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How's Ben matching up to his dear old dad when dad was his age?

Poorly.

Ben should win.

Not convinced he can match Luke in any combative area, tbh.

Luke

Yeah, Luke.

....well, that doesn't speak well of Luke's training, since he's been personally training his son ever since Jacen turned evil. Doesn't speak well of Jacen's training program either.

And Ben had a lot more training then ROTJ Luke ever had.

Originally posted by Angelalex242

And Ben had a lot more training then ROTJ Luke ever had.

And his showings are still relatively unimpressive. Ben might combatively be the weakest Skywalker, tbh.

All I can say is Luke must be a lousy ass trainer, for all that he's a rank 10 everything himself. I mean, seriously, if he can't train his son to beat his past self up, what does he think he's doing?

He certainly has all the motivation in the world to train Ben to be the best he can be, as Luke sure as HELL does not want to outlive his son. Outliving Mara nearly destroyed him by itself.

Or Luke is just naturally better than his son...?

Different people train at different paces. This speaks far more to the fact that Luke was a prodigy rather than any lack in his ability to train. Luke, after all, trained many incredibly powerful Jedi.

Luke curbstomps poor little Ben.

Beating Vader automatically makes him able to stomp Ben.

Don't get me wrong, Ben's no slouch, but he'e never even come close to injuring Luke, except maybe before he became a Jedi.

Well...Luke didn't so much overpower Vader as save his soul and render him Anakin once more. The 2nd Death Star duel....one cannot say Vader was trying. The Vader that got overpowered was about 90 percent redeemed already and not really giving it his all. If we could see under his mask, I'd question if his eyes were even still yellow at the point his hand got sliced off.

Then again, redeeming his father is far more awesome a feat then killing him ever could've been.

Which, of course, was George Lucas's point in that fight.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
One cannot say Vader was trying.

RotJ novel disagrees with you, tbh.



More like 10%.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well...Luke didn't so much overpower Vader as save his soul and render him Anakin once more. The 2nd Death Star duel....one cannot say Vader was trying. The Vader that got overpowered was about 90 percent redeemed already and not really giving it his all.

Then again, redeeming his father is far more awesome a feat then killing him ever could've been.

Which, of course, was George Lucas's point in that fight.

Lol, no, Luke got pissed and kicked Vader's ass in a legit fight, Vader was not holding back, as believable as it seemed he was. He was trying to kill Luke, he almost killed him last time they fought.

Pretty sure both of you are equally wrong, tbh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Pretty sure both of you are equally wrong, tbh. When is it shown that Vader held back even slightly?

Redemption has to have a certain gradualness to it. The Vader that Luke surrenders to is 10% redeemed, and thus saying things like 'It's too late for me, son...' By the time he senses a sister, it's something like the half way point. The inverse Dun Moch has been doing a number on him all the time. When his hand is sliced off it's about 90. Then, as he watches Sidious do his lightning torture, his redemption finishes, and overboard Sidious goes. Thus, we see clear blue eyes on Anakin's face when the mask is removed.

The man who lived in darkness saw a great light that was his son...and of a father's love was begotten salvation.

...yes, I phrased it like that because it's Christmas :P

Is it just me or did Anakin look really chubby after Luke took the mask off?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
When is it shown that Vader held back even slightly?

It's not that he was holding back, but rather that he didn't really desire to kill Luke. He was trying to defeat him, though, and the RotJ novel depicts him as embarrassed and pissed that the boy was pushing him back in front of the Emperor.

It should be noted though, that while he didn't want to kill Luke, it was clearly noted that he was willing* to kill him.

Not wanting to kill =/=holding back.

Precisely.

For as many jedi as Vader's killed...sure, most of those jedi were pikers, and not real threats, but he's fought a LOT of jedi. His best real fights were Galen Marek/Starkiller...and Count Dooku, way back in the day.

It just doesn't seem like the same Sith Lord that sent dozens of jedi to become One with the Force personally is giving the same effort against his son.

It has been stated though, that Vader could have bested Luke had he used the force offensively. Forgot the source however...

Edit: anyway, while Vader may have thought he was willing to kill his son, as we see in the end, he truly wasn't.

Yes. It's somewhat similar to Mara on Mykr. It's one thing to have 'You Will Kill Luke Skywalker' dancing around in your head. It's another to actually go through with killing him.

Most parents certainly tell their children they're going to kill them. Doesn't mean they'll go through with it. His belief that he can kill his son is comprable to the dad who shouts 'I brought you into this world, boy, and I can take you right back out of it!'

You particularly don't kill your son that you're secretly PROUD of!

The point is that regardless of whether or not he was committed to actually killing Luke, he wasn't holding back either.

Originally posted by ares834
It has been stated though, that Vader could have bested Luke had he used the force offensively. Forgot the source however...

Edit: anyway, while Vader may have thought he was willing to kill his son, as we see in the end, he truly wasn't.

It was Luke's thoughts when he was getting Tk'd against a less Powerful foe than Vader.

Might have been a Nightsister and might have been in The Courtship of Princess Leia. Can't remember now.

Anyway I honestly don't think the ROTJ novel holds up as evidence anymore. Uncle Ben is apparently Obi-Wan's brother in that novel. And Lucas has said in the ROTJ Audio commentary that Luke wasn't yet trained well enough to be a match for Vader.

I suppose that doesn't negate the possibility that Luke was Vader's equal in Sabers (since Vader held back on his TK at least) but I personally don't even buy into that.

Vader wasn't fighting Luke to defeat him. He was fighting Luke to convert him.

Indeed. He was using considerably more TK in ESB then he was using in ROTJ. He certainly wasn't throwing everything not nailed down (and a few things that were) at his son.

Gethzerion is more powerful than Vader, power. Also, Vader isnt actually mentioned in the passage.

Must be a different book then. Because there's definitely a passage somewhere of Luke thinking something like "So this is what it would be like if Vader really tried to kill me".. And he was pinned against the wall Iirc.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was Luke's thoughts when he was getting Tk'd against a less Powerful foe than Vader.

Might have been a Nightsister and might have been in The Courtship of Princess Leia. Can't remember now.

Ah yes. That's correct.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Gethzerion is more powerful than Vader, power.

Nah. I'm incredibly doubtful.

Anyways...the amount Vader was holding back is the most relevant part of this.

Because Luke's feats aren't as mighty if Vader wasn't giving it his all.

@Power: IIRC she was bursting the blood vessels in his head, not outright ragdolling him. I remember someone had brought it up a few months ago, trying to stretch Luke thinking "who am I kidding?" or something of that sort to imply that he was referring to his ability to stand up to Vader.

Here we go. Not sure where they are in the book but I've seen these both before (and used them myself).

"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient."

"Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me."

...That's the same passage I'm thinking of, but the last sentence is different.

Well, in any case, my point wasn't that Vader was trying to kill Luke, it's that he--without question--trying to defeat him. And he couldn't.

Well that's strange. Just googled an online version and it says the exact same thing I posted.

Fair enough, I don't care enough to dwell on it. I'll check my copy later.

Regardless, contending with and pushing back even a conflicted Vader is far better than any of Ben's feats, really.

What do we consider Ben's best feats, anyway?

Pretty sure the best he's done is stalemate Vestera, and be blatantly inferior to Jaina and the like. Caedus notes he could dispatch him without any sort of challenge, unlike someone like Saba Sebatyne or Kyle Katarn.

Wookiepedia says what really hindered Ben's growth is that he withdrew from the Force during the Vong crisis. The potential, however, remains within him. He's still Luke and Mara's son.

FOTJ does have him decapitating one of the Sith Sabers on his own. So that's something. Ben also defeated 3 Sith on Dromund Kaas. (His father and Jaina were busy killing 6 others)

...Maybe Ben Skywalker needs a respect thread.

For Force Powers, Ben has...

Skywalker was able to disappear in the Force, a rare power that was taught to him by Jacen Solo, a power which he later taught to his mother. He also learned how to flow-walk, but after an unpleasant experience using the power, he vowed never to flow-walk again. Along with being very strong with the Force, Skywalker was a quick study; he learned to flow-walk in a short time and was able to master sniping within hours. Skywalker was also skilled in telepathy and was talented in reading a person's intentions through the Force. Skywalker, much like his grandfather, was very skilled with machines from a young age and was also a skilled pilot. Skywalker was skilled with stealth and infiltration, being able to evade detection on Centerpoint Station and inconspicuously reaching the Amulet of Kalara's case. Skywalker was also good with reasoning and logic, something that impressed his father during some of their dialogues, and was able to convince Anakin Sal-Solo that he was actually a droid. Skywalker was gifted with an uncanny ability to remember things he had seen or heard in near perfect detail.

...No mention AT ALL of his telekinetics. Instead, they talk about the stealth powers he apparently inherited from Mara. All I can find is a reference of telekinetically throwing Vestara's Shikkar at Aboleth

Luke crushes him. Ben was mediocre even as of FOTJ.