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DE Sidious, Darth Plagueis, Darth Maul (SOD)

vs.

FOTJ Luke Skywalker, Jaina Solo, Mara Jade Skywalker

*Morals off for all fighters

*Standard gear for all

*Battle takes place on neutral ground

Luke takes this. From what I recall Luke and Leia were able to unlock each other's full-potential to stop Palpatine's Force Storm. Luke reached his peak in FOTJ so he should do reasonably well, especially since he out-dueled Palpatine way back in DE.

The other two hold off their foes until Luke takes Sidious. Then things go downhill from there.

Team 1.

I would always choose Sidious or Plagueis over inconsistent GM Luke, and Maul slaughters Jade.

Team 2, FOTJ Luke is considerably more powerful than Sidious is and throw in their battle meld connection and they have a pretty enormous advantage.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I would always choose Sidious or Plagueis over inconsistent GM Luke

LOL

Originally posted by Trocity
LOL

Assuming that Jaina would face Plagueis, I think she'd get killed by him before anyone else dies. This would eventually turn into a 3 vs 1 fight.

Luke and Mara have one of the best Battle Melds ever because it's backed up by a Force Bond. She can literally borrow power from her Husband as it goes.

Maul is the weak link on team 1, he probably dies first, and the Sword of the Jedi can probably hold off Plageuis till Mara comes to help. If Plageuis is stronger then Caedus, he isn't stronger by much.

Though there's also an argument for having Force Bond Mara hold Plageuis off. With her Husband's power flowing through her, she may be amped beyond her niece.

Originally posted by Sinious
Assuming that Jaina would face Plagueis, I think she'd get killed by him before anyone else dies. This would eventually turn into a 3 vs 1 fight.

Eh, she did well against Caedus, who's stronger than P I'd say, and was on the offensive there, focusing on killing him even if it meant taking hits. Here she can afford to play more defensive.

Originally posted by Q99
Eh, she did well against Caedus, who's stronger than P I'd say, and was on the offensive there, focusing on killing him even if it meant taking hits. Here she can afford to play more defensive.

Wasn't Caedus seriously weakened in that fight?

Caedus vs Plagueis is hard to puzzle out imo.

At any rate, Jaina can withstand Plageuis more then long enough for an amped Mara to take Maul out.

Originally posted by Sinious
Wasn't Caedus seriously weakened in that fight?


The disabilities are why he couldn't win and she ended up having the edge in the battle, but he also specifically has a force ability to ignore all pain, could affect blood flow and organ performance... and he had also received medical attention, and Jaina had prior wounds by the time of the final clash too.

Heck, the prior wounds were from *their previous clash* (wherein Jaina had Luke disguising her, but that was her sole advantage, and that was when she took his arm, and he hit her with force lightning). Jaina was the one who inflicted the wounds to begin with, and if she hadn't been fast enough and good enough to do so, it wouldn't have happened.

So, yea, Jaina had some non-physical assistance in the first clash and was able to keep up with his speed well enough to take an arm, and in the second both were wounded from the first, him more-so, but with some treatment and force abilities that allowed him to be less affected than most anyone in the same place, and no more outside edges.


Also on the disguise thing in the first clash- Jaina shot at Caedus, wounding him, the duel started, Caedus was surprised with just how good his foe was as they exchanged kicks, then he 'saw' that it was 'Luke.'

Jaina was responsible for every last one of his wounds, and the help she received was fairly limited, and he received medical treatment in between fights and had ways of minimizing the effects of wounds.

Jaina could handle Plagueis for a bit, but she'd lose due to his superior power. Mara would get stomped by Plagueis, and would lose to Maul. Sidious can hold off Luke while his wife and niece fall to the Sith

You keep forgetting Mara is amped due to her husband

and I think you're underestimating her anyway.

NJO Force-bond slaughterhouse.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
You keep forgetting Mara is amped due to her husband

and I think you're underestimating her anyway.

Yeh to be perfectly honest, NJO characters get pretty terribly lowballed here, the complete lack of knowledge on Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Darth Caedus, Kyle Katarn, etc.. is pretty self evident in most threads.

I've only seen a few who actually know the full feats of said characters. Which is fairly surprising considering the respect threads out there.

Mara overwhelms Maul as Jaina holds Plagueis off, FOTJ Luke probably takes DE Sheev for 8/10. However the Force Bond/Battle Meld mixture turns it into a pretty dominant NJO victory.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeh to be perfectly honest, NJO characters get pretty terribly lowballed here, the complete lack of knowledge on Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Darth Caedus, Kyle Katarn, etc.. is pretty self evident in most threads.

I've only seen a few who actually know the full feats of said characters. Which is fairly surprising considering the respect threads out there.

Mara overwhelms Maul as Jaina holds Plagueis off, FOTJ Luke probably takes DE Sheev for 8/10. However the Force Bond/Battle Meld mixture turns it into a pretty dominant NJO victory.

Right on point.

Mara wouldn't overwhelm Maul, she had enough trouble with Lumiya by nearly giving herself a concussion by headbutting her, failing to stab her, and nearly getting strangled by the Meditation sphere (she knew was self aware). Lumiya and Maul are more or less skillfully equal, she'd lose to Maul or get destroyed by Plagueis

Jaina likewise would lose to Plagueis.

You're ignoring the numerous advantages Lumiya had internally and externally during that battle.

You're also ignoring that this is LOTF Mara Jade whom was owning Darth Caedus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're ignoring that this is LOTF Mara Jade whom was owning Darth Caedus.

She admitted inferiority in the force against Caedus, and picked the tunnels to restrict his movement

She didn't have amps from her husband then. She does here

And Lumiya's given LUKE trouble. It's no bad on Mara if Lumiya gives her trouble too

Originally posted by carthage
Jaina could handle Plagueis for a bit, but she'd lose due to his superior power. Mara would get stomped by Plagueis, and would lose to Maul. Sidious can hold off Luke while his wife and niece fall to the Sith

The last time Luke and Sidious dueled, it didn't take too long.


The first one going down is the one Luke fights.

...If Sidious goes down first, it's all over.

It does help Luke that he and Sidious move faster then everyone else present can see...they're basically flash stepping all over the place.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
...If Sidious goes down first, it's all over.

It does help Luke that he and Sidious move faster then everyone else present can see...they're basically flash stepping all over the place.


LOL

Originally posted by Q99
The disabilities are why he couldn't win and she ended up having the edge in the battle, but he also specifically has a force ability to ignore all pain, could affect blood flow and organ performance... and he had also received medical attention, and Jaina had prior wounds by the time of the final clash too.

Heck, the prior wounds were from *their previous clash* (wherein Jaina had Luke disguising her, but that was her sole advantage, and that was when she took his arm, and he hit her with force lightning). Jaina was the one who inflicted the wounds to begin with, and if she hadn't been fast enough and good enough to do so, it wouldn't have happened.

So, yea, Jaina had some non-physical assistance in the first clash and was able to keep up with his speed well enough to take an arm, and in the second both were wounded from the first, him more-so, but with some treatment and force abilities that allowed him to be less affected than most anyone in the same place, and no more outside edges.


Also on the disguise thing in the first clash- Jaina shot at Caedus, wounding him, the duel started, Caedus was surprised with just how good his foe was as they exchanged kicks, then he 'saw' that it was 'Luke.'

Jaina was responsible for every last one of his wounds, and the help she received was fairly limited, and he received medical treatment in between fights and had ways of minimizing the effects of wounds.

But you make it sound like losing an arm is a minor fatigue. Her combat showings against Caedus don't prove anything here in this case where she is matched with Plagueis. His knowledge in the force and raw power are just too much for her.

The help she received was limited yet sufficient enough for her to gain major advantages over Caedus.

Well, if ROTS Sidious can move so fast as to fade in and out of reality, and DE Sidious is that much better, and Luke is even better still...

Flash stepping seems an accurate term.

Originally posted by carthage
She admitted inferiority in the force against Caedus, and picked the tunnels to restrict his movement

Well of course Caedus is more powerful but Mara Jade overcame that difference with combat tactics and excellent fighting skill. Caedus didn't kill her via skill, power or anything inbetween, he had to use a poisoned syringe to kill her, in every regard she kicked his ass.

Originally posted by Sinious
But you make it sound like losing an arm is a minor fatigue. Her combat showings against Caedus don't prove anything here in this case where she is matched with Plagueis. His knowledge in the force and raw power are just too much for her.

The help she received was limited yet sufficient enough for her to gain major advantages over Caedus.

Raw power has hardly defeated her in almost every duel she has fought in. Why? Because she uses tactics like an assassin and fights like a weapon master.

Plagueis is certainly more powerful but Jaina is second to none when it comes to combat tactics and planning. Her lightsaber skill was confirmed by her twin himself to be at a masterful degree and let's not forget that FOTJ puts her very close to her Uncle in lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well, if ROTS Sidious can move so fast as to fade in and out of reality, and DE Sidious is that much better, and Luke is even better still...

Flash stepping seems an accurate term.



Firstly Being Better does not necessarily equate Being Faster.

Secondly if Sidious was moving faster than Skywalker can even perceive, then how was it that Fisto managed to intercept a few strikes of Sidious's?


That's the logic of it not adding up. Now here's the canonicity issue of it:

1. G and T Canon >> C-Canon.
2. Neither G or T Canon depict any such speed where other Jedi/Sith can not even see Sidious move.
3. Anakin never even sees Sidious fight in the damn film itself!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly Being Better does not necessarily equate Being Faster.

Secondly if Sidious was moving faster than Skywalker can even perceive, then how was it that Fisto managed to intercept a few strikes of Sidious's?


Eyes can be deceitful, some people, unfortunately don't understand this, Dooku was dueling with 3 nightsister while he was ''blind''... That is why, force users rely on their force senses not their eyes.

Then you have stunts like wielding '1000 lightsabers' for GM Luke, and you realize how fast they're going.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Eyes can be deceitful, some people, unfortunately don't understand this, Dooku was dueling with 3 nightsister while he was ''blind''... That is why, force users rely on their force senses not their eyes.


^ Yep. And yet people continually use the fact that Mace and Sidious seemed like blurs to Skywalker, as apparent proof that Mace and Sidious would Speed Blitz Skywalker.



Originally posted by Angelalex242
Then you have stunts like wielding '1000 lightsabers' for GM Luke, and you realize how fast they're going.


Novels are full of very colorful speed descriptions. Yet the evidence in G and T Canon is severely lacking.

Even in the comics Kenobi has been shown to move his saber fast enough to wield more than one lightsabers, afterimages and appearing to wield multiple lightsabers are usual feats:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/4121189-4120379-cw20-37.jpg

That is because you cannot represent Jedi Speed Feats well with live action. There's only so fast normal humans can go. The best you can do is Matrix style Shenanigans.

Even Palpatine doesn't move like he should in live action. Ian McDirmid just isn't that good.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
That is because you cannot represent Jedi Speed Feats well with live action. There's only so fast normal humans can go. The best you can do is Matrix style Shenanigans.

Even Palpatine doesn't move like he should in live action. Ian McDirmid just isn't that good.


Except T-Canon isn't Live Action. It's animated.

They've always managed to represent Superman and the Flash fighting at super speeds. Don't see why that would be so difficult for George Lucas- The guy who reinvented special effects.

Yeah, its not like it happened in one of the first scenes of the Phantom menace or anything when Qui Gon and TPM Kenobi avoid blaster bolts from Droidekas

Maybe. The fact remains that Palpatine was hardly moving faster then the eye could see when played by Mcdirmid, in direct contrast to the novel of the movie.

I don't understand why everyone needs to conform to what the movies say to the T. If people want to debate novel/comic verisons of characters then just let them. There's nothing more inane than arguing over canon. Just use whatever version you want.....

Anyways, I think Jaina and Mara are still being downplayed too much.

The one vs. video with Mara I found had her on par with Darth Malgus, barely edging him out. The same video maker had Jaina beat Plagueis.

So, if you want to rely on EvanNova's opinion, the Jedi have this.

Originally posted by carthage
Mara wouldn't overwhelm Maul, she had enough trouble with Lumiya by nearly giving herself a concussion by headbutting her, failing to stab her, and nearly getting strangled by the Meditation sphere (she knew was self aware). Lumiya and Maul are more or less skillfully equal, she'd lose to Maul or get destroyed by Plagueis

Lumyia would kick Maul's ass. Luke even with boost of confidence couldn't do anything more than drive Lumiya back. She is that good.

Logically Luke should have been able to toss her around like a ragdoll, though, considering how weak she was in the Force.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Logically Luke should have been able to toss her around like a ragdoll, though, considering how weak she was in the Force.

Logically her Force defenses are in check. What really is a problem is that she gets tired fast. Another Jedi pushed a statue against her, she was well capable to defend. But as contest kept going she got tired, she could just dodge that statue but she was deliberately doing it to influence Jacen. If Lumiya could simply be ragdolled, Mara would do exactly that, she definitely has no reason to hold back anything, she even used lightning during dark nest.

Lumiya to Luke is like Luke to Abeloth. By your logic Abeloth should have ragdolled Luke as well.

You may consider that to be plot induced stupidity. Luke's inconsistency is basically 'strong as he needs to be.' If the plot requires him to suck, he does.

Watching Arhael piss in the wind never fails to entertain.

*sigh

Arhael's denial on how inconsistent GM Luke really is happened again...

So according to your logic, Lumiya is like Sidious or Plagueis level since she just manage to fight against GM Luke right ? Nice.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
You may consider that to be plot induced stupidity. Luke's inconsistency is basically 'strong as he needs to be.' If the plot requires him to suck, he does.
Inconsistency is nothing but a bias used to blatantly dismiss feats. Lumiya's powers were limited but that doesn't make her a weakling. Her fight against both Mara and Luke is a proof of that.
Luke was actually very strong due to plot. Being able to drive her back without a shoto is very impressing considering that others are unable to block a single attack of her whip. Mara in comparison avoided the duel and turned the fight into a brawl.

Originally posted by Marco1907
*sigh

Arhael's denial on how inconsistent GM Luke really is happened again...

So according to your logic, Lumiya is like Sidious or Plagueis level since she just manage to fight against GM Luke right ? Nice.
Not really. Sith can spam lighting, so she pretty much has no chance.

Okay, then how do you explain a single droideka holding off Luke...and Mara too?

Plot Induced Stupidity.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Okay, then how do you explain a single droideka holding off Luke...and Mara too?

Plot Induced Stupidity.
Never faced a droideka before, knowledge matters. And it was a modified droideka, more dangegous than a regular one. Confined space makes it more favorable for droideka as well. And they faced droideka after storming through enemies of an entire ship, surely they weren't in their best form. Droideka are problematic for PT Jedi too or you forgot how Qui-Gon and Kenobi ran away from them and tried to generally avoid direct encounter?
In PT I remember a droideka being defeated only by Anakin. He slid himself under it in order to cut it down and he encountered them many times in order to learn their weaknesses. Otherwise Jedi pretty much preferred to avoid them or use some sort of heavy artillery.

@arhael

Modified Droideka vs. Lumiya, who wins ?

Probably Kolar

How about Droideka army vs. Maul ?

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/MaulForceWave1_zpsed395664.jpg

Maul only blitz in SW Cannon

Droidekas dont have a chance

Maul blitzes droids who have faster processing than petty living beings who are restricted by their fleshy brain capacity

Speedster tbh

Then you have to explain why Luke doesn't just crush the thing when he's proven capable of blowing through Vong.

Plot Induced Stupidity.

I would somewhat enjoy if Luke just cut loose every fight but it would make for boring books I suppose. I really don't think he does go all out despite what people say about lowballing his opponents; He should be able to just crush everyone. Could you imagine Sidious not trashing Lumiya outright? PIS Indeed.

There should have been a book where Luke just lost his shit completely and cut loose and it required everyone to take him down and reel him in, only beating him with some bullshit plot device in the end.

Lumiya wouldn't die outright to Sidious, Fisto didnt are you trying to say Fisto > Luke > Lumiya?

@ILS That would be incredible.

And no, I'd still have Luke winning a slight majority against Kit.

Well, yes. It's the same reason that Kryptonite, an ostensibly rare material, is EVERYWHERE. Because there aren't any other ways of creating drama for Superman.

Magic >:]

All of which is off topic.

What we really have her is sadly underestimated NJO ladies. Someone should fix that.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Then you have to explain why Luke doesn't just crush the thing when he's proven capable of blowing through Vong.

Plot Induced Stupidity.
Cos he is too busy blocking blaster bolts. Nowhere he blowed through Vong either, I believe you make it up.

I did not.

Evannova shows a scan of a comic page where Skywalker blasts through Vong by bucketloads in his vs. videos.

Can I tell you where that comic is? No. I don't own it myself. But it certainly exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lymDLwJCrdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh2nADtPDzM

Fights between him and Windu, and him and Revan

Fotj Luke explodes mauls heart at the start of the fight, he then quickly kills sidiois while the other two take on plagueis.

Originally posted by Arhael
Cos he is too busy blocking blaster bolts. Nowhere he blowed through Vong either, I believe you make it up.

Nah, it's in the invasion comics. I'll grab you the scan.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Nah, it's in the invasion comics. I'll grab you the scan.

Got it:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4271306-invasion3.3.jpg

Originally posted by Angelalex242
I did not.

Evannova shows a scan of a comic page where Skywalker blasts through Vong by bucketloads in his vs. videos.

Can I tell you where that comic is? No. I don't own it myself. But it certainly exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lymDLwJCrdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh2nADtPDzM

Fights between him and Windu, and him and Revan
Ok, sorry for that. Then again how is it relevant to droideka or Lumiya?

In that image it looks like Luke Force blasts the ground making dust and debris fly at Vong. Also, telekinesis actually does work against Vong but to much smaller degree. Ganner Rhysode attacked Vong with TK and it made them stagger and even some fell on their ass, can't remember exactly.

Regardless, circumstances of Lumiya, droideka and Vong can't be compared in any way to see any sort of performance difference and call it inconsistency. Droideka was challenging because that's how they were portrayed in movies, that's what author based it on. Lumiya was challenging because she was very skilled. There are plenty of examples, where characters fight someone far more powerful and can hold their own, resist Force attacks and even win. Sidious vs Windu, Dooku vs Yoda, Kenobi vs Anakin, Luke/Saba vs Abeloth, Luke/Mara/Tahiri vs Lord Nyax and many more. Lumiya never stood a chance but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to put up a fight.

It's relevant because, also mentioned in those videos, Shatterpoint takes droids of all sorts to the cleaners.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
It's relevant because, also mentioned in those videos, Shatterpoint takes droids of all sorts to the cleaners.
How do you know Luke knew Shatterpoint? And as I said he was too busy deflecting blaster bolts to try Force attacks of any sort.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Got it:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4271306-invasion3.3.jpg


Damn.

...did you even watch the damn videos? It clearly shows the research. Luke has Shatterpoint. Not as strong as Mace's, but he has it.

Comment again when you've watched both videos beginning to end.

Luke taught Shatterpoint to Jaina, who used it to shatter mandalorian iron. So... yea.

Anyways, Luke also mastered all 7 forms of Lightsaber combat to their nth degree. He's THE Tier 10 duelist for a reason. The one relevant to chaining force attacks into lightsaber sequences is Nimaan, so all he has to do is temporarily switch to it.

My point is that it is unknown when he mastered the shatterpoint and it is unknown to what degree. And as I said it is irrelevant because he was too busy blocking blaster bolts. Also, Luke haven't mastered a single Form, he was just a lightsaber master. Nowhere he is mentioned to know a single one. Most books were written before Forms existence and no author picked it up since NJO was introduced and I am glad for that.

I actually did an interesting fighting style analysis for Luke at one point.

How good is he? Probably better then anyone not named Mace, simply for having more midichlorians to work with.

And where is this analysis, emperordmb?

On my interesting fighting styles thread. I will link it when I have time. Or if someone else is feeling generous, they can link it.