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In Battle of the Gods, Goku gets embarrassed in Super Saiyan 3 by Beerus. Yet, an enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was able to do some damage to Beerus. This is insane. SSJ2 Vegeta must be A LOT more powerful than SSJ3 Goku in this instance. Why?

My theory: Just like Goku trained fiercely to make his super saiyan form his norm form during the Cell Games saga, makes me think Vegeta did this too. He made SSJ2 feel like his base form, as he works with what he has. Goku is spoiled by SSJ3, and never thought to master the two other forms. That plus Vegeta's rage at his wife being slapped, boosted his power to new levels, as for the first time in his life, he achieved power through care for someone else.

Did S3Goku ever hit Beerus? As in square on, not blocked in any way. We could assume that the punch which blew a chunk in Kai's planet could have inflicted slight damage to a casual, holding back Beerus.

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
In Battle of the Gods, Goku gets embarrassed in Super Saiyan 3 by Beerus. Yet, an enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was able to do some damage to Beerus. This is insane. SSJ2 Vegeta must be A LOT more powerful than SSJ3 Goku in this instance. Why?

My theory: Just like Goku trained fiercely to make his super saiyan form his norm form during the Cell Games saga, makes me think Vegeta did this too. He made SSJ2 feel like his base form, as he works with what he has. Goku is spoiled by SSJ3, and never thought to master the two other forms. That plus Vegeta's rage at his wife being slapped, boosted his power to new levels, as for the first time in his life, he achieved power through care for someone else. Yet SSJ vegeta still lost 1 on 1 Which confuses me. In the movie it is said that he surpassed Goku BUT they dont specify weather its ssj2 Goku ssj3 Goku or Goku as a whole.

From a real-world point of view: Akira gave Vegeta a few seconds of glory just to appease die-hard fans who were pissed that he had been consistently portrayed as borderline fodder ever since the Saiyan saga. I think it really is that simple.

From an in-universe point of view: it seems that when Vegeta became hyper-enraged, he basically fast-burned all of his latent ki at once, which allowed for a massive, but momentary, boost in power.

Originally posted by Galan007
From an in-universe point of view: it seems that when Vegeta became hyper-enraged, he basically fast-burned all of his latent ki at once, which allowed for a massive, but momentary, boost in power. and yet at the end of the film they talk as if Vegeta is now stronger than goku for 2 seconds then hes back to normal. Once he unlocked that hidden ki shouldn't his KI be raised from then on forward?

I think Roshi was just talking about Vegeta surpassing Goku at that particular moment.

We'll never know either way, though, as Goku's SSJ2 & SSJ3 transformations won't be seen again, according to Akira himself.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think Roshi was just talking about Vegeta surpassing Goku at that particular moment.

We'll never know either way, though, as Goku's SSJ2 & SSJ3 transformations won't be seen again, according to Akira himself. i wonder how thats going to work out. Does Goku somehow RE-discover the power of kaioken?

No. Remember, Goku now has access to his full spectrum of Godly ki in his base and SSJ states. That said, SSJ2-SSJ3 have simply become superfluous.

It might be easier to understand if you liken it to Mystic Gohan... He was able to access every iota of power at his disposal in his base form, therefore further SSJ states were no longer needed.

Broly solos both.

(Gohan went SSJ in GT, though).

Akira didn't actually say further SSJ levels give no returns, did he? Or why even go SSJ1, as he did in BoG?

Sounded more like he was saying higher forms are far less energy efficient.

Sure, he could get more mileage out of base and SSJ, but an amps an amp. Dropping SSJ2-3 because they're exhausting is kind of bad reasoning, when you might need the power.

Before Vegeta got angry he did better against Beerus and Mystic Gohan. You know why? Because Akira doesn't know how to write a solid story. Even if Vegeta got angry why would that make him stronger? He is always angry. And if a SSJ2 can be stronger than a SSJ3 then why would Goku need to go SSJ3? Also in the Manga Mystic Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But clearly in this movie Gohan was weaker. You could say he didn't train right? But in the Manga when Gohan tried to stop Buu from hatching and realized that all the years he didn't train made him weak. He stated he would never allow that to happen again. But then he slacks off on his training?

Mystic Gohan is an oddball indeed.

By real-world logic, he should've been able to retain all of his strength post-DBZ.


I think Galan is correct in his assumption that Vegeta had a sudden surge of power at that instance, momentarily surpassing SSJ3 Goku.
I doubt it would happen again.

So hold on. Is SSJ3 Goku the strongest Z-fighter now?

Originally posted by cdtm
Sure, he could get more mileage out of base and SSJ, but an amps an amp. Dropping SSJ2-3 because they're exhausting is kind of bad reasoning, when you might need the power.

It's not about transforming, Goku is literaly more powerful once he controls better his regular SSJ form, all the other transformations are just short cuts, powerbumps that only matter when you can't fully control SSJ.

Originally posted by Bentley
It's not about transforming, Goku is literaly more powerful once he controls better his regular SSJ form, all the other transformations are just short cuts, powerbumps that only matter when you can't fully control SSJ.

Key words are "Powered up variation".

From the translation, it's hard to tell if he's saying a mastered SSJ is more powerful/as powerful then a SSJ2-3. If there was zero benefit, then obviously you stick with the forms that waste less energy.

But if SSJ2-3 are still stronger then even a fully mastered SSJ, does it make sense to drop them completely?

Not if he's getting matched or overpowered.

Originally posted by cdtm
But if SSJ2-3 are still stronger then even a fully mastered SSJ...

Well, the gist is they aren't. That was my point anyways.

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, the gist is they aren't. That was my point anyways.

That would explain away Vegeta's power up.

Maybe Toriyama wasn't fan pandering, and did that to prove SSJ2-3 are obsolete.

We've seen characters who didn't need SSJ3 (Mystic Gohan and Super Vegetto come to mind), so Toriyama dropping the SSJ2 & 3 forms isn't a big deal to me.