Chick Fight!

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Angelalex242
Bastila Shan, Nomi Sunrider, Meetra Surik, Satele Shan vs. Aayla Secura, Leia Organa Solo, Jaina Solo Fel, Mara Jade Skywalker.

Just for the lulz, battle takes place in a jello pit.

Tickets are being sold for 1,000 credits a pop.

Who wins? Besides the Audience, that is.

Fated Xtasy
The chicks refuse to fight, turn to the OP and blast him along with the audience into the sun.
/Thread

carthage
team 2.

AncientPower
The winner is misogyny by entire magnitudes.

S_W_LeGenD
Team 1 in a good fight.

Nephthys
Team 1 not in a good fight.

|King Joker|
Team 2.

AncientPower
Taking this seriously I would say that the Force Bonds/Battle Melds of team 2 and the internal amplifications they can produce would be too much for team 1.

S_W_LeGenD
All members of Team 1 are capable of creating Force Bonds and Satele Shan is arguably the strongest Force-user in this contest.

Team 1 really outguns Team 2.

AncientPower
Erm you missed the point, Leia and Jaina share a very strong Force Bond due to being Mother and Daughter. Mara Jade developed a strong bond with both of them, especially Jaina. Combine this with all three's penchant for Battle Meld and include their excessive talents for internal amplifications, augmentations and healing. Essentially it leaves Team 2 with the best duelists, the best healers, incomparable levels of team work and essentially endless reserves of energy.

Whilst Battle Meditation will help Team 1, the issue of force reserves comes into play and beyond that they are outclassed in both skill and power.

Mara Jade and Jaina Solo are both very powerful Jedi Masters, they have both dominated a combatant as strong as Caedus and Leia is effectively one of the best support characters in the mythos.

Aayla Secura can play bodyguard on Leia, as Leia amps her family members exponentially.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Erm you missed the point, Leia and Jaina share a very strong Force Bond due to being Mother and Daughter. Mara Jade developed a strong bond with both of them, especially Jaina. Combine this with all three's penchant for Battle Meld and include their excessive talents for internal amplifications, augmentations and healing. Essentially it leaves Team 2 with the best duelists, the best healers, incomparable levels of team work and essentially endless reserves of energy.
Best duelists? This is subjective.

Best healers? How is this going to help?

Surik and Satele are very good in martial aspects of combat, among the best. Bastilla and Nomi aren't lacking either.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Whilst Battle Meditation will help Team 1, the issue of force reserves comes into play and beyond that they are outclassed in both skill and power.
Till now, I find Satele Shan best among female Jedi in most aspects. If Barsen'thor III is established as a female then only she would seem to surpass Satele Shan among Jedi in power and skill.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Mara Jade and Jaina Solo are both very powerful Jedi Masters, they have both dominated a combatant as strong as Caedus and Leia is effectively one of the best support characters in the mythos.
Mara and Jaina held their own against Caedus only in circumstantial manner. Mara entered a cave and used that setting to her advantage and Caedus remained reluctant to kill Jaina.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Aayla Secura can play bodyguard on Leia, as Leia amps her family members exponentially.
Bastilla Shan can help her Team 1 in similar ways and her BM potential is the best I have yet seen among females.

Angelalex242
So easy to get self righteous about the venue isn't it?

But, the jello pit is actually NOT neutral ground. If the jello is about waist deep or so (And it is), then it's deep enough for Mara in particular to duck underneath it. Once out of sight...well, if her Force Concealment as a teenager is capable of hiding from Vader, there's nobody on team 1 who can see her coming as a Jedi Master. Do not underestimate the power of a stealth kill.

Aayla is admittedly the weakest link of team 2, but Leia and Jaina are still Skywalkers, and Jaina should be able to take Satele Shan when they inevitably face off. The battle meditation of team 1 does typically require some peace and quiet to actually use, but peace and quiet is hard to come by when Mara's doing stealth kills. Her original job description is 'assassin'. Don't ever forget it.

Sinious
Bastila solos.

Nephthys
Aayla and Leia are both fairly mediocre. Leia's Skywalker status hasn't really helped her much in combat, and she's very old. Bastila is mediocre in a fight as well, but her Battle Meditation will be invaluable.

Angelalex242
Accusing Leia of being old is kinda silly, when guys like Dooku kick ass into their 80s. And Leia, who, let us recall, is Luke's twin...is only in her 60s.

When it comes to the Force, age usually has privilege, and being older then your competition is typically a good thing.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Accusing Leia of being old is kinda silly, when guys like Dooku kick ass into their 80s. And Leia, who, let us recall, is Luke's twin...is only in her 60s.

When it comes to the Force, age usually has privilege, and being older then your competition is typically a good thing.
Age is not a privilege for Force-users, experience. Combination of experience, command of the Force, and physical fitness actually makes difference.

Count Dooku aged gracefully due to being a Jedi. He possibly began to diminish after embracing the dark side. Dark side practices are known to accelerate aging.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Accusing Leia of being old is kinda silly, when guys like Dooku kick ass into their 80s. And Leia, who, let us recall, is Luke's twin...is only in her 60s.

When it comes to the Force, age usually has privilege, and being older then your competition is typically a good thing.

Dooku kept in great shape and kept up with his jedi training and is much better at using the force to negate his age than Leia is because of his advanced force mastery. I don't recall anything suggesting Leia is in particularly good physical nick. Being older is only better if you're improving upon your force mastery and knowledge and so you're more advanced than you were when you were younger. Since Leia has relatively minimal training, she's not comparable to Dooku in that regard.

Selenial
Imagining Surik fighting with Bastila/Satele Battle Meditation is making me wet

Team 1 semi stomps.

Selenial
Surik > Jaina, Satele > Mara, Nomi can TP Aayla in seconds which leaves Leia fighting two incredibly coordinated and powerful fighters.

Suriks Wound bonds are stronger than melds, she can communicate information and her own abilities to others through her wound.

Surik and Nomi fighting together would literally transform Nomi into an actually decent duelist, allowing her to push Leia alone while Bastilla amps them all.

Stigma
Chicks win

ares834
Team 2 in a fairly close fight.

Jaina is the most powerful one here BTW.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ares834
Jaina is the most powerful one here BTW.
Based on?

ares834
Learning from Quan I see.

NewGuy01
Team 2.

Angelalex242
I have yet to see how anyone on team 1 sees Mara coming. Her Force Cloak is easily among the best in the Mythos.

Team 2 has this, if only due to lightsaber in the back tactics.

NewGuy01
Not an easily applicable tactic mid-combat, bro.

Angelalex242
Do remember the idea was for her to use the environment...in this case, the jello...and then cloak. She basically goes invisible, and that, combined with a better then her husband danger sense, should allow her to stab at least one of team 1 in the back.

Force Stealth is her best power, really, so I'm always looking for ways for her to apply it.

carthage
Not seeing how BM is that big of a deal, the skill gap from team to team two is quite large.

Mara or Jaina would stomp Satele badly

Selenial
Satele is good, force power Titan.

She might lose to Mara, But Jaina would lose to Surik.

And Suriks bond allows her to actually increase Shans Bladework, and share power. Her Valor, resistance and Force Speed is also transferred.

Angelalex242
None of which prevents Meetra from being stabbed in the back due to concealment.

S_W_LeGenD
Nobody in Team 2 can take on Satele Shan head on, her powers are too overwhelming. In addition, Satele Shan is really fast by Jedi standards. She also demonstrated great awareness and very impressive reflexes during her clash with Darth Malgus on Aldeeran; she successfully dodged, evaded and responded to several attacks that could have ended her life.

Selenial
Again, if Traya can't do it to her, Mara can't.

Surik was trained to not fall for that shit, by Traya herself.

Angelalex242
Mara's stealth is superior to Traya's.

She can sneak up on Vader. As a Teenager. Imagine how much better she got when her age tripled and she became an official jedi master. She can probably sneak up on just about anyone now.

carthage
Did she sneak up on him in Shadows of the empire?

I haven't read that one yet, still currently reading LOTF Exile and it's boring me.

Angelalex242
Not sure what book it's in, I picked the fact up from evannova's Mara vs. Darth Malgus video (where Mara narrowly won. Do not underestimate her!)

I do recall from the video that she was sneaking around Vader for months, reporting on his actions back to Palpatine.

While Traya's got some stealth feats of her own, they don't compare with hiding from Vader for months on end...as a teenager! This is something she was doing as a padawan, more or less.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Not sure what book it's in, I picked the fact up from evannova's Mara vs. Darth Malgus video (where Mara narrowly won. Do not underestimate her!)
And you take his assessment seriously? Darth Malgus would mop the floor with her in a fair confrontation. He also have demonstrated the capability to detect those Force-users who could suppress their signatures and make an attempt to ambush him by concealing themselves using both the setting and Force suppression talent to their advantage.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
I do recall from the video that she was sneaking around Vader for months, reporting on his actions back to Palpatine.

While Traya's got some stealth feats of her own, they don't compare with hiding from Vader for months on end...as a teenager! This is something she was doing as a padawan, more or less.
Details?

Trocity
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Satele Shan is really fast by Jedi standards. She also demonstrated great awareness and very impressive reflexes during her clash with Darth Malgus on Aldeeran; she successfully dodged, evaded and responded to several attacks that could have ended her life.

Well that really seals the deal; she's fast and has shown great reflexes.

The other characters in this thread can not hope to match her, she successfully dodged and parried attacks that would have otherwise ended her life, unlike every other duel in the SW mythos.

Lol.

ILS
Originally posted by Trocity
Well that really seals the deal; she's fast and has shown great reflexes.

The other characters in this thread can not hope to match her, she successfully dodged and parried attacks that would have otherwise ended her life, unlike every other duel in the SW mythos.

Lol. Agreed, Satele is a machine thumb up

NewGuy01
Originally posted by carthage
Did she sneak up on him in Shadows of the empire?

I haven't read that one yet, still currently reading LOTF Exile and it's boring me.

Shadows of the Empire doesn't have Mara in it, the story is a set up for ROTJ, and basically revolves around Black Sun. Fairly decent read.

Angelalex242
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udd3DYiNut0

Watch Evannova's video yourself, that's all I can say.

Basically, his conclusion is that while Malgus would steamroll Mara, pretty much like Ven Zallow in a straight fight, Mara doesn't DO straight fights. She Batmans people, and she's sufficiently good at it to take advantage of Malgus's lack of spatial awareness to get him.

TheDarthBoy
Originally posted by Angelalex242
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udd3DYiNut0

Watch Evannova's video yourself, that's all I can say.

Basically, his conclusion is that while Malgus would steamroll Mara, pretty much like Ven Zallow in a straight fight, Mara doesn't DO straight fights. She Batmans people, and she's sufficiently good at it to take advantage of Malgus's lack of spatial awareness to get him.


yeaaaah somene else who love his videos and uses his sources.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Trocity
Well that really seals the deal; she's fast and has shown great reflexes.

The other characters in this thread can not hope to match her, she successfully dodged and parried attacks that would have otherwise ended her life, unlike every other duel in the SW mythos.

Lol.
Perhaps my previous point is lacking.

Satele Shan had an answer for any situation and development during her confrontation with Darth Malgus which is really telling about her speed, reflexes, awareness and mastery of the Force. In addition, she have sufficient raw power to overwhelm any opponent in Team 2 with her powers. A lethal package.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udd3DYiNut0

Watch Evannova's video yourself, that's all I can say.

Basically, his conclusion is that while Malgus would steamroll Mara, pretty much like Ven Zallow in a straight fight, Mara doesn't DO straight fights. She Batmans people, and she's sufficiently good at it to take advantage of Malgus's lack of spatial awareness to get him.
Did he considered Malgus's ability to detect stealthy opponents in his assessment?

The point of lack of spatial awareness is really telling about his lack of information about Malgus's talents actually. He may have overlooked revelations of The Third Lesson.

I don't spend time on YouTube to correct people.

Angelalex242
Actually, he didn't use Mara's stealth in the fight, claiming it's useless in a pitched duel. This is Mara without stealthing, instead relying on more normal Batmaning strategies. He said it'd basically be Mustafar, with Mara standing in for Kenobi.

He did emphasize that Mara can't make ANY mistakes and it's a narrow victory, but she still pulls it off. I think he'd say Mara takes 11/20. Or so.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Actually, he didn't use Mara's stealth in the fight, claiming it's useless in a pitched duel. This is Mara without stealthing, instead relying on more normal Batmaning strategies. He said it'd basically be Mustafar, with Mara standing in for Kenobi.

He did emphasize that Mara can't make ANY mistakes and it's a narrow victory, but she still pulls it off. I think he'd say Mara takes 11/20. Or so.
And he is even more wrong then I thought earlier.

Mara cannot cope with Malgus for long in a pitched battle. And neither can she countercheck or neuter Malgus's powers like Obi-Wan managed to against Anakin.

Also, I am curious about batmanning strategies based argument. What kind of batmanning strategies can Mara pull off in a fair confrontation or pitched battle?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Emperor Malgus would slaughter poor Mara.

Nephthys
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Emperor Malgus would slaughter poor Mara.

Angelalex242
He pronounced Mara and Malgus equals in both the Force and Dueling. The only mismatches were Malgus's absurd strength and Mara's tools, including blaster and crush gauntlets.

Shows you how highly he thinks of Mara, or how low he thinks of Malgus, depending on your point of view.

TheDarthBoy
Team 2

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
He pronounced Mara and Malgus equals in both the Force and Dueling. The only mismatches were Malgus's absurd strength and Mara's tools, including blaster and crush gauntlets.

Shows you how highly he thinks of Mara, or how low he thinks of Malgus, depending on your point of view.
He is an idiot and unreliable. This much I can say at the moment.

Angelalex242
Well, the Tier list has them both at Tier 8s, with Malgus having only minor edges.

Hence, close enough that Evannova cannot be declared an idiot for having an opinion. And Ad Hominem is bad form in debate anyway.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Angelalex242
He pronounced Mara and Malgus equals in both the Force and Dueling. The only mismatches were Malgus's absurd strength and Mara's tools, including blaster and crush gauntlets.

Shows you how highly he thinks of Mara, or how low he thinks of Malgus, depending on your point of view.

Its the latter.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well, the Tier list has them both at Tier 8s, with Malgus having only minor edges.

Hence, close enough that Evannova cannot be declared an idiot for having an opinion. And Ad Hominem is bad form in debate anyway.
Malgus and Mara cannot be realistically in the same TIER. Only fools would propose this.

Malgus approached (Sith Emperor) TIER in the context of Sith hierarchy officially. Go figure.

If Mara was so powerful and capable (as some fans assume her to be) then Darth Sidious would have considered her for apprenticeship and pitted her against Darth Vader to test her skills. This didn't happen.

Mara is a highly competent assassin but she is not Sith Lord material. Her performance against Darth Caedus is absolutely circumstantial, the latter underestimated her decision-making potential (tactical brilliance) and this is why he faltered. In fact, Darth Caedus is also immensely overhyped in competence and power by many fans.

I am very well informed about Malgus and TOR era literature in general and I also have access to all of the lore featuring Mara at my disposal, therefore my short responses should not be mistaken for my lack of knowledge. Ad Hominem is not my way of debating but I do no shy away from pointing out absurdities in POV of people.

Angelalex242
Well, it'd be the reverse for me. I'm willing to give Mara quite a lot of credit. I've studied her lately.

And she did make it to Jedi Master and Council Member in the NJO.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well, it'd be the reverse for me. I'm willing to give Mara quite a lot of credit. I've studied her lately.

And she did make it to Jedi Master and Council Member in the NJO.
Then you should have no trouble at convincing critics about Mara being equal to Malgus, I am waiting for convincing assessment in this regard. So far, I am just dealing with hype and opinions concerning Mara's competence and power, nothing concrete.

Sith rankings are much more power-oriented then Jedi rankings. Sith Emperor is the highest and most difficult rank to achieve in the Sith hierarchy and few in the entirety of the mythos have the power to become an Emperor.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Give her all the credit you want, but putting Mara ahead of the Dark Lord who consistently annihilated the jedi order's best before fully harnessing his rage and focus, which in turn exponentially increased his power, and 20 more years until his reign as False Emperor in which he'd mastered the force maelstrom, the stepping stone to the ultimate dark side ability, is a different story.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Nicely put.

carthage
Yeah he'd beat her via power

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
sabers as well tbh.

S_W_LeGenD
He will chop off her hands as well.

Angelalex242
...I don't think that was Emperor Malgus in the fight. Evannova goes on and on about how he always gets caught by unarmed attacks and has no spatial awareness. Perhaps it's an early Malgus she beat.

The Emperor version seems to be as far beyond normal Malgus as DE Sidious is beyond the normal version.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Even assuming it was Deceived Malgus, he'd still win.

And yeah, Emperor Malgus is vastly superior to his Deceived counterpart.

Angelalex242
As far as I can tell, the Tier 8 Malgus listed couldn't possibly be Emperor Malgus. As you say, you don't get that title without being at least a 9. And he was probably pretty close to Vitiate's level.

Caedus is certainly the mightiest Sith who probably could've been an Emperor but never took that title.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
...I don't think that was Emperor Malgus in the fight. Evannova goes on and on about how he always gets caught by unarmed attacks and has no spatial awareness. Perhaps it's an early Malgus she beat.

The Emperor version seems to be as far beyond normal Malgus as DE Sidious is beyond the normal version.
Few have managed to land unarmed blows on Malgus during confrontations actually; I recall Aryn Leener pulling this off.

As for the awareness:-

He was baiting him, Malgus realized. Feigning weakness.

Malgus relented in his attack, backed off a few steps, and reached out through the Force. Immediately he felt the faint, intentionally suppressed signature of another light-side user to his right. The Jedi's ally was hidden in the rubble, moving closer.

Malgus loosed a furious series of overhand strikes that forced the Zabrak to retreat rapidly. Sidestepping a stab from the Jedi, Malgus rode his motion into a Force-augmented spinning side kick that hit the Jedi in the ribs and sent him cartwheeling into the wall of nearby building. At the same time, he reached out with the Force for the hidden light-side user, brushed aside the resistance he felt, and pulled the Jedi out of hiding.

A human male in his twenties rose up out of ruins, dangling like a fish on the hook of Malgus's power. His legs kicked futilely; the green blade of his lightsaber cut at empty air; he gagged as Malgus's power squeezed shut his throat.

"Vorin!" shouted the Zabrak.

"So much for your ambush," Malgus said, and closed his fist, crushing Vorin's windpipe. He let the body fall to the charred earth. A flash of anger, quickly suppressed, shot from the Zabrak as he bounded over the rubble at Malgus. Malgus watched him come, his red blade held slack at his side.

Taken from (SWTOR: The Third Lesson)

carthage
The Malgus you're referring too is his Emperor Malgus incarnation, and no in terms of dueling skill he isnt tier 9

Angelalex242
I believe the examples used were a soldier managing to put a grenade in his face, and him getting kicked during the sacking of the temple.

Both appear to be videogame cutscenes.

carthage
Those are both well before his prime, his prime was beating the strike team down. Any feats from those trailers to the Deceived novel are well before that

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nah, Malgus wasn't close to Vitiate level, in all honesty. At best you could say Malgus is a a solid tier below Vitiate. The closest to the Sith Emperor in the era was Revan, and even he is revealed to be epically outmatched according to the new expansion.

But yeah, Emperor Malgus is probably higher than tier 8, but that would depend who he's categorized with and who's above him.

carthage
I never said he was Vitiates level, he's just shown no feats of skill higher than Vader, Dooku, or Anakin in dueling.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
edit: oops.

@cart: I was talking to angel when he said emperor Malgus is close to vitiate.

Angelalex242
I'm a little confused here. Either Malgus has a 9 somewhere as the Emperor, or he's not that much stronger then Mara.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
I believe the examples used were a soldier managing to put a grenade in his face, and him getting kicked during the sacking of the temple.

Both appear to be videogame cutscenes.
Key word: context

Malgus was contending with Satele Shan and Jace Malcom took advantage of this situation. He wouldn't have this opportunity under fair circumstances.

Zallow is more impressive then he seems to be in the SWTOR Deceived cinematic trailer. A novel offers full detail of this confrontation. And he managed to hit Malgus only once, but not with a kick. Malgus managed to kicked Zallow earlier actually.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Emperor Malgus is a tier 9 Sith Lord.

Deceived Malgus is somewhere in Tier 8, most likely

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
As far as I can tell, the Tier 8 Malgus listed couldn't possibly be Emperor Malgus. As you say, you don't get that title without being at least a 9. And he was probably pretty close to Vitiate's level.
If 1 - 10 is the TIER based ranking scale with 1 representing the weakest and 10 representing the strongest point, Emperor Malgus is likely TIER 9 and Emperor Vitiate is likely TIER 10.

In the lore, Emperor Vitiate absolutely eclipses the power of any Jedi and Sith in history, is touted to be the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy in history. He is likely to have rivals among entities holistically.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Caedus is certainly the mightiest Sith who probably could've been an Emperor but never took that title.
I am not sure about this.

Based on the aforementioned ranking scale, I consider Darth Caedus to be TIER 8 which is very good nonetheless.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Emperor Malgus is a tier 9 Sith Lord.

Deceived Malgus is somewhere in Tier 8, most likely
Agreed.

Angelalex242
Caedus usually rates 9.5, actually. At least, he does in the EU thread we're building.

Do not underestimate the power of Skywalker's lineage.

Vitiate cannot go toe to toe with Sidious.

Of course, we're WAY off topic.

In this thread, we're trying to prove Mara can stealth and kill her opponents in this scenario. Or at least, I am. Malgus's strength isn't actually relevant.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
I'm a little confused here. Either Malgus has a 9 somewhere as the Emperor, or he's not that much stronger then Mara.
Mara, during her prime, is TIER 6. And this is generous assessment.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Caedus usually rates 9.5, actually. At least, he does in the EU thread we're building.
He is not that strong.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Do not underestimate the power of Skywalker's lineage.
I do not.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Vitiate cannot go toe to toe with Sidious.
Based on?

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Of course, we're WAY off topic.

In this thread, we're trying to prove Mara can stealth and kill her opponents in this scenario. Or at least, I am. Malgus's strength isn't actually relevant.
OK.

However, Mara is unlikely to pull off a successful stealthy attack unless the setting favors element of surprise for her.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Caedus usually rates 9.5, actually. At least, he does in the EU thread we're building.

Do not underestimate the power of Skywalker's lineage.

Vitiate cannot go toe to toe with Sidious.

Of course, we're WAY off topic.

In this thread, we're trying to prove Mara can stealth and kill her opponents in this scenario. Or at least, I am. Malgus's strength isn't actually relevant.

I'd clock Caedus as high Tier 9. Behind Revan Reborn of course. cool

Not all of them are insurmountable Gods.

Yeah, I'd say he certainly can. Though admittedly I am going to do a complete re-examination of all the Emperor's feats and accolades.

And prove away you can. thumb up

Angelalex242
We have her listed as an 8 in our thread. The bottom of 8, but 8 nonetheless. Jaina is a higher 8, but still an 8.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
We have her listed as an 8 in our thread. The bottom of 8, but 8 nonetheless. Jaina is a higher 8, but still an 8.
I wonder who is creating these rankings. Neither of these qualify for TIER 8.

I would put Mara (Prime) at TIER 6 and Jaina (Prime) at TIER 5.

Satele Shan (Prime), who is solidly above any female Jedi in this contest in raw power and mastery of the Force, fits in the TIER 7.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Even assuming it was Deceived Malgus, he'd still win.

And yeah, Emperor Malgus is vastly superior to his Deceived counterpart.

I have yet to see evidence for this.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Malgus's pre-waifu lightning was deflected fairly casually in mid-air by Aryn Leneer. The same effort post-waifu quickly destroyed her lightsaber defenses and eliminated her. add 20 years to this and the added ability of force maelstrom, plus the effectiveness boost he'd get in lightsaber combat from his power increasing, and it is a vast superiority, IMO.

Angelalex242
It's the thread Carthage made in the non versus forum, if you're wondering.

Leia is also rated an 8 force side, if you're wondering. So when we say team 2 wins, we're counting on the 3 8s of team 2 being enough to carry Aayla to victory.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I have yet to see evidence for this.
Malgus continuously increased in power. He became noticeably stronger at the end of story arc of Deceived.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Angelalex242
It's the thread Carthage made in the non versus forum, if you're wondering.

Leia is also rated an 8 force side, if you're wondering. So when we say team 2 wins, we're counting on the 3 8s of team 2 being enough to carry Aayla to victory.
That thread is not by any means evidence.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
It's the thread Carthage made in the non versus forum, if you're wondering.

Leia is also rated an 8 force side, if you're wondering. So when we say team 2 wins, we're counting on the 3 8s of team 2 being enough to carry Aayla to victory.
That thread represents his POV, and not the best of informed assessments.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
That thread is not by any means evidence.
Exactly

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The chicks refuse to fight, turn to the OP and blast him along with the audience into the sun.
/Thread

This!

|King Joker|
Aayla is also capable of Force cloak in combat, for what it's worth.

Angelalex242
Yes, yes, we can debate my taste in jokes later. :P

Anyways, the idea of a stealth kill from Mara remains on the table if she can duck out of sight. Nobody on Team 1 has any proven ability to see through Cloaking of her level.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He became noticeably stronger at the end of story arc of Deceived.

Im talking about between the end of Decieved and TOR, bro.

carthage
Originally posted by Emperordmb
That thread is not by any means evidence.

Are you still butthurt about that thread? Sorry not all of us can compare Kas'im to Exar Kun.

AncientPower
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mara, during her prime, is TIER 6. And this is generous assessment.

I take it you haven't read NJO or LOTF if you think Mara is tier 6, definitely a tier 8, her respect thread would be good reading for you.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
I take it you haven't read NJO or LOTF if you think Mara is tier 6, definitely a tier 8, her respect thread would be good reading for you.
I have seen her respect thread on comicvine. Nothing in it implies TIER 8 level power and competence.

She have some good esoteric talents and is reasonable with TK. Nothing grand.

Her competence lay in smart decision-making, she may even choose to fight an opponent in a setting of her choice where she can gain advantage. However, she is far from being infallible. And versus scenarios are rarely story-oriented.

Satele Shan would wreck her with her powers, and then snap her neck.

AncientPower
If it was so easy to trash Mara Jade with the Force she would have been killed long before Caedus by the numerous opponents she has faced, many of whom are considerably more powerful than Satele Shan.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
If it was so easy to trash Mara Jade with the Force she would have been killed long before Caedus by the numerous opponents she has faced, many of whom are considerably more powerful than Satele Shan.
Considerably more powerful then Satele Shan? laughing out loud

Joke of the month awards goes to you.

Angelalex242
Practically speaking, Mara has encountered 4 Sith more powerful then Shan.

Vader, Sidious, Lumiya, Caedus.

For all that C'baoth was a nuisance, however, he probably can't take Shan.

This doesn't count any jedi she's sparred against for practice and training, notably her husband. Sparring against one that can take out Team 1 by himself is sure to be good for her. At the very least, it means Team 1 can throw nothing at her she hasn't seen before. She's going to have tactics prepared for what happens when she's outgunned as a force user, as a duelist, or both. She uses many of these against Caedus, and it works well enough he's forced to rely on a dirty trick to get her.

None of her her opponents in this match have a poison dart gauntlet to kill her off with.

Speaking of which, let's not underestimate Mrs. Fel and her Boba Fett training. Boba's one of the best jedi killers ever for a guy with no force powers. And he taught Jaina pretty much everything he knew, on the theory that no matter who won between herself and Caedus, Han Solo was going to hurt. He was right, naturally.

Leia's battle meditation is an adequate counter for Team 1's use of the same.

Nephthys
Lol @ Lumiya being stronger than Shan. Lumiya isn't even stronger than a random Jedi Knight. She's trash.

And the others utterly outclass Mara in a straight confrontation. So I don't see the point in bringing them up.

Angelalex242
If Lumiya's trash, how do you explain her surviving so many confrontations with Luke Skywalker himself? They can't ALL be Plot Induced Stupidity.

The point of bringing them up is that Mara can, and often has, dealt with being outgunned and came out on top. In the chaos of a 4 on 4 battle, there's sure to be ample opportunities for her to do what she does best.

It's not exactly uncommon in Star Wars for an outgunned character to win based on circumstance. Even if the circumstance is as simple as ObiWan having the high ground.

carthage
Satele got trashed by Malgus twice before his prime and couldnt even beat a Baras who Lumiya would stomp. Satele would get destroyed in a duel by either Jaina or Mara

Nephthys
Originally posted by Angelalex242
If Lumiya's trash, how do you explain her surviving so many confrontations with Luke Skywalker himself? They can't ALL be Plot Induced Stupidity.

The point of bringing them up is that Mara can, and often has, dealt with being outgunned and came out on top. In the chaos of a 4 on 4 battle, there's sure to be ample opportunities for her to do what she does best.

It's not exactly uncommon in Star Wars for an outgunned character to win based on circumstance. Even if the circumstance is as simple as ObiWan having the high ground.

Yeah, pretty much. Lumiya's whip makes things tricky and Luke did date her for a bit so he probably doesn't want to slaughter her. Plus Luke always holds back, particularly in the force and is extremely inconsistent. You don't think he could have ragdolled her if he wanted? Lumiya has no business being in the same league as Vader.

When did she come out on top of Vader and Sidious? The Caedus thing was his own arrogance and circumstance.

Circumstances which don't exist in a versus thread.

Angelalex242
Well, when he was blaming Lumiya for Mara's death...it went about like you're describing, only more brutal. I kept waiting for her to use the 'strike me down with all of your hatred' line in that duel, but she apparently didn't think of it.

She came out on top of Vader when she successfully spied on him for months at Palpatine's order. Mind you, she was a teenage padawan at the time.

She overcame Sidious by defying the Last Command, killing the clone instead of the genuine article. If that doesn't sound like much of an overcoming, it's as well as anybody not named Luke does against Sidious. Again, this is LONG before her prime.

Emperordmb
Didn't Ben think it was Jacen the whole time, but Luke was like "Nah, you're just letting emotion cloud your judgement."

It's amusing how often that happens, a younger Jedi realizing a significant truth, only for another Jedi to completely dismiss it on the grounds that the younger Jedi is "just being emotional."

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Practically speaking, Mara has encountered 4 Sith more powerful then Shan.

Vader, Sidious, Lumiya, Caedus.
When did she fought Vader and Sidious?

Lumiya isn't powerful like Shan. Vader's superiority is also in doubt.

Caedus performed badly due to his poor judgment and arrogance. Mara fought him in a setting of her choice but she still failed.

I don't get the lowballing of Shan. Her powers and feats are very impressive.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
For all that C'baoth was a nuisance, however, he probably can't take Shan.
Yes, he cannot.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
This doesn't count any jedi she's sparred against for practice and training, notably her husband. Sparring against one that can take out Team 1 by himself is sure to be good for her. At the very least, it means Team 1 can throw nothing at her she hasn't seen before. She's going to have tactics prepared for what happens when she's outgunned as a force user, as a duelist, or both. She uses many of these against Caedus, and it works well enough he's forced to rely on a dirty trick to get her.
Luke is irrelevant. He eclipses Mara in power and skill. And it is unlikely that even he can solo Team 1 in every setting and situation.

Also, sparring sessions aren't a good measure of competence and power of a character, they are conducted for training purposes. The game really changes when intentions are lethal.

Mara lured Caedus in to a cave where she took advantage of Caedus's arrogance and her knowledge of the setting. Caedus ended up badly injured even before he had the chance to fight her.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
None of her her opponents in this match have a poison dart gauntlet to kill her off with.
Satele's powers will be more then enough.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Speaking of which, let's not underestimate Mrs. Fel and her Boba Fett training. Boba's one of the best jedi killers ever for a guy with no force powers. And he taught Jaina pretty much everything he knew, on the theory that no matter who won between herself and Caedus, Han Solo was going to hurt. He was right, naturally.
Caedus was not interested in killing his sister actually, her superiority over opponents in this contest is not affirmed.

Also, versus scenarios aren't typically circumstances driven and/or story-oriented. They represent highly risky confrontations unless defined otherwise. In raw versus scenarios, certain competencies and strong points of characters become a non-factor.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Leia's battle meditation is an adequate counter for Team 1's use of the same.
Bastilla have superior BM capability.

carthage
Neph doesn't know what he's talking about as usual, Shan has never beaten anyone of note. Lumiya has contended with Luke 4 times and in their final duel the text says they outright fought to a standstill. Shan doesn't even come close to that level of skill.

Angelalex242
Also, sparring matters more then you think. Luke outclasses everyone so badly that he can put just enough effort into a fight to help his students grow and become better.

Even in RL sports it's a byword. Show me a championship team, and I'll show you a great coach.

This is one of the reasons why the NJO in general kicks lots of hindquarters.

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