Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

South Supreme Kai:
http://s30.postimg.org/qer8mljip/image.png



VS.



SS3 Goku:
http://s30.postimg.org/nje5fqfip/imageedit_4_5295517325.gif


-Assume this is Buu saga Goku with an undead/halo body.
-Fight takes place on Supreme Kai's world.

Who wins?

Since South Kai only existed in the anime, I'm assuming anime cannon here, in which case Goku stomps.

He was able to defeat Kid Buu "immediately", at full power. South Kai got shwrecked, and absorbed. All he managed to do was take an arm off.

Based on statements/feats from the manga: Buff Buu(Southern Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu>>Kid Buu. For Southern Kaioshin to increase Pure Buu's power to beyond Super Buu-level means he must have been extremely powerful--moreso than Pure Buu by a good margin, imo. Regardless, Buu doesn't typically absorb others unless they possess power ~/> his own. That said, I feel confident in assuming that Southern Kaioshin was around Pure Buu's level at the very least.

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on statements/feats from the manga: Buff Buu(Southern Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu>>Kid Buu. For Southern Kaioshin to increase Pure Buu's power to beyond Super Buu-level means he must have been extremely powerful--moreso than Pure Buu by a good margin, imo. Regardless, Buu doesn't typically absorb others unless they possess power ~/> his own. That said, I feel confident in assuming that Southern Kaioshin was around Pure Buu's level at the very least.

Um... No. Buff Buu had no feats from the manga. Only that he was stronger than Super Buu, which Kid Buu himself was as well, going by Goku's attitude towards fighting him.

Also, Buu has absorbed a lot of people weaker than him, including Piccolo, Goten and Trunks.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Um... No. Buff Buu had no feats from the manga. Only that he was stronger than Super Buu, which Kid Buu himself was as well, going by Goku's attitude towards fighting him. Um, I know? Ergo: "Buff Buu(Southern Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu."

In the manga, Goku said that he was "FAR" weaker than Super Buu, but managed to give Pure Buu a good fight even at less than full power, and stated that he could easily destroy him at full power.
ie. Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu.

This isn't canonically debatable. If you try to use your "anime canon>manga canon" troll-logic, it will be ignored and possibly reported. Just letting you know that now.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Also, Buu has absorbed a lot of people weaker than him, including Piccolo, Goten and Trunks. Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo just happened to be standing right next to him at the time, so he was a packaged deal.

Again, Buu typically absorbs beings ~/> himself. Obvious examples:
Mr. Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan
Vegito

Point: Buu absorbs beings to become more powerful. I doubt he would have absorbed the Southern Kaioshin unless he gleaned the same result: added power... This was made even more blatant when Goku/Vegeta noted that Buff Buu's ki>Super Buu's ki.
ie. Buff Buu>Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu>Mr. Buu.

Originally posted by Galan007
Um, I know? Ergo: "Buff Buu(Southern Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu."

In the manga, Goku said that he was "FAR" weaker than Super Buu, but managed to give Pure Buu a good fight even at less than full power, and stated that he could easily destroy him at full power.
ie. Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu.

This isn't canonically debatable. If you try to use your "anime canon>manga canon" troll-logic, it will be ignored and possibly reported. Just letting you know that now.

Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo just happened to be standing right next to him at the time, so he was a packaged deal.

Again, Buu typically absorbs beings ~/> himself. Obvious examples:
Mr. Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan
Vegito

Point: Buu absorbs beings to become more powerful. I doubt he would have absorbed the Southern Kaioshin unless he gleaned the same result: added power... This was made even more blatant when Goku/Vegeta noted that Buff Buu's ki>Super Buu's ki.
ie. Buff Buu>Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu>Mr. Buu. Originally posted by Galan007
Um, I know? Ergo: "Buff Buu(Southern Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu."

In the manga, Goku said that he was "FAR" weaker than Super Buu, but managed to give Pure Buu a good fight even at less than full power, and stated that he could easily destroy him at full power.
ie. Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu.

This isn't canonically debatable. If you try to use your "anime canon>manga canon" troll-logic, it will be ignored and possibly reported. Just letting you know that now.

Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo just happened to be standing right next to him at the time, so he was a packaged deal.

Again, Buu typically absorbs beings ~/> himself. Obvious examples:
Mr. Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan
Vegito

Point: Buu absorbs beings to become more powerful. I doubt he would have absorbed the Southern Kaioshin unless he gleaned the same result: added power... This was made even more blatant when Goku/Vegeta noted that Buff Buu's ki>Super Buu's ki.
ie. Buff Buu>Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu>Mr. Buu. i think goku will win here

Originally posted by Galan007
Um, I know? Ergo: "Buff Buu(Southern Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu."

In the manga, Goku said that he was "FAR" weaker than Super Buu, but managed to give Pure Buu a good fight even at less than full power, and stated that he could easily destroy him at full power.
ie. Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu.

This isn't canonically debatable. If you try to use your "anime canon>manga canon" troll-logic, it will be ignored and possibly reported. Just letting you know that now.

Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo just happened to be standing right next to him at the time, so he was a packaged deal.

Again, Buu typically absorbs beings ~/> himself. Obvious examples:
Mr. Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan
Vegito

Point: Buu absorbs beings to become more powerful. I doubt he would have absorbed the Southern Kaioshin unless he gleaned the same result: added power... This was made even more blatant when Goku/Vegeta noted that Buff Buu's ki>Super Buu's ki.
ie. Buff Buu>Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu>Mr. Buu.

Ah, good to know you concede. Plus, tertiary cannon supports my claims as well, so... You lose.

Also, Buu typically uses absorption as a last resort. He absorbed Piccolo because he was smarter than all the others. That gave him a much needed advantage(apparently).

All the other times he's used absorption was because he was losing a fight, or because he wanted to kill someone. Or simply because he was in danger. He's never done it otherwise. That simply means he wanted to kill West kai and couldn't do so otherwise.

Also, you're using anime cannon yourself, pal. Goku said in the manga that he couldn't kill Kid Buu, because he overestimated SSJ3, but in the anime, he said he could kill him easily at full power.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
That simply means he wanted to kill West kai and couldn't do so otherwise. No shit. That's what I've been saying.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Also, you're using anime cannon yourself, pal. Goku said in the manga that he couldn't kill Kid Buu, because he overestimated SSJ3, but in the anime, he said he could kill him easily at full power. From the VIZ manga...
Vegeta: "Finish Buu off, Kakarrot! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you'll be able to easily obliterate him."

So are you THIS full of crap all the time, or are you just selectively trolling me? Either way, it's hilarious.

Originally posted by Galan007
No shit. That's what I've been saying.

From the VIZ manga...
Vegeta: "Finish Buu off, Kakarrot! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you'll be able to easily obliterate him."

So are you THIS full of crap all the time, or are you just selectively trolling me? Either way, it's hilarious.

So what's your point? He couldn't beat SSJ3 Goku either.

You're forgetting that right after Vegeta said that, Goku replied by saying, "That's what I've been trying to do this whole time, but I haven't been able to yet! Darn, if only I had a minute to charge, I'd be able to reach full power!", disproving Vegeta's current statement, and even surprising him. None of these statements suggest that SSJ3 Goku could beat him by himself. In fact, they suggest the exact opposite, since Goku specifically said he hadn't been, "able to yet.". This means that manga Goku couldn't beat Kid Buu, unless he had a full minute to charge up extra ki to attack him.

Anime Goku only needed the minute to charge because he had been going easy and wasting ki, so that Vegeta would have a turn. I can provide the scene.

Literally none of that has anything to so with what I said.

Originally posted by Galan007
Literally none of that has anything to so with what I said.

How's that?

You said South Kai was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, because Kid Buu had to absorb him to beat him. But Kid Buu couldn't beat SSJ3 Goku at full power either.

You said, "From the VIZ manga...
Vegeta: "Finish Buu off, Kakarrot! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you'll be able to easily obliterate him."

So are you THIS full of crap all the time, or are you just selectively trolling me? Either way, it's hilarious.", so I gave the rest of the scene, where Goku in the manga specifically said he needed a minute to charge to beat Kid Buu, whereas he had been toying with him to give Vegeta a chance to fight him in the anime, meaning he could have beaten him at the start of the fight.

So in the manga, SSJ3 Goku(at full power) > South Kai. In the anime, SSJ3 Goku(period) > South Kai. That was my point.

Maybe you should take some english classes.

We never saw any part of South Kaioshin's battle with Pure Buu in the manga--all we know is that Buu felt the need to absorb him. We also know that Buff Buu(South Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu. That said, South Kaioshin may have been effortlessly stomping Pure Buu, OR they may have just been peers... The manga didn't tell us one way or the other.


Either way, I'm not sure why you're throwing these red-herrings my way. If you're looking for my opinion of this battle, please refer to my first post in this thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
We never saw any part of South Kaioshin's battle with Pure Buu in the manga--all we know is that Buu felt the need to absorb him. We also know that Buff Buu(South Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu. That said, South Kaioshin may have been effortlessly stomping Pure Buu, OR they may have just been peers... The manga didn't tell us one way or the other.


Either way, I'm not sure why you're throwing these red-herrings my way. If you're looking for my opinion of this battle, please refer to my first post in this thread.

Have you not understood this entire argument so far? The point was to determine that someone who is stronger than Buu can kill him. If South Kai was really as strong as you believe, then Buu would have been killed by him, since he was fighting all the Kai's separately, 1-on-1. There would have been no reason for South Kai to be exploited in cockiness, or give mercy to Buu, since he already killed a kai or two.

Of course, there is the slight probability that South Kai was stronger than Kid Buu, but the most likely thing to have happened was that Buu simply deemed him strong enough to be worthy of absorption. In fact, the only one throwing up red-herrings here is you, considering you're trying to justify the thread itself by assuming that South Kai was as stupid and cocky as Gotenks and Gohan, even though he had millions of years of fighting experience above them. All you're doing is assuming the height of his power, which is not even gaugeable. For all we know, he could have been stronger than Bills, but was simply fooling around and let Buu absorb him.

That assumption though is completely ludicrous, and based on nothing. Which is the same thing your argument here is based on.

This was my original contention:
Originally posted by Galan007
That said, I feel confident in assuming that Southern Kaioshin was around Pure Buu's level at the very least.

What are you still blabbering about?

Originally posted by Galan007
This was my original contention:


What are you still blabbering about?

Blabbering? It's ironic that you always end up using the perfect words to insult your own argument, but use them to insult mine.

Anyway, my point was to:

1. Prove that South Kai was weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

and

2. Prove that Anime cannon and Manga cannon are two very different things. Since South Kai was only physically given any feats in the anime, I was using that. I'm not saying that anime cannon>manga cannon, but there are instances where that is true, which is only when the anime is supported by the Daizenshuu or Toriyama himself.

Cool. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said here.

Whatever bro, lol.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Since South Kai only existed in the anime,
Well technically he shown in the manga as well.

http://i.imgur.com/Rqh79DY.png

Go easy on him Astner. SSJGogeta hasn't actually read Dragon Ball, so he wouldn't know that.

Originally posted by Astner
Well technically he shown in the manga as well.

http://i.imgur.com/Rqh79DY.png

I did forget that he was physically shown when I said that, but he still wasn't shown fighting Buu, which makes his power entirely presumptuous at that point, since we have no real feats to go by.

However, we can assume he was probably strong enough to do some damage to Kid Buu, but simply not even close to what Goku was capable of. This is because he was unable to kill Buu on his own, which proves that he's obviously inferior to him, and therefore SSJ3 Goku.

Also, we of course have to exclude PIS from the Buu saga, because Gohan should have killed Buu when he first showed up, and not sat around and let him absorb Gotenks and Piccolo.

Pure Buu absorbing South Kaioshin certainly doesn't mean Buu was more powerful--he actually could have been a lot weaker for all we know.

Mystic Gohan, for example, was FAR more powerful than Buuccolo(as stated by Goku), but was still able to be absorbed by a 'Buu-Goo-sneak-attack'. That said, the same thing may have very well happened to South Kaioshin in the manga... We'll never know one way or the other.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I did forget that he was physically shown when I said that, but he still wasn't shown fighting Buu, which makes his power entirely presumptuous at that point, since we have no real feats to go by.

However, we can assume he was probably strong enough to do some damage to Kid Buu, but simply not even close to what Goku was capable of. This is because he was unable to kill Buu on his own, which proves that he's obviously inferior to him, and therefore SSJ3 Goku.

Also, we of course have to exclude PIS from the Buu saga, because Gohan should have killed Buu when he first showed up, and not sat around and let him absorb Gotenks and Piccolo.

Well the fact that he was absorbed even in the manga is a big indicator that he was extremely powerful against kid buu.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I did forget that he was physically shown when I said that, but he still wasn't shown fighting Buu, which makes his power entirely presumptuous at that point, since we have no real feats to go by.
I'm assuming that he was around Kid Buu's level since he wasn't able to destroy Buu but conditioned him to absorb him.

Originally posted by Galan007
Um, I know? Ergo: "Buff Buu(Southern Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu."

In the manga, Goku said that he was "FAR" weaker than Super Buu, but managed to give Pure Buu a good fight even at less than full power, and stated that he could easily destroy him at full power.
ie. Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu.

This isn't canonically debatable. If you try to use your "anime canon>manga canon" troll-logic, it will be ignored and possibly reported. Just letting you know that now.

Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, and Piccolo just happened to be standing right next to him at the time, so he was a packaged deal.

Again, Buu typically absorbs beings ~/> himself. Obvious examples:
Mr. Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan
Vegito

Point: Buu absorbs beings to become more powerful. I doubt he would have absorbed the Southern Kaioshin unless he gleaned the same result: added power... This was made even more blatant when Goku/Vegeta noted that Buff Buu's ki>Super Buu's ki.
ie. Buff Buu>Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Goku~/>Pure Buu>Mr. Buu.

Disagree with this. Goku and Vegeta said that Buu power was increasing instead of decreasing. No where was it mentioned that he was losing power...the opposite was said. Kid Buu is more powerful than all of them per Vegeta and Goku admission. Goku even tells us that he is going to be much stronger than he was before.

He was getting stronger as he was turning from Super Buu to Buff Buu.

Super Buu was "far too strong" for Goku and Vegeta yet Goku fought evenly with Kid Buu. That settles it right there

Originally posted by carver9
Disagree with this. Goku and Vegeta said that Buu power was increasing instead of decreasing. No where was it mentioned that he was losing power...the opposite was said. Kid Buu is more powerful than all of them per Vegeta and Goku admission. Goku even tells us that he is going to be much stronger than he was before.

Super Boo turned into Buff Boo who quickly turned into Kid Boo. Both Goku and Vegeta made light of Kid Boo but were scared of Buff Boo.

Kid Boo ain't shit.

Originally posted by juggerman
He was getting stronger as he was turning from Super Buu to Buff Buu.

Super Buu was "far too strong" for Goku and Vegeta yet Goku fought evenly with Kid Buu. That settles it right there Exactly. I don't know how many times this needs to be stated before he gets it...

Why did he go from Buff to Kid? He never spat out South so.. thoughts?

That is one of the many inconsistencies in the series. Fat Buu permenently retained the Dai Kaioshin's jolly/peaceful demeanor after absorbing him, but couldn't hang on to South Kaioshin's uber-powerful traits as well? Yeah, that just doesn't mesh with Buu's overall characterization.

It would seem that the only reason Buu was depicted in his 'Buff' form at all was to introduce the story of how Pure Buu became Fat Buu. /shrug

Because it was so vital to absorbing Fat Buu that it must be in that single scan? Dammit manga.

So where does Buff come on the ranking list?

I have it like this:
Buuhan>>>Buutenks>Mystic Gohan>>Buff Buu>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ3 Goku(full-power)>>Pure Buu~/>Fat Buu>>Mr. Buu>SSJ2 Vegeta.

Admittedly, it's near-impossible to say exactly where Buff Buu ranks. All we know is that he is more powerful than Super Buu. How much more powerful is entirely open to opinion.

Originally posted by juggerman
He was getting stronger as he was turning from Super Buu to Buff Buu.

Super Buu was "far too strong" for Goku and Vegeta yet Goku fought evenly with Kid Buu. That settles it right there

Doesn't make one bit of sense. You're basically saying that he was getting stronger then all of a sudden he became weaker. That goes against everything Goku and Vegeta said and no such thing was mentioned from them. Goku tells us that he is getting more powerful during the transformation. It can not get any clearer than this.

-GOKU EXPLICITLY STATED THAT SUPER BUU WAS FAR MORE POWERFUL THAN HIMSELF.
-BUFF BUU WAS EXPLICITLY STATED TO BE MORE POWERFUL THAN SUPER BUU.
-IT WAS EXPLICITLY SHOWN THAT SSJ3 GOKU WAS ON PAR WITH PURE BUU, EVEN AT LESS THAN FULL POWER.
-VEGETA EXPLICITLY STATED THAT SSJ3 GOKU COULD EASILY OBLITERATE PURE BUU AT FULL POWER, AND GOKU EXPLICITLY AGREED.

SO AGAIN:
BUFF BUU>SUPER BUU>>>SSJ3 GOKU(FULL-POWER)>>SSJ3 GOKU(<FULL-POWER)~PURE BUU.


What exactly isn't computing here..?

Lol...dang Galan. Did you just scream at me?

No. It's just harder for you to ignore big letters.

Originally posted by carver9
Doesn't make one bit of sense. You're basically saying that he was getting stronger then all of a sudden he became weaker. That goes against everything Goku and Vegeta said and no such thing was mentioned from them. Goku tells us that he is getting more powerful during the transformation. It can not get any clearer than this.

I never said it made sense but that's how it is. Look here:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3157-13/dragon-ball/chapter-508.html

^ Here as Super Buu is turning into Buff Buu they comment he is getting stronger.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-2/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html

^ Then as he's turning from Buff to Kid they say he's still changing. Notice they purposely do not say he's still gaining strength. Just "changing"

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-3/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html

^ Then, seconds after feeling this newest "change", Vegeta is confident they can "handle that". After pooping themselves at Buff Buu's power, do you really think they would be so eger to "handle" something even stronger. Not to mention Goku admitting they didn't stand a chance against Super Buu here:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3156-12/dragon-ball/chapter-507.html

^ He had zero reason to lie here.

And don't forget this:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-4/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html

^ Akira could have had the Elder say anything there. He specifically avoided saying "the most powerful" and instead said "the most dangerous".

Hopefully it's no longer in question

Furthermore, I can confirm that all of those scanlations are pretty much spot-on with the VIZ translations. The only real difference is the last scan you posted: Elder Kaioshin doesn't say "most dangerous" in the VIZ translation, he says "most difficult". Pure Buu was the "most difficult" version to control.

Well FINE!

That's actually good, though, because now carver(or anyone for that matter) can't say something like: "Well if Kid Buu wasn't the most powerful Buu, then why does Elder Kai say he's the 'most dangerous' Buu!!11!1!???!!1?" ... I've seen several people try to argue that over the years.

The fact is that Elder Kaioshin didn't comment on Pure Buu's threat-level at all. He simply stated that Pure Buu was the "most difficult" to control, which makes a lot more sense, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
No. It's just harder for you to ignore big letters. lol

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I did forget that he was physically shown when I said that, but he still wasn't shown fighting Buu, which makes his power entirely presumptuous at that point, since we have no real feats to go by.

However, we can assume he was probably strong enough to do some damage to Kid Buu, but simply not even close to what Goku was capable of. This is because he was unable to kill Buu on his own, which proves that he's obviously inferior to him, and therefore SSJ3 Goku.

Also, we of course have to exclude PIS from the Buu saga, because Gohan should have killed Buu when he first showed up, and not sat around and let him absorb Gotenks and Piccolo. Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I did forget that he was physically shown when I said that, but he still wasn't shown fighting Buu, which makes his power entirely presumptuous at that point, since we have no real feats to go by.

However, we can assume he was probably strong enough to do some damage to Kid Buu, but simply not even close to what Goku was capable of. This is because he was unable to kill Buu on his own, which proves that he's obviously inferior to him, and therefore SSJ3 Goku.

Also, we of course have to exclude PIS from the Buu saga, because Gohan should have killed Buu when he first showed up, and not sat around and let him absorb Gotenks and Piccolo. i think goku will win here