing'' skills from his brother. Stronger and faster, S5 Savage can basically solo Dooku. By Dooku's own admission, Savage was a threat to himself.

Stronger and faster? How? S4 Savage was able to compete Kenobi, possibly on almost equal terms. S5 Savage with Maul's aid was wreck by Kenobi.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku had been already at his limit brah. Old geezer doesn't have any room to improve himself.




Yeah but he showed his full mobility in an open arena against S6 Skywalker and Kenobi.

He clearly didn't have room for that kind of mobility when he fought Opress and Ventress, yet still used the limited space to dance around them both.

People need to stop ignoring environments fights are taking place in, as well as circumstances (Dooku was not expecting a fight at all, and certainly not a fight against Opress+Ventress).

Dooku's Pure Saber performance against Kenobi and Skywalker clearly shows matching/defeating Opress+Ventress in a Sabers only fight is certainly not beyond his capabilities. He just needs to be ready, and may require more maneuvering room.


Originally posted by Marco1907
By Dooku's own admission, Savage was a threat to himself.


Dooku : I can sense him, Grievous. That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes.
Grievous : You consider him a threat?
Dooku : He is a threat to all of us, even the Jedi. With the Nightsisters eradicated, there is no one left to control him.


He was worried more about his potential threat. But he never actualized that potential. Dooku also felt "something sinister" coming in that scene when talking about Savage. Of course we know that something sinister was Maul, not Savage.

Fact is the only person Dooku should have been worried about was Skywalker. But he was too arrogant to admit that, which ended up being his downfall.

Originally posted by McP
Stronger and faster? How? S4 Savage was able to compete Kenobi, possibly on almost equal terms. S5 Savage with Maul's aid was wreck by Kenobi.

That was inconsistent and one time thing, in normal circumstances Kenobi and Savage are equal fighters. Kenobi used a tactical mind against Savage, he used the same spot where Adi Gallia hit before. Without death of Adi Gallia, that PIS would never happened, Kenobi is not even using Jar'Kai in first place, he used Gallia's sword, and calling it ''wreck'' is hilarious considering the fact that Obi-Wan was helpless about Adi Gallia's death. So your feeble attempt to lowball Savage is useless on this matter, Savage has enough offensive strength to be a threat to Dooku. You need to compare their styles, using ABC logic is a stupid thing to do here. For example, Obi-Wan always sucks against Dooku, but better against Anakin, same with Savage, Savage is better against Dooku but sucks with Obi-Wan.

So, accept it or not, Savage is canonically more powerful in S4 and S5, that is why he can be a bigger threat to Dooku.

Originally posted by Marco1907
That was inconsistent and one time thing, in normal circumstances Kenobi and Savage are equal fighters.

I'd say it's far more likely that Savage one shot flooring Dooku was the One-Off and Inconsistent Instance.


Originally posted by Marco1907
So, accept it or not, Savage is canonically more powerful in S4 and S5, that is why he can be a bigger threat to Dooku.

How's that canon? Filoni states the vast majority of Savage's power is from that amp the Nightsisters gave him, and that he had hardly any training.

So if he's grown more powerful by S4/S5 it's by a minute amount.

Dooku was talking of Opress's Potential Threat.

It seems like the majority is underestimate Savage because of Florrum battle, which he even defeated Adi Gallia there.

S4 Savage already defeated Obi-Wan Kenobi with his brother's help, disarmed Asajj Ventress and also defeated Plo Koon, defeating Dooku in only sabers is not an impossible thing to accomplish for Savage. Not to mention S5 Savage Opress puts up a better fight than Kit Fisto against Sidious which is even more impressive.

Originally posted by Marco1907
It seems like the majority is underestimate Savage because of Florrum battle, which he even defeated Adi Gallia there.

S4 Savage already defeated Obi-Wan Kenobi with his brother's help, disarmed Asajj Ventress and also defeated Plo Koon, defeating Dooku in only sabers is not an impossible thing to accomplish for Savage. Not to mention S5 Savage Opress puts up a better fight than Kit Fisto against Sidious which is even more impressive.


None of these people you're mentioning are comparable to Count Dooku though. Not to mention Kenobi was taken by surprise by S4 Savage (on top of him being outnumbered). Ventress was also not able to use her usual Jar Kai style against Opress.

You keep saying the Florrum battle was a one-off. But at least that was a long battle with many blocks, parries e.t.c. Whilst you keep judging Dooku on 1 damn strike that put Dooku in a bad position. Despite the fact that an unarmed Dooku was able to evade both Opress and Ventress, so he'd clearly have little-no trouble against Opress alone. He could just dodge/dance around him all day until he hits him.

The Florrum battle wasn't a one-off. His duel against Maul is another example. And I said that Kenobi wrecked Opress, not both brothers. Maul is actually equal duelist to Kenobi, and both are superior to Opress.
Kenobi was loosing to them on Florrum, but Savage did far too much mistakes.

Originally posted by McP
The Florrum battle wasn't a one-off. His duel against Maul is another example. And I said that Kenobi wrecked Opress, not both brothers. Maul is actually equal duelist to Kenobi, and both are superior to Opress.
Kenobi was loosing to them on Florrum, but Savage did far too much mistakes.

Except that Savage actually defeated Adi Gallia and take a small wound on his left knee before that duel. Savage and Obi-Wan are comparable duelists imo but Obi-Wan is a little better, and Maul is a little better than Kenobi as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You keep saying the Florrum battle was a one-off. But at least that was a long battle with many blocks, parries e.t.c. Whilst you keep judging Dooku on 1 damn strike that put Dooku in a bad position.

I will tell you why Florrum is one-time ;

1- Kenobi was in a very desperate situation and amped due to Adi Gallia's death
2- Kenobi was using Jar'Kai, which is very unfamiliar style for him
3- Kenobi was using an aggressive style, which is very unfamiliar again and that surprised the brothers
4- They were fighting in a very confined space, that was a disadvantage for brothers
5- Darth Maul also underestimated Kenobi there because of 2 v 1
6- Kenobi was still losing he used a ''tactical mind'' and hit the same spot which Adi Gallia hit before, he only won via that last hit to Savage's left knee.
7- We've also another example about Maul & Savage vs. Kenobi from last episode of Season 4, where that the brothers easily stomped Kenobi in a normal circumstance.

Can you say the same things about Savage vs. Dooku battle ? That is why it is one-time thing while Dooku vs. Savage is not.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I will tell you why Florrum is one-time ;

1- Kenobi was in a very desperate situation
2- Kenobi was using Jar'Kai, which is very unfamiliar style for him
3- Kenobi was using an aggressive style, which is very unfamiliar again and that surprised the brothers
4- They were fighting in a very confined space, that was a disadvantage for brothers
5- Darth Maul also underestimated Kenobi there because of 2 v 1
6- Kenobi was still losing he used a ''tactical mind'' and hit the same spot which Adi Gallia hit before, he only won via that last hit to Savage's left knee.
7- We've also another example about Maul & Savage vs. Kenobi from last episode of Season 4, where that the brothers easily stomped Kenobi


Before I address all this, let's get straight what you're arguing here.. You arguing that Kenobi battering Opress in Sabers was a One-Off, or that Kenobi besting Maul+Opress was a one off? Because if it's the latter I'll agree with you, but not the former.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Can you say the same things about Savage vs. Dooku battle ? That is why it is one-time thing while Dooku vs. Savage is not.


It was One damn strike you keep going on about. Not an extensive 1 v 1 with Maul followed by a 2 v 1 against Maul+Opress outside, and another 2 v 1 against the Duo in the cave!

Dooku was fighting 2 opponents, and was evading both their blows unarmed. So tell me how Opress even managing to lay a hit on Dooku wasn't a One-Off?

In fact their training session in the same damn episode proved Opress 1 v 1 can't lay a proper blow on Dooku. So explain to me again how that 1 Damn strike was Not a One-Off?

Actually, not only one strike, Savage used some Jar'Kai skills before that heavy stroke, I can't ignore Savage's skills here ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/4055316-gfhgfh_zps6lcdpase.gif

He is not attacking blindly you see, he is turning his blade with some skill. Otherwise Dooku would disarm him just like he did with untrained Savage.

Originally posted by McP
Nope. S6 Dooku with his Ataru moves mixed with his Makashi mastery would trash S5 Opress and Ventress.

Dooku was at a massive disadvantage in that tiny room.

Yhea.... He cannot keep hiz diztance whil dodging....

Remember than Windu vaapad have a lot of kinetical power, and it a way fazter and more overwealming than oprezz heavy ztyle.. And doooku beat windu...

If you look with a zlow motion he keep hiz guard on until he hurt the wall...

"Obi-Wan picked up Adi Gallia's fallen lightsaber and fended off the Sith brothers. Savage's inexperience proved costly as Obi-Wan was able to sever the Sith apprentice's arm."

^
Source?

http://www.starwars.com/

^ Sounds like the Official Site.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Actually, not only one strike, Savage used some Jar'Kai skills before that heavy stroke,

I'm not sure what your counter argument is here. It was the 1 hit Savage landed the whole 2 on 1 fight. Apart from that neither Ventress nor Opress were able to even touch Dooku for the duration of the 2 v 1 fight (before the rage enhanced choke).

So you're claiming that wasn't a One-Off because Savage showed a bit of combat skill? You want me to show you the level of skill Kenobi showed against Maul and Opress? Or Dooku's skill against Anakin and Obi-Wan on Oba diah? Now those are some real examples skill that can not be denied.

Dooku like mozt of the form II mazterz, iz train to not be dizarmed by a form I mazter.

Me I'm more holonet in my head... If you really know the Holonet mentality you could be really great encylopedian like me (even if I have to admit I'm zome time too lazy to uze my knowledge...)