Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Teams have full teamwork, everyone is willing to kill.

Draw.

Team 1.

Team 1, Kenobi can't carry Savage.

Why would he need carrying?

Aubere just mad cuz Savage suckered Koon

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why would he need carrying?

Aubere just mad cuz Savage suckered Koon



Well, I guess it depends on the setting. My gut says Team 1, though.

Team 1. Maul will finish Kenobi faster than Savage could hope to finish Ventress.

Strange team ups but I'll go with it.

Maul vs Kenobi- Split.

Ventress vs Opress- Split.

Maul vs Opress- Stomp in Maul's favor.

Ventress vs Kenobi- Kenobi solidly.


All Out, anyone fights anyone- Split but more wins for team 1.


Good contest though.

Ventress will be able to hold her own against both Kenobi and Opress. The same can't be told about Savage, who will be stomped by Maul.

Originally posted by Selenial
Team 1.

Maul vs. Kenobi = They are comparable duelists but Maul also has the force advantage, Maul should win a majority.

Savage vs. Ventress = Savage should win, and also he has better force powers.

Kenobi vs. Savage = They are comparable but Kenobi a little better, Savage has bette force powers, this would go either way.

Maul vs. Ventress = Maul should take the dueling 10 / 10 due to makashi's weakness and also superior force powers.

Maul is the MVP here.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul vs. Kenobi = They are comparable duelists but Maul also has the force advantage, Maul should win a majority.

Savage vs. Ventress = Savage should win, and also he has better force powers.

Kenobi vs. Savage = They are comparable but Kenobi a little better, Savage has bette force powers, this would go either way.

Maul vs. Ventress = Maul should take the dueling 10 / 10 due to makashi's weakness and also superior force powers.

Maul is the MVP here.


Agree with most of this except I don't think Kenobi vs Savage is a split tbh. As long as Kenobi fights at his best, he should beat down Opress almost every time. He'll take a few hits from Opress's Force Waves though, but nothing he can't recover from Imho. At best I see Opress's force waves holding Kenobi off for a stalemate, but not beating him.

Also Ventress has got into a full on Saber lock with Opress, so she clearly has no weakness to kinetic energy. But she'll still lose to Maul.

She has better physical than Dooku, but she is not skilled and fast as Dooku as well. Still that is why Opress should beat her for the majority and he already disarmed her in S4, she can make a saber lock and make it harder for Savage to win, but that's all really.

I don't think Kenobi should beat Savage everytime, especially since Savage defeated him with his brothers help in S4, maybe even 8 / 10 but really Savage already won one time against him, and he is not an inferior duelists to Kenobi by feats.

Originally posted by Marco1907


I don't think Kenobi should beat Savage everytime, especially since Savage defeated him with his brothers help in S4,


It was a surprise ambush.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was a surprise ambush.

Still he didn't hit him via surprise at all, he just jump on him from no where, sure Kenobi was not ready to face him but there was no sucker punch at all.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Still he didn't hit him via surprise at all, he just jump on him from no where, sure Kenobi was not ready to face him but there was no sucker punch at all.


I didn't say it was a sucker punch. It was a surprise attack. Obi-Wan even says "you" in a surprised voice, and hardly has a second to think about Opress being there before he starts attacking.

Plus it took both Brothers to KO Kenobi.

As I've explained before being disarmed of your weapon is not an automatic loss (as long as your weapon is still working, and available in the vicinity.

Anyways, I would agree with Kenobi's win over Savage in sabers, but not like 10 / 10,

I agree with 7 / 10 or 8 / 10.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Anyways, I would agree with Kenobi's win over Savage in sabers, but not like 10 / 10,

I agree with 7 / 10 or 8 / 10.





And I can see Savage's Force powers holding Kenobi off.

Originally posted by Marco1907

I don't think Kenobi should beat Savage everytime, especially since Savage defeated him with his brothers help in S4, maybe even 8 / 10 but really Savage already won one time against him, and he is not an inferior duelists to Kenobi by feats.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was a surprise ambush.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Still he didn't hit him via surprise at all, he just jump on him from no where, sure Kenobi was not ready to face him but there was no sucker punch at all.


Also Marco, I can't believe I didn't notice this before, but it was Maul who disarmed Kenobi from behind, not Opress.

Opress knocks him to the floor (even that when Kenobi is trying to see where Maul is), then Maul grabs Kenobi's Saber:

From 0:56-1:00

BNmbtaIZHqo


So no, Opress has never beaten Kenobi.

^
Nope, Kenobi was disarmed with first strike after bladelock, and hit by the hilt of Savage's sword with another strike.

But still, his saber was in a close-range of his hand, so if not Maul's reaction, he would be able to pick up his sword.

Anyway, I'm wondering about one thing: is the fact, that Maul stomped Opress one timed bullshit?

Ventress was able to hold her own against Maul for much longer. Even those random Jedi that Maul and Opress have killed.

Maul stomped Savage on account of his enchanted legs alongside being much more skilled. He wouldn't be able to pin Savage like that with his prosthetic legs. Plus, Savage was somewhat inexperienced at that point. He wasn't quite the version of himself who fought Plo Koon ect.

It was S5 Opress after all.

And Ventress was able to hold her own against Maul with his enchanted legs.

Anyway, I would even say, that Maul's new legs made him superior to his version with those enchanted legs. He was somehow much more agile and much less clumsy.

His prosthetic legs weren't nearly as strong but they allow better maneuverability.

So, your conclusion is that Opress was stupid, wild beast, that was unable to think and adapt during fight?

I don't believe I even hinted at that.

Well, Ventress didin't know Maul, and she was able to adapt. So were those Jedi.

I'm not denying that Maul and Kenobi could defeat Savage with low or medium difficulty. But it's hard for me to believe, that Maul could stomped Savage that hard in normal circumstances.

And it should be noted, that Maul easily took a clear advantage without using his legs. I suspect, that with his new legs he would be able to stomp Savage as easily as before.

Savage after being trained by Maul for a bit, and with the absence of Maul's enchanted legs, would be able to give Maul a good fight. Thing is Savage's strength isn't as big a factor against Maul because Maul himself is pretty strong. Savage's strength would have a larger effect on someone like Ventress. I don't think Kenobi would take out Savage with low difficulty, medium difficult would be the best result for Kenobi.

Originally posted by McP
^
Nope, Kenobi was disarmed with first strike after bladelock, and hit by the hilt of Savage's sword with another strike.

He was actually disarmed right after looking out for Maul.

Originally posted by McP
But still, his saber was in a close-range of his hand, so if not Maul's reaction, he would be able to pick up his sword.

Exactly. So Opress has never defeated Kenobi on his own.


Originally posted by McP
Anyway, I'm wondering about one thing: is the fact, that Maul stomped Opress one timed bullshit?

Nah. It was legit. Look at how Dooku manhandled Opress in their sparring session. Contrary to common belief, Opress never grew much through his training. He hardly had any training from either Dooku or Maul.

Originally posted by McP
Ventress was able to hold her own against Maul for much longer. Even those random Jedi that Maul and Opress have killed.


That was when Maul was just revived. I'd take Opress over Maul in "Revenge."

Still you're right. I don't see Maul taking out Ventress anywhere near that quickly. It's a clash of style. Ventress could hold her own against Maul for a while through skill. Skill that Opress doesn't have. But that doesn't mean Ventress > Opress or anything. She would really struggle against his strength. And when you add in Opress's monstrous TK she'd defo go down IMO.

@DP
Agree with everything.

Originally posted by ILS
and with the absence of Maul's enchanted legs

Which doesn't matter. Please, watch this once again. Savage was defeated even before Maul used his legs.

Originally posted by McP


Ventress was able to hold her own against Maul for much longer. Even those random Jedi that Maul and Opress have killed.

Maul has grown more powerful between S4 and S5, that was S4 Maul, S4 Maul can't stomp Savage either, they would just match good.

Originally posted by ILS
Thing is Savage's strength isn't as big a factor against Maul because Maul himself is pretty strong. Savage's strength would have a larger effect on someone like Ventress.

That too.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nah. It was legit. Look at how Dooku manhandled Opress in their sparring session. Contrary to common belief, Opress never grew much through his training. He hardly had any training from either Dooku or Maul.


You are still comparing untrained Savage with trained Savage, who has completed the first stage of his training. Dooku can't manhandle any trained Savage's version, that is why he was always escaping from blade lock in that fight, he knows Savage's strength due to their previous training exercises.

I meant the second, third, fourth training... You don't think that was the end of his saber training with Dooku right ? They were sparring like hundred times in one week, and in the end Dooku probably understands that he has trouble with Savage's strength.

Look.

2S2bY8JY5Fk

0:04 - Dooku avoids from blade lock with Savage

0:06 - Dooku avoids from blade lock with Savage again*

0:13 - Dooku avoids from blade lock with Savage again, and again and finally he had to make blade lock due to Savage's speed and Savage beats him.

You need to understand that both Dooku and Savage are exceptions here, Dooku is the most elegant duelist and Savage is the physically strongest maybe stronger than Anakin and Maul, that is why, because of the big strength gap between Savage and Dooku, Dooku can't beat Savage in a pure saber duel.

Originally posted by ILS
Maul stomped Savage on account of his enchanted legs alongside being much more skilled. He wouldn't be able to pin Savage like that with his prosthetic legs. Plus, Savage was somewhat inexperienced at that point. He wasn't quite the version of himself who fought Plo Koon ect.
Maul stomping Savage was after the Plo Koon fight.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Maul stomping Savage was after the Plo Koon fight. Was it? I seem to remember Maul deeming Savage as his apprentice in that fight, whereas in the Sith Hunters comic Savage was already established as Maul's apprentice.

Originally posted by ILS
Was it? I seem to remember Maul deeming Savage as his apprentice in that fight, whereas in the Sith Hunters comic Savage was already established as Maul's apprentice.
Maul loses his raptor legs in that episode (which he had in Sith Hunters), Palpatine calls off the hunt for the brothers in that episode (which was pretty much the focus of Sith Hunters), and nothing happens with Maul and Savage after that episode until Vizsla finds them.

Originally posted by ILS
Was it? I seem to remember Maul deeming Savage as his apprentice in that fight, whereas in the Sith Hunters comic Savage was already established as Maul's apprentice.


Nope. That comic begins right where Season 4 left off. And Maul calls Savage "brother" in it. Not "apprentice".

Fair enough then.

@DP

I never said Dooku can't beat ''untrained'' Savage in a saber duel, I said ''trained''.

You are putting that quote from Filoni but you are also ignoring the actual quote from the animation which is ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3phTvVo0hE

Count Dooku : ''You have completed the first stages of your training, and I am sending you on an assignment to Toydaria.''
Can you explain to me what ''training'' Savage completed here ?

Not to mention, ''barely'' doesn't mean he didn't get any.

Originally posted by ILS
Was it? I seem to remember Maul deeming Savage as his apprentice in that fight, whereas in the Sith Hunters comic Savage was already established as Maul's apprentice.

IIRC only Kenobi called like that in Sith Hunters, without any information, just based on estimation.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@DP

I never said Dooku can't beat ''untrained'' Savage in a saber duel, I said ''trained''.

You are putting that quote from Filoni but you are also ignoring the actual quote from the animation which is ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3phTvVo0hE

Count Dooku : ''You have completed the first stages of your training, and I am sending you on an assignment to Toydaria.''
Can you explain to me what ''training'' Savage completed here ?

Not to mention, ''barely'' doesn't mean he didn't get any.






I'm not ignoring anything because there's no contradiction between that and what Filoni said at all. And even if there was Creator's comments mean more than In-Universe Character statements.

First stages in this case is obviously just his first lessons.

I'm not saying his 1 week of training made Zero difference, but there was hardly any difference between "Trained" Savage and "Untrained" Savage. Because he barely had any training.

Do you think if you're a really big guy, and get 1 week's boxing lessons that you're suddenly going to be a contender for heavyweight champion of the world?

Dooku would stomp Trained Savage almost just as easily as he stomped Untrained Savage in a 1 v 1. Trained Savage might just do moderately better at most.

@DP

It would make difference since untrained Savage didn't even know how to use a lightsaber. Do you know that he used a dathomirian axe to kill Halsey right ? And Nightbrothers trained themself to use axe and lance kind of weapon not a lightsaber ? That was his first lightsaber experience, any average Jedi (or even a Padawan) could defeat Savage in a lightsaber duel there due to Savage being unfamiliar that weapon. In this case, of course 1 week would make a big difference.

Just look at his TK, with some torture he was able to lift 2 orbalisk stone in a very short time.

The difference here is learning how to use a lightsaber, of course Savage didn't mastered any lightsaber form, he just learned the necessary basics to put up his strength smoothly into his lightsaber.

Just look at how he is swinging that saber, it is completely sloopy, he even fall by himself because he lost his balance,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2xe9okSSLA&feature=player_detailpage#t=18
but then he learn to use a double-sided lightsaber properly, which is a big difference.

Dooku : '' You have no technique. Sloppy. But with the proper training, you could be a powerful warrior. You have a natural ability, but we must hone it.''

As you see from this quote, Savage has no skills on lightsaber first, but then Dooku mentioned about ''proper training.'' and ''natural ability''.

Not to mention, we are comparing a training exercise (and his first exercise) to a real fight.

^ Agree that's what the first stages of his training would have been. Basics of using a Lightsaber and accessing TK.

Yet he was still no match for Dooku in either category.

His strength, and rage enhanced Tk can pose a threat. But one on one Dooku can handle him no problem. Dooku's just too skilled and too much of a pro for the Zabrak.

And btw Savage was lifting those 2 Orbalisks at the start of the session. Dooku's training just helped him to lift them higher. So you see his small amount of training hardly made any difference. His whole power came from the Magical Amp the nightsisters gave him. And his main combat skill was from his warrior clan training.

Dooku's training just helped him to access his power a little more, as well as the very basics of Saber wielding.

LOL I love how so many people refer to the stone obelisks as "orbalisks"