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In an effort to stop needless reporting of posters to moderators for disagreements over characters- does anyone here want to make a tier system like the Comic book subforum here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577922.html

The ties could be divided into subforums according to lightsaber skill, force ability, and a ranking into both factors as seen here:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-character-tiering-10-1-1628084/?page=1

As this is a community effort, all feedback is important and all posters should feel free to post their list and argue for their characters placement accordingly. If we can get this off the ground who would be interested in working towards a system? Is anyone up for it?

Sure!

Not so sure why people want a tier list so badly. Our opinions differ so differently that a tier list would serve almost no purpose.

Other than the TOR/Bane fans most of the posters here have a general idea of where characters fit in placement. Besides people are getting reported because the TOR/Bane clique think X match is a spite thread, and they can't argue their points without crying to a mod. A tier placement would at least give an idea of where a character fits in relation to a fight, so that they have no reason to go to Badabing every other thread.

The real challenge would be for it to not go off topic or turn into some silliness.

I like the idea of this, I just don't know how well it will work in practice.

It would work well, take a look how it went on Comicvine.

As long as we remember to actually put the NJO members in the tier list this time. NJO is sort of underrepresented in the comicvine list.

Uh, no?

Durron, Mara, Luke, Lumiya, Katarn, Caedus, Jaina are all in the upper tier brackets for the most part, with even Saba, Corran, and others ranking high in lightsaber skill tier. For instance Jaina, Mara, Saba, etc are all tier 8 based on rankings from the vine:





So if this is a go so far MCP, The Merchant, ILS, and maybe Trocity. Anyone else?

I would be interested.

Darth nihilus and revan 3.0 are at the top of the list, above everyone.

There's a lack of characters on the CV list now because we aren't overwhelming the thread with too many debates at one time. After a few months it'll probably be stacked.

Originally posted by Trocity
I like the idea of this, I just don't know how well it will work in practice.

Vitiate has to be above Sidious for this list to be considered anything.

That being said, we probably need two tier lists. One for the PT half of the forum, the other for the TOR half of the forum.

@Carthage
It will be the way you want, but from my experience in creating Tiers, we should use top/mid/low degrees. In a list of all time, there will be far too much characters in one tier. Like say, Plo, Kenobi, Opress. And we should somehow state, that Kenobi is more advanced Tier X fighter, then Opress for example.



I'm not a fan of Eras after ROTJ, so I wont be that helpful with Luke and Cadeus. But - was Luke that good as a duelist, to place him the whole tier above Sidious and Yoda?
I would also place Vader as level 8 duelist, since Lucas statement was clear - Anakin was clearly better duelist.

And form of that Tier sux imo. Here, they are placed by skill. Yoda and Sidious are top in tier 9, and the rest are below. It would be much easier, to use my system:

Tier 9:

Luke (top)
Yoda (top)
Darth Sidious (top/mid)
Darth Caedus (mid)
Count Dooku (mid/low)
Mace Windu (mid/low)
Anakin Skywalker (low)

It's much more simple way to state how good those guys are. And this is my proposition for a tier 9. I'm not sure if Plagueis shouldn't be a low Tier 9. If not, then top 8 Tier?

GM Luke is indeed a whole tier above Sidious and Yoda. Even Yoda can't take out a dozen Sith on his own. GM Luke? Can. He is worthy of his Tier 10. And we haven't even gotten into what happens when he goes 'One With the Force.' Which is basically Super Saiyan for Force Users. He's probably temporarily tied with the Daughter of Mortis then.

Also, Sidious is decidedly higher then Yoda. They are not tied. Sidious is really a '9.5' on the tier rankings. Yoda is only a 9. This is particularly evident in DE.

I know the suspense is killing you killing you Carthage, so I'll just come out and say it: it was I who reported you.

Originally posted by appletonia
I know the suspense is killing you killing you Carthage, so I'll just come out and say it: it was I who reported you. Why lol?

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Also, Sidious is decidedly higher then Yoda. They are not tied. Sidious is really a '9.5' on the tier rankings. Yoda is only a 9. This is particularly evident in DE.

Nope. Sidious didn't show himself in DE as better duelist ten his ROTS self. He just became so powerful, that he could use a Force strom.
Anyway, accroding to ROTS script and movie, Yoda was better in a pure lightsaber fight. By margin, but better.

*Lightsaber Only*

Tier 10

Darth Sidious
Yoda
Mace Windu
Darth Plagueis
GM Luke

Tier 9

Darth Tenebrous
Darth Caedus
Count Dooku
TCW Darth Maul
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Anakin Skywalker
Darth Krayt
Darth Venamis

Tier 8

Ben Kenobi
Darth Vader (close to 9 due to his skill improvement in RotJ)
TPM Darth Maul (close to 9)
Savage Opress (8.5)
RotJ Luke (close to 9)
Plo Koon
Asajj Ventress (8.5)
Qui-Gon Jinn
Sora Bulq
Kit Fisto
Lumiya (close to 9)
Exar Kun
Ulic
Saba Sebatyne
Jaina Solo (close to 9)
Kyle Katarn
Luminara Unduli
Darth Malgus
Cade Skywalker
Darth Bane

Originally posted by ares834
Not so sure why people want a tier list so badly. Our opinions differ so differently that a tier list would serve almost no purpose.

True.

I posted that from CV for a general outline, it doesn't have to specifically be as shown on there. Regarding Sidious I think he should be in the same tier as Sidious, Caedus, etc- not all of us are going to agree on placement but the positions are shown by feats not by opinions. They could be placed by indicators like high-mid-low, it depends on how it works with everyone.



In terms of skill Plagueis's is hard to gauge given we don't know much about Venamis. Based on his showings he's implied to have a high level of skill, and based on his fight with Venamis one can surmise that. On CV we had him as too vague.




He beat Luke in an ailing sickened cloned body, that's a pretty impressive feat for Sidious imo.

@Marco are you making your list based on overall, I can agree with a lot of your placements but you might want to break it down to high-mid-low markers (like you're doing with the numbers).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That being said, we probably need two tier lists. One for the PT half of the forum, the other for the TOR half of the forum.

Why would that be the case? On Comicvine TOR characters are ranked alongside everyone else in power, skill, and overall ability. We're not all going to agree on placement, that's just how it is. But some characters are going to be placed with others based on some degree of commonality of their showings/

I also think there should be only Physical prowess tier too, if there is only Skill tier, because it can be unfair for some characters such Savage, Scabrous, Malgus, Mace, Maul, Bruu Jun-Fan etc. since they also rely on physical strength and force combat, not only pure skill.

You could make that as well. I don't see any reason not too. But there would have to be others interested in it as well

Eh. The overall tier is where physical stats come in to play. Making a physical tier is kind of pointless because you then need to make sub-tiers for strength, durability, speed ect, and there are some characters with little to no physical feats, meaning it'd be pretty pointless for the most part.

Does anyone else think Luke should really get his own tier?

I'd say so. Maybe have DE Palps on his tier.

Probably. They're each the most powerful of the Sith/Jedi.

Agreed then.

Tier 10: Grand Master Luke Skywalker/Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)

Now come the lower ones.

I think he needs his own dueling tier, otherwise tier 10 would be vacant. You could put Sidious and Yoda in tier 10 but the whole basis for the tiering system - Cin Drallig's statements - contradicts that, because Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Anakin are tier 9 duelists.

IIRC Luke is in tier 10 power alongside prime Sidious in our thread.

I don't think they're going by the whole lightsaber/force/overall system you devised. Or at least no one other than Marco actually made a list along those parameters

No point in even making tiers, no one will follow it,

It helps noobs understand characters better without having to do loads of research. People have been making decent threads on CV without knowing much about the characters because of the thread.

If its made then Neph, Fated, and DMB have no reasons to report anyone falsely anymore, because the character placement will be defined at least somewhat.

Marco why do you have Unduli above the Exile?

Luminara, Cade, and Bane should be tier 7 to varying degrees in my opinion, Kenobi should be tier 8 and Vader and Maul tier 9? or 8.5 along with Windu/Dooku/Lumiya. Where exactly does the Exile rank in dueling skill?

Originally posted by carthage
Luminara, Cade, and Bane should be tier 7 to varying degrees in my opinion, Kenobi should be tier 8 and Vader and Maul tier 9? or 8.5 along with Windu/Dooku/Lumiya. Where exactly does the Exile rank in dueling skill?

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=777740

*shrug*

Above Unduli for sure.

Yeah, Luminara being a tier 7 sounds good to me.

She might be above her in terms of force ability, but who has she beaten that places her above Luminara fighting evenly with Ventress?

Just curious. Concering skill who has she beaten that'd put her above Bane, Cade, Quinlan, or Luminara?

Exile would kill Luminara via mere presence.

Cool story. But who has she beaten that would make her a better duelist than Luminara by feats?

Revan's Master.

Originally posted by carthage
She might be above her in terms of force ability, but who has she beaten that places her above Luminara fighting evenly with Ventress?

Just curious.

Well Traya for one, and Atris.

Atris a confirmed master of Juyo - Requiring many mastered forms - a renowned swordsman, And was beaten in her own DS Nexus by Suriks' Lightsaber skill alone.

But yeh, Traya was more powerful in the force, meaning she too was bested due to the exiles saber abilities. Traya being "A master of Lightsaber combat"

Plus, y'know, mastering every form.

Fair enough. Traya has virtually no saber feats though, she's more of a force powerhouse. I don't know if that'd elevate her to anything more than a high tier 7 . You'll have to argue it out with others. But for the most part is that an accurate assessment?

Originally posted by ares834
Not so sure why people want a tier list so badly. Our opinions differ so differently that a tier list would serve almost no purpose.

Its so you stop reporting people, if you don't want to contribute DMB don't bother posting in here. If this gets approved and stickied by the mods, you'll have nothing to complain about.

Only characters I care about their placement is Revan and Cade, and both are tier 8 duelists. Revan is a tier 9 Force-user.

Originally posted by carthage
Fair enough. Traya has virtually no saber feats though, she's more of a force powerhouse. I don't know if that'd elevate her to anything more than a high tier 7 . You'll have to argue it out with others. But for the most part is that an accurate assessment?

To be honest anything is a start with this Forum.

She's got the feats of single handedly slaying a legion of elite Sith Assassins, the Storm Beast, she could learn her opponents form in moments. Echani battle precognition etc.

I'd put her at least at 8. And yes while Traya is a force powerhouse, that's the point. The exile broke through a gap that large in force abilities, and a Nexus, with sabers alone.

Does anyone else have any objection to Revan being a tier 8 duelist? (other than Neph)

I place Mace, Dooku and Anakin as tier 9.
Revan is in my high tier 8.

Tier 8: Lightsaber Skill


1. Darth Maul/Asajj Ventress/Exar Kun/General Grievous/Jaina Solo/Obi Wan

2. Revan/Ulic Qel Droma/Mara Jade Skywalker/Agen Kolar/Kit Fisto/Plo Koon

3. Darth Malgus/Kyle Katarn/Cade Skywalker??/Darth Krayt??

*Is Cade really an equal to Krayt in lightsaber skill?

Jaina Tier 9 (Low) IMO.

But yeh, if Revan is tier 8, so is Surik.

She fought an injured Caedus, and had Luke helping her in their first fight. Skillfully, she isn't better than Maul or Kun in my opinion, I know Ancientpower, Angelalex, and others might think differently.

But if she fought Caedus without assistance (she admitted inferiority to him in the force in Invincible) she would've lost.

Oh Kun should be higher too, in my eyes.

But yes, I put her higher than Maul.

Her fights with Caedus were partially circumstantial, I don't know if I'd go any higher than apex tier 8 for her. If you can argue otherwise maybe, but they're both comparably powerful/skillful. Some people wanted to put her tier 9 on CV, but I'd like to see more support for that.

Jaina is overrated.

Originally posted by carthage
Her fights with Caedus were partially circumstantial, I don't know if I'd go any higher than apex tier 8 for her. If you can argue otherwise maybe, but they're both comparably powerful/skillful.

Not interested in a 9000 word debate with Marco, perhaps after Christmas I'll have the time.

Until then I'm happy as long as Surik makes the list

Since I'm getting no disagreements on tier 8, how about tier 7 now?

I'm going with high tier 7 for Surik, I'm not seeing any justification on how she's above Malgus, Krayt, or Katarn in pure saber skill.

Tier 7 (with some adjustments to CV)

1. Meetra Surik/Sora Bulq/Savage Opress/Saesee Tiin/Darth Malak/Raskta Lsu

2. Corran Horn/Leia Organa Solo/Ki Adi Mundi/Qui Gon Jinn/Vodo Siosk Baas/Darth Bane/Quinlan Vos/Luminara Unduli/Ven Zallow

3. Galen Marek??/Kenth Hamner/Anakin Solo/Shaak Ti/Adi Gallia/Aayla Secura/



*Any more additions

*Adding Saba Sebatyne to the bottom of tier 8

Asajj on the same level with Kenobi and Maul? No way imo.

I would say, it's more safe to asume, that she's closer to Fisto and Koon. So is Sora I would say.

She bested both Fisto and Koon, and a source states that Windu had to use all of her skill to put her down.

She is at the top of tier 8, and has already shown herself to at least be superior to either duelist. She'd be a greater challenge to either Kenobi or Maul.

Did she beat Koon? When? And yeah, she bested Fisto after an equal fight. But on the other hand, she might become stronger since that time - unlike Fisto.

Well no ones saying she's above Malgus, Krayt or Katarn, just on their level.

She'd stomp Saba, so....

Honestly if you put Malak at too of tier 7, she's bottom of 8. He was considered Revans inferior in every way when she was his equal, and to be honest, what has Revan done that she hasn't? He beat Malak, she beat Atris. Atris > Malak.

While yes a lot of her stuff is hype (Mastering every form etc) she killed Atris, Traya, fought hundreds of assassins, Gand, Bounty Hunters, Sion 6 times, a legion of the most elite Dark Jedi in the triumvirates employ, and many more.

Like let's be honest here. She fought a Storm beast whose strength was immense, 160 Sith assassins (I've counted) Sith Commandos, Dark Jedi, Sion and more beasts. All of these amped by a Nexus, a nexus that made her physically Ill. She then went on and killed a being more powerful than her.

That series of feats is above anything Katarn has done, and well above Malak...

He had a broken arm granted, but she drove him back, kicked him, and pinned him down.

Originally posted by McP
Did she beat Koon? When? And yeah, she bested Fisto after an equal fight. But on the other hand, she might become stronger since that time - unlike Fisto.

I thought Koon had a broken arm...

With a broken arm, he disarmed her from one saber. I would say, that he was the one who had an advantage.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well no ones saying she's above Malgus, Krayt or Katarn, just on their level.

She'd stomp Saba, so....

Honestly if you put Malak at too of tier 7, she's bottom of 8. He was considered Revans inferior in every way when she was his equal, and to be honest, what has Revan done that she hasn't? He beat Malak, she beat Atris. Atris > Malak.

While yes a lot of her stuff is hype (Mastering every form etc) she killed Atris, Traya, fought hundreds of assassins, Gand, Bounty Hunters, Sion 6 times, a legion of the most elite Dark Jedi in the triumvirates employ, and many more.

Like let's be honest here. She fought a Storm beast whose strength was immense, 160 Sith assassins (I've counted) Sith Commandos, Dark Jedi, Sion and more beasts. All of these amped by a Nexus, a nexus that made her physically Ill. She then went on and killed a being more powerful than her.

That series of feats is above anything Katarn has done, and well above Malak...

I'll honestly let you sort all that out with Ant.

I also need more input on tier 7

carthage if that's a lightsaber skill only list, then Savage isn't top tier 7. His strength is a big part of his fighting ability, not so much raw skill. He'd be tier 6 in terms of raw skill, but higher up on the overall list.

I'll have to make any and all edits after we all finally agree on a list. But ok ILS

And about Meetra and Revan - Meetra considered Revan as her superior, Kreia considered Revan as her finest pupil. Meetra - along with Scourge was driven back by Darth Nyriss alone. I doubt, that Revan would lose to Nyriss.

Revans been ranked for the most part, if there is no objection to Surik I guess she's going to tier 8. Still waiting for Ant's input on that (or anyones)

Still need more input for tier 7. If not I'm going to tier 6.

What do you need my input on?

So revan is overall tier 9? Only luke would be above him correct?

Nihilus should also be tier 10 as he could kill luke in 1v1

Is The Exile above Malak?

Originally posted by McP
And about Meetra and Revan - Meetra considered Revan as her superior, Kreia considered Revan as her finest pupil. Meetra - along with Scourge was driven back by Darth Nyriss alone. I doubt, that Revan would lose to Nyriss.

Uhh what?

Firstly that's Meetra's personality, and second Kreia actually viewed the Exile as her strongest pupil.

As for Nyriss, terrible argument, lol, try again.

@Carthage: Nope, Malak is above the Exile.

Originally posted by carthage
Is The Exile above Malak?

She's much much superior, yes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope, Malak is above the Exile.

What?

What is this betrayal.

Dafuq Ant, like, how could even you believe that?

Better combat feats.
I always supported Malak over the Exile, mother.

Originally posted by Selenial
I thought Koon had a broken arm...

He did.

And yet, he managed to disarm her of one of her weapons. Ventress only did so well because Koon had a broken arm.

And that whole pinning thing, she pressed him against a railing of a narrow walkway. Congratulations...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Better combat feats.
I always supported Malak over the Exile, mother.

What in the flying **** has Malak done that Surik hasn't?

That's hella stupid, child.

Originally posted by Selenial
What the flying **** has Malak done that Surik hasn't?

That's hella stupid, child.

Nothing.

Making Darth Revan "desperate" in combat, forcing Redeemed Revan into a "brutal" battle, and being superior in sabers to Reborn Revan.
Add that to that Malak's combat abilities are directly compared to the likes of Revan's military genius, and he beat Bastila Shan in 15ish seconds.

Let the popcorn commence

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Making Darth Revan "desperate" in combat, forcing Redeemed Revan into a "brutal" battle, and being superior in sabers to Reborn Revan.
Add that to that Malak's combat abilities are directly compared to the likes of Revan's military genius, and he beat Bastila Shan in 15ish seconds.

What? Revan schooled him.
Redeemed Revans battle was brutal because he had to beat Malak 4 ****ing times.
Superior as confirmed by what source?
And how does Malaks combat abilities being equal to Revans tactical ability put him anywhere near Surik?
Dafuq has Bastilla got on her, also Game mechanics. By your logic Atris lost in 10, and Atris is one of the best in the order, far superior to padawan Bastilla.

All I see here are quotes that Shit on Revans supposed immense saber mastery.

Bastila Shan tier 6? Or lower?

I'll respond in a couple hours. Prepare for your death.

Revan had fought through hordes of Sith, soldiers, and battle droids, defeated Bastila empowered by the Star Forge several times, and then defeated Malak, even though Malak had the power of the Star Forge and several Jedi to siphon for energy.

Honestly, it's a bit disappointing that Revan went through all of that and Malak was still unable to beat him.

Originally posted by carthage
Bastila Shan tier 6 for lightsaber skill? Or lower?

Tier 6:

1. Savage Opress/Darth Zannah/Jaden Korr/Eeth Koth/Darth Wyyrlok/Satele Shan

2. Bastila Shan/Anoon Bondara/Nejaa Halcyon/Kas'im/Barsenthor/Kao Cen Darach




*need more input.

Originally posted by carthage
Bastila Shan tier 6? Or lower?

Does Bastilla have like, any feats? She was a padawan at that point in time? Wasn't she?

Originally posted by Selenial
Does Bastilla have like, any feats? She was a padawan at that point in time? Wasn't she?

She is referred to as a Padawan by Master Vandar when the gang arrives on Dantooine.

@Carthage

I would say, that Meetra is about 1 Tier below Revan

2-1 for Meetra being tier 7.

Add another vote for being Tier 7.

Originally posted by Selenial
Does Bastilla have like, any feats? She was a padawan at that point in time? Wasn't she?

She herself believed that she could handle all but the most powerful Jedi Masters, but of course this is just her hyping herself. Her only real feat is briefly contending with Malak before her peak.

Also, I wouldn't support the notion that Meetra is a tier above Satele, no.

@MCP - A numbered tier or a Low/Mid/High tier?

@Ares - I will remember this.

Also, Aurbere votes tier 8.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
She herself believed that she could handle all but the most powerful Jedi Masters, but of course this is just her hyping herself. Her only real feat is briefly contending with Malak before her peak.

The woman who thought she was so powerful she should go from Padawan to Master, and could defeat Malak is laughable to be honest, when it comes to believing her self hype.

But like, we have nothing on her peak.

Ok So thus far for lightsaber skill:

Tier 10

1. GM Skywalker/DE Darth Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Darth Caedus

Tier 9:

1. Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Darth Vader
2. Lumiya

(8.5)Darth Plagueis ??? Darth Tenebrous???
Tier 8: Lightsaber Skill


1. Darth Maul/Asajj Ventress/Exar Kun/General Grievous/Jaina Solo/Obi Wan

2. Revan/Ulic Qel Droma/Mara Jade Skywalker/Agen Kolar/Kit Fisto/Plo Koon

3. Darth Malgus/Kyle Katarn/Cade Skywalker/Darth Krayt/Saba Sebatyne

(7.5) Darth Venamis????
Tier 7:


1. Meetra Surik/Sora Bulq/Wrath II/Saesee Tiin/Darth Malak/Raskta Lsu/HoT/Kyp Durron

2. Corran Horn/Leia Organa Solo/Ki Adi Mundi/Qui Gon Jinn/Vodo Siosk Baas/Darth Bane/Quinlan Vos/Luminara Unduli/Ven Zallow/Scourge??/

3. Galen Marek??/Kenth Hamner/Anakin Solo/Shaak Ti/Adi Gallia/Aayla Secura/Xesh?

Tier 6:

1. Savage Opress/Darth Zannah/Jaden Korr/Eeth Koth/Darth Wyyrlok/Satele Shan

2. Bastila Shan/Anoon Bondara/Nejaa Halcyon/Kas'im/Barsenthor/Kao Cen Darach/Darth Nihl/Darth Talon/Tol Braga/

3 Gnost Dural/Darth Talon?

@Selenial

Depends of who is in her Tier. But top probably.

Originally posted by Selenial
Also, Aurbere votes tier 8.

Well, jeez, I guess I don't need to vote.

Originally posted by Selenial

Dafuq has Bastilla got on her, also Game mechanics. By your logic Atris lost in 10, and Atris is one of the best in the order, far superior to padawan Bastilla.


To be fair.to bastila, she was tortured and had to fight through the Leviathan along side Revan and Carth before confronting Malak. So he.didn't beat her at her best. That's a fact.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
To be fair.to bastila, she was tortured and had to fight through the Leviathan along side Revan and Carth before confronting Malak. So he.didn't beat her at her best. That's a fact.

Well, that's true.

Bastila (with help) also fought through Revan's flagship to confront him, so that could be a feat too.

@Carthage

Still, I'll be opting for Bulq in Tier 8. His saber duel with Windu was awesome, Quinlan defeated him because of his own arrogance. He got owned by Count Dooku, but so was Obi-Wan. At the time of duel on Ruul Bulq was also superior to Ventress. I would place him in the same degree of Tier 8 with Fisto. Or even above, we can vote it. just my opinion.
I would also place Revan as top Tier 8, not medium Tier 8. And I would place Grievous in medium Tier 8, not top.

Tier 10

1. GM Skywalker/DE Darth Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Darth Caedus

Tier 9:

1. Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker
2. Lumiya, Darth Vader, Darth Tenebrous


Tier 8: Lightsaber Skill


1. Darth Maul/Asajj Ventress/Exar Kun/Jaina Solo/Obi Wan/Sora Bulq/Darth Venamis/Revan/Darth Plagueis

2. Ulic Qel Droma/Mara Jade Skywalker/Agen Kolar/Kit Fisto/Plo Koon/Darth Malgus/General Grievous

3. Kyle Katarn/Cade Skywalker/Darth Krayt/Saba Sebatyne/Saesee Tiin/Qui Gon Jinn


Tier 7:

1. Meetra Surik/Wrath II/Darth Malak/Raskta Lsu/HoT/Kyp Durron

2. Corran Horn/Leia Organa Solo/Ki Adi Mundi/Vodo Siosk Baas/Darth Bane/Quinlan Vos/Luminara Unduli/Ven Zallow/Scourge??/

3. Galen Marek??/Kenth Hamner/Anakin Solo/Shaak Ti/Adi Gallia/Aayla Secura/Xesh?/Anoon Bondara/Kao Cen Darach

Tier 6:

1. Savage Opress/Darth Zannah/Jaden Korr/Eeth Koth/Darth Wyyrlok/Satele Shan

2. Bastila Shan/Nejaa Halcyon/Kas'im/Barsenthor/Darth Nihl/Darth Talon/Tol Braga/

3 Gnost Dural/Darth Talon?

This is what I would actually change.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
To be fair.to bastila, she was tortured and had to fight through the Leviathan along side Revan and Carth before confronting Malak. So he.didn't beat her at her best. That's a fact.
Incorrect. I suggest you should play Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic by BioWare to comprehend this foreign event to you.
Bastila Shan states that, even upon Revan's awakening from torture, that he has nearly "fully recovered." By the fight, he would have been.

@Ant
Do you consider Malak as superior duelist to Revan?

What incarnation of Revan are you referring to?

How would you compare Malak to:
1) Prime Revan
2) Reborn Revan
3) Darth Revan

Depends... too many variables, to be honest. Probably all on the same level with Forge!Malak.

I also consider Malak as stronger then most here believe him to be. The main reason, is that none besides Revan could challange him at his time (excluding Vitiate).

lol.

to Revan being tier 8 duelist, tier 9 force user, and tier 9 overall.

Lumiya is way too high.

^
I have no idea, since I'm not interested in EU after ROTJ. But from what i read about her, and since she started as someone like Jerrec or Mara Jade, it's also hard to believe for me, that she wasn in legendary Vader's league. I feel (but I don't have a knowledge to actually state that) that she should be at least 1 Tier below.

Easily. IIRC, in one of the books she was losing a duel to a fodder Jedi healer.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65585Db5y1r5iltfo1_500.gif

How about your tone it down a notch hm?



https://31.media.tumblr.com/9b6af30687915d7c6c72e8517a8be30e/tumblr_mrjzsbYgVw1sw6yplo1_500.gif

No. she states the following:

Bastila: "Don't try to move to quicky, you might not be fully recovered yet. Admiral Karath had his guards continue to torture you even after you passed out. "
-- KoTOR: Leviathan level.

She doesn't say he was fully recovered broski and I was talking about how Bastila was not at her best in that fight and she along with the crew(Revan and Kaidan AlenkoCarth) were tortured, had to go through the Leviathan forces(which would tire them out) and then she - alone, took on Malak. Clearly she wasn't at her best when she fought Malak. Again, that is a fact.

Originally posted by ares834
Lumiya is way too high.

She bested ROTJ Luke and fought evenly with Luke in their final duel in Sacrifice, this earns her place up there

@ MCP will make your adjustments in a bit, but if Tiin moves up Malak moves up imo

RotJ Luke was struggling because he was unfamiliar with her weapon and unable to counter it. Their duel in Sacrifice was utter PIS.

Yeah. I completely forgot about Anakin good points all around Mcp

Hmm Tiin is a bit featless, but he has some hype. He was, after Anakin, the finest pilot in the Order, his TK Raw power was comperable/superior to Mace's, he was the greatest telepath in the Order and he's noted among great duelist like Fisto or Kolar.
Against Palpatine, many Jedi masters would down easily. I would place him in the same leage with Kolar and Fist (as nothing suggest, that he was well below them) and it looks like his potential in the Force was considerable.

Originally posted by ares834
RotJ Luke was struggling because he was unfamiliar with her weapon and unable to counter it. Their duel in Sacrifice was utter PIS.

If you're referring to their final duel in Sacrifice where he decapitates her, there is no "PIS" about it the text more or less says it. Either way either fights are still applicable feats, most fighters have low showings

Most have high as well. At the end of the day, Lumiya was unable to overcome a fodder Jedi until the intervention of Alema. That's not the prowess of a character in one of the uppermost tiers. And Luke kicked her ass regardless; it was a very lopsided battle.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Bastila: "Don't try to move to quicky, you might not be fully recovered yet. Admiral Karath had his guards continue to torture you even after you passed out. "
-- KoTOR: Leviathan level.

She doesn't say he was fully recovered broski and I was talking about how Bastila was not at her best in that fight and she along with the crew(Revan and Kaidan AlenkoCarth) were tortured, had to go through the Leviathan forces(which would tire them out) and then she - alone, took on Malak. Clearly she wasn't at her best when she fought Malak. Again, that is a fact.
Precisely, that was what I was referring to. I am glad you managed to find some information on the game, it will help further your knowledge on Star Wars lore! I also suggest you to watch the Star Wars movie saga. It will help you on debates and make you perhaps a credible debater, and not laughing stock for the rest of the board. Best wishes! Friendly suggestions aside, look at the quote you posted. By the time of Revan's awoke, she already states you might not be "fully recovered." Fully as in completely... no injuries. If you would have played the game, you would then know a companion character goes and frees them. Then they run around door-to-door, killing Sith Troopers and Dark Jedi. By then, Revan would have absolutely recovered, given that by the time he woke up, Bastila directly says he is either back-to-normal, or almost there. Sourcebooks and canonical guides additionally state that Carth was the major participator in the fight against Admiral Saul, which makes logical sense given their history together. I suggest you try not to use fabricated opinions as fact, also. It will make members, who already just ignore your posts, do it even more. Note that, assuming you have at least watched a video on the subject so you have a pathetic yet existent knowledge on the subject, Bastila Shan directly states Revan suffered the greatest amount of torture by far. Carth Onasi, also a member of the video game, agrees with her. If Revan is fully recovered by then, all logic suggests Bastila Shan would be too. Also, to help you out, I got the Amazon link to the Star Wars saga movies. I suggest you watch them! :
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Episode-Phantom-Widescreen/dp/B00003CX5P
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006HBUJ/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2/184-1224766-5322046?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=13H5X4A6S1WE9Q7S8QQH&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687742&pf_rd_i=B00003CX5P
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005JLXH/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_3/184-1224766-5322046?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=13H5X4A6S1WE9Q7S8QQH&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687742&pf_rd_i=B00003CX5P
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FQJAIW/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/184-1224766-5322046?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=13H5X4A6S1WE9Q7S8QQH&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687742&pf_rd_i=B00003CX5P
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Versions-Two-Disc-Widescreen/dp/B000FQJAJG/ref=sr_1_6?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1419373755&sr=1-6&keywords=Mark+Hamill
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Versions-Two-Disc-Widescreen/dp/B000FQVX78/ref=sr_1_10?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1419373755&sr=1-10&keywords=Mark+Hamill

Unless there is anyone I'm missing, when I get back home I'll make some more edits and the lightsabers tier is pretty much done. If someone wants to make a tier 5 and lower, be my guest

Next up is force abilities

Originally posted by carthage
She bested ROTJ Luke and fought evenly with Luke in their final duel in Sacrifice, this earns her place up there

@ MCP will make your adjustments in a bit, but if Tiin moves up Malak moves up imo

She was a rookie duelist, surprise and esotericness (not a word) was all that got her past Luke.

Which is why she was able to hold her against him three times

Originally posted by carthage
Unless there is anyone I'm missing, when I get back home I'll make some more edits and the lightsabers tier is pretty much done. If someone wants to make a tier 5 and lower, be my guest

Next up is force abilities

If you move up Malak simply due to Ants raging hard on for anything to do with Revan this list loses all credibility... Don't do stuff just to spite Neph.

Surik on the other hand, Fated come on brah help me get her up.

Mother, you asking Fated for help demolishes your credibility.
And oh yeah, need to reply to you on Malak vs Exile. I'll do that soon.

I'm not seeing any reason why either of them are anything more than a low tier 8. I can make adjustments but so far no one seems to know which one is better out of those two. I also don't see any issue on why its controversial they're on the same tier

Sort it out between yourselves, hehe

Shifting between my omniscient, dick personality to my affectionate, serious personality for Selenial for the debate will be hard. :mmm:

Plz hurry too we need to move onto force abilities and then overall and then I'll pm Babading when it's all over and done with to make it a sticky

Until the. I'm going to keep them high tier 7

Originally posted by carthage
I'm not seeing any reason why either of them are anything more than a low tier 8. I can make adjustments but so far no one seems to know which one is better out of those two. I also don't see any issue on why its controversial they're on the same tier

Sort it out between yourselves, hehe

It's more that you're even contemplating putting Tiin above them.

Originally posted by carthage
Plz hurry too we need to move onto force abilities and then overall and then I'll pm Babading when it's all over and done with to make it a sticky

Until the. I'm going to keep them high tier 7
There is no rush.

McP wanted to move Tiin up, and All i said was if Tiin is a low tier 8 than I'll raise Malak.

But like I said you two sort it out

Tiin being anywhere near the Exile, Revan, or Malak is disgusting.

Originally posted by Selenial
What? Revan schooled him.
"Malak's most distinguishing feature, his steel jaw, disguises a vicious lightsaber wound inflicted by his former Master in their desperate final battle."
--Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith

Redeemed Revans battle was brutal because he had to beat Malak 4 ****ing times.
*3 times.

Superior as confirmed by what source?
"Malak was always the 'brawn' to Revan's 'brain' - he was renowned for his combat abilities, and I always felt that he was even better than Revan with a lightsaber."
--Drew Karpyshyn (Author)

And how does Malaks combat abilities being equal to Revans tactical ability put him anywhere near Surik?
Malak having as much of an impact on the Mandalorian Wars through combat as the greatest Force-sensitive military leader in history is pretty insane.


Dafuq has Bastilla got on her
"Though there was immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy."
--Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

also Game mechanics.
Cut-scenes, dear. And also, double-standards.


Originally posted by Selenial
By your logic Atris lost in 10, and Atris is one of the best in the order
That's great... I care a lot.

Desperate final battle in that Malak was desperate, comprehension child, work on it.

He consumed 3 Jedi. Fight -> Jedi -> Fight -> Jedi -> Fight -> Jedi -> Fight.... Wasn't it? That's 4 times.

If you take Authors words that seriously, Meetra is confirmed better than Revan since he's "proficient" in each form and she mastered all of them.

The Shan Bloodline quote comes after Revan tossed his DNA In there, it's not all from Bastilla. And one lowly Sith Lord created Vitiate, so yeh. But most of that power is Revan, obviously. Her parents were nothing.

They carried on fighting after the cutscene, so no.

Watch your attitude child.

Originally posted by Selenial
Desperate final battle in that Malak was desperate, comprehension child, work on it.
"...in their desperate final battle."
"...in their desperate final battle."
"...in their desperate final battle."
"...in their desperate final battle."
"...in their desperate final battle."
"...in their desperate final battle."


Originally posted by Selenial
He consumed 3 Jedi. Fight -> Jedi -> Fight -> Jedi -> Fight -> Jedi -> Fight.... Wasn't it? That's 4 times.
2 Jedi.

Originally posted by Selenial
If you take Authors words that seriously, Meetra is confirmed better than Revan since he's "proficient" in each form and she mastered all of them.
Mastery is great, but so is experience, speed and precognition. Mastery over the forms sure helped Cin Drallig a lot!

Originally posted by Selenial
The Shan Bloodline quote comes after Revan tossed his DNA in there


Originally posted by Selenial
Her parents were nothing.
The Ones was pretty immense, IIRC.

Originally posted by Selenial
They carried on fighting after the cutscene, so no.
By the time Revan got in the Ebon Hawk, the Sith forces were already gathering shit to capture him.
Note that with Saul dead and them expecting Malak to kill Revan, Malak would have had to contact them.
They wouldn't dare try to capture Malak's prey without his permission, especially knowing he came there for it.

Originally posted by Selenial
Watch your attitude child.
Love you.

@Ant
I just wanted Tiin to be on the same league with Kolar, Fisto and the rest masters of their level.

I feel ya, broski. Issue is the gap between Kenobi and Sidious is only one tier, so it gives a false impression to be honest.

But like, how does that even remotely say Revan nearly lost? The actual depiction shows that Malak was out of his depth. You're taking one word from a stupidly obscure source over the actual material were presented with.

Conceded on the Jedi. I thought it was game mechanics and that it was 3-4 unless Revan destroyed them first

So Surik had less experience despite fighting in the same war, and the single handedly slaying hundreds of people using lightsabers, with her own lightsabers? Art thou serious, Anthony?

If you think a quote about a bloodline 300 years later shows her power, I agree, you're high.

Lol?

And how long was it before he was at the hawk? Hmm?
More than 15 seconds.

''Below Maul in power.''

ILS : I don't see Maul replicating what she did to that iteration of Galen, especially considering Felucia was tilted towards the Dark Side at that time. Ti also has her feat of deflecting Grievous' lightsaber blade enough for it not to get past her small barrier, and she has superior accolades to Maul like having "legendary" strength in the Force, and being a beacon of light in the Darkness on Felucia.

Lmfao.

1- Are you taking TFU force feats seriously ? Then you need to say Kota > Kenobi in the force. Which is stupid.
2- How about using TK on Grievous itself, instead of his sword. LOL. Mace crushed that piece of metal rubbish with a force crush, and you put Shaak Ti ahead of Mace because she deflected Grievous's sword with TK ?

Originally posted by Selenial
But like, how does that even remotely say Revan nearly lost? The actual depiction shows that Malak was out of his depth. You're taking one word from a stupidly obscure source over the actual material were presented with.
The only other descriptions of the fight is just that Revan won and removed Malak's jaw. This describes the difficulty it took Revan to do such.

Kewl.

Thou is serious, *tries to remember your name* erm, Selenial?
We can debate this more in depth once other points are cleared up.

FBGM. But nah, she does have combat feats. Ta-daaaa:

Bastila Shan defeats a freaking DARK JEDI!
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3845738-9356u.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/fba944a0689ea20d7969b3cb1b78ff6a/tumblr_inline_mop2qgtnLO1qz4rgp.gif
--- --- ---
If that wasn't enough for you, she can kicked a guard to death in one hit.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3845742-935an.gif http://i.imgur.com/mT48qh.jpg
--- --- ---
She pulls a Darth Bandon on a guard:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3845744-935cr.gif
--- --- ---
And her main feat, she TK's Revan, Jolee, and Juhani:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlodmblZHNs&t=2m26s
--- --- ---
Also, she has a ton of quotes over how she's among the greatest heroes of Jedi Order, Republic, and Jedi Civil War.
Oh, and a couple sources link her greatness with Battle Meditation with her mastery command over the Force. Example:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3845734-bastilashanbattlemeditationmastery.jpg

****, didn't mean to hit send. Hold on Selenial, let me reply to the rest.
EDIT: Here we go:
Originally posted by Selenial
And how long was it before he was at the hawk? Hmm?
More than 15 seconds.
Nope. The Hawk was ironically and somehow stationed one short hallway and door away from them.

Oh yeah, by the way, since this isn't really a debate and rather a fun discussion, going to throw in that Bastila Shan was a "highly skilled duelist."

So the only sustenance in your argument was that Bastilla killed a dark Jedi.

You're hyping Surik, she killed hundreds.

Originally posted by Marco1907
''Below Maul in power.''

ILS : I don't see Maul replicating what she did to that iteration of Galen, especially considering Felucia was tilted towards the Dark Side at that time. Ti also has her feat of deflecting Grievous' lightsaber blade enough for it not to get past her small barrier, and she has superior accolades to Maul like having "legendary" strength in the Force, and being a beacon of light in the Darkness on Felucia.

Lmfao.

1- Are you taking TFU force feats seriously ? Then you need to say Kota > Kenobi in the force. Which is stupid.
2- How about using TK on Grievous itself, instead of his sword. LOL. Mace crushed that piece of metal rubbish with a force crush, and you put Shaak Ti ahead of Mace because she deflected Grievous's sword with TK ? 1. They're a part of Legends canon so.. ehm.. yes. Kenobi has nothing to do with this debate.

2. A lightsaber blade can cut through durasteel without friction, cut through beings who live in lava, ect, so Shaak Ti putting up a barrier potent enough to deflect a lightsaber blade is a good power feat. Mace crushing Grievous' armor is a decent power feat but it's not groundbreaking.

Well, this de-escalated quickly.

Originally posted by Selenial
But like, how does that even remotely say Revan nearly lost? The actual depiction shows that Malak was out of his depth. You're taking one word from a stupidly obscure source over the actual material were presented with.


Reminds me of someone else that does that. Can't remember who that was, though...

Sooo... Meetra > Malak, right? That seems to be how that little 'debate' turned out.