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The incarnations:
RotJ Sidious, RotJ Vader, TFU II Starkiller, Revan Vitiate, Revan Reborn and Emperor Malgus

Setting: Death Star, Sidious's throne room

Who wins?

Team 1

Damn good thread.

Team 1 has better feats and accolades all around. Sidious > Vitiate, Starkiller > Revan, Vader > Malgus.

Team 1 in a good/close fight IMO.

Closest one might be Prime Malgus vs Starkiller, imo.

Malgus is a better duelist, more durable, but Starkiller is more powerful and maybe faster.

Not sure who'd win between them.

Sidious can oneshot Vitiate though

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Damn good thread.

Team 1 has better feats and accolades all around. Sidious > Vitiate, Starkiller > Revan, Vader > Malgus.
Lmfao. Vitiate > Sidious, Revan > Starkiller, Malgus = Vader.

Originally posted by carthage
Closest one might be Prime Malgus vs Starkiller, imo.

Malgus is a better duelist, more durable, but Starkiller is more powerful and maybe faster.

Not sure who'd win between them.

Sidious can oneshot Vitiate though

Starkiller's Force powers are just far too great for Malgus. I think the closest match would be Vader/Malgus.

Sidious definitely takes Vitiate, though. No doubt about that.

Sidious and Vitiate don't even really compare, tbh, unless we are discussing DE Sidious.

RotJ Sidious is comparable to DE Sidious.

Anyway Team 1 in a close fight.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
RotJ Sidious is comparable to DE Sidious.

Anyway Team 1 in a close fight.

Not that it matters, anyway, since this is Revan!Vitiate. ROTJ!Sidious has his number pretty soundly.

Ah, Revan!Vitiate, didn't see that. I would put them equals.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ah, Revan!Vitiate, didn't see that.

We know. Your wank got the better of you again and no one bothered to correct you; it was more amusing to watch you flounder.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I would put them equals.

No one cares.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZiL_dpWKHo&t=02s

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Starkiller's Force powers are just far too great for Malgus. I think the closest match would be Vader/Malgus.

Sidious definitely takes Vitiate, though. No doubt about that.
I concur.

Vader vs. Revan or Malgus are closest fights, probably.

Starkiller has the craziest force feats here and is a quite solid duelist (in contrats to what many might think).

Vitiate loses to Sidious.

Yeah, team 1 wins.

Good thread, though. I'd like Skillz and Sidious to take this one. It would be a good debate.

lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
lol.

Either Skillz or S66 would hand you your ass tbh. Hell, even LeGenD recently surpassed you on the Ladder of Reason.

Definitely.
---
Vitiate has no limits.

Sidious would immediately blitz Vitiate at the beginning of the fight.

Its not really up for debate who'd win between those two.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Starkiller's Force powers are just far too great for Malgus. I think the closest match would be Vader/Malgus.



Malgus is the better duelist out of the two, and while Starkiller is above Malgus in power- Marek trying to win a duel against him would be his undoing in my opinion. I can see Starkiller winning a majority based on his force abilities though

mmm

POWER! Unnnnnlimiiiiiited POWWWWWEEEER!

(Team 1)

Split. Depends on how quickly Revan and Malgus handle Vader/Starkiller and how Sidious handles Vitiate. Vitiate as he is depicted in Revan is not Sidious' superior, or equal, for that matter.

Vader and Starkiller would defeat Revan and Malgus, IMO. It'd be a very close fight, but they'd still win. Starkiller has even greater lightning/TK power than Malgus does, and similar aggression and skill whereas Vader vs Revan has been rehashed countless times.

And yeah, Sidious would take Vitiate; though I expect that if it goes anything like Sidious vs Talzin, the fight would also be cutting it close.

Revan should be able to take either Vader or Starkiller, IMO. Emperor Malgus would be incredibly difficult for either to put down individually, as well. That is, if they can. I agree about Sidious/Vitiate, though.

You see Malgus as inferior to this incarnation of Revan? Intriguing.

Indeed I do. Revan's basically been cemented as 2nd best of the era.

I would then put the collective force of the Dread Masters, Darth Malgus, and Darth Nox the next step below Revan.

I think I giggled more at you putting Nox above Jadus/Hero/First Son/etc. than Revan>6 Dread Masters.

I have 3.0 Revan > Malgus, but this is pre-SWTOR.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think I giggled more at you putting Nox above Jadus/Hero/First Son/etc. than Revan>6 Dread Masters.

I have 3.0 Revan > Malgus, but this is pre-SWTOR.
Nox with the combined strength of all those spirits is insane. Did you see his raw power demonstrations against Thanaton?
That being said, I'm putting Revan above Dread Masters because he can resist the attack that all their main attacks stray off from.
All their fear, mental domination, corruption, and illusion attacks should be able to be resisted by Revan, who did so for 300 years.
That being said, a strict comparison between the collective's power and then Revan's, I'm giving it to the guys who made Oricon their *****.

Originally posted by carthage
Sidious would immediately blitz Vitiate at the beginning of the fight.

Its not really up for debate who'd win between those two.



Malgus is the better duelist out of the two, and while Starkiller is above Malgus in power- Marek trying to win a duel against him would be his undoing in my opinion. I can see Starkiller winning a majority based on his force abilities though
Stop trolling. We all know Vitiate has amazeballs saber skills because he ate a planet once, with the help of 8,000 other people.

I love you

Not sure, I only, you know, played the game.

@Rest: Poor, confused boy.

Stronger incarnations of team 2 would make this one harder to decide but team 1 wins this imo.

Any version of Sidious, from ROTS on up, is noticeably greater than Vitiate. He's a more powerful force user and a far greater warrior. Better feats, accolades, etc. DE Sidious can destroy starfleets and kill entire worlds with a single force attack, that requires him a mere thought. The DE endnotes states that Sidious is a dark side nexus powerful enough to rip apart the fabric of space/time, which is a quote that's quite literal, and not hyperbolic. Vitiate doesn't come close in power, nor does any hyperbolic quote regarding his power beat that.


As for the other four, they are all pretty close, IMO. Though SK is the most powerful based on feats, followed by Vader. And I've been hearing about some ridiculous force feats from Vader, such as killing groups of force users with single force attacks (wish I knew the sources, but haven't had much time to research).

Other than Ant (who thinks Revan is on par with Yoda), LeGenD (who thinks Vitiate is on par with the One's of Mortis), and psmith (who's only here to lie about his life to try to impress people he doesn't know and who don't care), I'd like to for someone to point out if there is anything wrong with my post. I'm all ears.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Other than Ant (who thinks Revan is on par with Yoda)
lol wut

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Any version of Sidious, from ROTS on up, is noticeably greater than Vitiate. He's a more powerful force user and a far greater warrior. Better feats, accolades, etc. DE Sidious can destroy starfleets and kill entire worlds with a single force attack, that requires him a mere thought. The DE endnotes states that Sidious is a dark side nexus powerful enough to rip apart the fabric of space/time, which is a quote that's quite literal, and not hyperbolic. Vitiate doesn't come close in power, nor does any hyperbolic quote regarding his power beat that.


As for the other four, they are all pretty close, IMO. Though SK is the most powerful based on feats, followed by Vader. And I've been hearing about some ridiculous force feats from Vader, such as killing groups of force users with single force attacks (wish I knew the sources, but haven't had much time to research).

Other than Ant (who thinks Revan is on par with Yoda), LeGenD (who thinks Vitiate is on par with the One's of Mortis), and psmith (who's only here to lie about his life to try to impress people he doesn't know and who don't care), I'd like to for someone to point out if there is anything wrong with my post. I'm all ears.
10/10 post.

Good to see logic and reason on display around here.

Revan Reborn(TOR) and Emperor Malgus would make this far closer but team 1 wins solidly.

Originally posted by AncientPower
10/10 post.

Good to see logic and reason on display around here.

Revan Reborn(TOR) and Emperor Malgus would make this far closer but team 1 wins solidly.
Um, this is Revan Reborn and Emperor Malgus...

But other than that

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3914870-7873024960-38920.jpg

This is the scan you're hearing about, 66. The provider suspiciously added that the Jedi were "presumably killed" by the push, but it seems like a load of shit to me personally. Still not a bad feat, though.

EDIT: Wow, that image was huge, linking.
EDIT 2: Oh, it looks like he threw them off the cliff. I guess that killed them, but it's not exactly what it sounds like.

Yes ladies and gentlemen, Vader is a badass.

I thought this was novel Vitiate and Revan, if this is TOR Revan then Vader has someone on team 2 besides Vitiate to be strongly concerned about. Starkiller and Sidious are still equal or stronger(respectively) than anyone on team 2 however.

Vitiate > Starkiller.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I thought this was novel Vitiate and Revan, if this is TOR Revan then Vader has someone on team 2 besides Vitiate to be strongly concerned about. Starkiller and Sidious are still equal or stronger(respectively) than anyone on team 2 however.
Agreed.

On the other hand, Sidious can take down either opponent from team 1.

Fights involving Starkiller/Vader vs. Revan/Malgus are all very close IMHO, but I give the edge to the former duo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Any version of Sidious, from ROTS on up, is noticeably greater than Vitiate. He's a more powerful force user and a far greater warrior. Better feats, accolades, etc. DE Sidious can destroy starfleets and kill entire worlds with a single force attack, that requires him a mere thought. The DE endnotes states that Sidious is a dark side nexus powerful enough to rip apart the fabric of space/time, which is a quote that's quite literal, and not hyperbolic. Vitiate doesn't come close in power, nor does any hyperbolic quote regarding his power beat that.

I disagree on ROTS Sidious being stronger than Vitiate in the force. As an all out warrior though, he is superior like you said. DE Sidious is truly as powerful as you depict him here and his feats/accolades are superior than Vitiate's but why do you think Vitiate's accolades are hyperbolic?
He may not have many battle showings but that's due to his position in the EU. Sidious was a member of RoT. He was expected to be the full package as he had to be a scholar, a warrior, a sorcerer and a cunning puppet master at the same time which helped him become the ultimate sith. As much as he liked to use others to do his work for him, Sidious ultimately had to get involved in events directly as a force user. Vitiate, on the other hand had thousands of force users serving him and he ruled them in seclusion. These circumstances made Vitiate less of a warrior and less interested in melee combat as he didnt believe he would need it. Sidious looked down upon lightsaber usage too but the difference is, he needed it no matter how powerful he was. I believe Sidious wouldn't be this good with the saber if he was born in TOR era.

Also, due to the circumstances he was in, Vitiate also didnt find himself in situations were he had to display his full raw power as almost no one could match him including HoT because that encounter doesn't count for obvious reasons. We only know that whether it is the Dread Masters or powerful jedi strike teams or even entire dark councils, Vitiate managed to stand tall above all in such competitive era for 1400 years.





SWTOR Revan is the strongest here imo but I can't avoid being biased when it comes to StarKiller. This is a lesser version of Revan too which doesn't help team 2.



I personally disagree with a few minor details. However, on 1vs1, ROTS Sidious is a more lethal character than any version of Vitiate so far and this isnt Vitiate's most powerful incarnation. Revan and Malgus won't be in any position to assist him and so team 1 should win here.

Even ROTS!Sidious has the feats and accolades to edge out Revan!Vitiate in the Force. Not saying it's a stomp, but the advantage is there.

How so? Vitiate's Force Lightning is demonstrably superior.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How so? Vitiate's Force Lightning is demonstrably superior.

Nah. Sithisis has Sidious disintegrating a Sith wyrm. Revan!Vitiate isn't known to have generated that sort of power with his lightning.

That's not remotely as impressive as being infinitely more powerful then something that can turn Meetra and Scourge to ash, or obliterate Nyriss' barrier and destroy her. Sorry.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not remotely as impressive as being infinitely more powerful then something that can turn Meetra and Scourge to ash, or obliterate Nyriss' barrier and destroy her. Sorry.

Given that the former are unimpressive and the latter only appears impressive due to her ability to dominate the former, I'm unimpressed. Sidious wins. Sorry.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even ROTS!Sidious has the feats and accolades to edge out Revan!Vitiate in the Force. Not saying it's a stomp, but the advantage is there.

Oh I wasn't thinking of the Novel Vitiate there. It depends on how much you choose to acknowledge the dark council purges for Vitiate's feats imo.

Even though this isn't SWTOR Vitiate, I'm not as sure as you are about ROTS Sidious' superiority in the force. Mainly due to 2 reasons:

1) I don't believe any sith/jedi is powerful enough to casually one-shot an entire dark council but people underestimate Vitiate via prep factor a bit too much. Prep doesn't turn every top tier into a being that powerful so the council purges hint Vitiate's shocking level of power.

2) Vitiate was an unusually prodigious force user. He dedicated himself to studying the force in order to obtain even more power than he naturally gained(which was most likely IMMENSE already) which led him to the Natemha ritual. As you know, he spent a millennia after that doing almost nothing but studying the force ever further, participating in rituals that amped his power and constantly drained servants that dedicated their lives to boost his power. This is a crucial detail because you too have admitted that even a great being like Sidious wasn't able to grow stronger a lot during PT cause he had to focus on other occupations. The novel Vitiate comes after all that so there is no reason to doubt his position as a challenger against ROTS Sidious here. At least in the force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that the former are unimpressive and the latter only appears impressive due to her ability to dominate the former, I'm unimpressed. Sidious wins. Sorry.

How is it unimpressive? The ability to overpower and incinerate two beings of their power is very impressive.

...Neph, use your head. facepalm

Originally posted by Sinious
1) I don't believe any sith/jedi is powerful enough to casually one-shot an entire dark council but people underestimate Vitiate via prep factor a bit too much. Prep doesn't turn every top tier into a being that powerful so the council purges hint Vitiate's shocking level of power.

We've seen/read about Force adepts wielding comically disproportionate power via ritual and/or Force nexus. What's more, you're creating a false dilemma. Vitiate does wield "a shocking level of power." I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean he's more powerful than Sidious, who also wields a "shocking level of power."

Originally posted by Sinious
2) Vitiate was an unusually prodigious force user.

Agreed. But Sidious isn't?

Originally posted by Sinious
He dedicated himself to studying the force in order to obtain even more power than he naturally gained(which was most likely IMMENSE already) which led him to the Natemha ritual. As you know, he spent a millennia after that doing almost nothing but studying the force ever further, participating in rituals that amped his power and constantly drained servants that dedicated their lives to boost his power. This is a crucial detail because you too have admitted that even a great being like Sidious wasn't able to grow stronger a lot during PT cause he had to focus on other occupations. The novel Vitiate comes after all that so there is no reason to doubt his position as a challenger against ROTS Sidious here. At least in the force.

The problem that even Neph, one of Vitiate's biggest fanboys, acknowledged is that Vitiate's feats and accolades really don't align with his origins. Meanwhile, Sidious's accolades and feats are actually disproportionately higher than his origins. Sidious has more to his name after 90+ years than Vitiate does in 1400+ and rituals to enhance his power. Both are prodigies, but Sidious is demonstrably much more so.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...Neph, use your head. facepalm

I suggest you use yours. Even if we limit Meetra and Scourge's power, being able to overpower the defenses of (at worst) 2 high-level Jedi Masters and still have enough power to incinerate (burn to ash) them is extremely impressive.

As opposed as I am to using Nyriss' nexus feats to imply strength, Vitiate is definitely strong enough to pose serious trouble to Sidious. On the flipside Sidious wins in every regard despite this. He's just that much better, Sidious was always more powerful than anyone that used the Dark Side.

Except the Son.

And Nihilus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I suggest you use yours. Even if we limit Meetra and Scourge's power, being able to overpower the defenses of (at worst) 2 high-level Jedi Masters and still have enough power to incinerate (burn to ash) them is extremely impressive.

Using the Dark Side =/= being the Dark Side.

Of all Force USERS Sidious is on his own pedestal as a Dark Side master.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We've seen/read about Force adepts wielding comically disproportionate power via ritual and/or Force nexus.


Then why don't every dark sider constantly use it before combat to defeat their enemies that they normally can't? Like Malgus against the protags or Darth Maul against Kenobi and Jinn etc. There are many examples where a force adept has the chance to prepare for their battles yet doesn't bother at all.



Not denying any of that.



How so? We know how powerful Meetra and Scourge are and so we know how powerful Nyriss is too which of course allows us to understand how freaking powerful Vitiate is based on his FLS domination of Revan.



We're not comparing their peak versions though. Besides, I'm not questioning Sidious' superiority in this regard.

Originally posted by Sinious
Then why don't every dark sider constantly use it before combat to defeat their enemies that they normally can't? Like Malgus against the protags or Darth Maul against Kenobi and Jinn etc. There are many examples where a force adept has the chance to prepare for their battles yet doesn't bother at all.

You're dealing with a mass franchise characterized with hilarious inconsistency, no different from the comic book world {though not quite as bad}. The fact of the matter is, though, disproportionate feats from Force users via prep/nexus is nothing new.

Originally posted by Sinious
Not denying any of that.

Then why bring it up?

Originally posted by Sinious
How so? We know how powerful Meetra and Scourge are and so we know how powerful Nyriss is too which of course allows us to understand how freaking powerful Vitiate is based on his FLS domination of Revan.

Because as powerful as that is, that's still not reflective of a super-prodigy who drained 8 thousand Sith Lords and studied the dark side for more than a millennium.

Originally posted by Sinious
We're not comparing their peak versions though. Besides, I'm not questioning Sidious' superiority in this regard.

No, but appealing to Vitiate's prodigious abilities vis a vis Sidious is moot when Sidious is demonstrably the superior prodigy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're dealing with a mass franchise characterized with hilarious inconsistency, no different from the comic book world {though not quite as bad}. The fact of the matter is, though, disproportionate feats from Force users via prep/nexus is nothing new.



And so unless the person is stated to have prep to boost his power, I don't think its fair to assume they had prep or at least needed it immensely as a certainty like its proven by a canon source.




Because YOLO.

No, I brought it up to explain how insanely impressive Vitiate's background is but as you have stated below, its kinda too much for any sith which is why I questioned Sidious' superiority over him a couple months ago in the first place. I guess Sidious is simply that good which is a huge turn on for me btw.



Fair enough.



Which is what I said. Read above to see why I mentioned Vitiate's background.

Originally posted by Sinious
And so unless the person is stated to have prep to boost his power, I don't think its fair to assume they had prep or at least needed it immensely as a certainty like its proven by a canon source.

It's absolutely fair to assume as much when there is no evidence to suggest that the character could replicate the results at whim and on neutral ground or when the feat itself is wildly inconsistent with the character's other feats.

That's been the default position by any reasonable debater in these parts for years and it doesn't matter what character's involved. I apply the same exacting standards for Sidious.

My position is much more reasonable than the opposite. And it's universally applied.

Originally posted by Sinious
Because YOLO.

No, I brought it up to explain how insanely impressive Vitiate's background is but as you have stated below, its kinda too much for any sith which is why I questioned Sidious' superiority over him a couple months ago in the first place. I guess Sidious is simply that good which is a huge turn on for me btw.



I'm pleased. His Imperial Majesty's dominance is indeed a natural aphrodisiac.

Originally posted by Sinious
Fair enough.



Originally posted by Sinious
Which is what I said. Read above to see why I mentioned Vitiate's background.

My point is that, when comparing Sidious to Vitiate, it's a moot point to reference Vitiate's background as a prodigy. He is indeed. But Sidious is demonstrably more so, achieving comparable feats and accolades at the very least without having to leech the power of thousands of Sith Lords and studying the Force for a fraction of the time.

Team 2 in a good fight.

Emperor Vitiate is known to smoke Strike Teams of powerful Force-users so he shouldn't have trouble with Sidious.

Emperor Malgus can perform maelstrom and have insane raw power. He shouldn't have trouble against either Starkiller or Vader.

Revan (Reborn) can also tackle either Starkiller of Vader.

Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father's you fate you will.

Which Emperor?

The one who actually ruled the galaxy.

Well, Yoda only met one of them. :P

Originally posted by NewGuy01
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3914870-7873024960-38920.jpg

not exactly what it sounds like.


True.

Thanks for the scan, though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My point is that, when comparing Sidious to Vitiate, it's a moot point to reference Vitiate's background as a prodigy. He is indeed. But Sidious is demonstrably more so, achieving comparable feats and accolades at the very least without having to leech the power of thousands of Sith Lords and studying the Force for a fraction of the time.




Sidious, even as of ROTS, just packs a greater punch in combat. More Potent lightning and TK. Vitiate is capable of holding him off if it comes down to a battle similar to Sidious vs Talzin, as NewGuy said, but Palpatine will overpower him. However, if Sidious manages to close the distance fast enough (we all know how fast his is), Vitiate doesn't stand a chance.


@Sinious, I didn't say all Vitiate's quotes were hyperbolic, but quotes such as, "Godly" and "lightning infinitely greater than Nyriss's" are hyperbolic; not to mention the lightning quote came from Revan, referring to a nexus amped Vitiate. Sidious's quote from the DE endnote is literal, and it beats even Vitiate's exaggerated quotes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@Sinious, I didn't say all Vitiate's quotes were hyperbolic, but quotes such as, "Godly" and "lightning infinitely greater than Nyriss's" are hyperbolic; not to mention the lightning quote came from Revan, referring to a nexus amped Vitiate. Sidious's quote from the DE endnote is literal, and it beats even Vitiate's exaggerated quotes.

Oh well obviously he is not a god and I think the word infinity is just used to depict how much more powerful Vitiate was compared to any other sith of his era and even for Revan, he was too much. Nobody, not even the Ones of Mortis has infinite power. But I get what you mean.

Yes, I agree that DE Sidious is above Vitiate in that regard but imo, if any other sith comes close to DE Sidious regarding force powers, its the Sith Emperor.

Well Vitiate and Sidious are on the same level as each other
and Malgus, Revan, Starkiller and Vader are also on the same level as each other

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. Sithisis has Sidious disintegrating a Sith wyrm. Revan!Vitiate isn't known to have generated that sort of power with his lightning.

Vitiate oneshotted the entire Dark Council

Team 1 probably still wins.

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
Vitiate oneshotted the entire Dark Council
I'm not familiar with the context of that fight. Proof?

Team 1 soundly. Sidious is the greatest with of all time and vader is most likely better than revan especially by this time, then star killer is definitely more powerful than malgus. So with that team 1 takes this competition easily.