Kit Fisto vs Jedi Dooku

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WildBantha88
Who wins?

Marco1907
Dooku with ease due to shii-cho's weakness.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Dooku god stomps.

Trocity
Dooku

|King Joker|
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Dooku god stomps.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku with ease due to shii-cho's weakness. Kit also wields ataru with high level of skill. That shi chos weakness is not evident in his style

ILS
Dooku would only take a solid victory because of Shii-Cho's inherent weakness to Makashi. Skilfully speaking Fisto isn't as out of his depth as some people like to convince themselves.

Nephthys
Dooku.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Dooku takes a very solid victory with sabers only. Add the force? Ouch...

Marco1907
Dooku is not ''god-stomping'' Lol. That is why I said Dooku is the most overrated PT character in KMC.

Even with that shii-cho weakness, Fisto is one of the best in the order, and one of the fastest Jedi in the Order as well. He should hold his own everytime, it would be easy for Dooku due to shii-cho but really ''god stomp'' is not happening.

DarthAnt66
All that matters here is Revan beats both of them. Move along.

WildBantha88
I believe kit has mostly gotten past shi chos weakness. If he hasn't then there is no reason that he beat Kenobi or Grievous. Plus his style is a mix of shi cho and ataru

Marco1907
Originally posted by WildBantha88
I believe kit has mostly gotten past shi chos weakness. If he hasn't then there is no reason that he beat Kenobi or Grievous. Plus his style is a mix of shi cho and ataru

Except he never beat Kenobi. Kenobi just admit that he is better swordfighter not duelist, Fisto didn't even win that sparring match, we don't know what would happen if they would actually fight. They seem as equals against Ventress, and Kenobi managed to cut Ventress with some help later.

Not to mention Fisto actually admit that Kenobi is better duelist than himself in RotS. But that was for a better Kenobi so it is not valid for AotC.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
AotC kenobi isn't all that impressive in the grand scheme of things (ala when comparing him to beings on the level of Tyranus,) and beating grevious was from a style advantage, not a hindrance.

ILS
Isn't really a fair comparison when Kenobi was still using Ataru as an offence at that time, which Dooku knows every weakness of, and Kenobi was fatigued before the fight even started from the battle at the petranaki.

Using power scaling from the rate of which Kenobi has been shown to improve, he should be above Qui-Gon after ten years of time to improve, which is enough in terms of raw skill not to be destroyed by someone like Dooku, ergo Fisto being better than Kenobi at this time makes him close enough to Dooku. Fisto isn't short of accolades at his peak, either.

Marco1907
That's a fair point on Dooku's knowledge about Ataru, and AotC Kenobi lacks knowledge about Makashi as well, and he wasn't still experienced as Qui-Gon, I still wouldn't put AotC Kenobi over Qui-Gon, not to mention Dooku himself said he would expect better than Qui-Gon's former apprentice. Which means Qui-Gon could do better than AotC Kenobi against Dooku at that time.

Emperordmb
Dooku wins this one. Neither Grievous nor Kenobi were at their peaks when Fisto fought them, and as a Jedi, Dooku's skill was at the top with Yoda and Windu.

NewGuy01
There is no source depicting Kit as an Ataru practitioner, Bantha. And while I agree Kit is very effective against opponents both singular and multiple, Shii-Cho is still inherently weak against the ultraprecision of Makashi; Form II was designed to counter Form I, after all. This weakness was showcased in his battle against Ventress.

And even without that, Dooku is still one of the big three--Kit can contend, but is ultimately outmatched. That, along with the first point, spells a stomp for Fisto.

DarthAnt66
Malak>Dooku tbh.

Emperordmb
Star Forge Malak or unamped?

DarthAnt66
Star Forge.

WildBantha88
Except kit using Jar Kai which means kit knows either ataru or niman

Emperordmb
Not necessarily. But either way, form weakness aside, Dooku is still above Fisto as a force user and duelist.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is not ''god-stomping'' Lol. That is why I said Dooku is the most overrated PT character in KMC.




No he's not. Even as a Jedi he was part of the elite 3 with Yoda and Mace. No other Jedi could defeat any of those elite 3 until Skywalker came along.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he's not. Even as a Jedi he was part of the elite 3 with Yoda and Mace. No other Jedi could defeat any of those elite 3 until Skywalker came along.

Savage Opress defeated Dooku in sabers. And Obi-Wan defeated Skywalker, Obi-Wan should be there too with these elites according to your logic.

I am not sure about Grievous, but I heard from somewhere that Grievous gave hard time to Dooku in sabers sometimes.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Marco1907
Savage Opress defeated Dooku in sabers. And Obi-Wan defeated Skywalker, Obi-Wan should be there too with these elites according to your logic.
Marco, he said "when Dooku was a Jedi" I can guarantee you, Dooku would wreck Anakin, Obi-wan, and Savage all at once at that point in time.

Marco1907
True.

DARTH POWER
^ Yes Dooku as a Jedi was Younger, Stronger and would have better stamina. But he will lack FL which can add a nice punch to physical beats like Skywalker or Opress.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Savage Opress defeated Dooku in sabers.

No he didn't. Flooring does not equate defeating. If it does then Dooku "defeated" Skywalker in ROTS before Skywalker defeated him.

And fighting Dooku in succession one after the other with Ventress does not equate to fighting him in his own. Dooku is after all an old man, who will have limits to his stamina, when dancing around 2


Originally posted by Marco1907
And Obi-Wan defeated Skywalker, Obi-Wan should be there too with these elites according to your logic.


No, it just means Kenobi is capable of competing with Skywalker whilst Skywalker is capable of competing with 2 of the elite 3. Doesn't mean Kenobi can compete with any of the elite 3.




Originally posted by Marco1907
I am not sure about Grievous, but I heard from somewhere that Grievous gave hard time to Dooku in sabers sometimes.


Giving someone a tough time is different to actually defeating them.

Revanchiste
I like the fight cool mind, control of the force control of fight, keeping your mind clear againzt leeting you be guided by the force.

The eternal fight Revan prefer the firzt zolution, but find the zecond great if you include zome little modification in the ztate of minde becauze againzt form 1 or VII pratitionneur or againzt multiple opponent (if he act az a warrior or fighter) the zecond opton iz clearly the bezt....

Concluzion neither of the two option are the bezt better have the two... But here in dueling that'z the firzt option that iz the bezt...

Jedi dooku iz the winner.

McP
Dooku stomps.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Savage Opress defeated Dooku in sabers.

No, he didn't. He had Ventress, to support him. And, Dooku wasn't prepared for a duel against Opress and Ventress.

Opress actually stomped Kenobi, when Kenobi was taken by surprise, and a bit distracted by Maul's presence.
But when Kenobi was ready for a fight, he stomped Opress (who had his brother on his side).

Originally posted by Marco1907
I am not sure about Grievous, but I heard from somewhere that Grievous gave hard time to Dooku in sabers sometimes.

That was from LoE (my fav book from SW universe btw). And in that book, Mace had even harder time against Grievous then Dooku.

Marco1907
So, Savage lost to Kenobi but failed to beat Dooku ? Nice logic McP. Very objective.

Disarming your opponent = auto win. Savage did that Dooku while Asajj was already lying on the floor. Not to mention, Asajj and Savage don't have any kind of teamwork at all.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is not ''god-stomping'' Lol. That is why I said Dooku is the most overrated PT character in KMC.

Even with that shii-cho weakness, Fisto is one of the best in the order, and one of the fastest Jedi in the Order as well. He should hold his own everytime, it would be easy for Dooku due to shii-cho but really ''god stomp'' is not happening.

Jedi Dooku regularly defeated Mace Windu in sparring. He's not overrated.

Marco1907
*sigh

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Revanchiste
I like the fight cool mind, control of the force control of fight, keeping your mind clear againzt leeting you be guided by the force.

The eternal fight Revan prefer the firzt zolution, but find the zecond great if you include zome little modification in the ztate of minde becauze againzt form 1 or VII pratitionneur or againzt multiple opponent (if he act az a warrior or fighter) the zecond opton iz clearly the bezt....

Concluzion neither of the two option are the bezt better have the two... But here in dueling that'z the firzt option that iz the bezt...

Jedi dooku iz the winner.

DOez I'm the only one concerned about the mental warefare here?

Yhea Dooku defeat windu in dueling ---> becauz makazhi mind zet better than form I/VII mind zet in dueling.

Revanchiste
There iz at the golden era clear technic of anti dizarming devlopped by form I/II duelizt.... ZO it doezn't count here.... Dooku have face many opponent uzing kitenical energy, and win.... Ezpecialy againzt form I mazter...

McP
Originally posted by Marco1907
So, Savage lost to Kenobi but failed to beat Dooku ? Nice logic McP. Very objective.

Yep. Dooku was temporary disarmed and thrown on the ground, but a moment later he was able to evade Opress' any single strike, without saber in his own hand.
Kenobi was defeated by Opress in S4, because - unlike Dooku - he wasn't able to recover after being hit by Opress. But yeah, without Maul's intervention... who knows.

And one last thing: Opress powers are exaggerated in S3 and retconed in S4 and S5.

Marco1907
That is why I said ''In sabers''. Not in whole, he was going to lose no matter what without his force powers.

Dooku himself said Savage has grown stronger in S4 and also he is a threat, so...

McP
Yeah, that's why his powers were retconed.

In S3 he overhelmed Dooku and Ventress in some way, and was a match for Anakin and Obi-Wan duo.
In S4 he became stronger cannonicaly, but was much weaker on the screen. Ventress, who - just like Dooku - couldn't parry his blows in S3, could do it in S4.
In S5 it's a logical to assume, that he was even stronger under Maul's trening, but he was stomped by Maul, stopmed By Kenobi, stomped by Sidious and even Adi gave him a fight. And only her lack of physical stamina/strenght and raw-power in the Force led her to her death. After all, she was capable of parrying his blows.

As you see, his powers were far exaggerated in S3. And Dooku is a victim of that stupid idea.

Marco1907
Adi Gallia, as a council member should be good. (except Coleman) She stalemated with Grievous, and stomped Aurra Sing with the force. She would give a fight to Dooku too.

Ventress already disarmed by Savage in S4 so she was losing as well, and no, Ventress is physically stronger than Dooku, but that doesn't mean she can use her physical advantage against Dooku. Very few can use this physical advantage, Savage is one of them.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


Disarming your opponent = auto win.


So I guess Dooku already won here at 1:13 right?

Hx4m6lvpgKY

And this was a 1 v 1. You're talking about a 2 v 1 where even disarmed, neither opponent was even capable of touching Dooku.

Marco1907
Hmm... Because Anakin managed to pull his saber in time ? I don't remember Dooku doing the same against Savage, instead he shoots force lightning. That was the same thing with Mace vs. Sidious, Mace disarmed Sidious and that's an auto win.

As for Dooku - Asajj comparison, Asajj has much better physical condition than old geezer Dooku and she defeated pre-transform Opress, Krismo Sodi in a H2H combat, Asajj's physical abilities shouldn't be underestimated.

NewGuy01
Except that's not an auto-win, because Mace fvcking died.

Aurbere
Being disarmed could be an auto-win, but not for most Force users.

I underlined the important part.

McP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S2bY8JY5Fk
1:37

S3 Savage is able to throws Dooku and Ventress away just with his saber blows. Then he becomes even stronger in S4, but is unable to fight like before. That means, that his powers were retconed.

S3 Savage is far stronger then S4 and S5 on the screen.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Hmm... Because Anakin managed to pull his saber in time ? I don't remember Dooku doing the same against Savage, instead he shoots force lightning. That was the same thing with Mace vs. Sidious, Mace disarmed Sidious and that's an auto win.



Maybe because Skywalker doesn't have any damn FL, and wasn't Powerful enough to TK Dooku so was Forced to go get his Lightsaber back straight away.

It's not the only example. Ventress disarms Kenobi in TCW movie, yet Kenobi just embarasses her after that, dodging ALL her blows until he gets his Saber back, and then proceeds to beat her. Dooku could have done THE EXACT SAME THING against Savage without his FL/TK, especially in a 1 V 1.

Sidious completely lost his weapon against Mace. Dooku didn't against Savage, given he uses it against Ventress later. Just because Dooku Tk'd Savage away doesn't mean he had no other option. He showed a few seconds later in fact that he can dodge both Savage and Ventress unarmed.

You're being very closed minded with this "Savage floored Dooku" thing. I've noticed when you make up your mind about something you won't shift it At All, no matter what evidence and arguments are presented to you.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Revanchiste
There iz at the golden era clear technic of anti dizarming devlopped by form I/II duelizt.... ZO it doezn't count here.... Dooku have face many opponent uzing kitenical energy, and win.... Ezpecialy againzt form I mazter...

No dizarming...

DARTH POWER
There you go @ 1:30, and it's your own video so you clearly know the fight Marco:

cNiB1tk0wvo

So clearly being disarmed is NOT an Autowin. Kenobi was able to evade Ventress's strikes until he could get his Saber back. IF Kenobi could utilize Tk/FL against Ventress effectively, he likely would have gone for that option when he was disarmed instead because it's easier. Doesn't mean he was screwed without FL/Tk as we saw in the video.

Same with when Skywalker was floored and disarmed by Dooku. Being floored isn't the best position to be in, and being disarmed is something to worry about, but it's clearly not the all and end all, as long as your Saber is still lying around somewhere.

And considering Dooku was able to evade Opress's and Ventress's strikes one after the other, he'd have no problem against Opress alone.

Marco1907
Obi-Wan : ''Now I am impressed''

Sure you can call it a win for Ventress's part. Then Obi-Wan disarms Ventress's one blade in the end, she escapes so for that escape we can call it a one win for Obi-Wan as well, 1 - 1 , it is a good stalemate.

On the other hand Dooku never disarmed, or somehow defeated Savage in sabers at that fight. He just used his force powers.

Originally posted by McP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S2bY8JY5Fk
1:37

S3 Savage is able to throws Dooku and Ventress away just with his saber blows. Then he becomes even stronger in S4, but is unable to fight like before. That means, that his powers were retconed.

S3 Savage is far stronger then S4 and S5 on the screen.

Savage never throwed Ventress with sabers, he used the force to do it there.

As I said before, Asajj is physically stronger than Dooku, so your ABC comparison on this matter is make no sense. Dooku is faster and more skilled than Asajj, but Asajj is physically stronger, that is why Savage can't throw Asajj just that ease.

There is no retcon, and Savage is more powerful in S4 by Dooku's own statement, your denial on this matter is pathetic thing to do for Dooku fanboyism.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Obi-Wan : ''Now I am impressed''

Sure you can call it a win for Ventress's part. Then Obi-Wan disarms Ventress's one blade in the end, she escapes so for that escape we can call it a one win for Obi-Wan as well, 1 - 1 , it is a good stalemate.


Well they both got good hits on each other, sure. But it's clearly not an Auto-Win, because if it was Kenobi would never have got the chance to even the odds. Auto-Win means the Saber fight is over.

But both Anakin and Obi-Wan proved in TCW movie that being disarmed of their weapon does not make the Saber fight won or finished. As long as their Saber is still in 1 piece, in the vicinity and not with your opponent. In other words as long as they can still use it again, which obviously Dooku could as he used it against Ventress again.

Originally posted by Marco1907
On the other hand Dooku never disarmed, or somehow defeated Savage in sabers at that fight. He just used his force powers.




Dooku using his superior force powers to hold Savage at bay while he bests Ventress in Sabers shouldn't be used as any kind of evidence to judge Dooku's Saber prowess next to Opress's. Not at all.

If Kenobi and Skywalker were outnumbered when they got disarmed, and had superior force powers to hold their second opponent at bay, you can bet they would have resorted to similar tactics.

Revanchiste
There iz 4 kind of approach in term of light zaber fighthing ztyle
Form I/VII approach :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuXdVxjSABk&list=UUm7imB9QanTySN-Lfae0SIQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=683
Form II appraoch :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL14E48361CD4C0B5A&v=Rh--fgseTlc&feature=player_detailpage#t=158
Kenobi and many golden era Jedi approach ---> the application of the zame method again and again.. Method leading to he victory, a very conziztent ztyle.
Exar Kun/Grievouz approach....


We are with Form I appraoch againzt form II approach combined with the third apporach...

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
Obi-Wan : ''Now I am impressed''

Sure you can call it a win for Ventress's part. Then Obi-Wan disarms Ventress's one blade in the end, she escapes so for that escape we can call it a one win for Obi-Wan as well, 1 - 1 , it is a good stalemate.

On the other hand Dooku never disarmed, or somehow defeated Savage in sabers at that fight. He just used his force powers.



Savage never throwed Ventress with sabers, he used the force to do it there.

As I said before, Asajj is physically stronger than Dooku, so your ABC comparison on this matter is make no sense. Dooku is faster and more skilled than Asajj, but Asajj is physically stronger, that is why Savage can't throw Asajj just that ease.

There is no retcon, and Savage is more powerful in S4 by Dooku's own statement, your denial on this matter is pathetic thing to do for Dooku fanboyism.

Ventress is not stronger than Dooku in anything. Ventress couldn't hold back Kenobi and Skywalker in a saber lock with one hand.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ventress is not stronger than Dooku in anything. Ventress couldn't hold back Kenobi and Skywalker in a saber lock with one hand.

That's the most ridiculous answer I've ever heard on this matter. Asajj already blocked Kenobi and Skywalker's blade at the same time more than once. Even though that means nothing,

PtO1U79HSqo

1- Obi-Wan and Anakin sucks at teamwork
2- Anakin always fails to use his full strength at 2 v 1 due to mobility weakness of Djem-So, that is why Anakin always did better against Dooku in 1 v 1.

Here is your ridiculous ''strength'' criteria

.http://i.hizliresim.com/ZAL08g.jpg

And if you think Dooku can beat pre-transform Savage in a H2H combat only, then you are simply dreaming,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0npapMYNSvI

Krismo Sodi, he is pretty good at H2H as well ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iLo1UAEnumo#t=38
Ventress is better H2H combat fighter than old geezer Dooku, actually many young Jedi are.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ventress is not stronger than Dooku in anything. Ventress couldn't hold back Kenobi and Skywalker in a saber lock with one hand.

Dooku did have elevation and good positioning in that case, while the Duo had extremely poor positions and leverage.

Revanchiste
Mental warfare iz more important.
Acting with a 6th zenz, guided by the force and emotionz... Againzt clazzic preco cool mind with tactical ingeniouzity....

Mental iz important dude !!!

Dooku kick ventrezz azz for zure, and he have alzo hiz force power to dow her eazly, byt we are with Jedi dooku who'z actualy more fair...

Revanchiste
Ha you are alwayz on the dizarming thing? Well thing a part of form II/IV training (remember Jar'kai = form IV.)

But your juzt forget than dizarming an opponent iz quazi impozzible at the golden era between great duelizt?


It waz on holonet the part on the Jedi voccabulary...

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
That's the most ridiculous answer I've ever heard on this matter. Asajj already blocked Kenobi and Skywalker's blade at the same time more than once. Even though that means nothing,

PtO1U79HSqo

1- Obi-Wan and Anakin sucks at teamwork
2- Anakin always fails to use his full strength at 2 v 1 due to mobility weakness of Djem-So, that is why Anakin always did better against Dooku in 1 v 1.

Here is your ridiculous ''strength'' criteria

.http://i.hizliresim.com/ZAL08g.jpg

And if you think Dooku can beat pre-transform Savage in a H2H combat only, then you are simply dreaming,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0npapMYNSvI

Krismo Sodi, he is pretty good at H2H as well ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iLo1UAEnumo#t=38
Ventress is better H2H combat fighter than old geezer Dooku, actually many young Jedi are.

I said with one hand genius. Ventress blocking one of them with one hand isn't impressive.

Also this argument is tiresome and has virtually Ventress is no where near Dooku even in H2H. Dooku's fought with the likes of Yoda and Skywalker, if he doesn't underestimate Savage he will not get disarmed by him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku did have elevation and good positioning in that case, while the Duo had extremely poor positions and leverage.

I suppose, but going toe to toe with Skywalker period is no small feat considering he's been noted to have monstrous strength by many sources.

Revanchiste

DarthAnt66
RIP KMC.

Revanchiste

Lord Stark
The level of debate on these forums has deteriorated, the fact that posters legitimately think that Dooku who's held saberlocks with "Whirlwind of Destruction" Yoda is weaker than Ventress is unreal.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Lord Stark
The level of debate on these forums has deteriorated, the fact that posters legitimately think that Dooku who's held saberlocks with "Whirlwind of Destruction" Yoda is weaker than Ventress is unreal.

thumb up You get it Stark.

Aurbere
So... Dooku's victory should be unanimously supported, right?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Stark
The level of debate on these forums has deteriorated, the fact that posters legitimately think that Dooku who's held saberlocks with "Whirlwind of Destruction" Yoda is weaker than Ventress is unreal.

I do agree with you, but I do think people need to differentiate between "Physical" strength and "Force Enhanced" strength.

Skywalker is "physically" stronger than Dooku, but Dooku can hold him off with "Force Enhanced" strength.

Sidious can reach through the Force to get in a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined, but that doesn't make his average strike equal to that of Maul and Opress's combined due to the brothers having immense "Physical" strength which is always there whether they reach through the Force or not.

Revanchiste

Revanchiste
I have to had than this is like Vader weakness --> Lightning. Vader have counter mesure.. If your lightning is not super powerfull -->Dooku/malgus lightning.
You won't be able to exploit this weakness....

Dooku have counter mesure to compensate his weakness but if you are some kind of malgus.... You can exploit this weakness....

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Revanchiste


Yhea but Like plagueis say, it is an hudge waste of stamina.... That's why yoda loose in RotS....


True say with the Force enhanced abilities using up Force reserves.

But I still hold by Yoda vs Sidious being a stalemate. Yoda did run, but it's not like Sidious was chasing him.

Revanchiste
There is also force physichal resitance enhancement it's named protection in JKA. It Require focus. Revan invent a technic, to regain systematicaly the stamina waste after disativating the boost. It allow him to use them with parcymony... It's a part of Form II and form V philosophy. In his djem so (he devlop djem before he realise than he have a betetr potential in shien.) using force speed at briev moment, to counter attack and strik with speed and precision.
But the problem of not using light saber + enhance abilities is the greatest problem of form 0 and Revan reborn's niman especialy foundry revan, inconsistant, great lack of light saber technic, leave the user exposed....

But we are with the Youg dooku he have a lot more of stamina and strengh, but less force enhancement abilities....

Don't forget it.

And also don't forget the 6th sens :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dOXkI0PKweM#t=53
Typical of form I/VII praticioners, very devlopped.
If you take Revan, windu or Yoda they fully cappble of doing the same....

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Marco1907
Disarming your opponent = auto win.

That makes no sense at all.

Watch "Highlander" (both movies and TV series). Both Connor and Duncan got disarmed several times in various duels and still managed to emerge the victor, generally by using makeshift weapons and/or unarmed combat skills to fend off their opponent until they could retrieve their swords.

And they aren't even Jedi, the people who can easily retrieve a dropped weapon by just calling it back to their hand with their minds.

So no, disarming the opponent is in no way an "auto-win."

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by chilled monkey
That makes no sense at all.

Watch "Highlander" (both movies and TV series). Both Connor and Duncan got disarmed several times in various duels and still managed to emerge the victor, generally by using makeshift weapons and/or unarmed combat skills to fend off their opponent until they could retrieve their swords.

And they aren't even Jedi, the people who can easily retrieve a dropped weapon by just calling it back to their hand with their minds.

So no, disarming the opponent is in no way an "auto-win."


Agreed. We even have a few examples of it not being the end of the fight in SW Canon.

It's obviously the superior position to be in having disarmed your opponents weapon. But it's not over at all. Especially not when your Lightsaber is still around in the vicinity and in working order.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark


I suppose, but going toe to toe with Skywalker period is no small feat considering he's been noted to have monstrous strength by many sources.

Nope, it means only Dooku's weakness, Kenobi did the same longer than Dooku and even defeated Skywalker. Skywalker's strength also means nothing to the likes of Savage or Maul, he would need to use his skills to defeat them. Which means he has a better chance against Dooku than he has against Kenobi, Maul, Savage etc.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
I said with one hand genius. Ventress blocking one of them with one hand isn't impressive.

Also this argument is tiresome and has virtually Ventress is no where near Dooku even in H2H. Dooku's fought with the likes of Yoda and Skywalker, if he doesn't underestimate Savage he will not get disarmed by him.


Lmfao. Ventress can do that shit as just as easy. You are overrating Dooku on something that never happened, did Ventress try to blocking them with one hand and failed ? No, it never happened. So wtf are you blabbing on ? Not to mention that has nothing to do with strength, it is just about good positioning and balance.

Ventress stomps Dooku in a pure H2H Combat only, you need to understand that guy's powerset before trying to defend him, Dooku's power comes from his experience and his knowledge of the force, not his physical abilities. He is a 83 years old geezer. And he doesn't even have the same force potential which Yoda and Sidious has. His full potential is at the same level with Ventress or even inferior.

But if you have any H2H Combat only feat for Dooku, let me see it. I doubt that Dooku has any strength or H2H combat feat to compare him with even Ventress. Dooku is a pure duelist / fencer and a very capable force user that's all, not a warrior.

Revanchiste
Technicaly zome character are zuper powerfull but don't have much opportunity to expoze there zkillz, zo feat are often meaninglezz... And zome character run at 260% or are boozted with artifact etc when they perform their feat...

I hate feat feat.. I prefer focuz on pure technicaly abilitiez and the way where they employ their zkill...

Kit Fizto iz not oprezz, he don't have enough kinetical power to dizarm dooku. And form II iz devlopped to counter form I !!! Thiz include anti-dizarming technicz... And you are with a dooku lezz good in force enhancement but that compenzate by hiz youger age zo... ztop with taht zhit pleaze !!!! You hit my heart deeply !!!!

Thiz like malguz V.Z vader yhea but malguz have lightning and zidiouz iz able to blablabla... But Malguz iz not zidiouz.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Nope, it means only Dooku's weakness,



Dude what weakness? He blocks Skywalker's 2 handed bashes with 1 hand:


Originally posted by DARTH POWER


at 2:34 here:

Xhys5CPFB_I

Skywalker bashes on Dooku's blade 3 times when he's on the floor, yet can not disarm him, and Dooku holds the blade lock 1 Handed no-less. That's why Skywalker resorts to grabbing Dooku's neck. So there clearly isn't any kind of Major Weakness to the Kinetic energy of Skywalker's blade there.



Originally posted by Marco1907
Kenobi did the same longer than Dooku and even defeated Skywalker.


Probably because Kenobi is less than half Dooku's age so will clearly have better stamina. Not to mention Kenobi didn't tire himself out fighting 2 Jedi first. So Has nothing to do with a form weakness.

And FYI that ABOVE fight's actually how I see a 1 v 1 going between Dooku and Sith Anakin. Dooku's Lightning compensates for any kind of physical advantage Skywalker gets.

DARTH POWER
Holy repeated sentences Batman.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Marco1907
Nope, it means only Dooku's weakness, Kenobi did the same longer than Dooku and even defeated Skywalker. Skywalker's strength also means nothing to the likes of Savage or Maul, he would need to use his skills to defeat them. Which means he has a better chance against Dooku than he has against Kenobi, Maul, Savage etc.

Anakin is far stronger than Maul or Savage. Kenobi masters a form that focuses on defense. He was able to hold off Savage and Maul in a saberlock.



Nah not really. Ventress consistently gets overwhelmed by serious Skywalker alone. And before you cite that ridiculous one off showing of her fending off the duo, she was on the defensive the whole time.



No she doesn't. Dooku's force enhanced strength allows him to exchange blows with Yoda. Ventress would go down in one hit.




Are you serious? H2H combat is a part of basic Jedi training. His force enhanced speed and strength is greater than Ventress and to top it all off he has way longer reach.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anakin is far stronger than Maul or Savage. Kenobi masters a form that focuses on defense. He was able to hold off Savage and Maul in a saberlock.


Can you explain to me why Anakin get ragdolled by Savage Opress here ? If he is stronger than Maul or Savage ?

dmbMZyvdYtM

Anakin is not at another strength tier than Obi-Wan, he is just using his strength properly at offense, unlike the defensive fighter Obi-Wan. That is the sole reason why Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan at Mustafar. Because they are close in terms of physical abilities.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/047/9/f/anakin_vs_obi_wan_gif_by_cryptidgirl13-d4pyrzl.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark

Nah not really. Ventress consistently gets overwhelmed by serious Skywalker alone. And before you cite that ridiculous one off showing of her fending off the duo, she was on the defensive the whole time.



No she doesn't. Dooku's force enhanced strength allows him to exchange blows with Yoda. Ventress would go down in one hit.




Are you serious? H2H combat is a part of basic Jedi training. His force enhanced speed and strength is greater than Ventress and to top it all off he has way longer reach.

Same Ventress maimed Anakin's eye, so yeah he get trouble with Asajj.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711173508/starwars/images/f/f0/Anakin_maimed.jpg

For example, Mace simply stomped Asajj while Anakin get a scar from her, he also stalemated with Asajj in TCW as well.

Dooku's force potential is no where near at Yoda's or Sidious's level, not to mention Dooku is even older than Sidious. Dooku's force reserve is very limited, that is why his strength is also limited.

Old geezer Dooku can't fight in H2H combat against any young Jedi, or you can prove it otherwise with H2H combat feat from Old Dooku or any sole strength / durability feat, but I don't think Dooku has comparable feats to even Ventress.

Revanchiste
Anakin iz no ztronger than maul... Mauk iz a zabrak....
Anakin O.K he have abz but he ztill human...

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


Old geezer Dooku can't fight in H2H combat against any young Jedi, or you can prove it otherwise with H2H combat feat from Old Dooku or any sole strength / durability feat, but I don't think Dooku has comparable feats to even Ventress.


Who cares about H2H when all the fights are Saber fights? And we've seen who gets the most lethal Physical attacks in Saber fights. It's almost always Dooku.

Kick floors Ventress twice in the Ventress/Opress vs Dooku fight.

Almost kicks Kenobi off the ledge, then wrecks his stomach in on Oba Diah.

Slam Kicks Skywalker against a wall a few meters away leaving him floored and helpless for a good 10 seconds in ROTS.


There's one time when Skywalker floored him with a kick, and one time Opress floored him physically, and both times the "physical" superiors payed for it with a good does of Force Lightning.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Can you explain to me why Anakin get ragdolled by Savage Opress here ? If he is stronger than Maul or Savage ?




Wait he got "physically" ragdolled? I didn't see that.

Just because Skywalker's fighting defensively alongside Kenobi against a Rage Enhanced Opress doesn't mean he's not as strong as Savage.

Not to mention Skywalker grew tremendously in power since then.

Marco1907
Dooku lacks H2H Combat and physical strength, but yeah it is unnecessary for his level telekinetic, especially since he is using force lightning as well. But that is only a problem against offensive physical fighters such as Anakin, Savage and Maul. That is his only weakness.


And Dooku's kicks are part of his sword play, that is not a martial art.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Wait he got "physically" ragdolled? I didn't see that.

Just because Skywalker's fighting defensively alongside Kenobi against a Rage Enhanced Opress doesn't mean he's not as strong as Savage.

Not to mention Skywalker grew tremendously in power since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dmbMZyvdYtM#t=39

Savage simply defeated Anakin in a physical contest here, and there was no force rage either.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


Anakin is not at another strength tier than Obi-Wan, he is just using his strength properly at offense, unlike the defensive fighter Obi-Wan. That is the sole reason why Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan at Mustafar. Because they are close in terms of physical abilities.




So you missed the part where Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards, and where Skywalker is physically choking Kenobi.

Jeez even if you don't buy that Skywalker has tremendous Raw Power, mentioned in depth and in detail in the ROTS Novel, surely you must understand he has a Cyborg Arm so is obviously "Physically" stronger than Kenobi!

It is beyond me how you keep quoting this One line from ROTS taking it completely out of context about Dooku apparently being "weak" to kinetic energy, yet completely ignore the paragraphs upon paragraphs describing just how much Immense Raw Power and Physical Strength Skywalker has, mentioned in the Same Damn Fight NO LESS.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dmbMZyvdYtM#t=39

Savage simply defeated Anakin in a physical contest here, and there was no force rage either.


We don't know if that was purely physical or had an element of Tk to it. He does shout as he does that. I would suggest when they go flying like that it's probably Tk as well, given that Kenobi gets into an equal blade lock with both Maul and Opress in "Revival."

Also Opress will be physically stronger than Skywalker (even with his Cyborg arm), but add Force enhanced strength and Skywalker can match him. Without a doubt.

Skywalker didn't get Force back by Kenobi the way Opress did. In fact it was Skywalker who kept forcing Kenobi backwards.

Marco1907
@DP

Did you see Anakin vs. Clovis H2H combat battle ? After watching that, I feel like Savage or Maul would stomp Anakin in a H2H combat.

Anakin was also helpless against one Gundark, while Mace was capable of fighting against two.

Sidious - Mace - Maul - Savage, these are the most powerful physical fighters so far imo.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DP

Did you see Anakin vs. Clovis H2H combat battle ? After watching that, I feel like Savage or Maul would stomp Anakin in a H2H combat.


Are you serious? He wasn't using any Force enhanced strength for that fight. He was making it a fair punch up.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Anakin was also helpless against one Gundark, while Mace was capable of fighting against two.

When was this? Show the scenes please. I'm sure there's context.

Anakin beat an IG-88 model droid in H2H. That's a frigging Assassin droid and he bashed it all up in "Hostage Crisis."

Originally posted by Marco1907
Sidious - Mace - Maul - Savage, these are the most powerful physical fighters so far imo.

If you're including Sidious then you're clearly talking "Force enhanced" strength on top of physical strength. In that case Anakin > Windu. Seen as Dooku has fought Windu without any problem, but couldn't handle the Immense Raw Power of Skywalker.

And wait is that in order? In which case you've put Maul above Savage in physical strength? Are you serious?

Marco1907
Did you read my respect thread ? You can see there that Spider Monster Maul's strength is good as Savage's strength.

As for Gundark Comparison ;

Anakin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixa25h-_FUI

Mace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaP0C5IqGYw

DARTH POWER
And yet Maul can't over power Kenobi? And Skywalker Forces Kenobi back. Maul doesn't.

Windu lands some good hits on the Gundarks. Of course that could be him putting Shatterpoint to good use. Also That was early Clone Wars Skywalker. He became a lot more powerful later on.

But it can't be denied that Skywalker's strength was beyond what Dooku could handle. Windu's never was.

Marco1907
Better, Maul overpowered force raged TCW Kenobi, when he enraged him with dun moch about Qui-Gon's death.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/maul%20vs%20obi-wan_zpsi3mhrjeu.gif

Also here, disarms his lightsaber with ease.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/maul%20force%20choke%20pull_zps0hpajwpr.gif

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Marco1907
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dmbMZyvdYtM#t=39

Savage simply defeated Anakin in a physical contest here, and there was no force rage either.

Humhum.. Zavage conztantly uze force rage but for zure he can pazz through anakin guard without uzing force rage but that'z only theory...

Zometimez reading thiz can engerder bad effectz --->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9FHa_bNxXVo#t=545
Like thiz for example !!!

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Better, Maul overpowered force raged TCW Kenobi, when he enraged him with dun moch about Qui-Gon's death.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/maul%20vs%20obi-wan_zpsi3mhrjeu.gif

Also here, disarms his lightsaber with ease.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/maul%20force%20choke%20pull_zps0hpajwpr.gif

So your evidence is to show me 1 instance of Maul overpowering an unbalanced Kenobi and 1 instance of Maul overpowering a Kenobi with a concussion?

Yeah, no. Skywalker wins the strength contest based on their fights with Kenobi.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So your evidence is to show me 1 instance of Maul overpowering an unbalanced Kenobi and 1 instance of Maul overpowering a Kenobi with a concussion?

Yeah, no. Skywalker wins the strength contest based on their fights with Kenobi.

Reading that = zuicide.. You may kill your zelf after..

Marco1907
Kenobi overpowered Skywalker time to time too. They were completely matched.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/obi-wan%20anakin_zpsizvx1pnw.gif

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Revanchiste
Reading that = zuicide.. You may kill your zelf after.. okay, can you stop replacing S's with z's. Its killing my brain

NewGuy01
So Anakin being kicked in the face constitutes as Kenobi physical strength overpowering his own? Give me a break.

"Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad."

-Revenge of the Sith

DarthAnt66
Gotta love Kenobi. Death is knocking at his door and he is just going "This is bad."

Marco1907
Originally posted by NewGuy01
So Anakin being kicked in the face constitutes as Kenobi physical strength overpowering his own? Give me a break.


Well, according to DP it is, because Kenobi managed to kick Maul a couple times.

Anyways, I believe this is a good example about Kenobi and Skywalker's strength difference.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/obi-wan%20vs%20anakin_zps5zywu08v.gif

Marco1907
Kenobi vs. Maul

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/maul%20physically%20stomps_zpsgffkhnch.gif
-
http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/maul%20physically%20stomps%202_zpsr8gqmhfb.gif
-
Matches with Bruu-Jun Fan's strength

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-TheCloneWars-TheSithHunters071_zpsd9b3afa4.jpg

Matches with Vader's strength

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsTales09-038_zps43a57ec5.jpg

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, according to DP it is, because Kenobi managed to kick Maul a couple times. hey, kicking is Mauls thing!

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Marco1907
Kenobi vs. Maul

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/maul%20physically%20stomps_zpsgffkhnch.gif

That was after the fact that Maul and Savage ambushed Kenobi and knocked him unconscious, no doubt he'd be disoriented and hurt erm

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, according to DP it is, because Kenobi managed to kick Maul a couple times.


When did I mention kicks?

I said Anakin drove Kenobi backwards to a much greater extent than Maul ever did. That's because Anakin's tremendous raw power (and Cyborg arm) makes him much stronger than Kenobi. And stronger than Maul for that matter.

The extract from the novel that Newguy quoted is proof of that, on top of many many other examples from the novel. Including how Dooku was just in complete Awe of Skywalker's strength and raw power.

Honestly Marco, the "proofs" your providing here are pretty lame. Proofs including Kenobi recovering from a previous concussion and Anakin/Obi-Wan holding each others arms. after both tiring from a long drawn out fight.

Skywalker was the one who was Driving Kenobi backwards most the fight, and Skywalker the one who had Kenobi in a choke which Kenobi couldn't break with his Strength alone.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Marco1907
Did you read my respect thread ? You can see there that Spider Monster Maul's strength is good as Savage's strength.

As for Gundark Comparison ;

Anakin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixa25h-_FUI

Mace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaP0C5IqGYw

WIndu iz more direct...

But If I take Darth Revan V.Z Gundak holy zhit Poor gundak... Revan anihilate an army of rancor XD.
Why windu don't uze the force to uze hiz environement intead of waiting hiz light zaber which are notr eally decide to moove hiz azz from the hand of the cultizt? And why kenobi iz waiting?

Bazed on their phyzical and not feat (becauze ztrengh can be influented by the uze of force ztrenhg enhancement...) Maul have the edge becauze he iz a well trained zabrak...
Phyzical ztrengh iz more ztable.... Wher total ztrengh iz not a fix valor.. Zo feat are meaninglezz....

Impediment
Revanchiste, stop spamming with repeated lines.

WildBantha88
Revanchiste i can't remember the last time you said something that was actually a good point. I feel like you should think before posting a response because then I might start taking you seriously.

P.s. stap replacing S with Z

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I do agree with you, but I do think people need to differentiate between "Physical" strength and "Force Enhanced" strength.


What! (Lol) Not in the context of a duel.

Force enhanced strength is usually what determines a force users physical strength, assuming they have been taught and know how to utilize it in combat, or how well they can use it. Even a Zabrak force user such as Maul relies on the force for their physical strength, especially when fighting another force user. Maul even muses that, despite his increase of power, he found himself in awe of Sidious's saber prowess. In that context, Maul was referring to his own force enhanced physicality being greater than before. Their unaided force strength is hardly relevant in duels, other than giving some sentient beings somewhat of a head start over other sentient beings. Humans, for instance, don't have natural superhuman physical traits, unless they are force users. Plagueis mentions this to Palpatine during one of his training sessions, suggesting that Palpatine's force potential is the key to all of his superhuman physical abilities, and how well he develops them. In the SW universe, force enhanced physicality is natural for a force user, and it's one of the things that separates them from non- force users.

Is this why you and Arhael argue that Savage is stronger than Sidious? That's simply not true, as evident in their fight. This is due to Sidious's force strength.

DarthAnt66
Force-augmentation is directly based on a person's command of the Force.
One's command of the Force is based on active midchlorians throughout the body.
Midichlorians are the passage way between exterior Force energy and the actual person.

NewGuy01
Not necessarily. There are lesser force users that have more advanced augmentation because of their specialization--it is a skill, as is any other force power.

Though, as a general rule I would agree, the more powerful the Force user the more likely they are to be physically powerful as well, with exceptions.

DarthAnt66
Examples? I never seen lesser force users have more advanced augmentation then greater.
If there is an example, that is inconsistent with lore and shouldn't be taken with a lot of credibility.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not necessarily. There are lesser force users that have more advanced augmentation because of their specialization--it is a skill, as is any other force power.

Though, as a general rule I would agree, the more powerful the Force user the more likely they are to be physically powerful as well, with exceptions.


thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Examples? I never seen lesser force users have more advanced augmentation then greater.
If there is an example, that is inconsistent with lore and shouldn't be taken with a lot of credibility.

NewGuy01
Raskta Lsu was almost certainly faster than say, Valenthyne Farfalla for starters.

DarthAnt66
Not really sure using Drew examples is fair here. He's the guy who said the Force affects and shapes non-Force sensitives path and abilities.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What! (Lol) Not in the context of a duel.

Force enhanced strength is usually what determines a force users physical strength, assuming they have been taught and know how to utilize it in combat, or how well they can use it. Even a Zabrak force user such as Maul relies on the force for their physical strength, especially when fighting another force user. Maul even muses that, despite his increase of power, he found himself in awe of Sidious's saber prowess. In that context, Maul was referring to his own force enhanced physicality being greater than before. Their unaided force strength is hardly relevant in duels, other than giving some sentient beings somewhat of a head start over other sentient beings. Humans, for instance, don't have natural superhuman physical traits, unless they are force users. Plagueis mentions this to Palpatine during one of his training sessions, suggesting that Palpatine's force potential is the key to all of his superhuman physical abilities, and how well he develops them. In the SW universe, force enhanced physicality is natural for a force user, and it's one of the things that separates them from non- force users.

Is this why you and Arhael argue that Savage is stronger than Sidious? That's simply not true, as evident in their fight. This is due to Sidious's force strength.

First I've not argued Opress being stronger than Sidious. In fact Sidious having strength > Opress' s makes perfect sense to me why people like Fisto can't trade more than a few blows with him. Because if it was all down to "speed that makes him invisible to all Jedi except Mace and Yoda" then he wouldn't even block 1 strike.

Second there's a Huge difference between Natural Physical strength and Force enhanced strength.

Natural physical strength is just there all the time. Whilst Force enhanced strength varies depending on how much you have left in your Force reserves and how much you reach through the Force with each strike (on top of how much you are capable of reaching through the Force).

And the examples of this are plenty:

Dooku sends Skywalker flying across the room with a Force enhanced Kick. You think he's THAT Strong with every strike of his?

Ventress gets into a blade lock with Opress from an inferior position. So is she always as Strong as Opress?

Kenobi gets into a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined.. And so on and so forth.

Heck the Shadow Conspiracy novel even specifically notes Sidious reaching through the Force to match Maul and Opress's blade lock. And the ROTS novel makes it very clear about Dooku force reserves wearing down and having to replenish them.

But even when Force reserves are down Opress is still a huge beast and Skywalker still has a Cyborg arm. That's the advantage to "Natural Physical" strength. It's there in spite of Force reserves and how much REACHING one is doing through the Force.

A Wookie Jedi for example would have a natural advantage when it comes to strength.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really sure using Drew examples is fair here. He's the guy who said the Force affects and shapes non-Force sensitives path and abilities. he is also the guy who you pull a lot of your feats from, soooo

DarthAnt66
We are discussing Star Wars in general here... the kind of works Lucas, Dave, and countless other authors have worked on. Not a lone character who Drew personally created (Revan).

Revanchiste
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Revanchiste i can't remember the last time you said something that was actually a good point. I feel like you should think before posting a response because then I might start taking you seriously.

P.s. stap replacing S with Z

I will find a way to inztall my new keyboard.. I will...

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Impediment
Revanchiste, stop spamming with repeated lines.

Where?

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Revanchiste
I will find a way to inztall my new keyboard.. I will... its not your typing. My typing is shit too. You don't have a very good way of conveying your points

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First I've not argued Opress being stronger than Sidious. In fact Sidious having strength > Opress' s makes perfect sense to me why people like Fisto can't trade more than a few blows with him. Because if it was all down to "speed that makes him invisible to all Jedi except Mace and Yoda" then he wouldn't even block 1 strike.

Second there's a Huge difference between Natural Physical strength and Force enhanced strength.

Natural physical strength is just there all the time. Whilst Force enhanced strength varies depending on how much you have left in your Force reserves and how much you reach through the Force with each strike (on top of how much you are capable of reaching through the Force).

And the examples of this are plenty:

Dooku sends Skywalker flying across the room with a Force enhanced Kick. You think he's THAT Strong with every strike of his?

Ventress gets into a blade lock with Opress from an inferior position. So is she always as Strong as Opress?

Kenobi gets into a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined.. And so on and so forth.

Heck the Shadow Conspiracy novel even specifically notes Sidious reaching through the Force to match Maul and Opress's blade lock. And the ROTS novel makes it very clear about Dooku force reserves wearing down and having to replenish them.

But even when Force reserves are down Opress is still a huge beast and Skywalker still has a Cyborg arm. That's the advantage to "Natural Physical" strength. It's there in spite of Force reserves and how much REACHING one is doing through the Force.

A Wookie Jedi for example would have a natural advantage when it comes to strength.


You do realize that all of those examples you used to differentiate force enhanced strength also applies to "natural strength," right? Just think about it. There is a difference, though: force enhancement makes a force user last longer, which means using their force enhanced strength won't tire them out nearly as quick as using their natural strength. That's why they rely on the force a lot more, and to differentiate them in the context of a duel, the way you're suggesting, is silly. I mean, you could if one's "natural strength" gives him an edge, but isn't it just easier in just saying the person is stronger? The advantage of being stronger is there regardless if it comes from, say, being zabrak.

SIDIOUS 66
However, during Sidious's duel with the zabrak bros, the "natural strength" of being zabraks wasn't an advantage for the bros in that duel. Sidious was stronger.

Revanchiste
Zidiouz 6 an elite member (but the problem iz with the canon.... He truzt too much de demonic money bullzit...)

However, during Sidious's duel with the zabrak bros, the "natural strength" of being zabraks wasn't an advantage for the bros in that duel. Sidious was stronger.

Yhea force enhancement can give the edge.. with zidiouz thiz a permanent edge.. But Force enhancement iz a fix valor zo...

Originally posted by Revanchiste
WIndu iz more direct...

But If I take Darth Revan V.Z Gundak holy zhit Poor gundak... Revan anihilate an army of rancor XD.
Why windu don't uze the force to uze hiz environement intead of waiting hiz light zaber which are notr eally decide to moove hiz azz from the hand of the cultizt? And why kenobi iz waiting?

Bazed on their phyzical and not feat (becauze ztrengh can be influented by the uze of force ztrenhg enhancement...) Maul have the edge becauze he iz a well trained zabrak...
Phyzical ztrengh iz more ztable.... Wher total ztrengh iz not a fix valor.. Zo feat are meaninglezz....

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I mean, you could if one's "natural strength" gives him an edge, but isn't it just easier in just saying the person is stronger? The advantage of being stronger is there regardless if it comes from, say, being zabrak.


Because it's not that simple, and there clearly is a difference in strength being "physical" and strength being "force enhanced", otherwise Ventress would never be able to get into a blade lock with Savage Opress from a disadvantageous position.

Clearly what's happening there is he's using more of his "physical" strength, while she's clearly reaching through the Force to block him. That doesn't make her as strong as Opress in general.

Mace Windu was constantly locking blades with Sidious in their fight, yet Darth Maul blocks Windu's 2 handed strike with 1 hand, while kick blitzing Secura.

With your simplistic argument of "there's no difference between Physical and Force Enhanced and A is simply stronger than B whose simply stronger than C" none of the numerous examples I've given would make any sense at all.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, during Sidious's duel with the zabrak bros, the "natural strength" of being zabraks wasn't an advantage for the bros in that duel. Sidious was stronger.


Yes but I'd say the Blade lock Maul and Sidious were in when Sidious overpowered Maul starting from an inferior position is the best example of that.

And not the scene where he temporarily holds off both brothers, which the novel confirms he had to strain and reach Out through the Force to do that.

Revanchiste
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/73/2d/e5/732de56987460dde99d40a9bfc7c75cb.jpg

A matter of canon XDXDXDXDXD !!!

Revanchiste
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SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but I'd say the Blade lock Maul and Sidious were in when Sidious overpowered Maul starting from an inferior position is the best example of that.

And not the scene where he temporarily holds off both brothers, which the novel confirms he had to strain and reach Out through the Force to do that.


You're missing the point. All that matters is Palpatine's force reserves belong to him, and he can enhance his strength at will with it, and while doing so, he is noticeably stronger than the Zabrak bros who also use the force in duels. That he has to strain and draw deeper on the force to overpower and push them back with one arm each, is no different than me straining and using more strength to bench 230 than to bench 180.

Take the force away from both Palpatine and the Zabrak bros, yes Zabraks are far stronger than humans. Hardly irrelevant when Sidious has the force and can more than make up for the difference with it at will.

As for Ventress blade locking with Opress, I don't remember, but it's not uncommon for a weaker person to momentarily hold off the strength of a stronger person, depending on how much effort both are putting in the blade lock. However, we know for a fact that Ventress is no match for Savage's strength: she was being knocked back and unbalanced by the strength of his blows, her physical attacks didn't even tickle him, and she was ragdolled effortlessly. Should I go out of my way to differentiate the strength Savage would possess had he not been amped by Talzin's magic? All that matters is the strength is his. To point out the obvious in a vs. debate is a waste of time and irrelevant, unless they are tapping into powers they normally do not possess to enhance their strength.

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