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* These are: The Phantom Menace era Sidious and Revan Vitiate.

Setting: Vjun, the place where Yoda and Dooku fought.

Who wins?

Sidious can still speed blitz, and Vitiate still needs time to get his rituals going. Sidious wins.

Sidious is demonstratively superior in every regard.

Sidious didn't blitz Talzin. Vitiate takes this.

Not sure whats the difference between Novel Vitiate and SWTOR Vitiate. Same could be said for TPM Sidious and ROTS Sidious though. Leaning Vitaite due to his performance against Revan atm.

Swtor Vitiate has been continuously getting stronger since he beat Revan. To an unknown degree, but it should be noticeable imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To an unknown degree

Exactly.

Well 300 years worth of constant improvement should be noticeable in my books.

TPM? Bring DE.

Emperor will destroy Sidious, in a good fight by the way.

Zidiouz have hiz light zaber abilitiez.... But The problem he iz over blood luzted when he fight.... And vitiate ztill the zuperio force cazter.....

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well 300 years worth of constant improvement should be noticeable in my books.
Constant improvement of an unknown amount with no actual showings of improvement doesn't really mean anything. You can't notice something that isn't there.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Constant improvement of an unknown amount with no actual showings of improvement doesn't really mean anything. You can't notice something that isn't there.
Emperor smoked some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order inside a space station. Improvement is apparent.

Originally posted by Sinious
Not sure whats the difference between Novel Vitiate and SWTOR Vitiate. Same could be said for TPM Sidious and ROTS Sidious though. Leaning Vitaite due to his performance against Revan atm.

TPM!Sidious has no feats to examine, though we know he's already stronger than any of Bane's order perhaps barring Plagueis himself. Given the demands and constraints of his political office and weaving a galaxywide conspiracy, I think it's safe to assume Sidious wasn't consistently training in the Sith arts at this time. Still pretty hard to quantify.

If he's around ROTS!Sidious level {and I see no reason to believe that he's not}, he should take Vitiate. Comparable command of the Force and vastly superior skill.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
TPM!Sidious has no feats to examine, though we know he's already stronger than any of Bane's order perhaps barring Plagueis himself. Given the demands and constraints of his political office and weaving a galaxywide conspiracy, I think it's safe to assume Sidious wasn't consistently training in the Sith arts at this time. Still pretty hard to quantify.


I agree that he most likely didn't have much time to train. He probably grew in power though which is what matters most against an opponent like Vitiate.



Do you think Vitiate is not around ROTS Sidious level?

Originally posted by Sinious
I agree that he most likely didn't have much time to train. He probably grew in power though which is what matters most against an opponent like Vitiate.

He may indeed have.

Originally posted by Sinious
Do you think Vitiate is not around ROTS Sidious level?

I do. I think he possesses comparable power, but that Sidious enjoys a tremendous skill advantage.

It's my belief that time usually leads to a natural maturation of ability, whether or not significant training takes place. Even if only on further contemplation of the Force and more time exploring your power. Besides, Sidious may not have been fencing or fighting but I doubt he sat idle. Whether he was meditating on the darkside or sharpening his abilities less overtly I find it likely he pursued methods of improvement during his Chancellorship.

Oh I'm sure he took whatever opportunities were afforded to him. I just don't think those opportunities were abundant.

He did gain some experience during TCW too.

He hasn't seemed to have problems finding time for his Sidious persona in the movies, TCW or Sithisis.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He hasn't seemed to have problems finding time for his Sidious persona in the movies, TCW or Sithisis.

Which has nothing to do with gaining power. In fact those occupations are exactly why we assume he didnt have much time to train.

My contention is that if he had the ability to freely allow time for one area of his Sith persona, then why not also have time to study ancient texts or meditate or perform some rituals or think of new ways to be really, really evil.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor smoked some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order inside a space station. Improvement is apparent.
Prove he couldn't do that before. Then you would have to show the actual strength of completely featless characters. Go on, I'll wait for the tidal wave of hype you have saved on your hard drive that's back up by not a single showing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My contention is that if he had the ability to freely allow time for one area of his Sith persona, then why not also have time to study ancient texts or meditate or perform some rituals or think of new ways to be really, really evil.

Issuing/relaying orders via private communication as Sidious is much less extreme than conducting dark side rituals a la Sithisis or "Sacrifice" or conducting Sith field trips to kick ass "The Lawless" or Son of Dathomir. I agree that opportunities existed, I just doubt he had time or opportunity to study consistently.

I dont like Vitiate so im going to baisly choose Sidz (even thought i dont like him either)

Good fight tbh.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Prove he couldn't do that before. Then you would have to show the actual strength of completely featless characters. Go on, I'll wait for the title wave of hype you have saved on your hard drive that's back up by not a single showing.
Emperor have the feat of defeating a Strike Team earlier so I cannot say much in the context of combat prowess. However, it is pointed out in multiple sources that Emperor continued to grow in power throughout his span of existence by utilizing Force Drain related talents against his subjects and/or individuals in general.

Growth in power is visible with other actions in the following manner:

Emperor became more powerful then the greatest Lords of the ancients such as Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord at the culmination of Nathema ritual. 20 years later, Emperor arrived in Dromund Kaas and began to hone his talents in the dark side even further, eventually managing to alter the environment of the entire planet with great exertion (Dromund Kaas is an enormous planet with diameter of around 22000 kms). At certain point, Emperor confronted a Strike Team of powerful Sith Lords and smoked it. Later on, Emperor broke the duo of Jedi heroes Revan and Malak with just his telepathic abilities in a confrontation with them (Revan was already the most powerful Jedi of the Order during this time). Some years later, after the events of KoTOR II, Revan believed that Emperor could perform Nathema ritual on his own during his time, and exceeded Meetra's imagination regarding the potential of a Force-user. After the events of Revan, Emperor increased his safe-guard by shifting his essence into other hosts (Voices) at will, literally destroyed the minds of some (Jedi) opponents with just his telepathic abilities, and expanded his influence on many worlds by transforming thousands of individuals into Children whom he dispersed on galactic scale including within the Jedi Order itself. Emperor had been literally multi-tasking with his activities on an enormous scale since the events of Revan. As of SWTOR, Emperor had fully prepared himself for his most ambitious ritual with which he would consume the entire galaxy successfully and had mastered the dark side to its fullest.

Originally posted by Sinious
Do you think Vitiate is not around ROTS Sidious level?


I think ROTS Sidious is noticeably more power than Vitiate. Just not to the extent that he'd ragdoll him. I think Vitiate can put up a fight in a force contest before being overpowered. Vitiate had to conjure up his most powerful attack to overpower Revan (on a DS nexus); whereas Sidious proved that he could have easily ended both Maul and Savage at the same time, and has manhandled Dooku from across the galaxy (both feats off a nexus).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor have the feat of defeating a Strike Team earlier so I cannot say much in the context of combat prowess. However, it is pointed out in multiple sources that Emperor continued to grow in power throughout his span of existence by utilizing Force Drain related talents against his subjects and/or individuals in general.

Growth in power is visible with other actions in the following manner:

Emperor became more powerful then the greatest Lords of the ancients such as Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord at the culmination of Nathema ritual. 20 years later, Emperor arrived in Dromund Kaas and began to hone his talents in the dark side even further, eventually managing to alter the environment of the entire planet with great exertion (Dromund Kaas is an enormous planet with diameter of around 22000 kms). At certain point, Emperor confronted a Strike Team of powerful Sith Lords and smoked it. Later on, Emperor broke the duo of Jedi heroes Revan and Malak with just his telepathic abilities in a confrontation with them (Revan was already the most powerful Jedi of the Order during this time). Some years later, after the events of KoTOR II, Revan believed that Emperor could perform Nathema ritual on his own during his time, and exceeded Meetra's imagination regarding the potential of a Force-user. After the events of Revan, Emperor increased his safe-guard by shifting his essence into other hosts (Voices) at will, literally destroyed the minds of some (Jedi) opponents with just his telepathic abilities, and expanded his influence on many worlds by transforming thousands of individuals into Children whom he dispersed on galactic scale including within the Jedi Order itself. Emperor had been literally multi-tasking with his activities on an enormous scale since the events of Revan. As of SWTOR, Emperor had fully prepared himself for his most ambitious ritual with which he would consume the entire galaxy successfully and had mastered the dark side to its fullest.
That's what I thought. You have absolutely nothing to establish the power level of any member of the strike team besides the HoT. Nothing to refute the fact that the trully powerful can't be mindraped and it takes prep, and nothing to establish Vitate's actual powerlevel or his growth. Moving on then.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I think ROTS Sidious is noticeably more power than Vitiate. Just not to the extent that he'd ragdoll him. I think Vitiate can put up a fight in a force contest before being overpowered. Vitiate had to conjure up his most powerful attack to overpower Revan (on a DS nexus); whereas Sidious proved that he could have easily ended both Maul and Savage at the same time, and has manhandled Dooku from across the galaxy (both feats off a nexus).


in the force:
Sidious > Vitiate

in a duel:
Sidious >>> Vitiate

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's what I thought. You have absolutely nothing to establish the power level of any member of the strike team besides the HoT. Nothing to refute the fact that the trully powerful can't be mindraped and it takes prep, and nothing to establish Vitate's actual powerlevel or his growth. Moving on then.
So you are focused on the feats of the members of the Jedi Strike Team only?

Tol Braga have some feats in the game; he Force-pushed HoT mid-air and ripped apart a large structure from its foundation which he threw towards HoT in an attempt to crush the opponent beneath it. Both are telekinetic actions.

Braga also have history of defeating a Dark Council member in an extremely lengthy confrontation (arguably the longest known yet, spanning 3 days).

The other two have significant hype and managed to reach Emperor's position inside the Space Station after fighting through its defenses much like HoT (which happened off-screen). One of them (Sedoru) was very good at reading the minds of others as far as his known talents are concerned.

Originally posted by Stigma


in the force:
Sidious > Vitiate
Prove this.

It's been proved alreeady.

EDIT: Interestingly, you overlooked Sidious being much better in a dueling scenarion.

I guess you agree then that Sidious wipes the floor with Vitiate in a fight?

Originally posted by Stigma
lol prove Vitiate is better in a duel
Great.

You mean in martial terms or holistic?

EDIT: I see that your edited your remark.

Proved by whom?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Go on, I'll wait for the tidal wave of hype you have saved on your hard drive that's back up by not a single showing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor have the feat of defeating a Strike Team earlier so I cannot say much in the context of combat prowess. However, it is pointed out in multiple sources that Emperor continued to grow in power throughout his span of existence by utilizing Force Drain related talents against his subjects and/or individuals in general.

Growth in power is visible with other actions in the following manner:

Emperor became more powerful then the greatest Lords of the ancients such as Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord at the culmination of Nathema ritual. 20 years later, Emperor arrived in Dromund Kaas and began to hone his talents in the dark side even further, eventually managing to alter the environment of the entire planet with great exertion (Dromund Kaas is an enormous planet with diameter of around 22000 kms). At certain point, Emperor confronted a Strike Team of powerful Sith Lords and smoked it. Later on, Emperor broke the duo of Jedi heroes Revan and Malak with just his telepathic abilities in a confrontation with them (Revan was already the most powerful Jedi of the Order during this time). Some years later, after the events of KoTOR II, Revan believed that Emperor could perform Nathema ritual on his own during his time, and exceeded Meetra's imagination regarding the potential of a Force-user. After the events of Revan, Emperor increased his safe-guard by shifting his essence into other hosts (Voices) at will, literally destroyed the minds of some (Jedi) opponents with just his telepathic abilities, and expanded his influence on many worlds by transforming thousands of individuals into Children whom he dispersed on galactic scale including within the Jedi Order itself. Emperor had been literally multi-tasking with his activities on an enormous scale since the events of Revan. As of SWTOR, Emperor had fully prepared himself for his most ambitious ritual with which he would consume the entire galaxy successfully and had mastered the dark side to its fullest.

laughcry

Originally posted by ares834
laughcry
Those are facts, not hype. And he didn't clarify his query before that post.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Great.

You mean in martial terms or holistic?

EDIT: I see that your edited your remark.

Proved by whom?
I did, at first glance I thought you quoted my whole post.

By people making good arguments in favor of Sidious. I've seen nothing that suggests Vitiate eclipses Sidious in the force.

And, importantly, even if we assume they are equals in the force, Sidious still has a tremendous edge in a dueling scenario.

Originally posted by Stigma
I did, at first glance I thought you quoted my whole post.

By people making good arguments in favor of Sidious. I've seen nothing that suggests Vitiate eclipses Sidious in the force.

And, importantly, even if we assume they are equals in the force, Sidious still has a tremendous edge in a dueling scenario.

Originally posted by Stigma
I did, at first glance I thought you quoted my whole post.

By people making good arguments in favor of Sidious. I've seen nothing that suggests Vitiate eclipses Sidious in the force.

And, importanlty, even if we assume they are equals in the force, Sidious still has a tremendous edge in a dueling scenario.
Eclipsing is not the point. However, it shall be understood that Vitiate can harm and eventually eliminate Sidious with his powers, should it come down to combat between the two, he is just that good. If people assume that Sidious will be immune to Vitiate's powers, they are not being rational and realistic.

Sidious have advantage in the sense of having exceptional martial abilities. However, Vitiate fights safely by relying on his overwhelming powers to get the job done, this strategy have served him well for an enormous span of time.

Not trying to rule out a lightsaber score on Sidious's part but it is a remote possibility.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Eclipsing is not the point. However, it shall be understood that Vitiate can harm and eventually eliminate Sidious with his powers, should it come down to combat between the two, he is just that good. If people assume that Sidious will be immune to Vitiate's powers, they are not being rational and realistic.

Sidious have advantage in the sense of having exceptional martial abilities. However, Vitiate fights safely by relying on his overwhelming powers to get the job done, this strategy have served him well for an enormous span of time.

Vitiate isn't immune to Sidious's powers either and Sidious can eliminate him either with Force powers or his lightsaber.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate isn't immune to Sidious's powers either and Sidious can eliminate him either with Force powers or his lightsaber.
I have yet to see a Force power that works on Vitiate (he have "corporeal immortality" besides formidable defenses, something that Plagueis wanted) so it is unclear what powers can harm him. Sidious, as of this point, does not have Force Storm (Wormhole) and Maelstrom powers either.

Sidious's best chances are with a lightsaber and a bit of luck factor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Eclipsing is not the point.
Um, it is precisely the point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, it shall be understood that Vitiate can harm and eventually eliminate Sidious with his powers,
Vitiate has the power to do harm, no doubt. I don't think anyone argues he's impotent.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
should it come down to combat between the two, he is just that good.
Just not better than Sidious biscuits

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If people assume that Sidious will be immune to Vitiate's powers, they are not being rational and realistic.
Again, I don't think anyone argues that Sidious is immune to Vitiate's attacks.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious have advantage in the sense of having exceptional martial abilities. However, Vitiate fights safely by relying on his overwhelming powers to get the job done, this strategy have served him well for an enormous span of time.
So... Vitiate's usual strategy is to rely on his overwhelming force powers..., a strategy that will not come into play in a fight with Sidious, for Vitiate does not have a big advantage (if at all) in the force.

So what's Vitiate's strategy for fighting someone close/superior in force power? He goes for a duel?

Which brings me to the next point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not trying to rule out a lightsaber score on Sidious's part but it is a remote possibility.
When Sidious closes the gap and forces a duel, it's over for Vitiate.

Originally posted by Stigma
Um, it is precisely the point.
One does not have to literally eclipse Sidious in powers to overwhelm him.

You understand the meaning of eclipse?

Originally posted by Stigma
Vitiate has the power to do harm, no doubt. I don't think anyone argues he's impotent.
Good. Now escalate this to kill as well for a more realistic assessment.

Originally posted by Stigma
Just not better than Sidious biscuits
Well, good enough, is enough.

Originally posted by Stigma
Again, I don't think anyone argues that Sidious is immune to Vitiate's attacks.
People tend to forget this, specially Sidious's fans.

Originally posted by Stigma
So... Vitiate's usual strategy is to rely on his overwhelming force powers..., a strategy that will not come into play in a fight with Sidious, for Vitiate does not have a big advantage (if at all) in the force.
Why not?

You are assuming that the two are standing inches apart? Even if this is the case, their is no guarantee that Sidious will score a lightsaber hit outright. Vitiate is just that good, he never ended-up blitzed in a fight even from the most competent swordsmen in generations who also have actual blitz kills under their belt.

Originally posted by Stigma
So what's Vitiate's strategy for fighting someone close/superior in force power? He goes for a duel?

Which brings me to the next point.
Superiority is not proven.

No matter what, Vitiate will try to fight safely and he is not likely to permit the opponent to approach striking distance. The opponent risks getting ruined with repeated attempts to close the gap under the barrage of super-powers of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Stigma
If Sidious closes the gap and forces a duel, it's over for Vitiate.
If he does so.

I do not rule out this possibility but it is a remote one (requires a bit of luck).

Watching tempest position his minions to strike is amusing.

One does no have to be Tempest's minion to see that Vitiate pales in comparison with the Emperor.

But one has to be tempest's minion to actively assert it against other SWTORians, such as LeGenD. You cannot escape your destiny!

One does entertain the notion that you might be onto something.

I know all tbh

What number am I thinking of right now?

@ LeGenD
TBH I disagree with a lot of what you've said, but meh. I'm don't fancy lenghty debates anymore, let's agree to disagree.
Judging by our posting history neither of us will convince the other.

GG

Sidious blitzes him

No Vitiate is not a Kolar, Fisto or Tiin in combat, he has no feats with a lightsaber that remotely compare to any of them nor any speed feats.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No Vitiate is not a Kolar, Fisto or Tiin in combat, he has no feats with a lightsaber that remotely compare to any of them nor any speed feats.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I think ROTS Sidious is noticeably more power than Vitiate. Just not to the extent that he'd ragdoll him. I think Vitiate can put up a fight in a force contest before being overpowered. Vitiate had to conjure up his most powerful attack to overpower Revan (on a DS nexus); whereas Sidious proved that he could have easily ended both Maul and Savage at the same time, and has manhandled Dooku from across the galaxy (both feats off a nexus).

Tbf Revan is quite more powerful than Maul or Savage in the force. I think what's impressive about manhandling Dooku is that Sidious could actually choke someone from across the galaxy. I doubt that Dooku put up a resistance to his master as he was being punished and standing up to his master's discipline wouldn't end well for him.

Vitiate easily crushing the jedi strike team makes me believe that Vitiate is above ROTS Sidious in the force tbh. Thats why I have Vitiate above the likes of Caedus and Plagueis in all out fights even though Vitiate lacks top tier melee combat showings. Vitiate is simply that good in the force.

Sidious takes this. If Revan can casually bat aside Vitiate's lightning with his saber then Sidious will do so easily (or dodge it). Unlike Revan, Sidious will never be stupid enough to try and redirect a fully charged Force Storm (and even presuming he did he wouldn't get charred). Vitiate is also exceedingly arrogant (getting in close to finish Revan when he could have easily vaporized him, charging at the HoT even when he was deflecting his lightning). Sidious can take advantage of this and even feign weakness (as he did with Starkiller) to lure Vitiate in close and then take him down before he can react.

Originally posted by Sinious
Tbf Revan is quite more powerful than Maul or Savage in the force. I think what's impressive about manhandling Dooku is that Sidious could actually choke someone from across the galaxy. I doubt that Dooku put up a resistance to his master as he was being punished and standing up to his master's discipline wouldn't end well for him.

Vitiate easily crushing the jedi strike team makes me believe that Vitiate is above ROTS Sidious in the force tbh. Thats why I have Vitiate above the likes of Caedus and Plagueis in all out fights even though Vitiate lacks top tier melee combat showings. Vitiate is simply that good in the force.

The Jedi Strike Team was unprepared for his sheer strength, just like Revan, Scourge and Surik were. They assumed quite arrogantly that Vitiate wasn't powerful enough to take them all and showed a clear lack of a defensive strategy.

Darth Caedus was ambushed by Battle Master Katarn's team and he still effortlessly Force stomped them.

Darth Plagueis was even moreso dominant against Maladian Assassins whilst severely injured and not to mention an army of warriors.

Vitiate is not alone in dominating very powerful opponents.

Now regardless I do believe Vitiate, Caedus and Plagueis to be very close in power to one another.

Plagueis or Caedus would LOLSTOMP that strike team in a duel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Jedi Strike Team was unprepared for his sheer strength, just like Revan, Scourge and Surik were. They assumed quite arrogantly that Vitiate wasn't powerful enough to take them all and showed a clear lack of a defensive strategy.

Darth Caedus was ambushed by Battle Master Katarn's team and he still effortlessly Force stomped them.

Darth Plagueis was even moreso dominant against Maladian Assassins whilst severely injured and not to mention an army of warriors.

Vitiate is not alone in dominating very powerful opponents.

Now regardless I do believe Vitiate, Caedus and Plagueis to be very close in power to one another.

I didnt argue against anything what you said here did I?

Originally posted by carthage
Plagueis or Caedus would LOLSTOMP that strike team in a duel.

which is exactly what Vitiate did.

It wasn't a duel he had to gather power and take them out with his force abilities. A duel would be if e fought them with his lightsaber, but we all know how shit he is with a saber. None of them were impressive either in terms of feats, even Maul could probably kill them without much difficulty

Originally posted by carthage
It wasn't a duel he had to gather power and take them out with his force abilities. A duel would be if e fought them with his lightsaber, but we all know how shit he is with a saber.

Its still a stomp though.



lol

Originally posted by Sinious
I didnt argue against anything what you said here did I?



which is exactly what Vitiate did.

Yet you stated that Vitiate is superior in combat because of his ability to do so. Yet both of the Sith you used as an example have done the same and more.

The biggest thing Sidious has against him here is that he is not fully matured yet as a Sith. He jumps in power between now and ROTS, jumps again to ROTJ, and jumps to his zenith in DE.

But Palpatine's relative inexperience here isn't nearly enough for Vitiate to take advantage, as Vitiate is, at best, his equal in the force (mostly due to Sidious not reaching his full potential yet...kinda like the Anakin we see is NOTHING like Anakin's full potential...), but Vitiate's still vastly inferior with a saber.

So in the unlikely event Vitiate can stalemate an immature Sidious in the Force, he'll still get killed in the lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yet you stated that Vitiate is superior in combat because of his ability to do so. Yet both of the Sith you used as an example have done the same and more.

Neither of them could dominate the jedi strike team as easily as Vitiate did with their force powers only imo.

Caedus telekinetically ragdolled the ambush team with little sign of effort on his behalf.

Which ambush team?

Kyle and co.

But.... he didn't ragdoll them.

He nearly killed Kyle with a Force Pull.

Originally posted by Sinious
Neither of them could dominate the jedi strike team as easily as Vitiate did with their force powers only imo.
Are you going to establish power levels for them then?

Revan doesn't have top tier speed feats like Fisto does nor does Hero of Tython. Vitiate is lacking completely in the areas of lightsaber combat and force augmentation. He is a scholar, he always has been, he always will be.

You're not taking into account the circumstances of the fight or how much he dominated them with his Force displays. Infact as soon as the Jedi saw what happened to Katarn they all but gave up. Their attempt to get the jump on him failed miserably to.

Oh and your 'dismantling' is literally just debating, stick to quote dumping because arrogance doesn't suit you.

Emperor Vitiate is not significantly more powerful by any means, Caedus has displayed far greater esoteric knowledge than even Luke Skywalker and is already stated to be much more powerful than Darth Vader.

Plagueis completely outmatches him in telekinesis, healing, augmentation and even rituals. Read the Plagueis novel because it is made indirectly but abundantly clear that Plagueis is the strongest Sith yet.

The Maladian Assassins I refer to were one of the deadliest cults ever and despite being literally half alive Plagueis literally tore them to pieces with his telekinetic power.

It is extremely impressive and if you take any context into account then you'll see how heavily circumstances were in the Jedi's favor.

Oh and I'm not a fan at all so don't start an imbecilic fanboyism argument.

Your point is moot AP. Plageuis have not been hyped in encyclopedic mediums with the express quote that he is the strongest. The emperor have slayed many mooks and walked Into a lightsaber, he is surely a competent warrior.

Originally posted by Selenial
Your point is moot AP. Plageuis have not been hyped in encyclopedic mediums with the express quote that he is the strongest. The emperor have slayed many mooks and walked Into a lightsaber, he is surely a competent warrior.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan doesn't have top tier speed feats like Fisto does nor does Hero of Tython. Vitiate is lacking completely in the areas of lightsaber combat and force augmentation. He is a scholar, he always has been, he always will be.
No shit.

Scourge is explicitly stated to be an EXPERT swordsman, able to move at blinding speeds, and is known to dodge dueling attacks with just his physical movements, but still found himself outmatched by an opponent who does not have comparable hype in speed (i.e. Nyriss). Notice where I am getting with this?

You evaluate speed not just with raw statements but performance in combat situations. Revan have found himself in many situations where speed would have mattered and he have history of outdueling competent warriors. Statements wise, he is stated to have lightning-fast reactions (in one paragraph) and instantaneous reactions (in another paragraph). His entire confrontation with Emperor ended in few seconds and a lot took place in such short span.

As for HoT, he have history of outright blitzing Sith Warriors and outdueling some of the most competent duelists in history. He is just that fast and capable.

Your arguments are baseless again which isn't surprising.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're not taking into account the circumstances of the fight or how much he dominated them with his Force displays. Infact as soon as the Jedi saw what happened to Katarn they all but gave up. Their attempt to get the jump on him failed miserably to.
I have read the entire fight just a while back and I can easily expose your bias. Don't tempt me.

I have already provided a summary. Read it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and your 'dismantling' is literally just debating, stick to quote dumping because arrogance doesn't suit you.
No, I am exposing your lies and disinformation. I have pointed out to you before that you should make a habit of double-checking information before you participate in a debate. You have not heeded that advice yet.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Emperor Vitiate is not significantly more powerful by any means, Caedus has displayed far greater esoteric knowledge than even Luke Skywalker and is already stated to be much more powerful than Darth Vader.
You think that your subjectivity is credible? Emperor is known to have mastered the dark side to its highest degree officially and he is likely to have knowledge and command of lot of stuff that we have not seen him demonstrating. Still, Emperor have feats that outstrip Caedus's by miles but no one can compete with a fan's subjectivity. Emperor achieved corporeal immortality, altered the environment of an entire planet (i.e. Dromund Kaas), created a powerful nexus of the dark side (on Dromund Kaas), literally broke powerful Jedi with telepathic abilities during combat situations, even destroyed the minds of some Jedi with telepathic abilities, switched bodies (Voices), developed alternate dark personas in thousands of individuals (Children) that he planted across the galaxy to do his bidding, drained many individuals simultaneously to increase his power on consistent basis, conducted unknown sorcery related experiments on frequent basis, overshadowed and humbled millions of Sith, soundly defeated some of the most powerful Jedi of the mythos, dominated Strike Teams of powerful opponents on short notice, eliminated rebellious Dark Council members by himself several times, disintegrated tough droids, collapsed structures, and gave Yoda-Ventress treatment to Sith at times. Holistically, Emperor is far more tested then Caedus in combat situations and also much more accomplished and dominant in comparison, the disparity between the power of the two is obvious. Caedus have his great showings but you are hyping him way beyond he seems to be.

Don't tempt me to start a critical evaluation of Caedus, this won't end well for you. Caedus is well-respected and you should not try to jeopardize this image with your deceptions.

Also, show me the evidence of Caedus being stated to be much more powerful then Vader.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Maladian Assassins I refer to were one of the deadliest cults ever and despite being literally half alive Plagueis literally tore them to pieces with his telekinetic power.
Blah blah

Republic Havok Squad is stated to be capable of taking down even Sith, they are that heavily trained, armed and armored.

Didn't stop Malgus from having a field day with them.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It is extremely impressive and if you take any context into account then you'll see how heavily circumstances were in the Jedi's favor.
I have read about it. And I am disappointed by the wank that you gave it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Plagueis completely outmatches him in telekinesis, healing, augmentation and even rituals. Read the Plagueis novel because it is made indirectly but abundantly clear that Plagueis is the strongest Sith yet.
Plagueis have some decent showings but he isn't on level of Emperor.

Emperor achieved corporeal immortality that Plagueis craved for. A minor hint.

Though, Plagueis > Caedus as well. I give you this.

Originally posted by Selenial
Your point is moot AP. Plageuis have not been hyped in encyclopedic mediums with the express quote that he is the strongest. The emperor have slayed many mooks and walked Into a lightsaber, he is surely a competent warrior.
I am sorry that your KoTOR II champions turned out be inadequate in comparison to (real) champions of the TOR era. Must've hit the nerve.

My god this is actually beautiful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am sorry that your KoTOR II champions turned out be inadequate in comparison to (real) champions of the TOR era. Must've hit the nerve.

What? I'm genuinely confused.

Originally posted by Selenial
What? I'm genuinely confused.
Your mocks are lame.

Originally posted by Sinious
I didnt argue against anything what you said here did I?
Let me give you a hint of the so-called stomping of Caedus. The description of the battle spanned several pages in the novel, it was so short.

Originally posted by Sinious
which is exactly what Vitiate did.
Emperor actually stomped. And some of the best of the Jedi order.

If you think any of that compares to Fisto's feats with Force Augmentation then you are poorly informed. Fisto has moved faster than B2s could analyse and fought on par with Grievous whom is stated to fight at lightning speeds.

'Your arguments are baseless' if this is your usual manner of debating then no wonder you aren't taken seriously. Put this attitude in a YouTube video where you'll recieve similar levels of maturity.

Except you know for the fact that he was still using the Force to successfully hammer them, a team of Jedi. Arguing semantics is just arguing for arguing's sake.

'Lies and disinformation' you have a funny way of spelling the word 'generalising'. I'm not going to heed the advice of someone whom belittles his debating partners at every opportunity for not sharing his blatant biases.

Literally everything you just stated is nothing in a combat situation compared to taking on the greatest lightsaber duelist and most powerful Force User in the mythos and performing alarmingly well.

A performance which is far superior to DE Sidious' loss to a far inferior version of the same person. Before you make the misinformed claim that Luke wasn't all in it, he was clearly into it and wanted to take Caedus alive but not once could he incapacitate him because Caedus played to his own strengths.

Glad you conceded, continue.

It isn't wank it is merely a generalisation.

'Decent showings' superior to Vitiate's with the same powers, yes.

That must mean Sion > All right? Emphatic logic on display there LeGenD, I'll nominate you for a Lifetime Achievement Award for that one.

@AncientPower

Do not worry, I exposed your disinformation in another thread as a reference. And I will dismantle your Caedus's hype as well, in a new thread. You just wait.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your mocks are lame.

Everyone else find them funny.

'Destroyed' as in belittled, insulted and handwaved everything I said? Sure you take that victory kiddo.

Just a BTW, Raskta Lsu successfully interrupted Darth Bane's Force Lightning, that had just obliterated Valenthyne's own Force Barrier. So your entire argument that Lsu gets ragdolled by Younglings with the Force is the only thing that was baseless in that thread.

Oh and I couldn't care less, Caedus defeated a team of powerful Jedi and showed his dominance with the Force several times throughout the fight.

You go ahead and argue semantics because really I have no desire to satiate your incessant need to cram TOR wank down everyone's throats.

I am scared though, truly. What's next? You'll scare me with your kill/death ratio on Call of Duty as well? Honestly you are too easy.

Is there enough encyclopedic wank to disprove the entire forum?

Originally posted by AncientPower
He nearly killed Kyle with a Force Pull.

Thats not even close to being what we're talking about. No ragdoll, no dominating an entire team with the Force.

Plagueis or Caedus would lolstomp the team with the force similarly. Its really not that great of a feat, not to mention either fighter is immensely faster and more skilled than Vitiate

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are you going to establish power levels for them then?

I don't quite follow

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am sorry that your KoTOR II champions turned out be inadequate in comparison to (real) champions of the TOR era. Must've hit the nerve.

lol

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't quite follow

You and the rest of Vitiate's more enthusiastic supporters keep claiming that "X can dominate this strike team like Vitiate." Well if you're going to claim that, you have to actually establish the power levels of said strike team members for this statement to mean remotely anything. Fact remains, you can't because the only thing they have going for them is being called, "The most skilled and powerful Jedi in the galaxy," a statement that isn't even true.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You and the rest of Vitiate's more enthusiastic supporters keep claiming that "X can dominate this strike team like Vitiate." Well if you're going to claim that, you have to actually establish the power levels of said strike team members for this statement to mean remotely anything. Fact remains, you can't because the only thing they have going for them is being called, "The most skilled and powerful Jedi in the galaxy," a statement that isn't even true.
You played the game?

They were the galaxy's most powerful Jedi, stated on even loading pages. Official rankings are not likely to condone your personal thoughts.

Also, I have pointed out known feats of the characters:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So you are focused on the feats of the members of the Jedi Strike Team only?

Tol Braga have some feats in the game; he Force-pushed HoT mid-air and ripped apart a large structure from its foundation which he threw towards HoT in an attempt to crush the opponent beneath it. Both are telekinetic actions.

Braga also have history of defeating a Dark Council member in an extremely lengthy confrontation (arguably the longest known yet, spanning 3 days).

The other two have significant hype and managed to reach Emperor's position inside the Space Station after fighting through its defenses much like HoT (which happened off-screen). One of them (Sedoru) was very good at reading the minds of others as far as his known talents are concerned.

The maximum flexibility that can be exercised in this thread is that these Jedi are among the best.

Originally posted by carthage
Plagueis or Caedus would lolstomp the team with the force similarly. Its really not that great of a feat, not to mention either fighter is immensely faster and more skilled than Vitiate
Agreed.

Tons of characters would own that strike team, like: Luke, Durron, Yoda, Sidious, Starkiller, Dooku, Mace, Vader, Prime Malgus, Prime Revan, Prime Krayt, Kun, Traya, Talzin, maybe Nihilus... the list goes on.

Originally posted by Stigma
Agreed.

Tons of characters would own that strike team, like: Luke, Durron, Yoda, Sidious, Starkiller, Dooku, Mace, Vader, Prime Malgus, Prime Revan, Prime Krayt, Kun, Traya, Talzin, maybe Nihilus... the list goes on.
Yes, they were mere chickens including HoT. Every well-known character will own them. Evidence to the contrary doesn't matters because personal beliefs take precedent. Keep up the objectivity.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, they were mere chickens including HoT. Every well-known character will own them. Keep up the objectivity.
Thanks.

I'm glad we're on the same page.

BTW I didn't include your sneaky, yet silly edit.

Originally posted by Stigma
Thanks.

I'm glad we're on the same page.

BTW I didn't include your sneaky, yet silly edit.

Sidious blitz him