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1. Freeza from Namek saga, vs Tien as of BoG.

2. Tien and Krillin get the Kaio Ken upgrade. How does it affect their relevance? (Krillin vs the Ginyu's, Tien vs Semi Perfect Cell, ect..)

3. Vegeta rips off the Shin Kikoho, from the Ginyu fights on up.

Kind of an all over the place thread, but I figure lets just get these out of the way in one go.

1.) Tien's only chance is if he can pull off a Shin Kikoho before Freeza pummels him into nothingness.

2.) A Kaio Ken x20 amp *might* put them around Freeza's level, *at most*. It certainly wouldn't make them relevent in comparison to the baddies we saw after the Freeza saga. Also, a Shin Kikoho is so powerful because it depletes the user's life force, not their raw ki. That said, a KK amp probably wouldn't make for a more powerful Kikoho given that it only amps ki.

3.) See above. The Shin Kikoho depletes life force, not raw ki. Hard to say how powerful that type of attack would be in Vegeta's hands.

Originally posted by Galan007
1.) Tien's only chance is if he can pull off a Shin Kikoho before Freeza pummels him into nothingness.

2.) A Kaio Ken x20 amp *might* put them around Freeza's level, *at most*. It certainly wouldn't make them relevent in comparison to the baddies we saw after the Freeza saga. Also, a Shin Kikoho is so powerful because it depletes the user's life force, not their raw ki. That said, a KK amp probably wouldn't make for a more powerful Kikoho given that it only amps ki.

3.) See above. The Shin Kikoho depletes life force, not raw ki. Hard to say how powerful that type of attack would be in Vegeta's hands. Aren't Ki/Chi and life force usually the same thing? (I know in Yu Yu. Hakusho, it wasn't, but usually often ki and life force are interchangeable terms, like with Iron Fist.)

If it's not, does. SSJ increase life force? Is it even possible to raise it?

In DBZ, life force and ki are 2 completely different types of energy. The Genki Dama, for example, also depletes life force as opposed to ki.

The only way life force could logically be boosted, is if the being in question were truly immortal. For instance, Garlic Jr. should logically have unlimited life force. /shrug

In that case, Goku at least could have benefited from the Kikoho.

Depending on how much he could collect, and how long he could store it (Held onto some for a bit in the Namek saga) that might have been even more useful then a giant life force bomb..

Originally posted by cdtm
In that case, Goku at least could have benefited from the Kikoho.

Depending on how much he could collect, and how long he could store it (Held onto some for a bit in the Namek saga) that might have been even more useful then a giant life force bomb.. Originally posted by cdtm
In that case, Goku at least could have benefited from the Kikoho.

Depending on how much he could collect, and how long he could store it (Held onto some for a bit in the Namek saga) that might have been even more useful then a giant life force bomb.. i think frieza will win here

1. Tien was able to stun Buutenks with his Kikoho in the Buu saga. Pretty sure any version after that would stomp FF Frieza like a child. Without Kikoho. Even without that, he stunned and actually subdued Semi-perfect Cell with his Kikoho. That's a strong technique, but not one enough to bridge a gap as large as the one between him and Cell unless he was at least around Frieza's level. That was in the Cell saga.

2. Same thing with Tien here. He stunned Buutenks with his Kikoho. Without Kaioken, that version of Tien would probably kill at least Perfect Cell with his Kikoho, and maybe even kill SP Cell with his Neo Kikoho. Galan was wrong about Kaioken though. It increases all of the users traits, including awareness, physical strength, speed, ki capacity, and likely life-force as well, "for one heart-beat". However, I think it would take at least Kaioken X20 for Tien to do anything to someone like Fat Buu, and even then wouldn't kill him, obviously. Krillin can still only manage to do as much as Cell saga Tien, probably less, since he stopped training.

3. Again, Galan is incorrect. The Kikoho increases in power in accordance to how strong the user is. This is why it actually did something to Buutenks, when it only subdued Semi-perfect Cell. Tien obviously got massively stronger, since humans can't increase their life-force in DBZ outside of using the Dragon Balls, or fountain of Youth like Master Roshi did. In all likely-hood, ki in DBZ is linked very closely to life-force. As in, it can be converted into life-energy, but not used as it, to say, extend one's life. This also brings up the question of how strong immortal beings could make a Kikoho, such as Roshi or Garlic Jr... Meh.

However, it depends on the versions of Vegeta. Anyone he fought evenly with would probably die from a kikoho from him. Not FF Frieza if we're talking Namek Vegeta, but if he went Great ape and used it, he might have a chance, at least if he used Neo Kikoho. I think Super Vegeta could probably kill Perfect Cell though, if he used Kikoho. SSJ2 Vegeta would do nothing more than stall, or maybe even injure someone like Buuhan with it though, sadly. BotG's SSJ2 Vegeta, who bloodied Bills, might actually be able to do serious damage with it, maybe even fatal damage to Bills.

Tien only used the Kikoho to deflect Buutenks' blast... It never physically struck(or "stunned" him.

In the future, I'd refrain from calling people "wrong", if you yourself don't have the facts straight.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tien's only chance is if he can pull off a Shin Kikoho before Freeza pummels him into nothingness.
While the Kikōhō knocked Cell back it didn't really hurt him.

Yeah, it didn't cause any damage to Cell at all--it just knocked him down for a little while. And prior to that, Tien had outright stated his power was nothing compared to #17 & #18.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tien only used the Kikoho to deflect Buutenks' blast... It never physically struck(or "stunned" him.

In the future, I'd refrain from calling people "wrong", if you yourself don't have the facts straight.

Stunned/Surprised = Synonyms.

Don't go around assuming things, when you yourself CLEARLY don't have the facts straight.

Btw, Tien used Kikoho to deflect a blast that Mystic Gohan was desperately worried about. Meaning it AT LEAST would have severely wounded him. Tien was probably weaker than SSJ1 Goku at that point.

Also, you WERE wrong about Kaioken and Kikoho. You thought Kaioken didn't increase life-force, and that it wouldn't make Kikoho stronger. I wasn't calling you out or anything, just correcting you. Don't get so mad bro.

http://troll.me/images/calm-down-bro/calm-down-bro.jpg

You are a complete idiot. No reason to even waste words on you.

Originally posted by Galan007


You are a complete idiot. No reason to even waste words on you.

Ha, write it off however you want, just so long as you understand I win. Whatever helps you sleep at night.