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Battle takes place on neutral ground

Kenobi. Luke isn't strong enough yet.

Kenobi trashes him

Obi-Wan can go against Vader trying to kill him. Luke cannot fight a Vader holding back. Kenobi has the better showings.

This isn't even a fight.

kenobi slices off at least one of luke's limbs and leaves him for dead.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This isn't even a fight.

Sure it is. Just one that Kenobi will win.

Kenobi is THE master at cutting off limbs

ROTJ Luke might win. But not ESB.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure it is. Just one that Kenobi will win.

If by that you mean an even fight that Kenobi will in 3 seconds, then sure.

Nah, your underestimation of Luke is pretty funny bro. For the record, Obi-Wan being who he is, I don't think he'd finish anyone in three seconds.

Furthermore Vader muses in Shadows of the Empire that while it had been a test, he had actively tried to defeat Luke on Bespin, but he was unexpectedly able to hold his ground. He also notes the battle was the greatest challenge he'd had since he fought Kenobi, for what it's worth.

ESB Luke's training is incomplete, but he's a fairly competent warrior. He's somewhat outclassed here, but he'll do no worse than he did against Vader.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Nah, your underestimation of Luke is pretty funny bro. For the record, Obi-Wan being who he is, I don't think he'd finish anyone in three seconds.





You mean my "supposed" underestimation of OT Luke?

Well I guess you can laugh at me and Lucas together then. Seen as he's called even ROTJ Luke as only half trained, let alone ESB Luke. I'm curious where people seem to think Luke got all this amazing Jedi Combat skills from in 3-4 years with only a few weeks of formal training.

ANH Kenobi was stalemating Vader. Vader casually put Luke on his ass after their first blade lock (first lock after a couple of strikes).

A couple of years ago the idea of ESB Luke being any kind of challenge to any formidable Jedi would have been outright laughable on these boards. Not sure what's changed (apart from the people here).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I guess you can laugh at me and Lucas together then. Seen as he's called even ROTJ Luke as only half trained, let alone ESB Luke.

You still after over a year have yet to provide a quote. The only similar one I can think of is, iirc, contextually referring to ESB, not ROTJ.



Dunno. Darth Bane had something like a year of formal training and he turned out alright.

Perhaps Kenobi and Yoda are just that good as teachers, and Luke is just that much of a natural. Either way, he has feats to back him up.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You still after over a year have yet to provide a quote. The only similar one I can think of is, iirc, contextually referring to ESB, not ROTJ.



Dunno. Darth Bane had something like a year of formal training and he turned out alright.

Perhaps Kenobi and Yoda are just that good as teachers, and Luke is just that much of a natural. Either way, he has feats to back him up.

He also self trained and yeah, Luke has a ridiculous learning curve, hence why he was able to advanced so quickly and by ROTJ he was a fully trained Jedi Knight, only thing left for him to do was go and confront Vader.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You still after over a year have yet to provide a quote. The only similar one I can think of is, iirc, contextually referring to ESB, not ROTJ.



I've provided it numerous times actually. And I provide the source pretty much every time: ROTJ AUDIO COMMENTARY- SCENE WHERE LUKE VISITS YODA.

My computer's f***ed right now and I'm typing from my phone so will provide it AGAIN when I have access to a working computer.

And yes ILS also tried to pull that crap saying "it sounds like he's talking about ESB Luke". But that's just seriously reaching and frankly in denial, seen as it's the ROTJ Audio commentary and Lucas is clearly referring to Luke at the current point in time.

I've also pointed out Dave Filoni's views on OT Luke where he thinks any PT era Council Member would kick even ROTJ Luke's butt.

So Honestly it's perfectly fine if you want to LOL at my "Lowballing" of OT Luke. Because they're not even my views. I'm just saying it how it is within the highest ranks of official canon (old and new, Legends and Disney).

So by all means I'll stand next to Lucas and Filoni and you can LOL at the 3 of us lowballing OT Luke.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yes ILS also tried to pull that crap saying "it sounds like he's talking about ESB Luke". But that's just seriously reaching and frankly in denial, seen as it's the ROTJ Audio commentary and Lucas is clearly referring to Luke at the current point in time. Kind of creepy that you're referencing me like this tbh. Plus there's nothing wrong with being skeptical about such a quote when you haven't seen the material yourself and, at face value, it does sound like it's referencing ESB Luke, because he did cut his training from Yoda short and then go and face Vader.

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary. Scene where Luke visits Yoda.

This is the quote that DP is talking about.

I'll promptly refute his argument like I did the last time I saw it:

Originally posted by NemeBro
That quote establishes that the challenge isn't just physical, but emotional. Furthermore, at no point does Lucas say "Luke sucks more than Vader", he just says that facing him will be a difficult challenge in more than one way. It was. He still won.

I'm not saying DP is necessarily wrong in where he has ROTJ Luke ranked, only that his interpretation of this quote is inaccurate.

That Luke didn't finish his training means nothing toward how formidable he is.

No, you have never, ever provided the quote to my knowledge during my stay here.

And obviously skepticism is understandable when the quote your talking about happens to be during the scene where Yoda scolds Luke for cutting his training short in ESB. Especially when there have been occassions where Lucas has implied the direct opposite, to boot.

Hell, he had a hand in the writing of the movie novelizatons that directly refute this idea, which by the way have been recently revealed to still be canon, along with the TCW novelization.

And yeah, I am laughing at Filoni. All the time, really.

Well I mean, he has, and I just posted it for you. If you click the "post" part of the quote in my post you will even find where he posted it.

I didn't see your post, I'll check it out.

EDIT: All right, conceded. I must have missed all of these countless times he's posted it. :P

Huh...never saw that commentary, although that kinda goes against what Yoda said. But then he probably meant it, by him being good enough....but nice anyway.

So there's that quote of Lucas's which Nemobro was kind enough to repost for me, plus Lucas's protege Dave Filoni also reckons ROTJ Luke would not be the equal of any PT Council Member:

"And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt. He had a lot of heart though, right? He had a lot going for him. And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father -- but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure. "

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/...ack-at-season-4


As for Yoda's dialogue, Filoni seems to suggest Luke's real mission all along, was to redeem Vader. ^ Above he says "And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father --" and says it again here while also pointing out Luke's lack of formal training again:

"I mean, on a basic level at this point he's so much better trained than Luke could ever be. It's just an interesting take on what are all these other people that have the Force doing? And how do we not have that interfere with the blinding light, the New Hope that Luke Skywalker becomes? Luke's mission in the Force is very specific. Learn to be selfless. Selfless enough to save your Father. To realize that you can forgive and redeem. And that's a bit different than where we're going with Ezra and Kanan for sure."

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-...ew-dave-filoni/

^ Now I perfectly understand that if people want to strictly follow Legends here, then yes Luke was legitimately Vader's equal. In fact I think that was Lucas's original intention, which is why the ROTJ Novel says as much.

But he's revamped a lot of stuff since the Prequels (I mean Owen isn't Ben's brother now), and basically we have to take all the dialogue in that movie with a grain of salt. Whatever Yoda, Kenobi and Vader are telling him, Lucas and Filoni now want us to believe that they were all basically telling Luke what he needed to hear, or just outright manipulating him.

So Official Canon (Lucas's official canon that is) is now very different to Legends on the matter. And I know in the past Legends would bow down in rank to what Lucas says, but I'm not sure if that's the case anymore.

I will be interested to see Disney's take on the matter. But considering Filoni's position under Disney, and him commenting on it again during a "Rebels" interview, my guess is Disney will be following the Post PT Lucas and Filoni's take on it.

If however Disney change that and say ROTJ Luke was Vader's equal, then I would just ignore what Lucas says in the ROTJ Commentary. And take Filoni's lines as his own personal extreme opinion.

"I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt."

This, like his insane opinion that Grievous' main skill as a combatant is waving scary glow sticks around really fast, is just an opinion. It's not canon.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

Edit

"His" specific notion was that ROTJ Luke can't match even Coleman Trebor.

However this "but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure" relating to ROTJ Luke vs Vader and/or Palpatine, seems to be presented as fact.

Bear in mind Even Filoni's opinions should be seriously considered as, if not perfect truth, then somewhere close to the truth at least. Given his position as one of the biggest creators of Official SW Canon, and as Lucas' s protege.

So I'd personally take his opinions over Legend sourcebooks and largely Revamped 25 year old novels anyday.

I mean... the only thing that really contradicts the notion that Luke was Vader's near-equal is Filoni's commentary... and he wasn't one of the people involved in the original trilogy or Luke's progression as a character. But if you want to put all of your stock into his opinion that Luke is so useless he couldn't even beat Coleman Trebor then by all means, do so.

And also, Filoni typically ignores important aspects of characters for whatever reason. He thinks Luke having little training is a massive issue, but then Luke has always been exceptional because of his Force potential, allowing him to learn at an accelerated pace. This is even evident from the films given what he is able to accomplish in such a short space of time.

It's Filoni's comments and Lucas' s in the ROTJ commentary. Lucas already said Luke wasn't trained well enough to be a match for Vader. Filoni takes it further saying he wasn't yet equal to Council level members.

Filoni was Lucas's protege. They've had extensive conversations for years about the OT and PT and how all those pieces fit together. And Filoni is a creator of official canon in a really big way in the PT and now OT time period as well.

Taking all that I'd put ROTJ Luke approx on par with TPM Kenobi. Or perhaps AOTC Anakin.

Like them, Luke was capable of kicking some butt and going toe to toe with a Sith Lord(especially when Enraged), but still not close to fulfilling his potential or being on par with top tiers. That's my opinion on the matter.

That's kinda why I put ROTJ Luke up against his son in a different thread. I thought Ben Skywalker had sufficient training to beat his father at the same age. It's years vs. what, a month?

Originally posted by ILS
But if you want to put all of your stock into his opinion that Luke is so useless he couldn't even beat Coleman Trebor then by all means, do so.

Hey hey, come on now.

Originally posted by Trocity
Hey hey, come on now. No offence to Trebor, of course.

If we stick to purely Legends sources and the ROTJ Novelization, then yes ROTJ Luke and Vader were equals.

But if we take the canon hierarchy and put Lucas's most recent comments on top, then ROTJ Luke was only Half Trained and not equipped to deal with the likes of Vader.

I'd personally say putting ROTJ Luke on par with AOTC Anakin is pretty fair to Luke. Given Luke's small amount of formal training and Anakin's higher potential, Luke would have to be amazing to have reached even that level by ROTJ.

...This is the EU thread, to be fair, so the EU/Legends rules apply.

If this same thread were on the original trilogy board, it would be different.

But as nobody wants a canon debate let's not have one.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
...This is the EU thread, to be fair, so the EU/Legends rules apply.

If this same thread were on the original trilogy board, it would be different.

But as nobody wants a canon debate let's not have one.


Well no one said this is a pure Legends board. It's an EU board. I don't see the word Legends in the board names of the rules anywhere.

In fact the rules actually give priority to the movies and Lucas's statements.

But I admit rules surrounding "Legends" are a bit of a grey area right now considering the canon changes Disney has made.

Of course the OP didn't say "Legends Only" so I don't see why the statements of the higher canon authorities including Lucas himself wouldn't apply.