Who can stalmate Cosmic Armor Superman?

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CatL18
DC,Marvel,Image,etc.

Who can stalmate Cosmic Armor Suuperman, and How powerful is Cosmic Armor?
Some say universal, other say omniversal.

CatL18
I think without plot-power, He is megaversal because Spheres above orrery of the world which contain multiverse is some sort of megaverse.
So I think Cosmic Armor Superman which is biger than Limbo is at least multiversal plus to megaversal.
What do you think?

operator616
I think your theory is a completely unsubstantiated one.

RealityWarper
Totally overrated

Golgo13
Very few.

Time Immemorial
No one

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
I think your theory is a completely unsubstantiated one.
Why? Limbo is above orrery of the world which contain Breed and Multiverse itself. And Cosmic Armor is far bigger than Limbo. Isn't it written and established in Superman Beyond 3D and Map of the Multiverse?
BTW, What tier Do you put Cosmic Armor Superman?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Totally overrated
I saw your posts. You seem to hate Superman very much. Why Do you hate Superman?
BTW, I think it is nope that Nova Prime can stomp Blue Superman.

operator616
Originally posted by CatL18
Why? Limbo is above orrery of the world which contain Breed and Multiverse itself. And Cosmic Armor is far bigger than Limbo. Isn't it written and established in Superman Beyond 3D and Map of the Multiverse?
BTW, What tier Do you put Cosmic Armor Superman?


Just because Limbo is dissociated from the multiverse doesn't mean it's bigger.

You seem to have this misconception that any realm/dimension which exists outside the multiverse neccesarily means it's bigger. Well, im sorry to tell you that it's most definitely not

Going by your logic, shouldn't every single new god be bigger than the multiverse since they're, y'know, "above it"?

Doesn't every single angel in the silver city dwarf the multiverse because they're outside of it.

Hell, let's go even further, even pre-FP, Phantom Girl's dimension was outside the multiverse, does that mean that even freakin' Phantom Girl dwarfs the multiverse and is megaversal?

And every being in Gemworld since it is too outside the multiverse?

etc...

So i hope you see why your stance isn't supported by any evidence whatsoever. In fact, it's completely contradictory.

heisetx
Sentry can

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
Just because Limbo is dissociated from the multiverse doesn't mean it's bigger.

You seem to have this misconception that any realm/dimension which exists outside the multiverse neccesarily means it's bigger. Well, im sorry to tell you that it's most definitely not

Going by your logic, shouldn't every single new god be bigger than the multiverse since they're, y'know, "above it"?

Doesn't every single angel in the silver city dwarf the multiverse because they're outside of it.

Hell, let's go even further, even pre-FP, Phantom Girl's dimension was outside the multiverse, does that mean that even freakin' Phantom Girl dwarfs the multiverse and is megaversal?

And every being in Gemworld since it is too outside the multiverse?

etc...

So i hope you see why your stance isn't supported by any evidence whatsoever. In fact, it's completely contradictory.

I see. But Haven't Orion said that Mortal universes exists inside mere bubble in the one reality of New Genesis?

http://i.imgur.com/s9SAVgh.jpg?1

And,Doesn't Map of Multiverse say that Monitors use Nano probe to investigate Breed, But It's size is immense in 3D world?
Probe is super-small for Monitors like Monitors is Super-small probe for Primal Monitor.And Didn't Monitors watched Multiverse in jar?
So I think that at least Monitors Sphere is far bigger than Multiverse.
And, Do you have feat to prove that Spheres outside Orrery of worlds is smaller than mltiverse?

Originally posted by heisetx
Sentry can
Nope

Silent Master
Deadpool or She-Hulk.

operator616
Originally posted by CatL18
I see. But Haven't Orion said that Mortal universes exists inside mere bubble in the one reality of New Genesis?

http://i.imgur.com/s9SAVgh.jpg?1

And,Doesn't Map of Multiverse say that Monitors use Nano probe to investigate Breed, But It's size is immense in 3D world?
Probe is super-small for Monitors like Monitors is Super-small probe for Primal Monitor.And Didn't Monitors watched Multiverse in jar?
So I think that at least Monitors Sphere is far bigger than Multiverse.
And, Do you have feat to prove that Spheres outside Orrery of worlds is smaller than mltiverse?


Nope

Im familiar with that scan, and we outright see Superman/Orion dwarfing planets and not universes. the fourth world as a whole may dwarf the multiverse, but the beings inside of it don't except for Darkseid maybe given what we've seen of FC. There was actually another instance in Supergirl (4th series) where we see new gods as giants, not planet level giants but still bigger than usual.

Either way, i don't see its relevance, given that dimensions such as gemworld and Phantom Girl's exist outside the multiverse yet don't dwarf it. It has to be specifically stated for you to actually attribute that characteristic, that's what you seem to be missing. You're just assuming that Limbo dwarfs the multiverse when there was no indication of it.

Yes, Monitor-world is much bigger than the 3D multiverse, im not arguing that, and Thought Robot is bigger than a universe (Limbo). Im just saying that your statement of Thought Robot being megaversal is unsubstantiated. And that's a fact.

Also, regarding CA Superman's ranking. I would put him above universal abstracts but below full multiversal ones. That is, if we put aside the metafictional tone of the story. Which i personally prefer to. Otherwise we can have the 3 dimwits (y'know, the 3 humans who literally have no brain cells and appeared frequently in the Golden Age Flash comics) be TOAA-level. Im not even kidding here.

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
Im familiar with that scan, and we outright see Superman/Orion dwarfing planets and not universes. the fourth world as a whole may dwarf the multiverse, but the beings inside of it don't except for Darkseid maybe given what we've seen of FC. There was actually another instance in Supergirl (4th series) where we see new gods as giants, not planet level giants but still bigger than usual.

Either way, i don't see its relevance, given that dimensions such as gemworld and Phantom Girl's exist outside the multiverse yet don't dwarf it. It has to be specifically stated for you to actually attribute that characteristic, that's what you seem to be missing. You're just assuming that Limbo dwarfs the multiverse when there was no indication of it.

Yes, Monitor-world is much bigger than the 3D multiverse, im not arguing that, and Thought Robot is bigger than a universe (Limbo). Im just saying that your statement of Thought Robot being megaversal is unsubstantiated. And that's a fact.

Also, regarding CA Superman's ranking. I would put him above universal abstracts but below full multiversal ones. That is, if we put aside the metafictional tone of the story. Which i personally prefer to. Otherwise we can have the 3 dimwits (y'know, the 3 humans who literally have no brain cells and appeared frequently in the Golden Age Flash comics) be TOAA-level. Im not even kidding here.

Nice stuff. Would it be that if the New Gods (Say Orion) were to be in their true forms, could they be even more powerful?

I remember reading on the Alvaro (SP?) boards that when Walt Simonson was going to continue his Orion run, he was going to delve into that.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by heisetx
Sentry can

Nope

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
Im familiar with that scan, and we outright see Superman/Orion dwarfing planets and not universes. the fourth world as a whole may dwarf the multiverse, but the beings inside of it don't except for Darkseid maybe given what we've seen of FC. There was actually another instance in Supergirl (4th series) where we see new gods as giants, not planet level giants but still bigger than usual.

Either way, i don't see its relevance, given that dimensions such as gemworld and Phantom Girl's exist outside the multiverse yet don't dwarf it. It has to be specifically stated for you to actually attribute that characteristic, that's what you seem to be missing. You're just assuming that Limbo dwarfs the multiverse when there was no indication of it.

Yes, Monitor-world is much bigger than the 3D multiverse, im not arguing that, and Thought Robot is bigger than a universe (Limbo). Im just saying that your statement of Thought Robot being megaversal is unsubstantiated. And that's a fact.

Also, regarding CA Superman's ranking. I would put him above universal abstracts but below full multiversal ones. That is, if we put aside the metafictional tone of the story. Which i personally prefer to. Otherwise we can have the 3 dimwits (y'know, the 3 humans who literally have no brain cells and appeared frequently in the Golden Age Flash comics) be TOAA-level. Im not even kidding here.
I put aside the CAS's metafictional power too because what I want to know is how powerful is CAS without metafictional plot power. But If Size of Multiverse is within jar in Monitor Space,Isn't CAS bigger than it?
CAS and Mandrakk become bigger/stronger throught fight and reached Primal Monitor itself. Doesn' t it mean that They were in the outermost shell of DC multiverse/omniverse?(What do you think about how large is all DC creation? multiverse? megaverse?)
BTW, Please teach me about the 3 dimwits. I don't know about them. Why Do they become TOAA level ? if CAS's metafictional interpretation is considered

Originally posted by Silent Master
Deadpool or She-Hulk.
Maybe. But, wait. Do they have PIS to compete with Superman? lol

operator616
Originally posted by Golgo13
Nice stuff. Would it be that if the New Gods (Say Orion) were to be in their true forms, could they be even more powerful?

I remember reading on the Alvaro (SP?) boards that when Walt Simonson was going to continue his Orion run, he was going to delve into that.

Yes, based on that New Gods v3 arc, they should be if they manifest fully in the 3D multiverse. But boomtubes decrease their size proportionally.

No.

Originally posted by CatL18
I put aside the CAS's metafictional power too . But If Size of Multiverse is within jar in Monitor Space,Isn't CAS bigger than it?
CAS and Mandrakk become bigger/stronger throught fight and reached Primal Monitor itself. Doesn' t it mean that They were in the outermost shell of DC multiverse/omniverse?(What do you think about how large is all DC creation? multiverse? megaverse?)

Perhaps he's bigger than the 52-universes wide multiverse. But not an infinite multiverse. post-infinite Crisis had infinite multiverse, but it wasn't mainstream DC's. It was Wildstorm's.
What does reaching the Primal Monitor have to do with anything? In fact, Thought Robot beat Mandrakk by blasting him into Primal's Monitor being which left nothing of Mandrakk - he was literally erased.

DC as a whole is more than a multiverse. The omniverse has been referenced, pre-Crisis, post-Crisis and post-FP.

Originally posted by CatL18

BTW, Please teach me about the 3 dimwits. I don't know about them. Why Do they become TOAA level ? if CAS's metafictional interpretation is considered


laughing out loud believe me you're gonna be disappointed when you learn about them. They are basically 3 normal humans who give stupidity a whole new meaning. They literally are the most stupid characters seen in the entirety of comics. Yet, Noddy (one of the dimwits) managed to actually write the story for All-Flash #14 (it was a golden age story):

http://i.imgur.com/PoT7jng.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zm9ds7E.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lsiL7hb.jpg

Noddy literally made the comic and was aware of everything within it and manipulated panels, despite not having any superpowers.

Which is basically why i ignore 4th wall breaking or any metafictional shit. It's been happening since the 1940s and it can't be actually used in a vs battle.

Also, people tend to forget that Superman's metafictional imprtance isn't the only one present in DC. Batman (a street level human) has literally cosmic-level importance in DC as well. in Trinity it was outright stated that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are keystones to the entire multiverse. In Superman/Batman it was mentioned that Superman and Batman are the linchpin to everything which directly led to Infinite Crisis which actually was a Superman/Batman event.

That's why we don't use any sort of metafiction to hype up any character.

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
Perhaps he's bigger than the 52-universes wide multiverse. But not an infinite multiverse. post-infinite Crisis had infinite multiverse, but it wasn't mainstream DC's. It was Wildstorm's.
What does reaching the Primal Monitor have to do with anything? In fact, Thought Robot beat Mandrakk by blasting him into Primal's Monitor being which left nothing of Mandrakk - he was literally erased.

DC as a whole is more than a multiverse. The omniverse has been referenced, pre-Crisis, post-Crisis and post-FP.
Doesn't Map of Multiverse imply that Breed Space as higher dimensional Bulk can contain infinite universe because multiverse is mere membrane restricted to Breed? According to Brane cosmology, 3D universes is only membrane restricted to higher Dimensional Bulk Space. And There is official statement in Map of Multiverse that Breed is all-enclosing BULK. So I think that Breed is too vast to contain even infinite universes. and Breed may contain New52 multiverse,pre-flasshpoint multiverse,pre-crisis multiverse. and Isn't there statement that each earth have countless(possibly infinite?) pararell Dimensions,divergent timeline,microverse, etc?
As for reaching Primal Monitor, What I want to say is that They become bigger/stronger to reach Primal Monitor, so They can be above almost all of DC creation.

Originally posted by operator616
laughing out loud believe me you're gonna be disappointed when you learn about them. They are basically 3 normal humans who give stupidity a whole new meaning. They literally are the most stupid characters seen in the entirety of comics. Yet, Noddy (one of the dimwits) managed to actually write the story for All-Flash #14 (it was a golden age story):

http://i.imgur.com/PoT7jng.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zm9ds7E.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lsiL7hb.jpg

Noddy literally made the comic and was aware of everything within it and manipulated panels, despite not having any superpowers.

Which is basically why i ignore 4th wall breaking or any metafictional shit. It's been happening since the 1940s and it can't be actually used in a vs battle.

Also, people tend to forget that Superman's metafictional imprtance isn't the only one present in DC. Batman (a street level human) has literally cosmic-level importance in DC as well. in Trinity it was outright stated that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are keystones to the entire multiverse. In Superman/Batman it was mentioned that Superman and Batman are the linchpin to everything which directly led to Infinite Crisis which actually was a Superman/Batman event.

That's why we don't use any sort of metafiction to hype up any character.
Thank you. I understand your point. I think It is reasonable.
But I have senn All Star Superman,Final Crisis,Action Comics,Schuster's sword of Superman Story,etc which show that Superman is in a sense metafictionaly and fictionally source of everything in DC creation and THE ONE of DC creation. So If Every story of Superman is embodied as CAS, I think that it is fictionally and metafictionally invincible at least in DC creation. It is personal opinion though.
Off course, I can understand why You don't want to use any sort of metafiction.

Silent Master
Originally posted by CatL18


They have the ability to break the 4th wall, means they could have the story re-written. smile

CatL18
Originally posted by Silent Master
They have the ability to break the 4th wall, means they could have the story re-written. smile
I know. What I wan to say is that They can't rival Superman in plot-power aka 4th wall breaking plot power, So It is difficult for them to beat CAS from the 4th wall.

quanchi112
Ca superman is vastly overrated.

CatL18
BTW, Isn't CAS and Final Crisis hated by many? In Amazon rating, The rate of Final Crisis is law. Final Crisis is one of my favorite. But I seldom see person who like Final Crisis. Why are they so hated?
Is it because of metafiction filled story? or Is it too complicated?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ca superman is vastly overrated.
Based on What?

naurtoisbeast
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ca superman is vastly overrated. Originally posted by quanchi112
Ca superman is vastly overrated. i think superman will win here

Astner
Originally posted by CatL18
BTW, Isn't CAS and Final Crisis hated by many? In Amazon rating, The rate of Final Crisis is law. Final Crisis is one of my favorite. But I seldom see person who like Final Crisis. Why are they so hated?
Is it because of metafiction filled story? or Is it too complicated?
Just read the reviews. Besides an average of 3/5 isn't bad, it's average.

Not everything Grant Morrison writes is worth its weight in gold.

Originally posted by CatL18
Based on What?
Based on that people will pull out the meta-fictional > fictional card in every debate to excuse the shortage of actual feats.

CatL18
Originally posted by Astner
Just read the reviews. Besides an average of 3/5 isn't bad, it's average.

Not everything Grant Morrison writes is worth its weight in gold.
I thought most numerous star is 1/5. So I thought Final Crisis is hated.


BOriginally posted by Astner
ased on that people will pull out the meta-fictional > fictional card in every debate to excuse the shortage of actual feats.
I don't insist that here. and Isn't Morrison's intention clear in Superman Beyond 3D? I understand that Morrison's battle is more conceptual, metafictional and doesn't have actual feat which is reliable in VS forum.

Astner
Originally posted by CatL18
I thought most numerous star is 1/5. So I thought Final Crisis is hated.
It's about quality of the reviews, not the quantity. A good review would elaborate on the strengths and weaknesses of the story whereas a bad review wouldn't.

Originally posted by CatL18
I don't insist that here. and Isn't Morrison's intention clear in Superman Beyond 3D? I understand that Morrison's battle is more conceptual, metafictional and doesn't have actual feat which is reliable in VS forum.
The problem is that it's subjective. Both in how it was written and its interpretations. But in order to make actual comparisons to characters that aren't meta-fictional you need to establish further rules before you can address this topic objectively.

krisblaze
The people who hate it claims that it was difficult to understand and whatnot.

It's a terrible buy if you're just looking for a random tradeback or just happen to read the big events and nothing else.

Anyways, seems stupid to judge a piece because it's not accessible enough.

Insane Titan
Beyonder/HOTU

CatL18
Originally posted by Astner
The problem is that it's subjective. Both in how it was written and its interpretations. But in order to make actual comparisons to characters that aren't meta-fictional you need to establish further rules before you can address this topic objectively.
I think that It is obvious about how CAS is written, but I understand your statement. So,When I started thread,I said that without metafictional-plot power.

SquallX
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Beyonder/HOTU

No.

NemeBro
True, PR Beyonder (I'm assuming that is who he means) wouldn't stalemate CA Supeerman.

He'd curbstomp him and take him from behind, forcing Superman to eat his own feces while his ass was violated.

Insane Titan
Originally posted by SquallX
No. yes

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by NemeBro
True, PR Beyonder (I'm assuming that is who he means) wouldn't stalemate CA Supeerman.

He'd curbstomp him and take him from behind, forcing Superman to eat his own feces while his ass was violated.

laughing laughing

Astner
Originally posted by CatL18
I think that It is obvious about how CAS is written, but I understand your statement. So,When I started thread,I said that without metafictional-plot power.
Thought Robot ≈ Mandrakk > Spectre ≈ Anti-Monitor

So he'd be multiversal.

operator616
^ Based on what is Anti-Monitor = Spectre? And Corrigan-Spectre is > Crispus Spectre. Not even taking into account that Corrigan Spectre was amped, or that Crispus Spectre was weakened after the events of FC: Revelations.

Originally posted by CatL18
Doesn't Map of Multiverse imply that Breed Space as higher dimensional Bulk can contain infinite universe because multiverse is mere membrane restricted to Breed? According to Brane cosmology, 3D universes is only membrane restricted to higher Dimensional Bulk Space. And There is official statement in Map of Multiverse that Breed is all-enclosing BULK. So I think that Breed is too vast to contain even infinite universes. and Breed may contain New52 multiverse,pre-flasshpoint multiverse,pre-crisis multiverse. and Isn't there statement that each earth have countless(possibly infinite?) pararell Dimensions,divergent timeline,microverse, etc?
As for reaching Primal Monitor, What I want to say is that They become bigger/stronger to reach Primal Monitor, so They can be above almost all of DC creation..

You don't seem to get what im saying.

What you're saying is true regarding the bleed being able to contain infinite universes. Like i told you in my prior post: the WS multiverse already had infinite ones, post-IC. And in an issue of the Authority v4 we are outright shown that there are more than 52 universes inside the bleed:

http://i.imgur.com/Tl0XVQD.jpg?1

If you count the ones who are merely shown on panel (and there are more who aren't shown) you'll get at least 60 alternate Earths/universes which is already more than the 52 of the mainstream DC universe. And that scan is from The Authority v4 #15, 2009.

However, Bleed's capacity to contain universes is irrelevant regarding gauging Thought Robot's and Mandrakk's power levels. Because it was outright shown that Mandrakk was threatening the 52 universes of the mainstream multiverse and nothing more. Even if you count WS as being one of those 52 because there are instances of such, that's fine by me, but you can't just assume he was threatening the entire WS multiverse along with the mainstream one.

Each one of the 52 don't have their own divergent realities and whatnot. There are however countless other realms apart from the mainstream multiverse (and others like WS), for example Spectre v2 #7 establishes that, apart from the New Earth universe, there are infinite realms and infinite limbos within each one of those realms. There are plenty of comics who just randomly establish unknown realms/dimensions/universes in DC. A random comic might establish that easily.

Regarding the last part; you sure that's accurate? Because from what i see, Thought Robot/Mandrakk reach the end/boundaries of Nil which have the Primal Monitor surrounding it. And i certainly don't see them being above all DC when we literally see other monitors beside them observing their battle, and they're not that much smaller.

abhilegend
Mandrakk was definitely above original anti monitor. There is no denying that.

Prof. T.C McAbe
No one sans the writers themselves and even so, Superman's story is bigger than writers and artists.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by CatL18
DC,Marvel,Image,etc.

Who can stalmate Cosmic Armor Suuperman, and How powerful is Cosmic Armor?
Some say universal, other say omniversal.

Abhilegend's Superman.

the Darkone
PR Beyonder
PR MM
THanos w/HOTU

would a$$ rape him

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
http://i.imgur.com/Tl0XVQD.jpg?1

If you count the ones who are merely shown on panel (and there are more who aren't shown) you'll get at least 60 alternate Earths/universes which is already more than the 52 of the mainstream DC universe. And that scan is from The Authority v4 #15, 2009.

However, Bleed's capacity to contain universes is irrelevant regarding gauging Thought Robot's and Mandrakk's power levels. Because it was outright shown that Mandrakk was threatening the 52 universes of the mainstream multiverse and nothing more. Even if you count WS as being one of those 52 because there are instances of such, that's fine by me, but you can't just assume he was threatening the entire WS multiverse along with the mainstream one.
Orrery of Worlds is said to be All-Enclosing Higher Dimensional Bulk in MAP of Multiverse.

"ORRERY OF WORLDS: 52 'brane universes vibrating in the same space, all at different frequencies, within the all-enclosing Bulk, otherwise known as Bleed-space. Four Bleed Siphons have been drilled in from Monitor Sphere to the Orrery, to permit the harvest of the miracle Ultramenstruum fluid."

If Other pararell earth is vibrating in same quantum space, It mean that All infinite universe is inside orrery of worlds. So, I think that orrery of world hold not only 52 but infinite universe.

Originally posted by operator616 Each one of the 52 don't have their own divergent realities and whatnot. There are however countless other realms apart from the mainstream multiverse (and others like WS), for example Spectre v2 #7 establishes that, apart from the New Earth universe, there are infinite realms and infinite limbos within each one of those realms. There are plenty of comics who just randomly establish unknown realms/dimensions/universes in DC. A random comic might establish that easily.
It was shown in DC continuity that there is countless another dimension or divergent time line in prenew52 multiverse. For example, In camellot fall, There was possible time line that Superman is defeated by Khyber and Earth is doomed. I think that it is divergent future time line and it is within 52 multiverse.
And, Didn't official like Didio say that 52 multiverse has Pararell Dimensions, Divergent Time line, Microverse, etc?


Originally posted by operator616 Regarding the last part; you sure that's accurate? Because from what i see, Thought Robot/Mandrakk reach the end/boundaries of Nil which have the Primal Monitor surrounding it. And i certainly don't see them being above all DC when we literally see other monitors beside them observing their battle, and they're not that much smaller.
I think that Other monitor saw the begining of battle, but after that, CAS and Mandrakk keep fighting and Superman said that they are getting stronger and stronger.
So,I think It doesn't deny my statement. off course it is only my opinion though.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by the Darkone
PR Beyonder
PR MM
THanos w/HOTU

would a$$ rape him
Pretty much this.

Reflassshh
Originally posted by BeyonderGod
Pretty much this. Based on ?

Mindset
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Based on ? Them being stronger. smile

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Based on ?
↓
Originally posted by Mindset
Them being stronger. smile

Mindset said the correct answer.

Insane Titan
Doubt they would ass rape/stomp CA Superman.

Take the majority/stalemate, yes.

krisblaze
Abhi's Superman.

Quan's Thanos (no wait, he wins!)

Any Hulktard's Hulk.

Reflassshh
Originally posted by Mindset
Them being stronger. smile Well, being stronger doesn't equal to an ass-rape or curb-stomp. But meh..

Bentley
Originally posted by krisblaze
Quan's Thanos (no wait, he wins!)

Anything short of being OHKilled means Quan's Thanos wins thumb up

krisblaze
And Bentley's Kang shifty

Insane Titan
Originally posted by krisblaze
And Bentley's Kang shifty the thread said stalemate , not prep and still lose too!

Bentley
Originally posted by krisblaze
And Bentley's Kang shifty

Cosigned kangbiscuits

operator616
Originally posted by CatL18
Orrery of Worlds is said to be All-Enclosing Higher Dimensional Bulk in MAP of Multiverse.

"ORRERY OF WORLDS: 52 'brane universes vibrating in the same space, all at different frequencies, within the all-enclosing Bulk, otherwise known as Bleed-space. Four Bleed Siphons have been drilled in from Monitor Sphere to the Orrery, to permit the harvest of the miracle Ultramenstruum fluid."

If Other pararell earth is vibrating in same quantum space, It mean that All infinite universe is inside orrery of worlds. So, I think that orrery of world hold not only 52 but infinite universe.

It was shown in DC continuity that there is countless another dimension or divergent time line in prenew52 multiverse. For example, In camellot fall, There was possible time line that Superman is defeated by Khyber and Earth is doomed. I think that it is divergent future time line and it is within 52 multiverse.


Im familiar with its definition alright. And if you look at the definition you yourself just posted, you'd realize that the bleed is the all-enclosing bulk and not the orrery of worlds. So you're just presuming that Morrison did take into account that WS was actually a multiverse instead of a universe (mind you, that's an idea i myself presented which you didn't even consider at first and instead just presumed it had infinite universes based on nothing)? I realize you can apply it by default by it was definitely not the intention being presented in Superman Beyond. Read any mainstream DC comic which depicts the post-IC multiverse, and tell me of one instance where WS is regarded as being a multiverse. I can tell you right now: It's not, because when written in mainstream DC multiverse, WS is just a universe; when written in a WS comic, it's a multiverse. Otherwise, we'd have Mr. Mind altering infinite universes as well. Which is definitely not the case.

Since we can't seem to reach a conclusion. Go ahead and post evidence of your theory.


Possible futures were always present in every single year of every single era of DC. Not sure how that changes anything. Possible futures don't necessarily equate to actual alternate realities. In some cases, it does, in others (most when it comes to DC) it doesn't.

krisblaze
Operator, I agree with your idea of the Bleed, but it really seems unlikely that Morrison would forget that WS was not a multiverse. Especially when he wrote authority comics involving the bleed, etc.

operator616
Morrison only wrote the first 2 issues of Authority Lost Year. Then it was completed by Giffen who was the one who actually referenced infinite universes in that series. And Authority v4, which was the one who depicted bleed having more than 52 universes, wasn't written by Morrison either.

krisblaze
But it starts off as a universe where no one has any superpowers or whatever.

Clearly he's going to build on the concept of a multiverse.

operator616
Originally posted by krisblaze
But it starts off as a universe where no one has any superpowers or whatever.

Clearly he's going to build on the concept of a multiverse.

I don't care if Morrison depicted 1 alternate universe. Because that alternate universe could as well be one of the 52. I care only if he depicted more than 52 universes (Which is the case of Authority v4, and later in the Lost Year series).

And even then, given that Flashpoint treated WS as being a separate continuity/timeline from mainstream DC, it stands to reason that its dissociated from it.

And again, when depicted in a mainstream DC book, WS is a universe, and there's no doubt about it. Just see the 52 series.

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
Im familiar with its definition alright. And if you look at the definition you yourself just posted, you'd realize that the bleed is the all-enclosing bulk and not the orrery of worlds. So you're just presuming that Morrison did take into account that WS was actually a multiverse instead of a universe (mind you, that's an idea i myself presented which you didn't even consider at first and instead just presumed it had infinite universes based on nothing)? I realize you can apply it by default by it was definitely not the intention being presented in Superman Beyond. Read any mainstream DC comic which depicts the post-IC multiverse, and tell me of one instance where WS is regarded as being a multiverse. I can tell you right now: It's not, because when written in mainstream DC multiverse, WS is just a universe; when written in a WS comic, it's a multiverse. Otherwise, we'd have Mr. Mind altering infinite universes as well. Which is definitely not the case.
I'm sorry for irritating you, but,Doesn't orrery of worlds hold Breed?
I don't know much about WS multiverse, so I can't decide whether WS multiverse is within DC multiverse or not (As you said, It will not be within DC multiverse) But without them, Isn't there implication that Other universe which is pararell to 52 multiverse is there. For example, In FC legion of 3 worlds, Earth Prime was there, That is not 52 multiverse, but isn't that pararell to 52 multiverse? This is one of Final Crisis event.
And without them, Each earth has pararell Dimension like Azarath, Divergent time(or possible future) line like future in camellot fall or in Sorcerer King, Microverse like sub-atomica or Qwewq. Is there official statement that They are outside of Breed?
I am not as knowledgeable about DC cosmology as you. So,Please teach me.


Originally posted by operator616 Possible futures were always present in every single year of every single era of DC. Not sure how that changes anything. Possible futures don't necessarily equate to actual alternate realities. In some cases, it does, in others (most when it comes to DC) it doesn't.
Isn't presence of Possible Future evidence that there is divergent or possible time line?
Isn't many story in Pre New 52 era that Character from possible future or divergent time line appear?

CatL18
Sorry, Sub-Atomica is Marvel microverse.
But,There is nanoverse where Ray palmer was there.

operator616
Originally posted by CatL18
I'm sorry for irritating you, but,Doesn't orrery of worlds hold Breed?
I don't know much about WS multiverse, so I can't decide whether WS multiverse is within DC multiverse or not (As you said, It will not be within DC multiverse) But without them, Isn't there implication that Other universe which is pararell to 52 multiverse is there. For example, In FC legion of 3 worlds, Earth Prime was there, That is not 52 multiverse, but isn't that pararell to 52 multiverse? This is one of Final Crisis event.

The bleed is the space between the universes, so naturally, given that the orrery of worlds contains 52 of those, it does contain the bleed.

Im going to repeat this one last time and make it as simple as possible: Comics aren't perfect; there's continuity but it's not perfect either; there are contradictions and there are all types of mistakes and shit. On-panel it's been made clear that when written in a mainstream DC book, WS is regarded as a sole universe. In WS comics (like The Authority or Planetary comics) it's regarded as a multiverse even post-Captain Atom Armageddon (Which was equivalent of DC's IC, and was actually a step to reset WS continuity to a single universe but failed miserably).

There are many other realms/dimensions apart from the 52 universes. Phantom Zone, Bgtzl, Apokolips/New Genesis, Dream dimension, fifth dimension, Gemworld, Darkworld, Mera's wolrd, Olympus, Asgard, Anti-Matter universe, Skartaris (Warlord verse), Mohru dimension, Gobdor dimension (#24), Metazone, Warlock's dimension, etc... many other unnamed random dimensions featured in random comics. So yes, there are other dimensions apart from the main 52 ones, but not every single universe has those dimensions adjoining them. An yes, apparently Earth-prime is one of the 52 universes.

No. Because, as i said before, possible futures don't necessarily equate to alternate universes.

abhilegend
^That's not true. Majestic's solo series was definitely written under mainstream DCU and it flat out told that wildstorm was an infinite multiverse. DC was a multiverse by hypertime which was Morrison's idea.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hypertime. Multiverse never went away though. Here's the scan from JSA 13 which references multiverse

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12012154/m1.jpg.html

Here is the superman "saves the omniverse" scan

http://s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/?action=view&current=adventuresofsuperman617fi2.jpg

The fact that wildstorm universe was a part of DCU before IC which in itself was a multiverse should tell you that DC was never a single universe. Chalk it up to hypertime.

Astner
Opoc-AjMlww

operator616
Originally posted by abhilegend
^That's not true. Majestic's solo series was definitely written under mainstream DCU and it flat out told that wildstorm was an infinite multiverse. DC was a multiverse by hypertime which was Morrison's idea.

Eh, when did i deny that WS was not an infinite multiverse? Im the one who presented that idea to CatL18 in the first place.

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
Eh, when did i deny that WS was not an infinite multiverse? Im the one who presented that idea to CatL18 in the first place.
You said that when it is shown under DC, it is always just one universe. That is contradicted in majestic solo series.

operator616
Originally posted by abhilegend
You said that when it is shown under DC, it is always just one universe. That is contradicted in majestic solo series.

Majestic solo isn't mainstream DC. Same as the Authority.

operator616
Anyway, here's Habib dissociating the WS multiverse from mainstream DC in Captain Atom Armageddon series:

http://i.imgur.com/1DTnltY.jpg?1

"This group of universes" ---> the WS multiverse which is dissociated from mainstream DC.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by operator616
Just because Limbo is dissociated from the multiverse doesn't mean it's bigger.

You seem to have this misconception that any realm/dimension which exists outside the multiverse neccesarily means it's bigger. Well, im sorry to tell you that it's most definitely not

Going by your logic, shouldn't every single new god be bigger than the multiverse since they're, y'know, "above it"?

Doesn't every single angel in the silver city dwarf the multiverse because they're outside of it.

Hell, let's go even further, even pre-FP, Phantom Girl's dimension was outside the multiverse, does that mean that even freakin' Phantom Girl dwarfs the multiverse and is megaversal?

And every being in Gemworld since it is too outside the multiverse?

etc...

So i hope you see why your stance isn't supported by any evidence whatsoever. In fact, it's completely contradictory.

He's talking about the map, in the map all the spheres dwarf the multiverse, hence the statement

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by operator616
Anyway, here's Habib dissociating the WS multiverse from mainstream DC in Captain Atom Armageddon series:

http://i.imgur.com/1DTnltY.jpg?1

"This group of universes" ---> the WS multiverse which is dissociated from mainstream DC.

Can you help me with DC's cosmology? can you break down they're cosmology and explain just what DC is in the hierarchy of cosmology?

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
Im going to repeat this one last time and make it as simple as possible: Comics aren't perfect; there's continuity but it's not perfect either; there are contradictions and there are all types of mistakes and shit. On-panel it's been made clear that when written in a mainstream DC book, WS is regarded as a sole universe. In WS comics (like The Authority or Planetary comics) it's regarded as a multiverse even post-Captain Atom Armageddon (Which was equivalent of DC's IC, and was actually a step to reset WS continuity to a single universe but failed miserably).
I understand. So, I will not deny it.
But, What I want to say is that without them, DC has more universes.

Originally posted by operator616
There are many other realms/dimensions apart from the 52 universes. Phantom Zone, Bgtzl, Apokolips/New Genesis, Dream dimension, fifth dimension, Gemworld, Darkworld, Mera's wolrd, Olympus, Asgard, Anti-Matter universe, Skartaris (Warlord verse), Mohru dimension, Gobdor dimension (#24), Metazone, Warlock's dimension, etc... many other unnamed random dimensions featured in random comics. So yes, there are other dimensions apart from the main 52 ones, but not every single universe has those dimensions adjoining them. An yes, apparently Earth-prime is one of the 52 universes.

No. Because, as i said before, possible futures don't necessarily equate to alternate universes.
Darkseid and Apokolips is there in almost every universes. Azalath will be there at least earth where Raven appeared. Olympus is there in almost every universe. etc. So,I think It is safe that Each earth have many(possibly infinite) Dimensions.
As for earth prime, Is there statement that Earth Prime is one of 52 multiverse at that time?
As for Divergent Time Line or Possible future, Haven't Character in Main Time line arrived alternate Time line or Alternate Future? So, I think that these divergent time line is there as quantum divergent time line. It is not alternate universe, But It is there as Quantum pararell universe branching from Main universe.

operator616
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
He's talking about the map, in the map all the spheres dwarf the multiverse, hence the statement

I know what he's talking about.

got any actual proof that any of the spheres dwarf the multiverse or is just another assumption?

Originally posted by VastoLord1234
Can you help me with DC's cosmology? can you break down they're cosmology and explain just what DC is in the hierarchy of cosmology?

Answered your PM.

Originally posted by CatL18

Darkseid and Apokolips is there in almost every universes. Azalath will be there at least earth where Raven appeared. Olympus is there in almost every universe. etc. So,I think It is safe that Each earth have many(possibly infinite) Dimensions.
As for earth prime, Is there statement that Earth Prime is one of 52 multiverse at that time?
As for Divergent Time Line or Possible future, Haven't Character in Main Time line arrived alternate Time line or Alternate Future? So, I think that these divergent time line is there as quantum divergent time line. It is not alternate universe, But It is there as Quantum pararell universe branching from Main universe.

There are accounts which say that there is one Darkseid, there are other accounts which state there are alternate Darkseids.

Similarly, there are accounts which state that Apokolips is located beyond all space/time in a separate dimension, another account saying that it's located in a solar system which is separate from mainstream DCU, another one saying that Apokolips is actually merely light years away from Earth.

More contradictions on these accounts is that it says that since Apokolips is located beyond all time/space it cannot be reached by anything except via boom tube yet we've seen GLs go to Apokolips and in another instance Grayven was about to use the Zeta beam to go to Apokolips, and matrix Supergirl reached it too. etc..

So really, which one of them is true? confused

Given the contradictory nature of comics, that's why ive been saying: go by the writer's intention. What was Morrison's intention in Superman Beyond? 52 universes and nothing more.

And im pretty sure that Azarath was intended to be a nexus of sorts between all realities. Established either in the first arc of NTT v1 or v2. But either way, it doesn't change anything really.

No, but given that it was specifically mentioned in a superman comic to be destroyed it didn't just magically reappear.

Golgo13
Dan Didio went on record saying there is only one Darkseid and one set of New Gods throughout the Multiverse.

operator616
^ in N52 there have been no implications that there is more than one Darkseid or Apokolips. I was talking about pre-FP.

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
Majestic solo isn't mainstream DC. Same as the Authority.
Adventures of Superman isn't DC mainstream either, I guess.

http://www.postimg.com/thumbs/185000/adventures20of20superman20624-p002-184970.jpg

CatL18
Originally posted by operator616
There are accounts which say that there is one Darkseid, there are other accounts which state there are alternate Darkseids.

Similarly, there are accounts which state that Apokolips is located beyond all space/time in a separate dimension, another account saying that it's located in a solar system which is separate from mainstream DCU, another one saying that Apokolips is actually merely light years away from Earth.

More contradictions on these accounts is that it says that since Apokolips is located beyond all time/space it cannot be reached by anything except via boom tube yet we've seen GLs go to Apokolips and in another instance Grayven was about to use the Zeta beam to go to Apokolips, and matrix Supergirl reached it too. etc..

So really, which one of them is true? confused
I know well about inconsistency of comic,and It often confuse me, but It doesn't change that There is many pararell Dimensions in each universe, doesn't it?

Originally posted by operator616
Given the contradictory nature of comics, that's why ive been saying: go by the writer's intention. What was Morrison's intention in Superman Beyond? 52 universes and nothing more.
If We discuss writer's intention, Doesn't Monitor and Breed hold not only 52 multiverse but entire creation of DC? Because Monitor is send to Multiverse as Probe by Primal Monitor When Story of Superman was born for the first time. And In Final Crisis , It is implied that Story of Superman is first born of DC creation. So,In Morrison's intention,Monitor is there from Golden Age after Superman was born. In the first place Monitor is metaphor of writer or editor. And It is implied that Breed is ink which is used to draw all story of DC comic, And It has been written as so in Multiversity. So, In Writer's implication, Doesn't Breed have capacity to hold all of DC creation?
And This is not writer's intention, In Convergence, There is Pre Flashpoint 52 multiverse and Pre-Crisis Multiverse. But Nix Uotan is same person as Pre-Flash point himself. Doesn't it imply that Monitor watch not only New52 multiverse but other, And Monitor Sphere dwarf them?
Off course, It is my opinion about implication of Final Crisis. What do you think?


Originally posted by operator616
And im pretty sure that Azarath was intended to be a nexus of sorts between all realities. Established either in the first arc of NTT v1 or v2. But either way, it doesn't change anything really.
But Without Azarath, There is many minor pararell Dimension like Dark world. So It doesn't matter.


Originally posted by operator616
No, but given that it was specifically mentioned in a superman comic to be destroyed it didn't just magically reappear.
Isn't it violent interpretation that Divergent Timeline which doesn't reapear is no more?
And Even if they are no more, Everything which is forfotten in DC creation is sent to Limbo, Limbo is sum of forgotten character,universe,object,etc.And CAS is far bigger than Limbo. So It doesn't matter

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
Anyway, here's Habib dissociating the WS multiverse from mainstream DC in Captain Atom Armageddon series:

http://i.imgur.com/1DTnltY.jpg?1

"This group of universes" ---> the WS multiverse which is dissociated from mainstream DC.
That's a weird explanation. Considering Captain Atom traveled to wildstorm by bleed, majestic traveled to DC via bleed and Superman/Eradicator traveled to Wildstorm by bleed.

BeyonderGod
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Doubt they would ass rape/stomp CA Superman.

Take the majority/stalemate, yes.
The people listed would rape CA Superman

operator616
Originally posted by abhilegend
Adventures of Superman isn't DC mainstream either, I guess.

http://www.postimg.com/thumbs/185000/adventures20of20superman20624-p002-184970.jpg

What is this? That's totally irrelevant. because this scan is not only pre-IC, but also doesn't reference an "infinite multiverse" nor do any of the other superman issues of the arc. That's just Majestic saying that he isn't in his own universe, or any of the universes associated with WS's. So im not sure what's the point of posting that scan.


Originally posted by abhilegend
That's a weird explanation. Considering Captain Atom traveled to wildstorm by bleed, majestic traveled to DC via bleed and Superman/Eradicator traveled to Wildstorm by bleed.

dood, again: What has this got to do with anything? FC secret files establishes that the bleed is an access point to multiverses (plural):

http://i.imgur.com/6IVsc9M.jpg?1

So why can't one travel through the bleed from one to the other? Just imagine that the universes associated with mainstream DC are clustered together closely but are farther away than WS's clustered universes, and you'll get the basic idea.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by operator616
I know what he's talking about.

got any actual proof that any of the spheres dwarf the multiverse or is just another assumption?


Answered your PM.


Im not agreeing with anyone, im just saying, the spheres look bigger.

http://media.dcentertainment.com/sites/default/files/Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg

The spheres look much bigger than the multiverse.

BeyonderGod
Can't this die?

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
What is this? That's in response to this.

Originally posted by operator616
On-panel it's been made clear that when written in a mainstream DC book, WS is regarded as a sole universe.



That's a lot of denial for a simple scan.





And Mandrakk was threatening entire creation. But its nice to know final crisis mentioned different multiverses, that makes Mandrakk even more powerful.

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