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Battle takes place on neutal ground

Lsu solidly.

Malgus solidly.

Lsu have martial expertise but she will be vulnerable to Malgus's powers. And this would be her undoing.

Lsu

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus solidly.

Lsu have martial expertise but she will be vulnerable to Malgus's powers. And this would be her undoing.

disgust

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus solidly.

Lsu have martial expertise but she will be vulnerable to Malgus's powers. And this would be her undoing.

Malgus' powers by 'hope' are little to be in awe of and barely notable, Jace Malcom tanked his lightning for a good five seconds. Lsu doesn't get killed by light telekinetic breezes contrary to popular misplaced belief. Her sabers and speed will be more than enough to counter balance lightning attacks.

Lsu severely outmatches Malgus in sabers and likely speed as well, combine that with her precog and Malgus is essentially out of his depth.

Emperor Malgus however could dominate this with Force Powers, but this isn't Emperor Malgus nor anywhere even close.

Malgus' feats from the Third Lesson takes place directly after Hope. AKA holding up and throwing 2 buildings, pwning that zabrak Jedi and burning through his chest.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus solidly.

Lsu have martial expertise but she will be vulnerable to Malgus's powers. And this would be her undoing.

Yes, immediately after Hope, where he has a colossal rage amplification.

This however isn't Malgus with such an enormous rage boost, but instead a Malgus in a comparatively generic mood. I mean if he could do all that is presented in Third Lesson as standard he wouldn't have been defeated in the first place, he'd be soloing Malcom, Shan and their troops with tree trunks


Maul with an immense rage amp nearly killed Sidious in a duel, as part of a test, does that mean Maul at any time can? Evidently not.

Hope Malgus as standard had lightning that Malcom could tank, not jaw dropping by any means.

Meh, Malgus' rage just made him reckless. It took him calming down and containing his anger for him to become effective. He didn't solo Shan and Malcolm because they're that good, not because he was weaker.

And Malcolms armor is lightning resistant. Theres no contradiction between Malgus' showings there and in the Third Lesson.

No, he was fuming with rage and wrecking shit with apparent ease the entire short story, far superior feats than those displayed in Hope.

Malgus was very clearly amplified by his rage after nearly dying and bulldozed the holy hell through that Zabrak with far greater speed than displayed in the trailer.

Hope Malgus does not have said rage and frankly Lsu's speed and precog combined with her skill will have her on-top of him right away. Doesn't hurt her that Malgus is exactly the type to charge into combat and that will seal his fate against such an excellent duelist.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, Malgus' rage just made him reckless. It took him calming down and containing his anger for him to become effective. He didn't solo Shan and Malcolm because they're that good, not because he was weaker.

And Malcolms armor is lightning resistant. Theres no contradiction between Malgus' showings there and in the Third Lesson.

Source/Quote please?...

Cause it would make me slightly feel better for that reason, then just because....even if Malcolm only survived long enough for interference rather then just straight up dying the first time when he was caught.

Its in the Swtor encyclopedia. In the Trooper section theres an example of Havoc Squads armor, that's Malcolm's armor from the trailer. A caption mentions it comes with an insulated body-glove that protects against extreme heat.

@ AP, disagree. Thats not how I saw the story play out at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its in the Swtor encyclopedia. In the Trooper section theres an example of Havoc Squads armor, that's Malcolm's armor from the trailer. A caption mentions it comes with an insulated body-glove that protects against extreme heat.

@ AP, disagree. Thats not how I saw the story play out at all.

....Eh....does Malgus have any Force Lighting feats up to that point?

Tbh I thought it was gonna be some kinda special thing, not just some body glove..

Originally posted by AncientPower
Malgus' powers by 'hope' are little to be in awe of and barely notable,


Don't get fooled by his representation in Hope cinematic. Malgus was (very) powerful at this point.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Jace Malcom tanked his lightning for a good five seconds.
It is obvious that his gear have something in it which provided good defense against various forms of external threats including electrocution.

Ever seen a normal person enduring Sith lightning otherwise?

Again, don't get fooled by Malgus's representation in Hope cinematic.

Malgus's command of Sith lightning is among the best in mythos.

This is Malgus's lightning as of Hope:

At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.

Shouting with pain, the Jedi leaned forward into the lightning - teeth bare, blue blades held before him - and staggered toward Malgus. Despite his burns, he came onward. One step, another, another, but he was failing, wilting in the heat of the lightning. Malgus channeled more power and the Jedi fell to his knees, screaming. The lightning spiraled around the Zabrak, blasting dark holes in his body. The lightsabers fell from his hands and he writhed in agony, screaming his pain into the sky.

Malgus ended his attack. The Jedi, ruined, fell to the ground and rolled over onto his back.

Taken from The Third Lesson

Do the math.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lsu doesn't get killed by light telekinetic breezes contrary to popular misplaced belief. Her sabers and speed will be more than enough to counter balance lightning attacks.
Light telekinetic breezes?

Malgus used telekinesis against Satele only once during his confrontation with her on Aldeeran; he send her packing into a tree easily, demonstrating great power with this single action which gets overlooked due to intensity of actions in the cinematic.

In addition, Satele is much more powerful then Lsu as of Hope. The former might be too tough to choke or crush but Lsu is really lacking in comparison.

Here is an example of what Malgus did to another Jedi on Aldeeran:

Malgus relented in his attack, backed off a few steps, and reached out through the Force. Immediately he felt the faint, intentionally suppressed signature of another light-side user to his right. The Jedi's ally was hidden in the rubble, moving closer.

Malgus loosed a furious series of overhand strikes that forced the Zabrak to retreat rapidly. Sidestepping a stab from the Jedi, Malgus rode his motion into a Force-augmented spinning side kick that hit the Jedi in the ribs and sent him cartwheeling into the wall of nearby building. At the same time, he reached out with the Force for the hidden light-side user, brushed aside the resistance he felt, and pulled the Jedi out of hiding.

A human male in his twenties rose up out of ruins, dangling like a fish on the hook of Malgus's power. His legs kicked futilely; the green blade of his lightsaber cut at empty air; he gagged as Malgus's power squeezed shut his throat.

"Vorin!" shouted the Zabrak.

"So much for your ambush," Malgus said, and closed his fist, crushing Vorin's windpipe. He let the body fall to the charred earth.

Taken from The Third Lesson

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lsu severely outmatches Malgus in sabers and likely speed as well, combine that with her precog and Malgus is essentially out of his depth.
You sure about this?

Malgus defeated Darach much earlier. Lsu is essentially out of her depth here.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Emperor Malgus however could dominate this with Force Powers, but this isn't Emperor Malgus nor anywhere even close.
Could dominate? You serious?

Lsu is fodder here.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
....Eh....does Malgus have any Force Lighting feats up to that point?

Tbh I thought it was gonna be some kinda special thing, not just some body glove..

Like I said above, an hour after the fight Malgus tears through the lightsaber defense of a very powerful Jedi (who had just dropped 2 buildings on Malgus) and burns holes in his body with lightning.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
....Eh....does Malgus have any Force Lighting feats up to that point?
Yes, he does. See my post above.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like I said above, an hour after the fight Malgus tears through the lightsaber defense of a very powerful Jedi (who had just dropped 2 buildings on Malgus) and burns holes in his body with lightning.

......

So body glove > defense of a Jedi Knight.

Got it....

LeGenD, Lsu faced Orbalisk Bane whom was amped by both a nexus and a rage amp whilst she had a minor BM amp. Lsu was faster, more skilled and reacted faster than the Sith'ari could.

Now of course comes the part where Lsu had 'help', Jothun is featless and required protection from Lsu which distracted from her effort. She even told Farfalla that he was simply getting in her way and Farfalla was an excellent duelist himself.

The two of them were the only direct aid in her effort to kill Bane but said aid was mediocre at best.

So essentially we saw that Raskta Lsu + BM Amp > Darth Bane + Orbalisk Armor + Rage Amp + Nexus Amp, she was soundly beating him and the only attacks he ever connected was a Force Push and an elbow.

If you are telling me Hope! Malgus was greatly superior to ROT! Bane then I don't even know what to say.

Lsu is far from fodder, I suggest re-reading Rule of Two.

Darach was excellent, but between both Lord Vindican and apprentice Malgus he simply got exhausted after impaling the former.

Besides the argument here is not if Malgus is greater in the Force but whether or not his Force prowess makes up for the vast desparity in dueling ability, it simply doesn't.

I am not going to take Malgus' post-Hope feats into account, especially when rage amps are involved.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
......

So body glove > defense of a Jedi Knight.

Got it....
No.

Malcom got overwhelmed as well? Didn't he?

Look, the armor of Havoc Squad is Sci-Fi stuff. So take it like that.

Here are some aspects of the armor in question:-

1. Durasteel chest armor with internal cortosis plating.

2. Bandolier with attached personal shield generator.

3. Insulted body glove resists extreme temperatures.

4. External pouches for additional energy cells.

5. Paneled foot armor offers protection without sacrificing mobility.

Some description:-

Republic-issue combat armor is produced in a wide variety of styles to suit various mission profiles. Hardened duraplast forms the main protective element of most armor, either integrated into lightweight vests or molded into overlapping plates and worn over an insulated body glove for maximum coverage. When even more protection is called for, the duraplast may be supplemented or even replaced with plating composed of durasteel, cortosis, or other exotic materials.

Standard armors are resistant to small-arms fire and shrapnel, while heavier varieties are reported to have even survived repeated strikes from lightsabers and vehicle-mounted canons. Republic army recruitment centers sometimes display exceptional chesplates that have withstood direct missile impacts, hoping to inspire confidence in potential recruits.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Also;

As the most elite soldiers in the Republic, the troopers of Havoc Squad are trained to take down any threat: including Sith.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

---

So we witnessed super-soldiers in Hope cinematic, folks.

Hope this resolves the confusion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

Malcom got overwhelmed as well? Didn't he?

Look, the armor of Havoc Squad is Sci-Fi stuff. So take it like that.

Here are some aspects of the armor in question:-

1. Durasteel chest armor with internal cortosis plating.

2. Bandolier with attached personal shield generator.

3. Insulted body glove resists extreme temperatures.

4. External pouches for additional energy cells.

5. Paneled foot armor offers protection without sacrificing mobility.

Some description:-

Republic-issue combat armor is produced in a wide variety of styles to suit various mission profiles. Hardened duraplast forms the main protective element of most armor, either integrated into lightweight vests or molded into overlapping plates and worn over an insulated body glove for maximum coverage. When even more protection is called for, the duraplast may be supplemented or even replaced with plating composed of durasteel, cortosis, or other exotic materials.

Standard armors are resistant to small-arms fire and shrapnel, while heavier varieties are reported to have even survived repeated strikes from lightsabers and vehicle-mounted canons. Republic army recruitment centers sometimes display exceptional chesplates that have withstood direct missile impacts, hoping to inspire confidence in potential recruits.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Also;

As the most elite soldiers in the Republic, the troopers of Havoc Squad are trained to take down any threat: including Sith.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

---

So we witnessed super-soldiers in Hope cinematic, folks.

Hope this resolves the confusion.

Ok see now that is more elaborate than a simple body glove.

Alright, fair enough.

But damnit Bioware..../sigh, they are kinda making everything pointless in later eras with all this stuff that they just keep making up.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ok see now that is more elaborate than a simple body glove.

Alright, fair enough.

But damnit Bioware..../sigh, they are kinda making everything pointless in later eras with all this stuff that they just keep makting up.

Bioware's incessant need to have the best of everything and make their own era appear as the apex of everything is beyond obvious and to be honest lacks originality.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LeGenD, Lsu faced Orbalisk Bane whom was amped by both a nexus and a rage amp whilst she had a minor BM amp. Lsu was faster, more skilled and reacted faster than the Sith'ari could.
This confrontation took place on Lehon so I don't get the nexus part.

That "minor" BM amp enabled the Jedi to fight the Sith Lords effectively, they dropped like flies after the amplification stopped.

Lsu wouldn't have gone toe-to-toe with Bane without amplification from BM of her ally. Her performance is artificial due to this factor. In addition, Bane fought recklessly under the comfort of the protection offered by orbalisks, if he had fought with precision, he would have done much better.

In contrast, Malgus is going to fight with precision and masterfully.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Now of course comes the part where Lsu had 'help', Jothun is featless and required protection from Lsu which distracted from her effort. She even told Farfalla that he was simply getting in her way and Farfalla was an excellent duelist himself.

The two of them were the only direct aid in her effort to kill Bane but said aid was mediocre at best.

So essentially we saw that Raskta Lsu + BM Amp > Darth Bane + Orbalisk Armor + Rage Amp + Nexus Amp, she was soundly beating him and the only attacks he ever connected was a Force Push and an elbow.
Covered above.

The Jedi performed well with amplification of BM. They ended up dead after that support was disrupted. Simple.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If you are telling me Hope! Malgus was greatly superior to ROT! Bane then I don't even know what to say.

Lsu is far from fodder, I suggest re-reading Rule of Two.
Lsu isn't fodder. But she holds no candle to mightiest of the Sith under fair circumstances.

Malgus, as of Return, was already among the greatest warriors of the Empire. As of Hope, he tolerated cliff-shattering raw burst of power from Satele Shan and resultant injuries and destroyed a Vader-esque opponent soon afterwards. As of Deceived, he cut a swath through Jedi formations inside the Jedi Temple and humiliated powerful opponents in battles. As of Cold War, he became Emperor for a while.

Malgus is a TIER 9 within 1 - 10 TIER levels.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darach was excellent, but between both Lord Vindican and apprentice Malgus he simply got exhausted after impaling the former.
That might be a factor, but:

Even before the Great War, Malgus was widely regarded as one of the greatest warriors in the Empire.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

So both factors.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Besides the argument here is not if Malgus is greater in the Force but whether or not his Force prowess makes up for the vast desparity in dueling ability, it simply doesn't.
Incorrect.

Lsu have poor defensive abilities. Malgus may just snap her neck.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I am not going to take Malgus' post-Hope feats into account, especially when rage amps are involved.
This is a cop out.

Post-Hope? They are not. This events of The Third Lesson occurred an hour or two after the events of Hope cinematic on Aldeeran.

More importantly, Malgus was actually disadvantaged and mortally wounded during the events of The Third Lesson.

As for rage:

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.

He closed the distance between them rapidly. The red line of Malgus's lightsaber moved so quickly it blurred into a red smear. The Jedi parried again and again, the sizzle of blade on blade resounding through the ruins. Malgus's onslaught - a blizzard of slashes, cuts, and stabs - allowed the Jedi no room for a counterattack. The Jedi retreated before the offensive, desperately intercepting Malgus's blows.

Malgus could have ended the Jedi in any of several ways, but he needed the satisfaction of a lightsaber kill.

Taken from The Third Lesson

So where is the rage?

Also, rage isn't a technique. It is an emotion and Sith frequently use emotions to fuel their power. Treating Malgus's rage as a special development is silly.

The battle did not take place on Lehon but Tython, in Belia Darzu's fortress, a nexus.

No the Jedi died because of BM withdrawal (nausea) and Zannah's mental attack on Sarro Xaj. This resulted in his death followed quickly by Zannah killing Lsu from behind, employing a Spell of Concealment to cover her presence.

Battle Meditation from Worror was diminished because the nexus itself was of the Dark Side, I shouldn't need to tell you what that does to a light sider. You should however take into account that both Zannah and Bane were nexus amplified, Bane himself had Orbalisk protection and rage to add to that.

Malgus as of Hope is not among the mightiest of Sith, one of the mightiest among his Empire sure but not overall.

Emperor Malgus is a mid tier 8 at best, he is not superior to Revan whom is top tier 8.

Darach was probably the best lightsaber duelist of his day as a Battlemaster, poor energy reserves on his part sealed his fate, he may well have defeated both of them given more reserves.

No Lsu caught off guard by an amplified Bane might (and I emphasize might) have been killed by a telekinetic push on his part due to the environment.

Her Force defenses are average but claming Sith can just snap her neck is contradictory to the fact that Lsu has killed 100,000(?) Sith in the field and if it was as easy as you imply she never would have gotten that far. Amped Bane himself clearly couldn't and Hope Malgus doesn't hold a candle to him.

Post means afterward and this is afterward.

The rage is obvious and blatantly apparent, the rage allowed him to stop himself from being crushed by two buildings and then he channeled it with his will, blitzing the Jedi with speed feats he has never displayed before that engagement.

Rage is not a technique, it is an involuntary state of mind he was thrown into upon nearly dying. The statement prior to that where he is on a shuttle makes it excessively clear how angry he was.

He was amplified by his anger and this enabled above standard feats for him. Again if he was that powerful as standard then he would have telekinetically decimated his opponents with tree trunks and boulders, yet he didn't.

Why do people keep calling bane the Sith'ari?

Yeah, I thought we had agreed on Fodd'ari.

Because TCSWE confirms he is the Sith'ari, lmfao.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The battle did not take place on Lehon but Tython, in Belia Darzu's fortress, a nexus.
Sorry, I meant Tython.

The word nexus is thrown around cheaply. That fortress is not a nexus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No the Jedi died because of BM withdrawal (nausea) and Zannah's mental attack on Sarro Xaj. This resulted in his death followed quickly by Zannah killing Lsu from behind, employing a Spell of Concealment to cover her presence.
The BM significantly enhanced the effectiveness of Jedi.

For example:

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel.

Another:

Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

More importantly:

Battle meditation required Master Worror's complete focus; there was no chance for him to mount any type of defense. If Bane cut him down, the others would lose the only advantage that gave them any chance of surviving the encounter.

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

The Sith focused on disrupting the BM effect because it was the main advantage the Jedi had. Once BM was no more in the picture, the Jedi became vulnerable and fell easily.

When Bane got the opportunity to attack and kill Worror, another Jedi saved Worror but disrupted the BM in the process. After this development, things went south for the Jedi.

As for Zannah, she got the opportunity to unleash sorcery against the Jedi she was fighting after the cessation of BM; the Jedi lost his effectiveness and became reluctant, providing an opening to Zannah to exploit.

Clear?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Battle Meditation from Worror was diminished because the nexus itself was of the Dark Side, I shouldn't need to tell you what that does to a light sider. You should however take into account that both Zannah and Bane were nexus amplified, Bane himself had Orbalisk protection and rage to add to that.
See above. You are wrong.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Malgus as of Hope is not among the mightiest of Sith, one of the mightiest among his Empire sure but not overall.
Being among the best in the Empire implies being among the best in history as well because this Empire tested Sith in ways unlike any other, only the best would rise to fame and thrive. The Sith had come a long way since ancient times and reached their peak in competence and progress in history. After this Empire, the next span of competence would emerge in Rule of Two lineage.

Do not forget that Malgus had proved his mettle by defeating Darach prior to events of Hope.

Lsu is outgunned in this contest, badly.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Emperor Malgus is a mid tier 8 at best, he is not superior to Revan whom is top tier 8.
Both have TIER 9 caliber accomplishments.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darach was probably the best lightsaber duelist of his day as a Battlemaster, poor energy reserves on his part sealed his fate, he may well have defeated both of them given more reserves.
Maybe.

But Malgus wasn't lacking in power and competence either. His victory isn't a matter of luck.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No Lsu caught off guard by an amplified Bane might (and I emphasize might) have been killed by a telekinetic push on his part due to the environment.
Lsu was also amped, significantly. Do not forget.

She is really lacking in the aspect of command of the Force. She is likely to be overwhelmed by Malgus's powers. The latter may just snap her neck.

Lsu's performance against Bane is absolutely artificial. She wouldn't do so well under fair circumstances.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Her Force defenses are average but claming Sith can just snap her neck is contradictory to the fact that Lsu has killed 100,000(?) Sith in the field and if it was as easy as you imply she never would have gotten that far. Amped Bane himself clearly couldn't and Hope Malgus doesn't hold a candle to him.
1. Nobody have that much kill count against Sith.
2. The Sith she faced are of unknown competence and capability. Brotherhood Sith really sucked to be honest.

You just don't realize the power of Malgus properly.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Post means afterward and this is afterward.
This is straw man.

Do you think that Malgus became stronger in an hour or 2 after his confrontation with Satele Shan and Jace Malcom? Where is your common sense?

Originally posted by AncientPower
The rage is obvious and blatantly apparent, the rage allowed him to stop himself from being crushed by two buildings and then he channeled it with his will, blitzing the Jedi with speed feats he has never displayed before that engagement.
Sith are trained to use their emotions (e.g. anger) to fuel their power. I thought that this was common knowledge.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Rage is not a technique, it is an involuntary state of mind he was thrown into upon nearly dying. The statement prior to that where he is on a shuttle makes it excessively clear how angry he was.
See above.

Of-course, Malgus would be angry after the bad experience. However, he was also mortally wounded and not in good shape. He suppressed the pain with his anger and took a great risk by fighting Jedi again.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He was amplified by his anger and this enabled above standard feats for him. Again if he was that powerful as standard then he would have telekinetically decimated his opponents with tree trunks and boulders, yet he didn't.
Malgus overwhelmed Jace Malcom when the two fought but left the latter to be executed by others. However, Satele Shan prevented Malcom's execution and proceeded to fight Malgus.

But Malgus disarmed Shan too and forced her on her knees. However, it was at this moment when Malcom came back and turned the tide of the battle.

You can say that Malgus made a mistake of not killing Malcom himself and paid the price for this error. However, his power and competence was not an issue.

I don't understand what you see in Hope cinematic. I see an error on part of Malgus.

Shan describes Hope Malgus as the greatest Dark Side force she ever faced... he is above Lsu.

Tbh, the issue I have is that...they were going for such a dramatic execution for Jace and it's like....wtf? The sith had no problems just cutting down the other troops like nothing, but Jace? No they had to slowly drag him across the field to a guy who slowly ignited his saber...I actually find that scene kinda laughable, because it was taking place in the middle of a battle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right. Lets rely upon BM enhanced performance of Lsu to vouch for her.
That quote calling her the greatest martial artist in the order does not refer to her battle meditation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You see! Martial skills are not everything. For a Jedi, command of the Force is everything.

Lsu really lacked in command of the Force aspect.
It's not that she lacked command of the force, it's that she geared it entirely towards her abilities in physical combat rather than force combat.

PIS

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh, the issue I have is that...they were going for such a dramatic execution for Jace and it's like....wtf? The sith had no problems just cutting down the other troops like nothing, but Jace? No they had to slowly drag him across the field to a guy who slowly ignited his saber...I actually find that scene kinda laughable, because it was taking place in the middle of a battle.
PIS, my friend.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
That quote calling her the greatest martial artist in the order does not refer to her battle meditation.
I know.

I am referring to her performance against Bane, it is BM fueled and not representative of her original performance.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
It's not that she lacked command of the force, it's that she geared it entirely towards her abilities in physical combat rather than force combat.
She did lack in the command of the Force, she is not powerful in the ways of the Force.

If you are trying to refer to her capabilities in force combat, ie. telekinesis, then that's one thing. But if you are trying to say her capabilities in dueling are somehow diminished by this "lack of command of the force" then you are sorely mistaken.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
PIS, my friend.

I know lol.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
If you are trying to refer to her capabilities in force combat, ie. telekinesis, then that's one thing. But if you are trying to say her capabilities in dueling are somehow diminished by this "lack of command of the force" then you are sorely mistaken.
Command of the Force and raw power influence both dueling prowess and ability to manipulate the environment.

Apart from the technical skill; speed, reflexes, emotions, and precognition are important determinants. Their might be additional variables. Command of the Force and raw power influence all of these variables.

Its not that Malgus would be great at telekinesis but lacking in speed. He will be great in both because of his command of the Force and raw power.

People should understand the implications of command of the Force and raw power. Otherwise, we get statements like Kolar > Darach and Lsu > Malgus.

Except Raskta Lsu doesn't lack command of the force when it comes to speed, reflexes, and precognition. She spent her whole life studying how she could use the force to hone her skills.
"She spent her life studying ways in which The Force could be used to hone her skills."-CSWE

She simply isn't very good in force combat because she lacks skill in using the force in that way.
"A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks."-ROT

It's a matter of specialization.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Except Raskta Lsu doesn't lack command of the force when it comes to speed, reflexes, and precognition. She spent her whole life studying how she could use the force to hone her skills.

She simply isn't very good in force combat because she lacks skill in using the force in that way.
You are still not getting it.

She has raw power and command of the Force. So does Malgus. Difference is that Malgus is relatively stronger and more capable Force-user.

DMB is right about raskta's command of the force and how she applies it, but Malgus should ultimately win this fight. While Malgus isn't as intimitely skilled as Raskta with the blade, I believe his raw power should be able to secure him the fight. Return!Malgus was not as purely skilled as Darach, but his pure rage and power ended up dominating him in the end. Matching up Raskta against a more skilled and powerful incarnation of Malgus won't bode well for her. And whilst Orbalisk Bane is a far more dominating combatant than Hope!Malgus, not only did Raskta have battle meditation (which would greatly bolster her efforts and diminish Bane's,) but she had the aid of her companions such as Farfalla to bail her out when Bane exercised his force abilities.

@LeGenD
You're trying to claim Raskta has a weakness in the force which diminishes her abilities as a martial artist, when that is clearly not the case.

And I added quotes.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You're trying to claim Raskta has a weakness in the force which diminishes her abilities as a martial artist, when that is clearly not the case.
She can be only as capable as her command of the Force and raw power is. She cannot outduel a stronger opponent who also happens to be extremely good in martial aspects of combat. Simple.

I have checked the quotes. Difference is that I understand the implications of command of the Force and raw power more deeply then you.

Well then prove she is some how lacking in her command of the force as it relates to martial combat.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DMB is right about raskta's command of the force and how she applies it, but Malgus should ultimately win this fight. While Malgus isn't as intimitely skilled as Raskta with the blade, I believe his raw power should be able to secure him the fight. Return!Malgus was not as purely skilled as Darach, but his pure rage and power ended up dominating him in the end. Matching up Raskta against a more skilled and powerful incarnation of Malgus won't bode well for her. And whilst Orbalisk Bane is a far more dominating combatant than Hope!Malgus, not only did Raskta have battle meditation (which would greatly bolster her efforts and diminish Bane's,) but she had the aid of her companions such as Farfalla to bail her out when Bane exercised his force abilities.
And what do you think Malgus does? He also knows how to utilize his command of the Force for martial aspects of combat.

And I wouldn't say (obalisk) Bane is "far more" dominant then Malgus. The former may not be even as capable as the latter at this point. The reason why (obalisk) Bane looks so impressive is because he could afford to be reckless and tank lightsaber strikes, he had been struck several times but he wasn't harmed.

In a normal situation, Bane would have had to be lot more careful and his chances wouldn't have been too bright against the Strike Team.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well then prove she is some how lacking in her command of the force as it relates to martial combat.
You need prove after this?

A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need prove after this?

A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks.
Yes, that is a matter of specialization. Her skillset with the force was entirely geared towards bolstering her prowess in martial combat, not dishing out and defending against force attacks. Her not being skilled at defending against force attacks does not diminish her force abilities as they relate to her martial prowess.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes, that is a matter of specialization. Her skillset with the force was entirely geared towards bolstering her prowess in martial combat, not dishing out and defending against force attacks. Her not being skilled at defending against force attacks does not diminish her force abilities as they relate to her martial prowess.
Again, command of the Force and raw power always determine effectiveness of a Jedi in combat situations.

Specialization doesn't prevents effectiveness in using the Force to influence the environment.

Malgus, as per specialization, is actually a Sith Warrior.

You understand Sith Warrior curriculum? Its the same that Lsu had focused upon as a Jedi Guardian.

Difference is that Malgus outshines Lsu in both command of the Force and raw power aspects, therefore he is relatively much more effective in all aspects of combat accordingly.

As an analogy, Lsu might be the most skilled duelist in Star Wars but she isn't beating Sidious. Now replace Sidious with Malgus and Lsu finds herself outmatched again. Her martial skill is not the problem, her shortcomings in command of the Force and raw power aspects certainly are. No rocket science.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Again, command of the Force and raw power always determine effectiveness of a Jedi in combat situations.

Specialization doesn't prevents effectiveness in using the Force to influence the environment.
Except that is clearly the case with Lsu. The text specifically states that she wasn't "skilled" in defending against force attacks. That is clearly a matter of specialization.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus, as per specialization, is actually a Sith Warrior.

You understand Sith Warrior curriculum? Its the same that Lsu had focused upon as a Jedi Guardian.
Give me a statement saying that Warrior's lack force combat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As an analogy, Lsu might be the most skilled duelist in Star Wars but she isn't beating Sidious. Now replace Sidious with Malgus and Lsu finds herself outmatched again. No rocket science.
LOL @ Comparing Hope Malgus to Darth Sidious.

Darth Sidious have more skill than any incarnation of Malgus, and he also have more power.

Wouldn't be surprised if LeGenD had Return Malgus > Sidious, tbh.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Except that is clearly the case with Lsu. The text specifically states that she wasn't "skilled" in defending against force attacks. That is clearly a matter of specialization.
You don't understand the mechanics of the Force mastery and raw power, and that book have been written by a mediocre author whose statements are often poorly written. Funny thing is that even that author understands the mechanics of the Force mastery well (if his clumsy writing is overlooked) unlike you.

Explain to me why Jedi are formidable warriors. Because of their martial skills or because of their ability to use the Force to their advantage?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Give me a statement saying that Warrior's lack force combat.
Give me a statement saying a Jedi Guardian lacks force combat.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
LOL @ Comparing Hope Malgus to Darth Sidious.
It seems like I am arguing with a kid.

The intended message of the analogy flew over your head.

My point is that even if Lsu is more skilled then Sidious in lightsaber combat, she isn't beating him. Similarly, even if she is more skilled then Malgus in lightsaber combat, she isn't beating him. And I have pointed out the reason.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Darth Sidious have more skill than any incarnation of Malgus, and he also have more power.
Irrelevant.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Wouldn't be surprised if LeGenD had Return Malgus > Sidious, tbh.
Don't be ridiculous.

Care to point to a specific example of her doing so without battle mediation?

DMB routinely insults others when he is losing arguments, that's just how he conducts himself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Straw man.

I am trying to make you understand the mechanics and implications of command of the Force and raw power for a Jedi.

You mean like when you tried to make people understand the mechanics and implications of why Vitiate>The Ones?




Lsu isn't a battlemaster though. She's a "Weapon's master". clear difference broski. Look it up



And? Malgus' MO is not to use force powers first.





The same could be said for Jedi Weapon's masters dude.



So you can throw insults, but when he does it, it's derailing from the original point? Yeah no. that's some flawed Logic.

Point being, Raskta's a skilled duelist and in all of his encounters prior to the ransacking of the Jedi temple, with Satele and Kao Cen Darach, he clearly goes in lightsaber blazing( ) that would also apply here.

DMB made a deliberate false claim about Raskta's use of the force for augmentation and didnt support it with an example

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DMB is right about raskta's command of the force and how she applies it, but Malgus should ultimately win this fight. While Malgus isn't as intimitely skilled as Raskta with the blade, I believe his raw power should be able to secure him the fight. Return!Malgus was not as purely skilled as Darach, but his pure rage and power ended up dominating him in the end. Matching up Raskta against a more skilled and powerful incarnation of Malgus won't bode well for her. And whilst Orbalisk Bane is a far more dominating combatant than Hope!Malgus, not only did Raskta have battle meditation (which would greatly bolster her efforts and diminish Bane's,) but she had the aid of her companions such as Farfalla to bail her out when Bane exercised his force abilities.

Malguz have rezizt explozion right in the face and zo on and zo on like vador !!

I felt the need to respond to this, so I did:

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You mean like when you tried to make people understand the mechanics and implications of why Vitiate>The Ones?
See, this is why no one respects you here besides DMB and the like. DMB and LeGenD were actually, you know, having an educated debate? Jumping in and defending DMB lowers his credibility, which increases all the "Bane sux" shit that been going on, and your own, despite your intentions obviously being to defend your "droogie." Trying to demoralize and lower LeGenD's words to where they hold no credibility, which you were trying to do there, is pretty outrageous. Suggesting Vitiate>The Ones is actually implied in statements, and while majority of users disagree (including myself), that doesn't give you a right to mimic and insult him for it.


Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Lsu isn't a battlemaster though. She's a "Weapon's master". clear difference broski. Look it up
I'm beginning to blame myself for this personality you now have... it's nothing like how I used to know. And quite frankly, making that comment only makes Lsu look worse... ****ing Thon was a "weapon's master."


Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The same could be said for Jedi Weapon's masters dude.
No, it can't actually.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So you can throw insults, but when he does it, it's derailing from the original point? Yeah no. that's some flawed Logic.
Yet barging into this debate, guns drawn and ready to defend DMB despite him being perfectly find on his own, and then yelling at someone for insulting when you did it in return is not flawed logic?

Legend does it all the time, for less ridiculous claims than this. If he can't handle the heat he should get the **** out of the kitchen tbh.

LeGenD is cool though, he puts Revan>Yoda, so I approve of his actions (since my opinion is the only one that matters).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LeGenD is cool though, he puts Revan>Yoda, so I approve of his actions (since my opinion is the only one that matters).

Watch your tongue child.

He puts Surik above Revan in sabers, so he's obviously a sane man with at least some intelligence, but tbh even I struggle to stomach some of the things he posts.

Nah, he puts Revan as a far superior combatant. Anyone who says Surik is above Revan in sabers never read the Revan novel, mother.

Revan barely did anything with a Lightsaber, except her disarmed by shitiate.

Revan's display against the Guard was infinitely superior to Surik's.

He killed one, when he had to deal with one.

She killed one in the time it took him to kill one, then killed two in about the same amount of time...

While he was disarmed by someone who can barely hold a lightsaber.

No, she didn't "kill one in the time it took him to kill one." There were 6 guards present + Yarri.
T3 killed one, Revan killed one, the other 4 and Yarri engaged Scourge and Meetra during Revan vs Vitiate.
The circumstances behind one of the guards death is unknown, but 2 were killed by Meetra and 1 + Yarri was killed by Scourge.
Note that Meetra had much difficulty with the guards she faced, while Revan handily demolished the sucker within a second or so.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LeGenD is cool though, he puts Revan>Yoda, so I approve of his actions (since my opinion is the only one that matters).
your funny but really who says LSU WINS HERE? IM GONNA READ ON THATS kind of a shocker for me ill use her and Sarro Xaj next time (evil chuckle)

Originally posted by Selenial
Revan barely did anything with a Lightsaber, except her disarmed by shitiate.
thank you i hate vitiate as well

Originally posted by Selenial
Watch your tongue child.

He puts Surik above Revan in sabers, so he's obviously a sane man with at least some intelligence, but tbh even I struggle to stomach some of the things he posts.
WO WO WO Surik above revan in sabers...............I dont know about that.

Still waiting on DMB to show any feats of force augmentation for Raskta that occurs in text (not off panel) and without battle meditation

Originally posted by carthage
Still waiting on DMB to show any feats of force augmentation for Raskta that occurs in text (not off panel) and without battle meditation

this guy takes it i forgot that BM was an edge for her.........mmmmmm i might go with malgus now.......damn

When are the pro-Malgus debaters going to give up on arguing Malgus takes Force? Because literally everyone here agrees he does.

The point is that Malgus is completely outmatched in lightsaber skill and and given he himself is a Sith Juggernaut, then Lsu can kill him long before he bothers to bring his Force prowess into play.

Malgus' lightning can be blocked by her dual sabers and his Telekinesis will not have the desired effect.

Oh and LeGenD, Lsu killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb did, so yeh she has.

Originally posted by AncientPower
When are the pro-Malgus debaters going to give up on arguing Malgus takes Force? Because literally everyone here agrees he does.

The point is that Malgus is completely outmatched in lightsaber skill and and given he himself is a Sith Juggernaut, then Lsu can kill him long before he bothers to bring his Force prowess into play.

Malgus' lightning can be blocked by her dual sabers and his Telekinesis will not have the desired effect.

Oh and LeGenD, Lsu killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb did, so yeh she has.

That's off panel and doesn't make her as skilled as Malgus who has beaten Darach and forced to the ground. Raskta has no comparable showings in beating duelists such as Satele and Darach, and she is outclassed as a force user. She also has no feats to prove she can even withstand Malgus's strength without BM.

Ah the 'no names are red shirts' fallacy, killing thousands of Sith is an incredibly impressive feat and shows that she is truly a master of saber combat without equal in her time.

Kaan's Sith may not have been the strongest in the Force but they clearly had martial skill, as the CSWE implies.

Satele Shan and Kao Cen Darach's own feats in lightsaber combat do not compare to Lsu's, ignoring them by stating that she had a BM amp and avoiding the fact Bane's own advantages were thrice that of her own is a weak argument.

She killed thousands of Sih, from grunts to lords to masters and evidently her lacking in Force defense ability did not cause her death in any single one of those fights.

The 'Lsu dies cus she sux' argument, which is basically what this has boiled down to, is a fallacy and a strawman at best.

Does she have average Force Defense feats? Yes, has this ever gotten her killed in the countless thousands of occasions where she supposedly should have been? No.

Does she with a BM amp outspeed Bane by multiple degrees? Yes she does, considering Bane's own considerable speed feats then we can conclude that without one she would be around his own speed level at the very least, which is not bad at all.

Her Precognition however was considerable and is likely what helped her counter her lacking defense, this combined with her speed would make her a vert fast and adaptable fighter.

Hope Malgus is in no way superior to amped Orb Bane and is infact inferior by a fairly large margin. Scale Bane and Lsu down to standard degrees and they are both still considerably faster than Malgus.

She never killed thousands of Sith, lol, or even close to that. It's called an hyperbole. She probably killed like 13 and the Jedi did a ritual dance over how powerful she was.

She is stated to have killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb did.

No she wasn't. It was stated that the Jedi rumors believed she did:
"It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb."

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ah the 'no names are red shirts' fallacy, killing thousands of Sith is an incredibly impressive feat and shows that she is truly a master of saber combat without equal in her time.

Kaan's Sith may not have been the strongest in the Force but they clearly had martial skill, as the CSWE implies.

Satele Shan and Kao Cen Darach's own feats in lightsaber combat do not compare to Lsu's, ignoring them by stating that she had a BM amp and avoiding the fact Bane's own advantages were thrice that of her own is a weak argument.

She killed thousands of Sih, from grunts to lords to masters and evidently her lacking in Force defense ability did not cause her death in any single one of those fights.

The 'Lsu dies cus she sux' argument, which is basically what this has boiled down to, is a fallacy and a strawman at best.

Does she have average Force Defense feats? Yes, has this ever gotten her killed in the countless thousands of occasions where she supposedly should have been? No.

Does she with a BM amp outspeed Bane by multiple degrees? Yes she does, considering Bane's own considerable speed feats then we can conclude that without one she would be around his own speed level at the very least, which is not bad at all.

Her Precognition however was considerable and is likely what helped her counter her lacking defense, this combined with her speed would make her a vert fast and adaptable fighter.

Hope Malgus is in no way superior to amped Orb Bane and is infact inferior by a fairly large margin. Scale Bane and Lsu down to standard degrees and they are both still considerably faster than Malgus.

Bringing up her amped speed feats isn't helping her, she has nothing to suggest she is faster or more skilled than Malgus (without bm). Satele blitzed multiple Sith before reaching Malgus, and her speed did nothing to circumvent his physical strength and superior skill that drove her to the ground.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No she wasn't. It was stated that the Jedi rumors believed she did:
"It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb."

That doesn't make it rumor, it is simply praise, much like Revan is given. Thank you though, I didn't know it directly referred to Sith Lords.

Originally posted by carthage
Bringing up her amped speed feats isn't helping her, she has nothing to suggest she is faster or more skilled than Malgus (without bm). Satele blitzed multiple Sith before reaching Malgus, and her speed did nothing to circumvent his physical strength and superior skill that drove her to the ground.

Except she does, you simply scale her down from that performanxe, putting her at the very least on Bane's speed level.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You mean like when you tried to make people understand the mechanics and implications of why Vitiate>The Ones?
That was an exploratory topic. You understand the purpose of an exploratory topic? Learn about it. I still maintain that The Ones are hyped beyond measure but this is a different topic.

For this topic, I am highlighting a ground reality of the implications of the command of the Force and raw power for a Force-user. I can provide many examples with which I can clarify this ground reality.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Lsu isn't a battlemaster though. She's a "Weapon's master". clear difference broski. Look it up
A weapon's master typically becomes a Battlemaster. This is a matter of choice or promotion.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And? Malgus' MO is not to use force powers first.
What nonsense.

Malgus is a dynamic individual, not a black & white operational system with limited set of instructions and lack of conscious.

As an example, Malgus used the Force to kill a Jedi on Aldeeran who attempted to ambush him. No lightsaber dueling was involved in this clash.

Malgus frequently uses a lightsaber in combat situations because he is a Sith Warrior and martial aspects of combat are his specialization. He is confident in his abilities and he have slaughtered many competent foes with just his lightsaber dueling abilities. However, he is a dynamic and experienced individual and can choose to fight an opponent in different ways.

What happened to your intellectual capability?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The same could be said for Jedi Weapon's masters dude.
Indeed. You got this right.

The problem is that Lsu is lacking in raw power and command of the Force aspects, she is not powerful in the ways of the Force. She cannot contend with a stronger foe due to these factors under fair circumstances. This is how things are in Star Wars.

Revan is not noted for his martial skills but he will shit on most foes because of his excellent command of the Force and raw power in a battle. Try to comprehend.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So you can throw insults, but when he does it, it's derailing from the original point? Yeah no. that's some flawed Logic.
Some of his points were irritating. Instead of understanding an analogy, he twisted it into an irrelevant direction. If he is not getting a point, he can simply request an elaboration instead of attacking my intelligence.

Try to learn some ethics of a debate and you will do well.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Point being, Raskta's a skilled duelist and in all of his encounters prior to the ransacking of the Jedi temple, with Satele and Kao Cen Darach, he clearly goes in lightsaber blazing( ) that would also apply here.
Malgus is a dynamic individual, a master swordsman, and have significant command of the Force and raw power. A perfect combination of competence holistically.

In comparison, Lsu is massively outgunned in the aspects of command of the Force and raw power. Realistically she is utterly outgunned in this contest and will perish. No rocket science.

Originally posted by Selenial
Legend does it all the time, for less ridiculous claims than this. If he can't handle the heat he should get the **** out of the kitchen tbh.
No, I don't. I don't participate in many debates either because I don't have such time.

I mostly start my debates in a decent manner but I am not the only one who have the obligation to maintain decency, my fellow debater have the same obligation. Issue arises when people start to attack intelligence of a person. Ponder over this.

Legend, do you think it would be a close or decent fight?

Originally posted by Sinious
Legend, do you think it would be a close or decent fight?
Their is a big disparity between the two in raw power and command of the Force aspects.

Based on this fact, Lsu is not going to do well.

Originally posted by Selenial
He puts Surik above Revan in sabers, so he's obviously a sane man with at least some intelligence, but tbh even I struggle to stomach some of the things he posts.


I was asserting that Revan was powerful in the ways of the Force and a competent duelist back in 2003, a time when critics would even say that Revan may have used bombs, guns, grenades and stuff to defeat Darth Malak on Star Forge. I have got many things right besides this one. This is a measure of intellectual capability.

Some level of intelligence? I am an accomplished man in practical life.

In comparison, lot of kids in this forum who are just growing up but mistakenly assume that they are superior to anybody in intellectual capability behind a screen.

Most of my statements are well-supported and have logic. I do have the tendency to think out of the box sometimes (e.g. my exploratory topics and assessments) but I get most things right. Confidence.

I have trained some padawans too and they are doing well, Neph being one of them. Right now, DMZ and Xtasy are in need of training.

Imagine the things we both can accomplish if we become allies on the INTERNET. Join me and together we should overthrow the reigning Emperor of SWTOR forums.

@DarthAnt66

Thank you

Originally posted by carthage
Bringing up her amped speed feats isn't helping her, she has nothing to suggest she is faster or more skilled than Malgus (without bm). Satele blitzed multiple Sith before reaching Malgus, and her speed did nothing to circumvent his physical strength and superior skill that drove her to the ground.

Originally posted by AncientPower
When are the pro-Malgus debaters going to give up on arguing Malgus takes Force? Because literally everyone here agrees he does.
I am not being pro-Malgus by choice, I am being neutral and rational.

Malgus takes the Force? This is childish argument. Malgus can defeat Lsu in multiple ways including in strictly lightsaber duel.

Command of the Force and raw power influence the effectiveness of a Jedi in all aspects including martial aspects. Of-course, some Jedi focus on honing their talents in martial aspects of combat but they can still be decent Force-users holistically because they have such raw power.

By your logic, Lsu will defeat Bane in fair circumstances because she have presumably superior martial skills. This advantage won't be enough.

Why do you think Hero of Tython and Revan are such competent warriors? Are they due to being competent duelists or they also have incredible raw power and command of the Force?

Originally posted by AncientPower
The point is that Malgus is completely outmatched in lightsaber skill and and given he himself is a Sith Juggernaut, then Lsu can kill him long before he bothers to bring his Force prowess into play.
This is asinine.

Malgus is a master swordsman, and unlike Lsu, have real credibility.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Malgus' lightning can be blocked by her dual sabers
Like this?

At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.

Shouting with pain, the Jedi leaned forward into the lightning - teeth bare, blue blades held before him - and staggered toward Malgus. Despite his burns, he came onward. One step, another, another, but he was failing, wilting in the heat of the lightning. Malgus channeled more power and the Jedi fell to his knees, screaming. The lightning spiraled around the Zabrak, blasting dark holes in his body. The lightsabers fell from his hands and he writhed in agony, screaming his pain into the sky.

Malgus ended his attack. The Jedi, ruined, fell to the ground and rolled over onto his back.

Taken from The Third Lesson

Keep in mind that this Jedi is (very) powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by AncientPower
and his Telekinesis will not have the desired effect.
Like this?

Malgus relented in his attack, backed off a few steps, and reached out through the Force. Immediately he felt the faint, intentionally suppressed signature of another light-side user to his right. The Jedi's ally was hidden in the rubble, moving closer.

Malgus loosed a furious series of overhand strikes that forced the Zabrak to retreat rapidly. Sidestepping a stab from the Jedi, Malgus rode his motion into a Force-augmented spinning side kick that hit the Jedi in the ribs and sent him cartwheeling into the wall of nearby building. At the same time, he reached out with the Force for the hidden light-side user, brushed aside the resistance he felt, and pulled the Jedi out of hiding.

A human male in his twenties rose up out of ruins, dangling like a fish on the hook of Malgus's power. His legs kicked futilely; the green blade of his lightsaber cut at empty air; he gagged as Malgus's power squeezed shut his throat.

"Vorin!" shouted the Zabrak.

"So much for your ambush," Malgus said, and closed his fist, crushing Vorin's windpipe. He let the body fall to the charred earth.

Taken from The Third Lesson

---

What part of this statement:

"A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks."

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

- you are not getting?

As I said before, Malgus may just snap her neck like he did to a Jedi.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and LeGenD, Lsu killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb did, so yeh she has.
She hasn't. Its just a hearsay.

And again, Brotherhood Sith were mostly mooks.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because TCSWE confirms he is the Sith'ari, lmfao.

Really? When? I've always gone off the Book of Sith quote which says he's not the Sith'ari...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not being pro-Malgus by choice, I am being neutral and rational.

Malgus takes the Force? This is childish argument. Malgus can defeat Lsu in multiple ways including in strictly lightsaber duel.

Command of the Force and raw power influence the effectiveness of a Jedi in all aspects including martial aspects. Of-course, some Jedi focus on honing their talents in martial aspects of combat but they can still be decent Force-users holistically because they have such raw power.

By your logic, Lsu will defeat Bane in fair circumstances because she have presumably superior martial skills. This advantage won't be enough.

Why do you think Hero of Tython and Revan are such competent warriors? Are they due to being competent duelists or they also have incredible raw power and command of the Force?


This is asinine.

Malgus is a master swordsman, and unlike Lsu, have real credibility.


Like this?

At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.

Shouting with pain, the Jedi leaned forward into the lightning - teeth bare, blue blades held before him - and staggered toward Malgus. Despite his burns, he came onward. One step, another, another, but he was failing, wilting in the heat of the lightning. Malgus channeled more power and the Jedi fell to his knees, screaming. The lightning spiraled around the Zabrak, blasting dark holes in his body. The lightsabers fell from his hands and he writhed in agony, screaming his pain into the sky.

Malgus ended his attack. The Jedi, ruined, fell to the ground and rolled over onto his back.

Taken from The Third Lesson

Keep in mind that this Jedi is (very) powerful Jedi.


Like this?

Malgus relented in his attack, backed off a few steps, and reached out through the Force. Immediately he felt the faint, intentionally suppressed signature of another light-side user to his right. The Jedi's ally was hidden in the rubble, moving closer.

Malgus loosed a furious series of overhand strikes that forced the Zabrak to retreat rapidly. Sidestepping a stab from the Jedi, Malgus rode his motion into a Force-augmented spinning side kick that hit the Jedi in the ribs and sent him cartwheeling into the wall of nearby building. At the same time, he reached out with the Force for the hidden light-side user, brushed aside the resistance he felt, and pulled the Jedi out of hiding.

A human male in his twenties rose up out of ruins, dangling like a fish on the hook of Malgus's power. His legs kicked futilely; the green blade of his lightsaber cut at empty air; he gagged as Malgus's power squeezed shut his throat.

"Vorin!" shouted the Zabrak.

"So much for your ambush," Malgus said, and closed his fist, crushing Vorin's windpipe. He let the body fall to the charred earth.

Taken from The Third Lesson

---

What part of this statement:

"A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks."

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

- you are not getting?

As I said before, Malgus may just snap her neck like he did to a Jedi.


She hasn't. Its just a hearsay.

And again, Brotherhood Sith were mostly mooks.

You are not actually taking into account anything i am actually stating, just reasserting your belief that Lsu gets stomped with the Force by any mediocre Sith with decent Force capability.

Raskta Lsu is an incredibly skilled Sword Master and the best the Jedi had seen in centuries. She has superior martial skill and lightsaber skill than Malgus does by a strong margin.

Raskta Lsu has exceptional precognition even for an Echani, which will only increase her effectiveness.

Raskta Lsu has exceptional environmental awareness and analysis of her opponents, she was a master in practice of every style and form available to the Jedi.

She would gear her own style and combat tactics to suit whatever type of opponent she faced, Bane himself noted her ability to adapt. This was reinforced in her evidental ambidextrous style.

Raskta Lsu with a Battle Meditation amp was magnitudes faster than Bane was and she was appearing as a blur that was everywhere at once. This whilst in the center of a very strong concentration of Dark Side energy, essentially a nexus as confirmed earlier in the novel by Bane.

The Battle Meditation amplification itself did seem to increase all the Jedi by about 20% in energy/power. Lsu therefore still seems to be much faster than Bane himself was without said BM amp which is still many times faster than Malgus.

Oh and for the second time, it isn't rumor it is just hero praise, the same kind of statements thrown at Revan constantly, no one seems to have any trouble accepting those. Now as much as the Thought Bomb, is yes very likely just hyperbole, but it is no doubt placed in truth however so she should still have a record Sith Lord kill count.

Lsu doesn't have exceptional skill in Force Defense, because she restricted all of her prowess in the Force to techniques that bolster her ability in combat, including Force Augmentation.

Just because she doesn't have considerable skill in Force Defense does not however mean that anyone with a half decent Force Push roflstomps her.

Again Malgus' feats in Third Lesson are in concert with being enormously pissed off at his almost dying not even an hour prior, his feats here are not consistent with his feats in the Hope trailer itself.

I just don't see Malgus in a neutral environment being able to so easily dispatch the Weapon Master when 95% of his own offense is with the blade. Malgus has shown previous preference for defeating enemies with his blade and not with his Force Prowess.

His mindset engaging Ven Zallow was all about dominating and killing him with his blade. If he sees a genuinely worthy combatant, a specailist in saber combat then he wants to kill with his blade, your own quotes prove this.

The idea that her neck can just be snapped on the spot is completely contradictory to her own feats in combat. If it was that easy Bane would have done so himself.

All the factors listed above lead to one outcome: Darth Malgus is outduelled and killed by the Echani Weapon Master.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You are not actually taking into account anything i am actually stating, just reasserting your belief that Lsu gets stomped with the Force by any mediocre Sith with decent Force capability.
This is not my point. My point is that Lsu cannot contend with a Force-user with relatively superior raw power and command of the Force who also happens to be a master swordsman like her.

Clear enough?

Their are certain ground realities of the lore which should not be overlooked or ignored due to bias.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Raskta Lsu is an incredibly skilled Sword Master and the best the Jedi had seen in centuries. She has superior martial skill and lightsaber skill than Malgus does by a strong margin.
Where it has been stated she is the best Jedi in a span of centuries? Yes, she is a master swordsman but this is not enough for a Force-user.

Also, your claims regarding superiority of Lsu over Malgus in martial aspects of combat are unfounded and subjective. Unlike Lsu, Malgus have documented examples of incredible swordsmanship and notable victories under his belt. Available evidence favors his position over hers even in this matter.

Lsu have hype and is believed to have defeated many brotherhood Sith but Malgus isn't an average joe.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Raskta Lsu has exceptional precognition even for an Echani, which will only increase her effectiveness.
Her precognition can only be as effective as her command of the Force is. Superiority over Echani doesn't means that she have advantage over Malgus in this aspect.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Raskta Lsu has exceptional environmental awareness and analysis of her opponents, she was a master in practice of every style and form available to the Jedi.

She would gear her own style and combat tactics to suit whatever type of opponent she faced, Bane himself noted her ability to adapt. This was reinforced in her evidental ambidextrous style.
Of-course, she is a competent combatant. However, you are only focusing on her merits and not her limitations, this is why your position is weak.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Raskta Lsu with a Battle Meditation amp was magnitudes faster than Bane was and she was appearing as a blur that was everywhere at once. This whilst in the center of a very strong concentration of Dark Side energy, essentially a nexus as confirmed earlier in the novel by Bane.
Bane was being reckless, not exercising precision in handling her moves. In addition, orbalisks may have slowed his movement; still he dodged many attacks.

And yes, Lsu was that fast due to effect of BM on her. This is not her actual performance, and it is useless to cite it. Common sense.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Battle Meditation amplification itself did seem to increase all the Jedi by about 20% in energy/power. Lsu therefore still seems to be much faster than Bane himself was without said BM amp which is still many times faster than Malgus.
And you know this how? BM meant difference between life and death for the Jedi, it had such significant impact on the performance of the Jedi. I have already debunked this baseless argument and you continue to repeat it.

And no, she won't be as fast as Bane in normal situation. She matched or exceeded his speed only with effect of BM on her.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and for the second time, it isn't rumor it is just hero praise, the same kind of statements thrown at Revan constantly, no one seems to have any trouble accepting those. Now as much as the Thought Bomb, is yes very likely just hyperbole, but it is no doubt placed in truth however so she should still have a record Sith Lord kill count.
Hero praise? Revan have documented examples of competence and performance and he lives up to his hype.

Also, Lsu doesn't have a record kill count. In-fact, if you speak of records, kill count of Emperor's Wrath exceeds 1000 including more then 100 Sith kills.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lsu doesn't have exceptional skill in Force Defense, because she restricted all of her prowess in the Force to techniques that bolster her ability in combat, including Force Augmentation.

Just because she doesn't have considerable skill in Force Defense does not however mean that anyone with a half decent Force Push roflstomps her.
And this is a consequence of her lack of raw power which also hindered her ability to manipulate the external environment (command of the Force).

Someone with half decent Force push? You kidding? Malgus threw Satele Shan into a large tree without difficulty. This is not half-decent, it shows how powerful he is, that he could toss around other powerful opponents as if they are fodder even as of Hope.

Just an hour or two later, Malgus blasted away tons of rubble away from him with this raw telekinetic power.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Again Malgus' feats in Third Lesson are in concert with being enormously pissed off at his almost dying not even an hour prior, his feats here are not consistent with his feats in the Hope trailer itself.
This is utter nonsense and a cop out.

What makes you think that Malgus wasn't using his emotions such as anger in his fight against Satele Shan and Jace Malcom? The latter fired missiles at Malgus and one of them struck the Sith Lord, injuring him in the process. You think that Malgus won't be angry after this moment?

Just because we don't have a description of the aforementioned battle, doesn't means that well-known Sith related mechanics were not in the works behind-the-scenes.

Sith Lords commonly use their emotions to fuel their power. This is their doctrine, and Malgus is not an exception to this rule. Get your facts straight.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I just don't see Malgus in a neutral environment being able to so easily dispatch the Weapon Master when 95% of his own offense is with the blade. Malgus has shown previous preference for defeating enemies with his blade and not with his Force Prowess.
In a neutral environment? Aldeeran is a neutral environment, genius.

Also, Malgus is a dynamic individual; he uses different ways to dispatch his opponents. He blasted Malcom with lightning but dueled Satele Shan. In another confrontation, he dueled a Jedi first but used his Force powers to destroy him afterwards. During the course of this particular struggle, Malgus used his powers to kill another Jedi who attempted to ambush him.

Your assertion is baseless again, a norm in this thread.

Originally posted by AncientPower
His mindset engaging Ven Zallow was all about dominating and killing him with his blade. If he sees a genuinely worthy combatant, a specailist in saber combat then he wants to kill with his blade, your own quotes prove this.
You forgot that Malgus send Zallow packing into a fallen concrete structure with his telekinetic push with such a force that Zallow just bore right through the structure like a bullet. Earlier, Malgus swung his lightsaber towards Zallow with telekinetic approach but Zallow managed to evade this attack.

And Zallow is actually a powerful Jedi. If it was Lsu, she would have died from the impact on concrete structure.

Your assertion is baseless again, a norm in this thread.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The idea that her neck can just be snapped on the spot is completely contradictory to her own feats in combat. If it was that easy Bane would have done so himself.
Yes, her neck can be snapped. A powerful Sith Lord or Jedi can certainly snap her neck since she lacks in defensive aspects and raw power.

Bane did not even attempt snapping her neck, your point is moot.

Originally posted by AncientPower
All the factors listed above lead to one outcome: Darth Malgus is outduelled and killed by the Echani Weapon Master.
You are wrong and your arguments are baseless.

I thought you were a well centered debater but half your statements are essentially just insults and "My opinion > Your's" statements.

If you want to debate this like an adult then i am all for it, however if all you are going to do is dismiss points with inconclusive opinions combined with misplaced insults then i have no need to debate this with you.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I thought you were a well centered debater but half your statements are essentially just insults and "My opinion > Your's" statements.

If you want to debate this like an adult then i am all for it, however if all you are going to do is dismiss points with inconclusive opinions combined with misplaced insults then i have no need to debate this with you.
Where are the insults? Labeling your unsubstantiated statements as baseless is not insulting. This is an expression of ENLIGH language.

What is the meaning of the world baseless?

Without basis.

If you are not comfortable with the word baseless, I can use another term for it.

Also, I will correct you on another point; I am not presenting opinions; I am presenting substantiated and supported points. You are presenting opinions in contrast.

You know what an opinion is?

A belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty

Learn to differentiate between an opinion and a substantiated point.

You lost in this debate because of your weak arguments, now don't try to take out your frustration on me.

I didn't lose, you are ignoring half my argument by stating that I'm wrong and baseless, oh and this:

"Your argument is baseless. A norm in this thread."

Is insulting, you're stating that my arguments and everyone else's that don't comply with your's are baseless.

I have provided numerous pieces of evidence because all of my statements are grounded in the works I'm drawing from.

Your accusations of being baseless are both unwarranted and incorrect.

I haven't made a single argument here that isn't based in sources. On the other hand half your arguments are just 'your intrepretation is wrong, mine is right'. By contrast I have compromised on mine to have a finer debate.

You are making huge leaps in logic, here is one example:

A few generic 'master swordsman' accolades on Malgus' part do not equate to being called the best duelist of her time. Does not equate to having full mastery and knowledge on every weapon, form and style available in either order. Most certainly does not equate to being a Weapon Master, Jedi Temple Instructor for decades and being a record Sith Killer among the Jedi Order.

Here is another example:

That Malgus simply snaps her neck from the get-go despite the fact that Bane didn't attempt this himself despite being in an incredibly desperate situation. Not to mention the countless occasions where Lsu engaged Sith Lords and killed every single one of them.

A third one, just for emphasis:

She has a hyperbole/praise statement gifting her the accolade of having killed as many Sith Lords with her blades as the Thought Bomb eradicated, matching the complete mastery of martial and lightsaber skill she has achieved.
According to you however, despite this mastery the statement has absolutely no basis in her actual accolades/feats. I even agreed that the Thought Bomb part was hyperbolic, yet I stated that, as with all hyperbole in Star Wars the accolade is grounded in truth. She very likely does have an extremely impressive kill count.

I am sorry but your argument over this particular accolade is a strawman.

These are all pretty monumentous leaps in logic I am afraid to say.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I didn't lose, you are ignoring half my argument by stating that I'm wrong and baseless, oh and this:

"Your argument is baseless. A norm in this thread."

Is insulting, you're stating that my arguments and everyone else's that don't comply with your's are baseless.
1. Stop being so sensitive. That is not an insult.

2. If you think that your position in this debate have merit because of your stubbornness, their is nothing much I can do.

We are now going in circles because of your bias and lack of comprehension. I have addressed all of your points with concrete evidence, yet you continue to accuse, ignore, overlook and repeat.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have provided numerous pieces of evidence because all of my statements are grounded in the works I'm drawing from.
Show me a single quote that you have cited in this thread. Its me and DMB who have cited actual content in the debate to support our arguments.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Your accusations of being baseless are both unwarranted and incorrect.


Why do you think I had to cite content from multiple sources to counter your claims?

Look, I don't like to argue for the sake of argument. I have provided ample evidence in favor of Malgus in this thread, which guides readers to the most informed conclusion about this hypothetical contest.

If you cannot comprehend provided evidence and not realize your mistakes, we cannot have a debate.

If I were in your position, I would have conceded. My intelligence wouldn't have been in question if I had lost in a debate due to lack of information or sufficient research on my part about the topic in discussion, rather my concession would be representative of my intelligence and rationality.

Nobody is going to reward me with a trophy for my victory in a debate or boo you for your loss in a debate. So think rationally and settle this debate.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I haven't made a single argument here that isn't based in sources. On the other hand half your arguments are just 'your intrepretation is wrong, mine is right'. By contrast I have compromised on mine to have a finer debate.
You are relying upon your memory alone and this is why you ended up making mistakes and poorly constructed claims.

Here are some of your gems:-

1. Originally posted by AncientPower
Malgus' powers by 'hope' are little to be in awe of and barely notable

2. Originally posted by AncientPower
Lsu severely outmatches Malgus in sabers and likely speed as well, combine that with her precog and Malgus is essentially out of his depth.

3. Originally posted by AncientPower
Hope Malgus as standard had lightning that Malcom could tank, not jaw dropping by any means.

All poorly formulated and lacking in depth and understanding of the power of character in question and merits of his opponents. These gems are from from page 1 only. Their are lot more gems in this entire thread from you. Several other members have also noticed errors in your posts including your ally DMB.

What do you expect? Sympathy? Or you have doubt about my sanity?

I would have no interest in this debate if I had not noticed errors in the arguments presented. I jumped in to correct the misconceptions and I have done that so far. But for critics, this became a matter of ego after they lost in the debate. And then you accuse me of insulting.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You are making huge leaps in logic, here is one example:

A few generic 'master swordsman' accolades on Malgus' part do not equate to being called the best duelist of her time. Does not equate to having full mastery and knowledge on every weapon, form and style available in either order. Most certainly does not equate to being a Weapon Master, Jedi Temple Instructor for decades and being a record Sith Killer among the Jedi Order.
Malgus doesn't just have the accolade of being a master swordsman, he have actual history of defeating and/or outdueling other master swordsmen and/or competent warriors who also happened to be powerful in the ways of the Force.

In contrast, Lsu have less impressive and mostly unsubstantiated history. She may have been the best duelist of her era but she lived in a different time then Malgus. Therefore, you cannot declare Lsu as being superior to Malgus in martial aspects of combat based on this claim, it won't fly.

As for the other remarks, Malgus doesn't have to be her equal in all that to outduel her, his superior command of the Force and raw power will be enough. Though Malgus isn't lacking in martial expertise, it is his specialty.

The competence of a Jedi is dependent upon his power and command of the Force and not exclusively on martial abilities. This is why a Jedi will defeat Bruce Lee in combat.

If you are not getting my point then I have a question for you: Why do you think Cin Drallig lost to Anakin Skywalker?

FYI: Cin Dralling was a master of all forms of lightsaber combat and a Jedi Battlemaster as well. His skills had been described as being "nearly unparalleled."

From the official profile:

An esteemed Jedi Master and a swordsman of great skill, Cin Drallig was the head of security for the Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

As you can notice, hype is significant. But performance against a powerful and skilled opponent was really lacking.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Here is another example:

That Malgus simply snaps her neck from the get-go despite the fact that Bane didn't attempt this himself despite being in an incredibly desperate situation. Not to mention the countless occasions where Lsu engaged Sith Lords and killed every single one of them.
So just because Bane didn't made that attempt, it means that he could not do so?

Why is their a story and drama in the novel? Any ideas?

If Bane had held Lsu in a choke, their was nothing she could do and she would have been at his mercy at this point. Issue was that Lsu wasn't alone, her companions were helping her and they kept Bane under pressure.

In this confrontation, Lsu is alone and her defenses are lacking. It doesn't takes an Einstein to figure out her fate when Malgus decides to choke her or snap her neck.

Also, you keep on highlighting Brotherhood Sith as an analogy for Lsu's competence. Do you seriously believe that those mooks are as powerful as Malgus?

And then you accuse me of being insulting and vice versa.

Originally posted by AncientPower
A third one, just for emphasis:

She has a hyperbole/praise statement gifting her the accolade of having killed as many Sith Lords with her blades as the Thought Bomb eradicated, matching the complete mastery of martial and lightsaber skill she has achieved.
According to you however, despite this mastery the statement has absolutely no basis in her actual accolades/feats. I even agreed that the Thought Bomb part was hyperbolic, yet I stated that, as with all hyperbole in Star Wars the accolade is grounded in truth. She very likely does have an extremely impressive kill count.
How many times you have to tell me this?

Who is her opponent in this thread? Malgus or an unknown Brotherhood mook?

Originally posted by AncientPower
I am sorry but your argument over this particular accolade is a strawman.

These are all pretty monumentous leaps in logic I am afraid to say.
Oh I am so sorry, I dared to pinpoint fallacies in your statements. How could I do this? You are so perfect and all-knowing. You supported every inch of your argument with actual citations and rationality is overflowing from your remarks.

Please forgive me for my naivety and lack of knowledge. I never even heard of these characters before and decided to jump in arguing about their capabilities.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That doesn't make it rumor, it is simply praise, much like Revan is given. Thank you though, I didn't know it directly referred to Sith Lords.
Lol, yes it does. It's called an hyperbole, broski.


I own and read the BOS and never saw anywhere that says that, link? And here:

"After Adas's death at the hands of Rakatan invaders, many pretenders claimed to hold the title of Sith'ari, but none was able to restore the Sith to power until the discovery of a man named Dessel. Dessel was trained on Korriban during the years leading up to the Battle of Ruusan; he eventually became Darth Bane, the man who reinvented the Sith and established the Rule of Two." The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume 3, p. 155

I think the BOS quote Seleniel is referring to is Sidious claiming that Bane isn't the Sith'ari, and is trying to assert that he is in fact the Sith'ari.

But if a character statement in BOS means that much, then Sorzus Syn and Plagueis are also the Sith'ari.

Doesn't confirm him as the Sith'ari.

The book of Sith Quote is:

Yep, exactly the quote I thought you were talking about. That's Sidious wanking himself.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think the BOS quote Seleniel is referring to is Sidious claiming that Bane isn't the Sith'ari, and is trying to assert that he is in fact the Sith'ari.

But if a character statement in BOS means that much, then Sorzus Syn and Plagueis are also the Sith'ari.

Well actually apply the code. Bane wasn't free of restriction as he never ruled, and was forced to hide from the Jedi.

Palpatine was uncontrolled and truly free from restriction.

Yes, it does actually.

lol @ passing off Sidious wanking himself as canon.

You just proved my point whilst protesting having done so.

Claiming my arguments have no basis despite yourself discussing said basis, being sarcastic for no reason and claiming superiority of your own interpretation over my own, and essentially calling me stubborn and incomprehensible of debates is insulting my intelligence.

Why would I provide statements when everybody here already knows the feats and accolades I am making my argument with? Quote dumping doesn't win debates.

Which was my point because everyone here already knows what those feats are, all my argumrnts are grounded in said feats, but like several other things I've said you took it to mean something else entirely.

No I will not concede in a debate where you ignore what you don't counter and insult my ability to debate when you do.

Apologies for not treating Malgus like he is an unstoppable wrecking machine, his feats after Hope, as the Third Lesson displays are circumstantial and contain strong evidence of a rage amplification making them irrelevant to his Hope incarnation.

So absence of evidence is evidence of absence? Her abilities and knowledge are on full display against a Bane whose advantages are thrice that of her own, she dominates him with little aid beyond Battle Meditation.

Jothun is featless and lacks the skill of Raskta herself or her apprentice Sarro Xaj. Farfalla was incapable of aiding her in the duel despite himself sharing said BM amp and also being a master duelist.

Not to mention that her potentially thousands of Sith Lord kills are evidence in and of themselves.

As far as Cin Drallig is concerned, he was old and far past his prime by the ROTS novelisation as user Selenial pointed out with evidence in the Community Tier thread.

Oh and assuming Sith Lords of any incarnation are all mooks who can barely hold lightsabers is an intense lowball, so is assuming every single one of the thousands to select from all are as well.

Killing one of either Lsu or Worror would have ended the fight, so yes Bane not going for an easy surgical kill is either extreme PIS or evidence that Lsu is not so easily trashed with the Force.

I have a different opinion from your own, we clearly aren't going to agree so I suggest leaving it at this.

Until someone actually shows evidence of any feats of force augmentation she has outside of the ones with battle meditation, I'm just going to assume that this is just pointless theorizing. Malgus should be able to just beat her down and dispose of her with his force abilities- like he did to Aryn

Originally posted by AncientPower
You just proved my point whilst protesting having done so.

Claiming my arguments have no basis despite yourself discussing said basis, being sarcastic for no reason and claiming superiority of your own interpretation over my own, and essentially calling me stubborn and incomprehensible of debates is insulting my intelligence.
I labeled your points as not having basis due to them not actually in this thread so far. I am not questioning your intellectual capability, I am questioning your unsubstantiated statements and position in this debate. But you seem to be hell-bent on asserting that mouse > cat.

You are not setting a good debating precedent for yourself if you continue to act this way. People will eventually stop taking you seriously because they will notice that you ignore valid points. I have seen this happen but I am not mentioning names.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Why would I provide statements when everybody here already knows the feats and accolades I am making my argument with? Quote dumping doesn't win debates.
Who is quote-dumping here?

Also, it is always wise to double-check available evidence for a topic before delving into it. Us (humans) don't have infallible memory.

Those who do not double-check available evidence for a topic, typically end up making mistakes and poorly informed assertions. This is exactly what have happened here since you have made this mistake. Yet, you fail to notice errors in your post. I don't know what to say.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Which was my point because everyone here already knows what those feats are, all my argumrnts are grounded in said feats, but like several other things I've said you took it to mean something else entirely.
This is not about everybody, this is about you.

You are making unsubstantiated statements and you WILL BE held accountable for these errors every time you make them whether you like this or not. You should get your facts straight for your own good.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No I will not concede in a debate where you ignore what you don't counter and insult my ability to debate when you do.
I am not ignoring your points, I am addressing them with available evidence.

Also, I have not insulted your ability to debate. You are too sensitive it seems.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Apologies for not treating Malgus like he is an unstoppable wrecking machine, his feats after Hope, as the Third Lesson displays are circumstantial and contain strong evidence of a rage amplification making them irrelevant to his Hope incarnation.
Not accepted. Malgus isn't unstoppable but he is indeed a wrecking machine and superior to your girlfriend Lsu.

His feats as of Hope are circumstantial? You continue to get more ridiculous with passing time. You don't have an iota of understanding of the ground realities of the lore and keep on posting more unsubstantiated nonsense.

Lesson # 1 for dummies:-

THE FORCE is a vast, unknowable energy that surrounds and binds all living things in the galaxy. But like life itself, the Force has a dark side, exemplified by base emotions like aggression, hatred, or fear. Sith famously adhere to the dark side, using the Force to corrupt, shape, and destroy life.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

---

Malgus is a practitioner of the dark side, he will use his emotions such as anger to fuel his inner strength. This is what Sith learn to do as part of their doctrine.

Malgus is an adept in harnessing his emotions such as anger to fuel his inner strength, he pulls this as off at will:

FOR MORE THAN THREE DECADES Darth Malgus has played a crucial role in many major Imperial victories. He has repeatedly taken enemies by surprise and crushes even the strongest resistance with his unorthodox methods and powerful anger.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Here is another example of Darth Malgus using anger to fuel his inner strength:

Malgus used his distaste for Adraas to further feed his anger. He had requested that Darth Angral allow him to lead the attack alone, but Angral had insisted that Adraas lead the drop ship team.

Discarding his cloak, discarding the remaining restraints on his rage, Malgus joined the Sith charge, taking position before Adraas. Emotion fed his power, and its swell fairly lifted him from his feet. He felt the power of the dark side around him, within him.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

Another:

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

Observations of Darth Sidious:

"The writings of Darth Malgus confirm that anger, combined with will, is the key to power. When anger intensifies to rage, it is unstoppable. Malgus utterly submitted to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated."

Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the dark side

The available data confirms that Malgus frequently uses his emotions such as anger or rage to fuel his inner strength. He pulls this off at will. This is expected from a competent Sith.

Your point is moot.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So absence of evidence is evidence of absence? Her abilities and knowledge are on full display against a Bane whose advantages are thrice that of her own, she dominates him with little aid beyond Battle Meditation.
Bane had advantage of orbalisks. In comparison, Lsu had the advantage of being significantly augmented by BM and support from several Jedi. Point is that this is not accurate representation of Lsu's actual combat prowess.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Jothun is featless and lacks the skill of Raskta herself or her apprentice Sarro Xaj. Farfalla was incapable of aiding her in the duel despite himself sharing said BM amp and also being a master duelist.
Doesn't matters what they are individually. As a Strike Team, they presented major challenge to both Darth Bane and Darth Zannah.

Farfalla was incapable of aiding her?

Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance.

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

What I have been telling you till now? That you need to focus on available evidence instead of making unsubstantiated claims. So far, you have not heeded my advice.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not to mention that her potentially thousands of Sith Lord kills are evidence in and of themselves.
Again this nonsense?

Where have it been confirmed that she had killed thousands of Sith Lords or even Sith in general?

This is trollish behavior, you realize? I suggest that you take time off from this discussion if you are upset at this moment. Don't waste my time with trollish behavior.

Originally posted by AncientPower
As far as Cin Drallig is concerned, he was old and far past his prime by the ROTS novelisation as user Selenial pointed out with evidence in the Community Tier thread.
Both Count Dooku and Yoda were old but they did not lacked as combatants. This is not a convincing reasoning.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and assuming Sith Lords of any incarnation are all mooks who can barely hold lightsabers is an intense lowball, so is assuming every single one of the thousands to select from all are as well.
Brotherhood Sith were weak holistically. This is why Darth Bane despised them and planned their elimination. Same guy admired the ancients for their mindset and power in the ways of the dark side. None of them are comparable to Malgus, not even the best of them.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Killing one of either Lsu or Worror would have ended the fight, so yes Bane not going for an easy surgical kill is either extreme PIS or evidence that Lsu is not so easily trashed with the Force.
Bane was trying to kill them, issue was that the Jedi were coordinating their moves and BM had made them very effective.

Bane could have killed Lsu easily if it was just her but BM and her allies contributed to her effectiveness and safety for as along as the BM lasted.

And yes, she is easily trashed by the Force power:

A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks.

The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani.

Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two

The other Jedi saved her, with a simple Force barrier. She couldn't do this herself. What a pity.

The reason that she did well against Brotherhood Sith is because they are mooks on average. She had never faced a real Sith Lord before Bane. Sorry if truth hurts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have a different opinion from your own, we clearly aren't going to agree so I suggest leaving it at this.
You can assert that a mouse is stronger then a cat and kill it in a fight, doesn't makes it credible.

People don't care about opinions, they care about facts and credibility. Your stubbornness is not a good sign. Heed my advice.