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Sabers only.

Who wins?

Yoda.

Well, Luke did slice Sidious's hand off, and that was Sidious at his absolute best.

I'd say it's a draw, or Luke has a minor advantage.

Luke in a good fight.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yoda.

Yoda in a tough battle

Luke.

Yoda, wasn't Luke amped by Battle Meditation? + Yoda also successfully disarmed Sidious.

Wookiepedia said Leia does indeed have Battle Meditation, and was using it on that occasion.

well.........this is a 1v1 so Leia is not a factor here. But for FAHN BOIISM LUKE HEHAHAHAHA
Purge everything

Originally posted by Lord Stark
wasn't Luke amped by Battle Meditation?
No.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda, wasn't Luke amped by Battle Meditation? + Yoda also successfully disarmed Sidious.


DE Luke disarmed Sidious a lot more literally.


I'm calling split.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No.

Yoda. Luke was being aided by Leia. "Unlocking potential," Luke didn't even know he had. Not really Battle Meditation, but definitely not Luke aone.

From Star Wars wikia:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_Solo


After the battle of Mon Calamari, Palpatine and a broken Luke arrived in his flagship, the Eclipse at Pinnacle Base, where the New Republic was celebrating. While Leia was studying the Holocron in her quarters, the simulacrum of Bodo Baas told her a prophecy written by his Master, which foretold the upcoming events. Palpatine demanded the presence of Leia and the return of the Holocron. Leia met with the Sith onboard the Eclipse. Luke then implored for Leia's help in shaking off the Dark Side. Leia aided him and Luke managed to return to the light. Palpatine was enraged and engaged Luke in a brutal lightsaber duel. As Leia observed their duel, she gave energy to Luke through the use of battle meditation and together they were able to subdue Palpatine. When Palpatine summoned a Force storm against the New Republic fleet in retaliation, Luke and Leia summoned a wave of light side energy and enveloped Palpatine in it, cutting off his control of the storm. While the storm destroyed Eclipse and Palpatine, they fled.
BodoBaasHolocron EGTF

Leia probes the holocron of Bodo Baas.

After the death of Palpatine's clone on Byss, Leia returned to Nar Shaddaa to remove Vima and extract from her knowledge of the holocrons and the destroyed Jedi Order.

In 10 ABY, Leia helped her brother defeat Palpatine through the use of her natural talent with battle meditation; at this time Leia had little Force training and her ability to use such a powerful Force power is indicative of her strength in the Force.

Still untrained, Leia was able to shield her infant son Anakin, from Palpatine's disembodied spirit, preventing the Sith Lord from possessing the child.

I don't think Wookieepedia is such a reliable source.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yoda. Luke was being aided by Leia. "Unlocking potential," Luke didn't even know he had. Not really Battle Meditation, but definitely not Luke aone.


Don't have my copy of DE on me, but pretty sure that's when they were overpowering Palpatine's Force Storm. She certainly aided at that point. But I also don't believe she contributed to the Lightsaber duel.

Her aid at that point was in helping Luke to sway away from the Dark Side and stay on the Light Side IMO.




Originally posted by Nalaniel
I don't think Wookieepedia is such a reliable source.


Correct.

You have little reason to say so, when Wookieepedia is quite diligent about citing its sources...hence, all the little numbers you see whenever it makes a statement.

Wookiepedia generally treats itself like a term paper written for a teacher who is very strict about citing sources.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
You have little reason to say so, when Wookieepedia is quite diligent about citing its sources...hence, all the little numbers you see whenever it makes a statement.

Wookiepedia generally treats itself like a term paper written for a teacher who is very strict about citing sources.


Wookipedia citing sources is no different to when one of us cites a source.

Either way you still need to refer to the source itself as evidence, and not wookie.

Ah, but it is different. Because citing Wookie lets me be considerably lazier then looking up each individual book Wookie itself cites.

And anything that lets me fall to the lazy side is fine by me.

I'm surprised to see that there is no consensus here though I myself am having trouble choosing a side.

That's because we're trying to figure out how much better DE Sidious is then ROTS Sidious at saber use. DE Sidious is certainly superior, but we're not sure how much his saber skill improved. We're also not sure how much good Leia did him.

Is he though? What makes you so sure about his saber skills improvement after ROTS? He was already incredibly capable with the lightsaber in ROTS.

His ability with the force improved so drastically that it's hard argument to make his force augmentation didn't improve with it.

So it's Yoda vs. ROTS Sidious, result, draw (favoring Sidious), vs. DE Luke vs. DE Sidious, result, win, but with Battle Meditation help from his sister (and possibly her unborn son, no consensus on how much good unborn Anakin Solo is doing mommy.)

Originally posted by Angelalex242
His ability with the force improved so drastically that it's hard argument to make his force augmentation didn't improve with it.

So it's Yoda vs. ROTS Sidious, result, draw (favoring Sidious), vs. DE Luke vs. DE Sidious, result, win, but with Battle Meditation help from his sister (and possibly her unborn son, no consensus on how much good unborn Anakin Solo is doing mommy.)
How do you know his ability improved? He demonstrated couple of new Force powers but that doesn't prove that his ability improved by any margin.

Well, the most notable power Sidious gained is Force Storm. Now, imagine that kind of power shoved into physical augmentation, and you see why I think he has indeed improved.

Command of the Force and raw power always influence effectiveness in martial aspects of combat, specially when a Jedi have learned to use his talents to enhance his effectiveness in martial aspects of combat.

If Sidious became more powerful in the aftermath of his recovery effort, he is likely to be more effective in martial aspects of combat as well.

However, Sidious may have neglected his martial skills for a long period of time or became more arrogant due to increase in his power and paid the price for such arrogance.

State of mind can also sometimes make significant difference.

To be honest, I am not surprised that Sidious ended up loosing in a martial bout. He lost to Windu too.

And didn't Yoda disarm him as well?

"I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of Dark Side power

...

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the Dark Side energies that swirl invisibly around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."

Seems to me like increased force power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

To be honest, I am not surprised that Sidious ended up loosing in a martial bout. He lost to Windu too.

And didn't Yoda disarm him as well?

He lost to Windu because Vaapad allowed him to stalemate Sidious' speed until Anakin arrived and became the Shatterpoint.

Didn't Vitiate hug HoT's lightsaber? And get disarmed by a Meetra saber throw?

Yeah, let's not compare martial skills lol.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't have my copy of DE on me, but pretty sure that's when they were overpowering Palpatine's Force Storm. She certainly aided at that point. But I also don't believe she contributed to the Lightsaber duel.

Her aid at that point was in helping Luke to sway away from the Dark Side and stay on the Light Side IMO.



The audio novel makes it clear that Leia did not add her power to his until after the duel.

Luke takes this.

Well...it's that vs. Wookiepedia, which says Leia was indeed using battle meditation.

But if Leia was doing nothing, then Win vs. Sidious beats Draw vs. Sidious.

Wookieepedia, versus videos on youtube, and fan made tier lists are not legitimate sources.

I told you before, Wookieepedia has footnotes, and I can't be bothered to look them up for you. You have no basis of denying Wookieepedia unless you can deny the footnotes it's based on.

The audiodrama wasn't made by the author of DE either, though, and at multiple points contradicts the comic ; I'm not positive they're canon either.

That being said, Battle Meditation or no, the text in the comic makes it clear that the presence of Leia and Anakin changed the tide of the battle. Maybe it was something as simplistic as him being able to draw on the Force Bonds between them, but when he fought Sidious alone he lost.

Made by the same author or not the audio drama is canon. So it's a moot point.

And what text makes it clear that Leia was helping?

Originally posted by Angelalex242
I told you before, Wookieepedia has footnotes, and I can't be bothered to look them up for you. You have no basis of denying Wookieepedia unless you can deny the footnotes it's based on.

Wookieepedia isn't a source, I'm sorry.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
I told you before, Wookieepedia has footnotes, and I can't be bothered to look them up for you. You have no basis of denying Wookieepedia unless you can deny the footnotes it's based on.
It's still not a source in and of itself. Though it's easily more reliable than versus videos or a fan made tier system.

Originally posted by Trocity
He lost to Windu because Vaapad allowed him to stalemate Sidious' speed until Anakin arrived and became the Shatterpoint.

Didn't Vitiate hug HoT's lightsaber? And get disarmed by a Meetra saber throw?

Yeah, let's not compare martial skills lol.
I know why he lost to Windu. Vaapad isn't a superpower or an entity, its a talent that Windu developed to address his shortcomings in martial aspects of combat. Windu used this talent to his advantage to tackle Sidious and he succeeded.

Do keep in mind that Vaapad doesn't makes the combatant unstoppable. Count Dooku managed to fight Windu effectively as well but he let the droids overwhelm Windu and escaped. In-fact, even Talzin managed to duel Windu for a while and she isn't noted for martial prowess.

Point is that Sidious have limits too.

I am not sure why you mentioned Vitiate in this case. Vitiate is an Inquisitor (Sorcerer), not a Sith Warrior. For him, martial aspects of combat weren't important.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
I told you before, Wookieepedia has footnotes, and I can't be bothered to look them up for you. You have no basis of denying Wookieepedia unless you can deny the footnotes it's based on.


Dude the Audio Drama IS a Source.

Wookie IS NOT a Source. There may be a canon source in the foot notes, but even then Wookie claiming something comes from a source does not make it true. You have to quote the source itself for proof.

A lot of Wookie is taking someone's understanding of a certain source, like- Dooku is weak to kinetic energy- Footnote source: ROTS Novel. Problem- The ROTS Novel doesn't quite say that.


Originally posted by NewGuy01


That being said, Battle Meditation or no, the text in the comic makes it clear that the presence of Leia and Anakin changed the tide of the battle.


Again, that's when they were reversing the effects of the Force Storm. There's no proof Leia was adding her power to Luke's during the Saber fight.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
but when he fought Sidious alone he lost.


Which would be pretty good proof, if he didn't do that on his own personal Dark Side Nexus. Whilst once Luke had escaped the clutches of the Dark Side, got rid of his conflict with his Sister's aid, and fought Palpatine in a neutral setting, then he beat Palpatine in a straight up duel.

You answered your own question. He fought Palpatine on a Dark Side Nexus. Before he "had escaped the clutches of the Dark Side". The entire point of the battle was that Luke tried to fight darkness with darkness and failed.

Yeah... That's the point. You can't use the darkness to defeat the darkness but you can use the light.

Anyway, the canon audio drama makes it clear that Leia wasn't helping Luke in the duel while I've seen nothing to suggests he was. So yeah, until we see evidence to contrary, Luke bested Palpatine on his own in the saber duel.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
I told you before, Wookieepedia has footnotes, and I can't be bothered to look them up for you. You have no basis of denying Wookieepedia unless you can deny the footnotes it's based on.
I have basis of denying it based on the fact that I have read DE comics, listened to DE audio novels and read them too, and checked all other official sources depicting the fight. Luke had no help from Leia, she does not posses battle meditation ability and has never used it.

There is a big difference between confident Jedi fully embrasing the lightside and a doubtful desperate Jedi broken by darkness. For the same reason in TFU game dark Marek is no threat for Palpatine, while lightside one gave hell of a fight.

Actually the Wookiepiedia is a source...its referenced by the official website last I checked

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Actually the Wookiepiedia is a source...its referenced by the official website last I checked
I ones made a modification in wookiepedia...

If and when the time comes that someone claims Sidious > Mortis Anchorites or some such, this might be relevant. Til then, it's a hell of a non sequitur and applies very much more to Vitiate.

Not really. If anything, Vitiate is one of the characters who has no limits. He is only growing stronger, and the Wrarth's vision shows him consuming the galaxy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really. If anything, Vitiate is one of the characters who has no limits. He is only growing stronger, and the Wrarth's vision shows him consuming the galaxy.

Indeed? No limits? Remind me how and why he began the recent expansion on Yavin 4.

To return back into his physical body to consume the galaxy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To return back into his physical body to consume the galaxy.

After an ignominious assbeating from the Hero of Tython demanded convalescence.

Because nothing says "no limits" like an ancient history of prepwork, eating other Sith Lords to beef up, and an epic beatdown on your home turf by a guy and his glorified Roomba.

Every character has limits, peaches. Vitiate's just more of the same.

He did have limits, but not anymore. The entire plot of SoR is that a Yoda tier Force-wielder is not even remotely strong enough to defeat Vitiate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He did have limits, but not anymore. The entire plot of SoR is that a Yoda tier Force-wielder is not even remotely strong enough to defeat Vitiate.

No shit?? The expansion ended with Vitiate nom-nomming the galaxyuniverse??

mmm

No lol, because he was only able to come back in his physical presence for like 5 seconds, but in that time he managed to somehow kill a large amount of Marr's forces.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No lol, because he was only able to come back in his physical presence for like 5 seconds, but in that time he managed to somehow kill a large amount of Marr's forces.

Congratulations, you've just discovered an elusive limit.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/7a5b07b04c09a1b5d1ec229039cc678b/tumblr_inline_nhnz1mfdOR1sluwgl.gif

Im not classifying that as a limitation compared to mortals like Palpatine, who died by falling down a pit. Try harder, old man.

Vitiate died by hugging a lightsaber.

We aren't discussing weakened, pre-resurrection Vitiate though. If we were, I would agree he definitely has limits compared to other mortals.

@The_Tempest

Darth Sidious is much more likely to be hyped as an untouchable along with Luke Skywalker in comparison to any other character, I have noticed this trend since I have joined this form. Few have considered the possibility that these two have competition from ancient era and can be defeated.

As for Emperor Vitiate:

He performed badly against Hero of Tython because he was vulnerable after the disruption of his super-ritual. It really took a toll on him for a while and he still managed to put up a reasonable fight, even destroyed a portion of Dark Temple in an effort to kill the opponents.

Anyways, member DarthAnt66 is correct that Emperor Vitiate continues to grow in power seemingly endlessly in part due to his Force Drain related actions and also due to his condition. He is virtually unstoppable in power progression aspect and would eventually reach a point that he would consume the entire galaxy if his essence is not undone. Though how his essence will be undone remains to be seen.

So far, The Ones are the latest addition to no-limits-fallacy rule.

You here that old man? He even bolded my name but didn't bold yours! Take that.
EDIT: nvm he bolded yours too now. He bolded mine first though, proving my superiority.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Im not classifying that as a limitation compared to mortals like Palpatine, who died by falling down a pit. Try harder, old man.

By that you mean you're forced to disregard the actual definition of the word in order to facilitate your wank. Yes, we know.

The fact that you're bringing up Palpatine {whom I acknowledged twice in this very conversation as having limits} also reveals I've struck a nerve with you.

http://bigamericannews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/content_obama_smug.jpg

This is yet another example of why you should just stop posting and hire Skillz to take up your cause.

We were discussing limitations in comparison to mortals, not other immortals. There's a difference.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@The_Tempest

Darth Sidious is much more likely to be hyped as an untouchable along with Luke Skywalker in comparison to any other character, I have noticed this trend since I have joined this form. Few have considered the possibility that these two have competition from ancient era and can be defeated.

Their greater popularity is irrelevant. You waste time with non sequiturs and the obvious {"Sidious has limits! Luke has limits!" As if anyone seriously suggests otherwise.}, which wouldn't be a problem if you didn't do the exact thing you criticize for certain SWTOR characters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As for Emperor Vitiate:

He performed badly against Hero of Tython because he was vulnerable after the disruption of his super-ritual. It really took a toll on him for a while and he still managed to put up a reasonable fight, even destroyed a portion of Dark Temple in an effort to kill the opponents.

Anyways, member DarthAnt66 is correct that Emperor Vitiate continuous to grow in power virtually endlessly in part due to his Force Drain related actions and also due to his condition. He is virtually unstoppable and would eventually reach a point that he would consume the entire galaxy if he is not stopped and his essence is not undone.

Though how his essence will be undone remains to be seen.

So far, The Ones are the latest addition to no-limits-fallacy rule.

I'm more than aware of the circumstances surrounding Vitiate's defeat. Doesn't change that he has limits.

Everybody have certain limits. Otherwise, their will be no drama, realism and story-telling.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
We were discussing limitations in comparison to mortals, not other immortals. There's a difference.

facepalm



You never said nor suggested anything of the sort. Fact is, you let your wank get the better of you and I effortlessly smacked you down in front of God and country to the point that you seriously tried to deny the actual definition of the word limit in a desperate attempt to Frankenstein your argument.

That's a level of pathetic rarely met in these parts, but you've always been an overachiever.

Jesus H. Christ, even LeGenD was quicker to concede that Vitiate has limits than you, Ant.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Everybody have certain limits.

And everybody other than Ant is well aware of this. So relax, man. All is well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Otherwise, their will be no drama, realism and story-telling.

You've got it. Proud of ya, big guy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm



You never said nor suggested anything of the sort. Fact is, you let your wank get the better of you and I effortlessly smacked you down in front of God and country to the point that you seriously tried to deny the actual definition of the word limit in a desperate attempt to Frankenstein your argument.

That's a level of pathetic rarely met in these parts, but you've always been an overachiever.

Jesus H. Christ, even LeGenD was quicker to concede that Vitiate has limits than you, Ant.
You're too easy sometimes, Temp. Now give me a cookie.
I thought my support in RvV was evidence enough of my motives here.

That's the best excuse you can do with nearly an hour?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CVabKPLltfE/UZaTEB8msdI/AAAAAAAABBo/QuDOy17Z1RI/s1600/red+herring.png

Not impressed.

Originally posted by Arhael
I ones made a modification in wookiepedia...

Its obviously superceded by canon sources. But it can be used as a resource.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's the best excuse you can do with nearly an hour?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CVabKPLltfE/UZaTEB8msdI/AAAAAAAABBo/QuDOy17Z1RI/s1600/red+herring.png

Not impressed.
45 minutes, aka English class where I can't use my iPad.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its obviously superceded by canon sources. But it can be used as a resource.
Yes and I use it myself. But if something is not correct or baseless, I point it out. Leia knowing BM is baseless and unsupported by the canon sources. Leia aiding Luke in saber fight is also baseless and unsupported by official sources.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its obviously superceded by canon sources. But it can be used as a resource.

Nah. It mainly discusses "Legends" which ain't official canon anymore. Which is why I'm pretty sure the Official Site has stopped referencing it.

Besides the official site hasn't recognised Legends material as canon for a long time(before the announcement), so providing a link to where you can read more about non-canon stuff is not declaring it an Official Source.

It is after all Wookie. The fact that Wookie cites sources is all the evidence we need that Wookie isn't a source in itself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It is after all Wookie. The fact that Wookie cites sources is all the evidence we need that Wookie isn't a source in itself.
You've never cited a single thing in your life if you think that's true. Everything has a source somewhere that ends in first hand experiences. Science textbooks have sources. Are they not sources now?

That's semantics really. Bottom line wookieepedia is not accurate.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You've never cited a single thing in your life if you think that's true. Everything has a source somewhere that ends in first hand experiences. Science textbooks have sources. Are they not sources now?


And what's that got to do with Wookie being a "Canon" Source or not.

Star Wars is not a science that's been developed over thousands of years. There are ACTUAL SW Canon sources.

Wookie cites actual "Canon" sources like the ROTS Novel. The ROTS Novel is a Canon source and doesn't need to cite any other sources.

Lucas' s statements are also a direct Canon source. That's why Lucas doesn't need to cite evidence.

SW Wookie however is not a Canon source. And all the supposed "evidences" it does cite are very subjective. Which isn't surprising considering ANYONE can add/edit on it.


Wookie is a useful tool to learn about something you don't have a clue about. That's true for SW or anything else. But Wookie itself isn't a Scientist or a Stat Wars Scholar.