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http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/MD_zpsde0a4a5e.png

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/BDR_zpse49c5030.jpg

Michael, and that pic is just awesome.

Beyonder. Keep in mind I'm saying Beyonder, not Kosmos or Maker.

Post Retcon Beyonder :
a) fought MM in a transmultiversal battle
b) erased Death from the multiverse
c) the mighty of the Multiverse (which included the LT/Eternity/Order/Chaos/etc.) couldn't stop him from doing what he did in b) and they couldn't undo what he did
d) he's created and populated a universe by himself

There's more but you get the point.

Michael + Lucifer > pre ret con beyonder

Michael > Post ret con beyonder

Originally posted by Board Walker
Michael + Lucifer > pre ret con beyonder

Michael > Post ret con beyonder
How?

Post Retcon Beyonder by himself did something it took LUCIFER + MICHAEL + Gabriel to do (create and populate a universe). How exactly is Michael > Post Retcon Beyonder again?

Originally posted by zopzop
How?

Post Retcon Beyonder by himself did something it took LUCIFER + MICHAEL + Gabriel to do (create and populate a universe). How exactly is Michael > Post Retcon Beyonder again?

Michael+Lucifer+Gabriel created a omniverse not a universe.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Michael+Lucifer+Gabriel created a omniverse not a universe.
Proof?

They only created a universe and it took 3 of them.

Michael and Lucifer created a Multiverse as was shown in Nirvana.

Vertigo's angels are quite possibly the most overrated characters in fiction.

Yeah, kind of like that Shuma Gorath character someone always overrates.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Michael and Lucifer created a Multiverse as was shown in Nirvana.

The prime vertigo verse of which michael and lucifer made, contained an untold amount of multiverses, as evident from the additional one made in nirvana and the infinite collection of multiverses in the hall of souls which existed outside of any specific multiverse.

Vertigo was a omniverse as it contained an infinite number of multiverses and universes outside of those within it.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Yeah, kind of like that Shuma Gorath character someone always overrates.

I don't overrate Shuma-Gorath. If anything, people on this board underrate him, saying he's below Asgardians and silly things like that.

Let me guess, Zop?

Originally posted by Board Walker
Michael + Lucifer > pre ret con beyonder

Michael > Post ret con beyonder

I would even say Lucifer by himself would beat pre retcon beyonder. He doesnt have the sheer output of power than Beyonder does but he is vastly more intelligent and manipulative. I think he would manipulate him without any real difficulty, prolly convince him to make himself mortal then kill him. Like in Secret wars 2 Beyonder is too prideful and simpleminded that Lucifer would easily beat him that way.

Originally posted by RangerDX
I would even say Lucifer by himself would beat pre retcon beyonder. He doesnt have the sheer output of power than Beyonder does but he is vastly more intelligent and manipulative. I think he would manipulate him without any real difficulty, prolly convince him to make himself mortal then kill him. Like in Secret wars 2 Beyonder is too prideful and simpleminded that Lucifer would easily beat him that way.

This is very accurate, Lucifer would outwit beyonder and take his power for his own.

LMAO. I love how people argue for Lucifer as if his wit is an option in every battle.

Lucifer vs TOAA - LUCIFER WINS CUZ SMARTS!

Michael.

Originally posted by CortSether
LMAO. I love how people argue for Lucifer as if his wit is an option in every battle.

Lucifer vs TOAA - LUCIFER WINS CUZ SMARTS!

Have you even read Secret wars? Beyonder turned himself human just to make a point and left all his power in an hourglass. He was a retard compared to Lucifer lol, if u really dont think Lucifer outsmarting him and tricking him is a possibility im not sure youve even read the Lucifer series. seems all the ppl who call him overrated just look for stuff in respect threads or forums. no one would argue that Lucifer would beat TOAA
Lucifer is the most intelligent, manipulative and cunning character in comics without a doubt

Originally posted by RangerDX
Have you even read Secret wars? Beyonder turned himself human just to make a point and left all his power in an hourglass. He was a retard compared to Lucifer lol, if u really dont think Lucifer outsmarting him and tricking him is a possibility im not sure youve even read the Lucifer series. seems all the ppl who call him overrated just look for stuff in respect threads or forums. no one would argue that Lucifer would beat TOAA
Lucifer is the most intelligent, manipulative and cunning character in comics without a doubt

So you're saying Lucifer wins because for whatever reason, Beyonder decides to go full retard and just give up his power? Yea, sure pal.

Originally posted by RangerDX
Have you even read Secret wars? Beyonder turned himself human just to make a point and left all his power in an hourglass. He was a retard compared to Lucifer lol, if u really dont think Lucifer outsmarting him and tricking him is a possibility im not sure youve even read the Lucifer series. seems all the ppl who call him overrated just look for stuff in respect threads or forums. no one would argue that Lucifer would beat TOAA
Lucifer is the most intelligent, manipulative and cunning character in comics without a doubt

Good point. Didn't he even give a portion of his power to Rachel?

Originally posted by CortSether
So you're saying Lucifer wins because for whatever reason, Beyonder decides to go full retard and just give up his power? Yea, sure pal.

Well he would get talked into it without even realizing it. It would be in some conversation where he wouldnt even know he was being manipulated. Honestly dude have u read Lucifer lol

Originally posted by Golgo13
Good point. Didn't he even give a portion of his power to Rachel?

Yeah enough power for Rachel to kill him and he gave her that choice. LOL @ anyone thinking Lucifer wouldnt completely mind**** this clown

Originally posted by Board Walker
The prime vertigo verse of which michael and lucifer made, contained an untold amount of multiverses, as evident from the additional one made in nirvana and the infinite collection of multiverses in the hall of souls which existed outside of any specific multiverse.

Vertigo was a omniverse as it contained an infinite number of multiverses and universes outside of those within it.
Then you need to tell that to the writer of the Lucifer series. Elaine, Lucifer and crew merged Yahweh's universe, Lucifer's universe, and Elaine's universe into ONE UNIVERSE.

Then at the end of the Lucifer series, Elaine merged with the UNIVERSE. Not multiverse, not omniverse, UNI-VERSE. UNI means ONE.

Beyonder didn't need anyone else's power or permission to create and populate his universe.
Originally posted by RangerDX
Well he would get talked into it without even realizing it. It would be in some conversation where he wouldnt even know he was being manipulated. Honestly dude have u read Lucifer lol



Yeah enough power for Rachel to kill him and he gave her that choice. LOL @ anyone thinking Lucifer wouldnt completely mind**** this clown
If you read the Secret War series, you'd understand why Beyonder was doing what he was doing. He wanted to understand the nature of desire and that's why he was giving various beings power to do as they willed to see how they'd respond when he granted their wish.

Originally posted by zopzop
Then you need to tell that to the writer of the Lucifer series. Elaine, Lucifer and crew merged Yahweh's universe, Lucifer's universe, and Elaine's universe into ONE UNIVERSE.

Then at the end of the Lucifer series, Elaine merged with the UNIVERSE. Not multiverse, not omniverse, UNI-VERSE. UNI means ONE.

Beyonder didn't need anyone else's power or permission to create and populate his universe.

If you read the Secret War series, you'd understand why Beyonder was doing what he was doing. He wanted to understand the nature of desire and that's why he was giving various beings power to do as they willed to see how they'd respond when he granted their wish.

I have read the series and more, it is stated that lucifer created a multiverse in nirvana. On panel showed that the "universes" you are referencing were multiverses within a omniverse.

why? Reread my previous post.

Hey there friends, some nice Beyonder low ballin I see.

Anyway, Beyonder was uber intelligent/clever. ...
Anything less was to justify a story where God walks amongst man.
... and as for Doom:
(when that Doom stole his power ... Beyonder manipulated his way back with slick cunning)

That aside, don't know where Hickman is going to take the Beyonder,
but we know in 2010 Beyonder's power in the hands of 3 separate mortals
remade All Creation (past-present-future) 3 times in one nano second.

So take that for what it's worth.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I have read the series and more, it is stated that lucifer created a multiverse in nirvana. On panel showed that the "universes" you are referencing were multiverses within a omniverse.

why? Reread my previous post.
There were three universes that were merged together. It took Elaine/God, Lucifer and Elaine's host of angels to accomplish this task.

Elaine merged with the UNI-verse during the FINAL issue of the Lucifer series.

That's it. The very final issue of the series called it a UNI-verse because that's what it was.

Originally posted by zopzop
Then you need to tell that to the writer of the Lucifer series. Elaine, Lucifer and crew merged Yahweh's universe, Lucifer's universe, and Elaine's universe into ONE UNIVERSE.

Then at the end of the Lucifer series, Elaine merged with the UNIVERSE. Not multiverse, not omniverse, UNI-VERSE. UNI means ONE.

Beyonder didn't need anyone else's power or permission to create and populate his universe.

If you read the Secret War series, you'd understand why Beyonder was doing what he was doing. He wanted to understand the nature of desire and that's why he was giving various beings power to do as they willed to see how they'd respond when he granted their wish.

Lucifer would still play him like a fiddle. He's the freaking devil.

Beyonder was the freakin God.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Lucifer would still play him like a fiddle. He's the freaking devil.
The entire Marvel cosmic hierarchy couldn't do it. Lucifer won't get anywhere either.

Originally posted by zopzop
The entire Marvel cosmic hierarchy couldn't do it. Lucifer won't get anywhere either.

Most of them are morons compared to Lucifer himself. Don't even compare.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Most of them are morons compared to Lucifer himself. Don't even compare.

So you think Lucifer is superior to all of Marvel combined?

Post-Retcon Beyonder is not above all of Marvel. Sure, his SW2 feats have been referenced even post-retcon but there have also been references that he's below individual Celestials. So....

He's really contradictory, but the intention was clearly that post-retcon Beyonder is not above all of Marvel. I mean, that's the whole point of retconning him.

I'm not saying post-retcon Beyonder is above all of Marvel. I'm saying Lucifer isn't superior to the entire Marvel cosmic hierarchy.

Originally posted by operator616

Post-Retcon Beyonder is not above all of Marvel. Sure, his SW2 feats have been referenced even post-retcon but there have also been references that he's below individual Celestials. So....
Hey there good friend. That refers to Kosmos (shell comparable to Kubik) solely imo.
Beyonder was considered something far greater by the same writer the following year as we both know in the FFAnnual#27.

If we go based on "statements" ...
then "statements" were made by the same writer in #27 which over-ride Kubik's in #26.
And that uber feat by Owen/Beyonder to accompany the statements solidifies it imo.
Originally posted by operator616

He's really contradictory, but the intention was clearly that post-retcon Beyonder is not above all of Marvel. I mean, that's the whole point of retconning him.
True. But I'm thinking he's been retconned again.

Originally posted by CortSether
So you think Lucifer is superior to all of Marvel combined?

Did I say combined? No. I said he's smarter than most and definitely more manipulative.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey there good friend. That refers to Kosmos (shell comparable to Kubik) solely imo.
Beyonder was considered something far greater by the samer writer the following year as we both know in the FFAnnual#27.

If we go based on "statements" ...
then "statements" were made by the same writer in #27 which over-ride Kubik's in #26.
And that uber feat by Owen/Beyonder to accompany the statements solidifies it imo.

That's not what i was referring to. I was referring to the master edition bio, where it references his SW2 feat of being above death while at the same time referring to the fact that he was mindraped by the Celestials.

So using the "post-retcon Beyonder > all of Marvel" is nonsensical. I agree, however that FFA #27 Beyonder > Kosmos.

Originally posted by Mr Master


True. But I'm thinking he's been retconned again.

I doubt that, but we'll wait and see.

Lol this thread Pre-Retcon Beyonder would rekt.

Originally posted by zopzop
There were three universes that were merged together. It took Elaine/God, Lucifer and Elaine's host of angels to accomplish this task.

Elaine merged with the UNI-verse during the FINAL issue of the Lucifer series.

That's it. The very final issue of the series called it a UNI-verse because that's what it was.

Well we know for a fact the original creation (Yahweh's) was a Multiverse due to Sandman. I always took it that once they pulled both creations through Elaine's gates into her universe, you end up with a bigger Multiverse, with both universes/multiverses (depending on what you quote) stacked next to each other or whatever. And only then Elaine could become God of all the universes because they were all within her creation.

But the whole argument about Lucifer's creation is pretty much pointless at this point, some people will go with the characters saying universe, and some people where they say Multiverse- the fact that they also say creation a lot doesn't help as that could mean either or both.