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I just came across this analysis about Darth Nihilus from Beni: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718532&page=133

Am I the only one who finds his assessment extreme?

If Darth Nihilius have no limits then he could have destroyed the entire galaxy in a single attempt. Why bother targeting planet after planet which would be slow and risky process?

Nihilus's Katarr based feat can be a ritualistic development (still an awesome feat and one of the best of the mythos). We just have statement from Visas to consider for this matter but she never witnessed Nihilus performing this action, she was not with him when he attacked Katarr.

Also, KoTOR-CG provides information about how Nihilus became such an adept with Force Drain:

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical height - so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's power in a calculated double-cross.

Yes, Nihilus eventually becomes a being of hunger and pure dark side power, a living primitive intention, but he is still a functioning Force-user with a command of the Force (not human of-course). His condition likely makes it possible for him to perform Force Drain on a massive scale but he still have limits.

Darth Traya even asserted that Nihilus will eventually self-destruct.

From SWTOR:

They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order's senior members. Walking Katarr's lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice.

Rituals usually take a very long time where his Kattar feat took 1 hour. A single hour for a giant death cloud to sweep across an entire planet seems a lot shorter than a ritual would take

We see the technique used multiple times and theres no ritual involved.

I usually say that for all he's a cancer in the force, sufficiently powerful force users will either cure (light side) or destroy (dark side) that cancer.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Rituals usually take a very long time where his Kattar feat took 1 hour. A single hour for a giant death cloud to sweep across an entire planet seems a lot shorter than a ritual would take
Some Force powers manifest quickly, Force Drain is among the fastest powers to manifest. Also, every kind of ritual does not take long to materialize, this is a misconception. Power of the practitioner can also influence the speed of manifestation of powers from ritualistic expressions.

It is likely that Nihilus had a lock on signatures of all Force-sensitive inhabitants of the Katarr before he commenced the attack, like a homing beacon. His sensory capabilities may have been very well developed in part due to his condition that facilitated his hunger. But this event would not have been possible without significant preparation beforehand. See the case of attempted attack on Telos IV below.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We see the technique used multiple times and theres no ritual involved.
Not on planetary-scale.

Nihilus approached Telos IV prior to confrontation with Strike Team led by Surik, right? He didn't manage to assault Telos IV in the manner of Katarr during these developments and was taken down.

He was going to but the strike team is the reason why he didn't eat Telov IV.

Also because since there wasn't a lot of Force energy on the planet, it wasn't the same circumstances as Katarr. Traya tricked him to go their specifically for that purpose.

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer."
― Tobin (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

The first step in understanding him is to actually play the game.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Rituals usually take a very long time where his Kattar feat took 1 hour.

Source?

If you want to understand Darth Nihilus, go to that TOR forum and find the person that ranks Nihilus as number one in the list of top 10 Sith Lords.

He will have the answers you seek.

Wha?

Originally posted by Bigblue442
Source?

Unseen, unheard.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
If you want to understand Darth Nihilus, go to that TOR forum and find the person that ranks Nihilus as number one in the list of top 10 Sith Lords.

He will have the answers you seek.

You seek enlightenment?

Oh boy.

Originally posted by The Merchant
He was going to but the strike team is the reason why he didn't eat Telov IV.
Nihilus would have eventually, but I am talking about the time required for preparation for an attack of such a scale.

My point is that Nihilhus could not pull a feat of such a scale with a single word. He would have done so otherwise. Strike Team's arrival wouldn't have mattered.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also because since there wasn't a lot of Force energy on the planet, it wasn't the same circumstances as Katarr. Traya tricked him to go their specifically for that purpose.

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer."
― Tobin (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)
Your opening remark is interesting.

Tobin simply asserted that Nihilus would not be able to satiate his hunger properly by attacking a planet lacking in Force-sensitive inhabitants.

I still maintain that Nihilus needs ample time and preparation to unleash an attack on a planetary scale. Katarr also doesn't seems like a large planet.

If he could unleash an attack of planetary scale with a word, he would have done this at Telos IV.

Allow me to break it down for you, firstly, lets be clear on the definition of infinite, which is not something that is unlimited in every respect i.e. all powerful, but:

limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Darth Nihilus is not unlimited in every respect, to claim that his powers are infinite does not mean Nihilus is all-powerful or omnipotent, it does not mean he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants, such as consume a galaxy, what it means is that there are no limits to the amount of power Nihilus has the capacity to wield. To explain further:

Nihilus, as a Force Wound incarnate, is constantly consuming the Living Force around him to sustain his hunger, simply by being in his presence one is drained. And every time Nihilus consumes Living Force two thing happen, the Force energy he has at his disposal increases, and his capacity to drain the Force around him increases. Therefore Nihilus powers are constantly increasing, simply by manner of existing Nihilus grows stronger with every waking moment, and because he is not limited by midi-chlorians there is no point at which he will reach maximum capacity, he will keep consuming and consuming and consuming, growing stronger and stronger with no end in sight because the Force will never run out.

How does one measure something that is constantly increasing in size and scope, and by mere virtue of existing, will never stop increasing?

As infinite. the power Nihilus possesses is an immeasurable, infinite number.

Returning to Legend's point, what he is doing is taking Nihilus powers as a snapshot, a freeze frame if you will in which lets say his powers are at 200, which is enough power only to consume a planet. But considering Nihilus powers are constantly increasing, that at a moment later he is at 300 and then some, this is not an accurate depcition of his power, we cannot take Nihilus at any one point as say "this is Nihilus" because his powers are in a constant state of flux.

Simply put his powers are immeasurable, unquantifiable, which is primarily why we cannot consider him for a list which is ultimately all about quantifying power.

P.S. There is no evidence to suggest that Nihilus powers are the product of ritual, and as far as we are aware his variant of Force Drain is a non-ritualistic power.

Originally posted by Based
The first step in understanding him is to actually play the game.

Beni,

If Nihilus is continuously increasing in power, why does he feels the need to attack planets again and again? And why he failed to consume Telos IV on short notice after approaching it in space?

Something is amiss.

When he feels weak, he decides to consume on mass scale. Otherwise, he continues to function for days without bothering to do so because his hunger is satiated for a while. Force exists everywhere so if he could sustain himself by consuming it directly, he wouldn't have focused on individuals (he cannot feed on the Force directly). He prefers to target Force-sensitive individuals to satiate his hunger.

Point is that while he consumes, he also expends the energy performing various tasks and activities, and performing a drain on mass scale would require lot of energy and effort.

The instability is that he is not able to maintain energy within him properly, perhaps in part due to his condition.

Their are so many variables.

Calling him 'infinite' is a little misleading. People call the Hulk's strength infinite too. It isn't. It just grows as he gets angrier, but at no given point is it actually infinite.

Anyways....

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/210-character-profile-darth-nihilus

Compare:

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/general-obd-terms/8-character-profiles/529-character-profile-yoda

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/387-character-profile-darth-caedus

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/224-character-profile-exar-kun

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/279-character-profile-darth-sidious

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/206-character-profile-sith-emperor

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/408-character-profile-abeloth

Those profiles contain lot of technical detail, impressive. Thanks for sharing.

I like, for Sidious's list of fights, he wins all of them save Thor and Green Lantern. Tells you what kind of guy you have to be to take him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not on planetary-scale.

Nihilus approached Telos IV prior to confrontation with Strike Team led by Surik, right? He didn't manage to assault Telos IV in the manner of Katarr during these developments and was taken down.

Irrelevant. The scale doesn't matter, its the same technique so it takes the same amount of time to use and the same prerequisites. That is to say, none at all. Nihilus and Traya both used it at will on screen, so thats how Nihilus' drain can be used.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
Source?

Unseen, Unheard confirms that it took Nihilus under an hour to consume the planet of Katarr.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nihilus, as a Force Wound incarnate, is constantly consuming the Living Force around him to sustain his hunger,

No he isn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Irrelevant. The scale doesn't matter, its the same technique so it takes the same amount of time to use and the same prerequisites. That is to say, none at all. Nihilus and Traya both used it at will on screen, so thats how Nihilus' drain can be used.


I know that he can perform Force Drain swiftly. I am focusing on the scale of attack.

Their is hell of a difference in using powers against an opponent or two and on mass level.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Calling him 'infinite' is a little misleading. People call the Hulk's strength infinite too. It isn't. It just grows as he gets angrier, but at no given point is it actually infinite.

Anyways....

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/210-character-profile-darth-nihilus

Compare:

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/general-obd-terms/8-character-profiles/529-character-profile-yoda

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/387-character-profile-darth-caedus

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/224-character-profile-exar-kun

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/279-character-profile-darth-sidious

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/206-character-profile-sith-emperor

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/408-character-profile-abeloth very cool. I don't agree with 100% of it but it is still well done. Darth Vader should be done

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I know that he can perform Force Drain swiftly. I am focusing on the scale of attack.

Their is hell of a difference in using powers against an opponent or two and on mass level.

Not to the extent of needing to perform a ritual for the latter and completely change the nature of the technique.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to the extent of needing to perform a ritual for the latter and completely change the nature of the technique.
But uncertainty remains.

Visas revealed that inhabitants of Katarr (including herself) heard his voice during the attack. Therefore, her remark that when he spoke, everybody died.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Calling him 'infinite' is a little misleading. People call the Hulk's strength infinite too. It isn't. It just grows as he gets angrier, but at no given point is it actually infinite.That's because unlike Nihilus, I assume the Hulk ultimately has a limit, a capping point.

If he doesn't then yeah, infinite strength right there.

That I am aware of. But we have no idea how much time it takes him for him to pull off a feat of such a scale. That he have limits too. He is not perfect, he will eventually self-destruct.

It takes him under an hour.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It takes him under an hour.
For preparation?

No, the act itself. Supposedly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For preparation?

No, to drain a planet.

Therefore uncertainty remains.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Calling him 'infinite' is a little misleading. People call the Hulk's strength infinite too. It isn't. It just grows as he gets angrier, but at no given point is it actually infinite.

Anyways....

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/210-character-profile-darth-nihilus

Compare:

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/general-obd-terms/8-character-profiles/529-character-profile-yoda

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/387-character-profile-darth-caedus

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/224-character-profile-exar-kun

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/279-character-profile-darth-sidious

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/206-character-profile-sith-emperor

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/8-character-profiles/408-character-profile-abeloth

Why are you using what people on another forum think to be the case as some form of evidence?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Therefore uncertainty remains.

No it doesn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't.
So what is your take on Telos IV event? He had ample time to attack the planet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So what is your take on Telos IV event? He had ample time to attack the planet. Wasn't his fleet sort of intercepted by another fleet on the way?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So what is your take on Telos IV event? He had ample time to attack the planet.

He was likely trying to sense where the Jedi enclave he'd been told about was. And confused as to why he couldn't sense it. Also he might not have been in range yet.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Wasn't his fleet sort of intercepted by another fleet on the way?
No.

The battle of Telos IV took place around the planet.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was likely trying to sense where the Jedi enclave he'd been told about was. And confused as to why he couldn't sense it. Also he might not have been in range yet.
Atris was on the planet at that time. He couldn't sense her?

Range argument is also weak. The battle took place around the planet. Also, the first phase of battle involved the Space Station orbiting the planet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Atris was on the planet at that time. He couldn't sense her?

Range argument is also weak. The battle took place around the planet.

A single Jedi is beneath his notice. He was told that there were enough to satisfy his hunger.

So what? His ship may have still been too far away from the planet for him. It's not as if "around the planet" means he's right next to it, he's still hundreds of miles separate from it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

The battle of Telos IV took place around the planet. He could have been 100,000 miles away (and was probably further away than that) while still being "around" the planet.

Space is big, my son, and any assertion that Nihilus required a ritual to perform something we've seen him do onscreen is pure speculation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A single Jedi is beneath his notice. He was told that there were enough to satisfy his hunger.
She could have served as a homing beacon for him.

Force-sensitives weren't beneath his notice, they were too important to ignore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? His ship may have still been too far away from the planet for him. It's not as if "around the planet" means he's right next to it, he's still hundreds of miles separate from it.
Too far away?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060923224045/starwars/images/f/f0/Ravagerboom.jpg

---

In comparison:

http://i.imgur.com/tyyzwci.jpg

Originally posted by NemeBro
He could have been 100,000 miles away (and was probably further away than that) while still being "around" the planet.

Space is big, my son, and any assertion that Nihilus required a ritual to perform something we've seen him do onscreen is pure speculation.
He was not:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060923224045/starwars/images/f/f0/Ravagerboom.jpg

As for the ritual, inhabitants of Katarr heard his voice at the time of attack. Visas confirmed this.

He doesn't makes a voice while attacking individuals with Force Drain during combat situations or does he?

Indeed, and he was going to, just he was cut short by the arrival and confrontation with the Exile.
I suspect how long it takes him to drain depends on how much Force energy is in the planet. Katarr had much more then Telos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She could have served as a homing beacon for him.

Force-sensitives weren't beneath his notice, they were too important to ignore.

A homing beacon for what? There was no real jedi enclave on Telos for him to attack. He was probably just pondering on that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Too far away?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060923224045/starwars/images/f/f0/Ravagerboom.jpg

---

In comparison:

http://i.imgur.com/tyyzwci.jpg

Your comparison is off, the ship is clearly closer in the second image, enough that we can see buildings and individual mountains.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Indeed, and he was going to, just he was cut short by the arrival and confrontation with the Exile.
I suspect how long it takes him to drain depends on how much Force energy is in the planet. Katarr had much more then Telos.
The Strike Team was busy fighting in the Station to secure it before boarding Ravager.

Nihilus had ample time to attack Telos IV.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A homing beacon for what? There was no real jedi enclave on Telos for him to attack. He was probably just pondering on that.
This is just an assumption.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your comparison is off, the ship is clearly closer in the second image, enough that we can see buildings and individual mountains.
The details are meaningless. Katarr is apparently very small.

In comparison, see Earth: http://www.funxite.com/media/9157-earth-view-from-space-station.jpg

Not really. And it's not like he had to do it right away, no living being in the galaxy was even worthy of his recognition.
Trying to understand the actions of a being like him doesn't really work... he perceives time and the galaxy differently from others.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is just an assumption.

You asked for an explanation, so I've given you one. If you can't think of a way to dispute it, then admit that your argument has failed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The details are meaningless. Katarr is apparently very small.

This is just an assumption. Nihilus' ship could also be much closer and thus the details are noticeable.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really. And it's not like he had to do it right away, no living being in the galaxy was even worthy of his recognition.
Trying to understand the actions of a being like him doesn't really work... he perceives time and the galaxy differently from others.
All I am getting are assumptions. Nothing concrete.

Show me evidence of Nihilus draining on planetary scale with a word.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You asked for an explanation, so I've given you one. If you can't think of a way to dispute it, then admit that your argument has failed.
Your explanation is also an assumption.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is just an assumption. Nihilus' ship could also be much closer and thus the details are noticeable.
Did you notice the planetary curvature? Obviously Nihilus's ship was at a distance that he could observe plantary curvatures.

Now see this:

http://www.funxite.com/media/9157-earth-view-from-space-station.jpg

You can see the curvature but not mountains and buildings. The planet is very big. This is why.

And Nihilus was this close to Telos IV. Recheck the image.

Well, he was going to, which is the whole plot, but the Exile stops him beforehand.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He was not:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060923224045/starwars/images/f/f0/Ravagerboom.jpg

As for the ritual, inhabitants of Katarr heard his voice at the time of attack. Visas confirmed this.

He doesn't makes a voice while attacking individuals with Force Drain during combat situations or does he? What is that? A picture for ants!?

Anyway, in the attack on Katarr, as Neph noted, you can see individual mountains and shit with a great deal of clarity.

Well considering that it's obviously telepathic and not audible, we don't actually know.

I'll throw Nephthys a bone by pointing out that there is evidence that Nihilus was perplexed by the small amount of Force energy on Telos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpO__IJra4o

"Kreia has lied to you. There are no Jedi here. You have sensed it."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your explanation is also an assumption.

It is still adequate to deny your theory that the only reason for why he couldn't drain Telos was that he was preparing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you notice the planetary curvature? Obviously Nihilus's ship was at a distance that he could observe plantary curvatures.

Now see this:

http://www.funxite.com/media/9157-earth-view-from-space-station.jpg

You can see the curvature but not mountains and buildings. The planet is very big. This is why.

And Nihilus was this close to Telos IV. Recheck the image.

Hoho, but doesn't that kind of prove my point? If its very small, then Nihilus could be very close and still be able to see the curvature of the planet. Whether or not it's small though, if he's close enough to see buildings and individual mountains, thats pretty damn close. I can't see jack shit on that picture of earth, can you? His ship would have to be much closer than that satellite to be capable of doing that.

Btw, satellites are still hundreds of miles from earth. I think the minimum distance is 200 miles. And no, Nihilus' ship was much much farther away. Your picture is just shit and you don't understand perspective.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Show me evidence of Nihilus draining on planetary scale with a word. Hey sure man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHSstYl9Yfs

"When my Lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died."

You're welcome.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, he was going to, which is the whole plot, but the Exile stops him beforehand.
Again, Strike Team had boarded a space station orbiting the planet earlier. Nihilus had ample time.

When the Strike Team boarded Ravager, they had to fight through its defenses to reach Nihilus. Again, Nihilus had ample time.

All I am getting are excuses and assumptions. If Nihilus could destroy a planet with a mere thought, he had ample time to do so during the battle of Telos IV. He didn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Again, Strike Team had boarded a space station orbiting the planet earlier. Nihilus had ample time.

When the Strike Team boarded Ravager, they had to fight through its defenses to reach Nihilus. Again, Nihilus had ample time.

All I am getting are excuses and assumptions. If Nihilus could destroy a planet with a mere thought, he had ample time to do so during the battle of Telos IV. He didn't. Prove all of these statements that Nihilus had "ample time".

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Again, Strike Team had boarded a space station orbiting the planet earlier. Nihilus had ample time.

When the Strike Team boarded Ravager, they had to fight through its defenses to reach Nihilus. Again, Nihilus had ample time.

All I am getting are excuses and assumptions. If Nihilus could destroy a planet with a mere thought, he had ample time to do so during the battle of Telos IV. He didn't.
Like I said 15 times now, he was going to, but that doesn't mean he had to do it instantly. PIS and other forces of nature worked against him to make him wait until it was too late.

The whole reason Nihilus went there and wanted to drain Telos was because he thought Jedi were there. Obviously he'd pause in doing so when he senses there are no Jedi there. Thats why he didn't drain the planet until the Exile barged into his bridge.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Prove all of these statements that Nihilus had "ample time".
You cannot read?

Battle of Telos IV was not a short event. Ravager was located or positioned very close to the planet itself. The Strike Team first boarded a space station orbiting the planet to secure it from Sith forces and then proceeded to board Ravager to assassinate Nihilus. During these developments, Nihilus had ample time to attack Telos IV.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You cannot read?

Battle of Telos IV was not a short event. Ravager was located or positioned very close to the planet itself. The Strike Team first boarded a space station orbiting the planet to secure it from Sith forces and then proceeded to board Ravager. During these developments, Nihilus had ample time to attack Telos IV.

How do you know?

You can't even prove that Nihilus was in range to do so.

0fAqt3xtlWw

Just for reference since Legends picture is shit, we can see plainly how close the Ravager was to the planet here. Anyone see any mountains?


Also Legend, Nihilus' voice has been noted in sources as possessing the ability to harm or kill. No ritual required. So it being tied to his technique is plausible and doesn't indicate a ritual at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The whole reason Nihilus went there and wanted to drain Telos was because he thought Jedi were there. Obviously he'd pause in doing so when he senses there are no Jedi there. Thats why he didn't drain the planet until the Exile barged into his bridge.
I know that he approached Telos IV with the information that Jedi had gathered there. Once he arrived, the battle of Telos IV began which was not a short event.

Now, obviously, Nihilus learned that he had been misled. But, he still decided to attack the planet because of hunger factor. He was not willing to leave without feeding.

However, the attack did not happened during the entire course of the battle. This is why the question remains that how much time is needed for him to commence an attack of such a scale. Problem is that nobody knows and this is an unexplored aspect.

Thank you, my son.

The ship clearly isn't as close as it was to Katarr.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Legend, Nihilus' voice has been noted in sources as possessing the ability to harm or kill. No ritual required. So it being tied to his technique is plausible and doesn't indicate a ritual at all.
Interesting.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Thank you, my son.

The ship clearly isn't as close as it was to Katarr.
Or you mistakenly assume that Katarr and Telos IV are of the same size.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For preparation? nope just an hour to destroy the planet

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Or you mistakenly assume that Katarr and Telos IV are of the same size. It doesn't matter how large the planets are.

The cities that can be seen from the ship aren't any smaller than they'd be on Telos. You can see the larger buildings distinctly.

Not so for Telos.

I think its most likely that range was the issue here. As prievously said you can see the landscape of Katarr quite clearly, suggesting he was very close. The size of the planet is irrelevant Legend, even if we pretended your argument wasn't pure conjecture basing itself what is ultimately an artists interpretation and far from accurate evidence, you've still have to be extremely close to make out mountains and structures, even if the planet were moon sized.

However more importantly, the Ravager was in orbit above Telos for a pretty long time, likely hours, enough for the Exile to battle her way through the station, board a transport, battle her way through the Ravager and reach the bridge.

By Legends argument, it therefore takes hours for Nihilus to gather the strength to absorb a planet, which suggests he was in orbit over Katarr for that amount of time. Why is this problematic? Because nobody reacted, picture the scene, the Jedi Order is a crisis, they have been forced into hiding by the Sith, in a desperate act they arrange a secret conclave in attempt to salvage the Jedi Order. A massive Sith warship appears in orbit and proceeds to sit there.

What do the Jedi do in this situation? Sit and wait for the fireworks? No, they get the hell out of there. Simply put Nihilus' attack would have to have come hard and fast otherwise the Jedi would have fled. And yet they didn't and all source point to him striking without warning, and insta-drained the planet.

Given that, the only thing that could have stopped Nihilus consuming Telos, was range, he had to dispense with the Republic fleet before gobbling the planet.

Originally posted by Board Walker
You seek enlightenment?
Do you, Young Lady?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus's Katarr based feat can be a ritualistic development (still an awesome feat and one of the best of the mythos). We just have statement from Visas to consider for this matter but she never witnessed Nihilus performing this action, she was not with him when he attacked Katarr.
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Rituals usually take a very long time where his Kattar feat took 1 hour. A single hour for a giant death cloud to sweep across an entire planet seems a lot shorter than a ritual would take
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Unseen, unheard.




Ah yes, I knew about the "hour to live" mentioned in the comic, but that would be in reference to the time between Atris tipping Nihilus off to the location of the Jedi meeting on Katarr, and Nihilus' traveling to get there.


This idea that some people have of Nihilus traveling to Katarr and just parking his ship up in orbit, powering-up for an attack, is a no-go.


There is no Canon Source saying that Nihilus' ships had Stealth drives on them, so he would be spotted in-system before he could ever have a chance to attack.


Also, there is no Canon Source that says that Nihilus' Drain was a ritual - unless you can find one that states it was, then it isn't.


In Star Wars, ships traveling in Hyperspace, still take hours or days to get to planets - due to Mass Shadows, largely.

So the hour that was referenced in the comic, was a reference to the time between Nihilus learning of the meeting due to Atris, and his fateful arrival at Visas' homeworld.


His attack in KotorII, is instantaneous - and does not manifest in the form of dark clouds - but rather in the form of torrents of Lightning.

The dark clouds seen on Katarr were not swept all over the planet - they were in key areas and the result where vehicles suddenly crashed into buildings, when their operators suddenly died from the Drain - as seen in the destruction of the population centers in Unseen Unheard.

Visas, being Force-sensitive, was intimately-privy to the scope of the attack as it occurred - just as Obi-wan was when feeling the death of Alderaan lightyears
away from either the Deathstar and it's target.

She would have known the moment of the destruction - and as she recalled the event in the comic from past-experience; would have gleaned information from her Master as to how he worked in that regard.


It would have taken her Master considerable time to reach Katarr once tipped off (an hour) and upon arrival, her Master "spoke and all life died."


His attack is defined in Canon not as a ritual, but rather an extension of his being, and is instantaneous according to Canon.



In regard to Telos, it is likely the reason he did not Drain the planet or station, was because he was too far from them, and the Force Wound Surik, boarded his ship, before he could get close enough.





Lastly, following the suggestion that it took him an hour to kill everyone on the planet, everyone on Katarr (being Force-sensitive and thus knowing they were being attacked) would have had ample time in an entire hour to perform a mass evacuation of the planet - with people fleeing from whoever was attacking their world.



So it's not a ritual, and it doesn't take an hour to work - it's virtually instantaneous and part of his nature.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unseen, Unheard confirms that it took Nihilus under an hour to consume the planet of Katarr.
Yes, I knew about the hour mentioned in Unseen, Unheard but I thought they had to be referencing something else.

Because in Star Wars, Hyperspace travel can take hours or days to get from one planet to another, and Visas was speaking of the time it took from Atris tipping Nihilus off to the location of the meeting, and Nihilus' travel to get there.

No Canon Source classifies Nihilus' Drain as a ritual, and his attack couldn't have taken an hour to kill everyone on the planet, because they would have sensed the destruction through the Force and fled en mass.

The attack was virtually instantaneous, and the "hour" that had been mentioned, referenced the amount of time it took Nihilus to get to Visas' homeworld through Hyperspace, after being tipped off.

Originally posted by NemeBro
How do you know?

You can't even prove that Nihilus was in range to do so.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think its most likely that range was the issue here. As prievously said you can see the landscape of Katarr quite clearly, suggesting he was very close. The size of the planet is irrelevant Legend, even if we pretended your argument wasn't pure conjecture basing itself what is ultimately an artists interpretation and far from accurate evidence, you've still have to be extremely close to make out mountains and structures, even if the planet were moon sized.

However more importantly, the Ravager was in orbit above Telos for a pretty long time, likely hours, enough for the Exile to battle her way through the station, board a transport, battle her way through the Ravager and reach the bridge.

By Legends argument, it therefore takes hours for Nihilus to gather the strength to absorb a planet, which suggests he was in orbit over Katarr for that amount of time. Why is this problematic? Because nobody reacted, picture the scene, the Jedi Order is a crisis, they have been forced into hiding by the Sith, in a desperate act they arrange a secret conclave in attempt to salvage the Jedi Order. A massive Sith warship appears in orbit and proceeds to sit there.

What do the Jedi do in this situation? Sit and wait for the fireworks? No, they get the hell out of there. Simply put Nihilus' attack would have to have come hard and fast otherwise the Jedi would have fled. And yet they didn't and all source point to him striking without warning, and insta-drained the planet.

Given that, the only thing that could have stopped Nihilus consuming Telos, was range, he had to dispense with the Republic fleet before gobbling the planet.

I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.

Interestingly:

The Jedi Exile, cut off from the Force, went in search of the remaining Jedi Masters and, perhaps, an explanation. But the Exile's mentor, Kreia, had other plans–when the Exile finally gathered the Masters, Kreia slew them all. As the Exile recovered from this encounter, Kreia deliberately enticed the terrible Darth Nihilus to the planet Telos Four. Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet, and Nihilus's dreadnought, the Ravager, was met by the Republic Navy and Mandalorian forces. During the battle, the Exile boarded the Ravager and faced Nihilus. Unable to devour the Exile as he had so many others, Nihilus was finally defeated. With Telos safe, the Exile pursued Kreia.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (Battle of Telos IV)

---

Also Beni,

Jedi were caught unaware on Katarr. The attack came as a surprise.

Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order's Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr's lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (The Conclave at Katarr)

Nihilus likely positioned his flagship at a distance from where he would not be spotted.

Not sure codex entries for Obsidan characters can really be considered credible.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not sure codex entries for Obsidan characters can really be considered credible.
I won't exercise this double-standard.

Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia does not presents Nihilus in a very impressive light either, but people still use it for citations.

Also, I see nothing wrong in codex entries of SWTOR. Most of the stuff in them is accurately described.

Not a double-standard at all, I use no codex entries for KotOR 2 characters in my respect threads.
It's lame to accuse some of your main supporters and allies of these boards as "exercising double-standards."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.

Do you believe that Nihilus can devour the Force on any planet in the galaxy from any distance?

If that were the case, why would he even bring his fleet to Telos or Katarr?

He was over a planetary diameter away from Telos. Compared to Katarr, where he was in shitting distance.



Better evidence than anything else you've provided, but it's from a game not developed by the makers of Kotor 2, and is too vague to be empirical anyway.

Why is it so hard to believe that when people tout Nihilus' ability to devour entire planets as an example of his power, that he can just sort of do that? Why would they make a huge deal about him if he needed a lot of prep to do so?



Your assertion is contradicted by the actual scan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.
Most Force Powers have range-limits; if you've ever watched the movies or played the games, or read the books, then you've seen this.

Without a range limit, Nihilus would be able to Drain any planet in the Galaxy, without moving his fleet.

Obviously, this is not the case.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet,
"Prepared" refers to more than just one thing:

Remember that Nihilus was moving his fleet into position, to get within range of Telos, and to make sure that he was not intercepted by Republic and Mandalorian warships and forces.

His preparation for the assault would have included keeping his fleet protected while traveling into range of Telos.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony.
His ship has no Stealth capabilities and other ships in the system would see a large fleet pulling in.

Your point actually lends credence to the fact that he struck quickly and needed to, in order to maintain the element of surprise.

- Also, the sentence simply says that they didn't know he was en route to the Colony.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Better evidence than anything else you've provided, but it's from a game not developed by the makers of Kotor 2, and is too vague to be empirical anyway.

Given the zillion fingers jammed in the Star Wars pie, it's unreasonable to exclude evidence from one source about another on the basis that it doesn't come from the creators of the original.

The excerpt is only vague in that it doesn't explicitly assign a timeframe to how long it would take Nihilus to unleash the attack, but it does indeed undermine the notion that the technique is effortless or instantaneous.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why is it so hard to believe that when people tout Nihilus' ability to devour entire planets as an example of his power, that he can just sort of do that? Why would they make a huge deal about him if he needed a lot of prep to do so?

I'm not unsympathetic to this appeal {I've used similar ones for Sidious}, but the fact that some limits are imposed on Nihilus doesn't exactly neuter him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given the zillion fingers jammed in the Star Wars pie, it's unreasonable to exclude evidence from one source about another on the basis that it doesn't come from the creators of the original.

The excerpt is only vague in that it doesn't explicitly assign a timeframe to how long it would take Nihilus to unleash the attack, but it does indeed undermine the notion that the technique is effortless or instantaneous.



I'm not unsympathetic to this appeal {I've used similar ones for Sidious}, but the fact that some limits are imposed on Nihilus doesn't exactly neuter him.

agreed

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't get the range argument. Nihilus can perform Force Drain on planetary scale and he somehow have problem with range?

We are talking about Force powers, not missiles.

Interestingly:

The Jedi Exile, cut off from the Force, went in search of the remaining Jedi Masters and, perhaps, an explanation. But the Exile's mentor, Kreia, had other plans–when the Exile finally gathered the Masters, Kreia slew them all. As the Exile recovered from this encounter, Kreia deliberately enticed the terrible Darth Nihilus to the planet Telos Four. Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet, and Nihilus's dreadnought, the Ravager, was met by the Republic Navy and Mandalorian forces. During the battle, the Exile boarded the Ravager and faced Nihilus. Unable to devour the Exile as he had so many others, Nihilus was finally defeated. With Telos safe, the Exile pursued Kreia.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (Battle of Telos IV)

---

Also Beni,

Jedi were caught unaware on Katarr. The attack came as a surprise.

Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order's Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr's lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice.

Source: SWTOR Codex Entry (The Conclave at Katarr)

Nihilus likely positioned his flagship at a distance from where he would not be spotted. Range has always been at integral part of how Force powers work, hence why you can't Force push someone from a mile away.

That statement is definitive proof of anything, and could be read as Nihilus preparing to consume the planet, but being interrupted by the Republic fleet.

The second contradicts the notion that he was lying in plain sight for hours, assuming he hid out of range is not only conjecture, but makes little sense. It assumes he can build up the necessary energy for the drain, and then maintain that state for the time it takes to maneuver into position. If that were indeed the case then Nihilus could merely have prepared prior to entering the Telos system, and insta-drained the planet immediately after exiting hyperspace.

(Which for the record, he made no attempt to distance himself from.)

He did not, therefore you theory is flawed. A good rule of thumb in this respect is that the simplest argument, that makes the fewest assumptions, is the most likely to be correct. In this case I feel your argument is more complex, and relies on assumption.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It assumes he can build up the necessary energy for the drain, and then maintain that state for the time it takes to maneuver into position. If that were indeed the case then Nihilus could merely have prepared prior to entering the Telos system, and insta-drained the planet immediately after exiting hyperspace.

You got everything right, except for this.

We've already nailed down the fact that no Canon Source classifies Nihilus' Drain as a ritual - therefore it isn't one.

But yes, all my other points which you mirrored, are spot on.

At certain points I am reminded of just how much of an old-fogey I really am.

I'm waiting patiently for your rebuttal to my post to you, S_W_LeGenD.

I'll be back later to see if you've decided to concede defeat.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
You got everything right, except for this.

We've already nailed down the fact that no Canon Source classifies Nihilus' Drain as a ritual - therefore it isn't one.

But yes, all my other points which you mirrored, are spot on. Well that's just it, only a ritualistic power would achieve that kind of effect, which only makes it less likely that he can build up this energy before hand and maintain it.

It has to be a ritual. In normal circumstances he can't drain even a Mandolorian.

Originally posted by Arhael
It has to be a ritual. In normal circumstances he can't drain even a Mandolorian. Which was either because of game mechanics, or because he was beneath Nihilus notice.

I suspect it is a mixture, that Canderous didn't actually participate in the fight and kept his distance, far away enough for Nihilus to merely ignore him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which was either because of game mechanics, or because he was beneath Nihilus notice.

I suspect it is a mixture, that Canderous didn't actually participate in the fight and kept his distance, far away enough for Nihilus to merely ignore him.

It certainly wasn't the latter, given that Nihilus deigned to stun him.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
Most Force Powers have range-limits; if you've ever watched the movies or played the games, or read the books, then you've seen this.

Without a range limit, Nihilus would be able to Drain any planet in the Galaxy, without moving his fleet.

Obviously, this is not the case.
Emperor demonstrated the capability to drain his subjects from lightyear distances.

Obviously this Force power is not limited by range as per its nature but that Nihilus have limits.


Originally posted by Bigblue442
"Prepared" refers to more than just one thing:

Remember that Nihilus was moving his fleet into position, to get within range of Telos, and to make sure that he was not intercepted by Republic and Mandalorian warships and forces.

His preparation for the assault would have included keeping his fleet protected while traveling into range of Telos.
That word still leaves room for my argument that Nihilus's Force Drain feats on mass-scale are not instantaneous.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
His ship has no Stealth capabilities and other ships in the system would see a large fleet pulling in.

Your point actually lends credence to the fact that he struck quickly and needed to, in order to maintain the element of surprise.

- Also, the sentence simply says that they didn't know he was en route to the Colony.
Evidence to the contrary is apparent from Telos IV related developments.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well that's just it, only a ritualistic power would achieve that kind of effect

It's too bad that according to Canon, it's not a ritual.

Originally posted by Arhael
It has to be a ritual.

Canon says no.



Originally posted by Arhael
In normal circumstances he can't drain even a Mandolorian.

He never tried to drain a Mandalorian.

He did however, easily drain numerous Jedi Knights and Masters with no trouble at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor demonstrated the capability to drain his subjects from lightyear distances.

Which means nothing, as his drain and Nihilus's drain are different.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Obviously this Force power is not limited by range as per its nature but that Nihilus have limits.
Wrong. You need to do your research before you open your mouth.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Scrnshot4.jpg

Nihilus has mastered his technique, which means the limit has nothing to do with Nihilus, but with the technique.


Great job on destroying your own argument regarding whether or not Nihilus had to move into Telos' range, by the way.

You're making this too easy for me. There's no sport in it, now.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

That word still leaves room for my argument that Nihilus's Force Drain feats on mass-scale are not instantaneous.

Canon says it wasn't a ritual, so no.

As you admitted up there, Nihilus had to move his ship into range to drain the planet - so his preparation came from moving his ship.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Evidence to the contrary is apparent from Telos IV related developments.

Well ante-up, Kid. Show me your evidence.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
Which means nothing, as his drain and Nihilus's drain are different.
Your argument isn't convincing.

What you are not getting is that Nihilus have demonstrated the potential to expand his drain on enormous scale, targeting lot of individuals in the process.

Therefore, I don't get the distance argument. For further elaboration, lets say that Nihilus is in New York and unleashes his Force Drain powers from there, and his powers eventually reach China, targeting lot of individuals in the process.

So how is the distance an issue? My understanding is that Nihilus is not performing a Force wave, he locks-on the signatures of other Force-users and this is how his powers approach them from considerable distance.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
Wrong. You need to do your research before you open your mouth.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Scrnshot4.jpg

Nihilus has mastered his technique, which means the limit has nothing to do with Nihilus, but with the technique.
And he still have trouble with the distance factor? He shouldn't, right?

Originally posted by Bigblue442
Great job on destroying your own argument regarding whether or not Nihilus had to move into Telos' range, by the way.

You're making this too easy for me. There's no sport in it, now.
I think that you are not getting my argument.

Originally posted by Bigblue442
Canon says it wasn't a ritual, so no.

As you admitted up there, Nihilus had to move his ship into range to drain the planet - so his preparation came from moving his ship.
I see contradictions in canon. This is why I brought Telos IV related event into this debate, to dispel the myth that Nihilus can target individuals on planetary-scale instantaneously, something is amiss.

My argument is that Nihilus needs some time to gather power to unleash his powers on planetary-scale. Of-course, this matter is not properly elaborated or explored officially, otherwise we won't be having this debate.

Also, if I am not wrong, Nihilus siphons energy from individuals of his fleet as well, right? Perhaps this is how Nihilus gathers sufficient power to unleash an attack on planetary-scale when he feels the need to.