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* This is SoD Maul, TCW Season 5 Savage and Revan Vitiate. All others are at their best.

Setting: Dathomir

Who wins?

This won't end well for the Dathomirians.

While Talzin has the edge over Vitiate on Dathomir, the HoT is above Maul and Satele is a full tier above Savage imo. Additionally the HoT can likely hold back Talzin whereas Maul and Savage cannot hold back Vitiate. The only way team Dathomir can win is if Talzin has a doll prepped.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Additionally the HoT can likely hold back Talzin whereas Maul and Savage cannot hold back Vitiate.

Yes, this is an important factor.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
While Talzin has the edge over Vitiate on Dathomir, the HoT is above Maul and Satele is a full tier above Savage imo. Additionally the HoT can likely hold back Talzin whereas Maul and Savage cannot hold back Vitiate. The only way team Dathomir can win is if Talzin has a doll prepped.

Team 1 should win comfortably. Chances are that neither Hot nor Satelle will be able to counter Savage's strength. And Talzin beats Vitiate of course.

Originally posted by Arhael
Team 1 should win comfortably. Chances are that neither Hot nor Satelle will be able to counter Savage's strength. And Talzin beats Vitiate of course.
Wut?

Satele held Malgus at bay with one hand, hard-pressed by the latter on the ground at this moment, and still had the strength to knock down a gigantic tree with gesture from another to facilitate breakage of the deadlock. And she is also incredibly fast by Force-user standards.

Chances are that Satele will WTFpwn Savage, HoT will comfortably beat Maul and Emperor will be done and dusted with the witch till then.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
While Talzin has the edge over Vitiate on Dathomir, the HoT is above Maul and Satele is a full tier above Savage imo. Additionally the HoT can likely hold back Talzin whereas Maul and Savage cannot hold back Vitiate. The only way team Dathomir can win is if Talzin has a doll prepped.

My only qualm is with the notion that Satele is a full tier above Savage. She's no Dooku.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My only qualm is with the notion that Satele is a full tier above Savage. She's no Dooku.
She is better then both, yes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She is better then both, yes.

She's better than Savage, she's not better than Dooku.

The notion of Satele even being above Savage to begin with makes my skin crawl.

I'll concede that she has a skill advantage with the relatively unpolished Savage.

Savage has better overall fighting ability, going by feats. He would treat her like he treated Plo or Ventress, or how Malgus treated her.

Originally posted by ILS
Savage has better overall fighting ability, going by feats. He would treat her like he treated Plo or Ventress, or how Malgus treated her.

Indeed? mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Indeed? mmm Indeed.

And you would be willing to defend that view against the SWTORetards?

My resolve is unwavering. I will dance on the corpses and dine on the flesh of all SWTORetards who stand between Savage and his path to a respectable and well deserved standing as a combatant on versus boards!

I am well pleased. This is your crusade, my son. Go forth and wage war.

Originally posted by ILS
My resolve is unwavering. I will dance on the corpses and dine on the flesh of all SWTORetards who stand between Savage and his path to a respectable and well deserved standing as a combatant on versus boards!

i agree with this guy besides many many SWTORetards/SWfans alike seem to forget the Satele "beat" Malgus with outside help from drum roll please *drums roll* JACE FU****** MALCOM!!!! its in the trailer black and white. Malgus practically won the lightsaber duel and could have won the overall fight but the trooper had to intervene, why do people over look that very simple detail did people just skip the part where Jace came to her aid and blew a grendae in his face............and gave satele the time she needed to "win" then clicked the play button to malgus's Defeat.

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
i agree with this guy besides many many SWTORetards/SWfans alike seem to forget the Satele "beat" Malgus with outside help from drum roll please *drums roll* JACE FU****** MALCOM!!!! its in the trailer black and white. Malgus practically won the lightsaber duel and could have won the overall fight but the trooper had to intervene, why do people over look that very simple detail did people just skip the part where Jace came to her aid and blew a grendae in his face............and gave satele the time she needed to "win" then clicked the play button to malgus's Defeat. I like this chap. He gets it.

Team 1 easily.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll concede that she has a skill advantage with the relatively unpolished Savage.


I agree, but Savage is skilled enough to go toe to toe, and even defeat some of the most skilled duelist of his time. I think his physical strength and force power should more than make up for his disadvantage in skill, and give him the win.

Not seeing what "skill advantage" Satele has, losing to pre-prime Malgus and beating featless characters are inferior showings to Savage beating Plo and fighting evenly with Ventress.

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
i agree with this guy besides many many SWTORetards/SWfans alike seem to forget the Satele "beat" Malgus with outside help from drum roll please *drums roll* JACE FU****** MALCOM!!!! its in the trailer black and white. Malgus practically won the lightsaber duel and could have won the overall fight but the trooper had to intervene, why do people over look that very simple detail did people just skip the part where Jace came to her aid and blew a grendae in his face............and gave satele the time she needed to "win" then clicked the play button to malgus's Defeat.
I am fully aware of what transpired during the confrontation between Satele Shan and Malgus on Aldeeran but I find the sheer magnitude of ignorance demonstrated by some members amusing concerning the events of the Hope cinematic. Many mistakenly assume Malgus to be lacking during this time. I just had a lengthy discussion about Malgus's skills and power as of this point in a recent thread, but some comments in this thread seem to indicate that PTRetards tend to be lot more biased then TORRetards in general.

Satele did end-up disarmed by Malgus but she performed admirably against him nonetheless. However, people not just tend to overlook Satele's impressive showings in this battle but also mistakenly assume that just because Malgus succeeded at disarming her, every well-known Tom and Harry would also.

Satele is evidently on a much higher level in competence, command of the Force, and raw power aspects as of Hope then most in the mythos.

The entire cinematic is small so people have limited knowledge of developments of this battle on Aldeeran. The larger picture is that Satele and Leener arrived on Aldeeran and collectively turned the tide of this battle after inflicting heavy losses on the Sith forces with their powers and combat abilities.

NOTE: Events in the bracket shown in the Hope cinematic. Nonetheless, Satele have demonstrated talents that are seldom witnessed, strength that is seldom duplicated, and competency of premium combatants in a single event.

Malgus survived the disaster due to his immense power and ability to take punishment and proceeded to fight more Jedi before retreating from the planet. This confrontation is described in the literature and it contains some of the most impressive showings of the Lord in question even in such a compromised physical condition which is really telling about his power during this time. Among the Jedi he encountered, one was really a powerhouse of lets say Vader's caliber if not better and even that Jedi failed to defeat Malgus.

This is the entire picture and I hope that people manage to comprehend it completely before deciding to underestimate both Shan and Malgus in their next debates.

Originally posted by carthage
Not seeing what "skill advantage" Satele has, losing to pre-prime Malgus and beating featless characters are inferior showings to Savage beating Plo and fighting evenly with Ventress.
I'm also undecided if Satele has any kind of edge over Savage.

Mauls wins with HoT.

I'm also curious what people think of Dathomir Talzin vs. unamped Vitiate.

Talzin > Vitiate.
Maul > HOT
Satele > Savage

Interestingly I still think Savage could beat her, given his strengths and her weaknesses.

Talzin would slaughter Vitiate here though, she's a superior duelist and on Dathomir is a far superior combatant with the force.

haermm

SWL epic fail

Originally posted by Selenial
Talzin > Vitiate.
Maul > HOT
Satele > Savage

Interestingly I still think Savage could beat her, given his strengths and her weaknesses.

Talzin would slaughter Vitiate here though, she's a superior duelist and on Dathomir is a far superior combatant with the force.
I can just as easily say that:

Dog > Talzin
Cat > Maul
Mouse > Savage

Doesn't makes my argument credible.

Only your last ranking is credible. Pops for that. And no, Savage cannot contend with a Jedi of that caliber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I can just as easily say that:

Dog > Talzin
Cat > Maul
Mouse > Savage

Doesn't makes my argument credible.

Only your last ranking is credible. Pops for that. And no, Savage cannot contend with a Jedi of that caliber.

Proof that Savage can't? Malgus dominated her. And she noted as such, multiple times.

If you could prove that HOT is better than Maul then go for it, but she has literally no showings that compare.

Vitiate has no feats that put him on ROTS level, especially off Nexus. Her Lightning contended with Sidious, and her bladework pushed Windu back. She is infinitely superior to vitiate in this setting.

Originally posted by Selenial
Proof that Savage can't? Malgus dominated her. And she noted as such, multiple times.
You put Malgus and Savage in the same league? You serious?

Read this:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am fully aware of what transpired during the confrontation between Satele Shan and Malgus on Aldeeran but I find the sheer magnitude of ignorance demonstrated by some members amusing concerning the events of the Hope cinematic. Many mistakenly assume Malgus to be lacking during this time. I just had a lengthy discussion about Malgus's skills and power as of this point in a recent thread, but some comments in this thread seem to indicate that PTRetards tend to be lot more biased then TORRetards in general.

Satele did end-up disarmed by Malgus but she performed admirably against him nonetheless. However, people not just tend to overlook Satele's impressive showings in this battle but also mistakenly assume that just because Malgus succeeded at disarming her, every well-known Tom and Harry would also.

Satele is evidently on a much higher level in competence, command of the Force, and raw power aspects as of Hope then most in the mythos.

The entire cinematic is small so people have limited knowledge of developments of this battle on Aldeeran. The larger picture is that Satele and Leener arrived on Aldeeran and collectively turned the tide of this battle after inflicting heavy losses on the Sith forces with their powers and combat abilities.

NOTE: Events in the bracket shown in the Hope cinematic. Nonetheless, Satele have demonstrated talents that are seldom witnessed, strength that is seldom duplicated, and competency of premium combatants in a single event.

Malgus survived the disaster due to his immense power and ability to take punishment and proceeded to fight more Jedi before retreating from the planet. This confrontation is described in the literature and it contains some of the most impressive showings of the Lord in question even in such a compromised physical condition which is really telling about his power during this time. Among the Jedi he encountered, one was really a powerhouse of lets say Vader's caliber if not better and even that Jedi failed to defeat Malgus.

This is the entire picture and I hope that people manage to comprehend it completely before deciding to underestimate both Shan and Malgus in their next debates.

---

Its a sad day when evidence is ignored on the face of it.

Originally posted by Selenial
If you could prove that HOT is better than Maul then go for it, but she has literally no showings that compare.
Perhaps this can help: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html

Originally posted by Selenial
Vitiate has no feats that put him on ROTS level, especially off Nexus. Her Lightning contended with Sidious, and her bladework pushed Windu back. She is infinitely superior to vitiate in this setting.
Really?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is evidence of Emperor Vitiate soundly defeating a Strike Team of some of the finest Jedi of the Order on a space station:

0GalABjUCig

Official description:

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopeda)

---

This is the referred space station:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120918025323/starwars/images/6/6c/Emperor's_Fortress.png

This is Emperor Vitiate or an avatar (Voice):

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120918025633/starwars/images/2/21/Emperor_chair.png

The idea that talzin is infinitely superior to Vitiate in any setting is disgusting.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The idea that talzin is infinitely superior to Vitiate in any setting is disgusting.

On Dathomir at full strength she's basically ROTS Sidious, maybe stronger.

People say that the "she could be weakened" doesn't count because of the word "could", but Sidious would not dare confront her on Dathomir until she had sacrificed herself for Maul first. He had extensive knowledge on the NightSister arts and knew she'd be weakened.

She's a far better duelist and has shown superior drain and Lightning, deal with it?

Originally posted by Selenial
On Dathomir at full strength she's basically ROTS Sidious, maybe stronger.

People say that the "she could be weakened" doesn't count because of the word "could", but Sidious would not dare confront her on Dathomir until she had sacrificed herself for Maul first. He had extensive knowledge on the NightSister arts and knew she'd be weakened.
What is there on the Dathomir that she benefits from?

And this is a limitation of Sidious, not Vitiate's who have likely mastered all forms of sorcery.

Originally posted by Selenial
She's a far better duelist and has shown superior drain and Lightning, deal with it?
Duelist? She is not an expert swordsman.

Superior drain and lightning?

Vitiate drained individuals from lightyear distances and many simultaneously. In-fact, he was such a master of these talents that he used them to increase in power on consistent basis. In addition, Vitiate's lightning is potent enough to swiftly overwhelm even the toughest of the defenses that Jedi are known to muster involving lightsabers and/or tutaminis abilities. And you know the end result? It reduces individuals to ash unless Vitiate wants to be lenient. And I am not even considering sorcery here.

Originally posted by Selenial
Talzin > Vitiate.
Maul > HOT
Satele > Savage

Interestingly I still think Savage could beat her, given his strengths and her weaknesses.

Talzin would slaughter Vitiate here though, she's a superior duelist and on Dathomir is a far superior combatant with the force.



Far superior with the Force? That's hysterical that you actually believe that. Not really I didn't actually laugh that was dumb.

No effing way is Talzin slaughtering Vitiate. She has no defense against either his telepathy or his telekinesis and he'd overwhelm her with his lightning as well, or kick her ass with sorcery. He's flat out better than her.

And the HoT would beat Maul. Derp.

Originally posted by Selenial
On Dathomir at full strength she's basically ROTS Sidious, maybe stronger.

People say that the "she could be weakened" doesn't count because of the word "could", but Sidious would not dare confront her on Dathomir until she had sacrificed herself for Maul first. He had extensive knowledge on the NightSister arts and knew she'd be weakened.

She's a far better duelist and has shown superior drain and Lightning, deal with it?

The idea that RotS Sidious is infinitely superior to Vitiate is also disgusting.

And when the hell did she use drain?

Originally posted by Nephthys


Far superior with the Force? That's hysterical that you actually believe that. Not really I didn't actually laugh that was dumb.

No effing way is Talzin slaughtering Vitiate. She has no defense against either his telepathy or his telekinesis and he's overwhelm her with his lightning as well, or kick her ass with sorcery.

And the HoT would beat Maul. Derp.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Far superior with the Force? That's hysterical that you actually believe that. Not really I didn't actually laugh that was dumb.

No effing way is Talzin slaughtering Vitiate. She has no defense against either his telepathy or his telekinesis and he'd overwhelm her with his lightning as well, or kick her ass with sorcery. He's flat out better than her.

And the HoT would beat Maul. Derp.



The idea that RotS Sidious is infinitely superior to Vitiate is also disgusting.

And when the hell did she use drain?

I said "here". This is on Dathomir.

She dominated Dooku's mind, so lol? What are his telekinesis feats? I mean the ones that outstrip Sidious', since he couldn't use it on her. Her force barrier was blocking Force Lightning, something that is incredibly rare in the mythos. Her barriers are easily enough to block TK.

When she drained Dooku?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Duelist? She is not an expert swordsman.
Not gonna bother with the rest, because lol.

But really, pushing Windu back makes her an expert swordsman.

Originally posted by Selenial
I said "here". This is on Dathomir.

She dominated Dooku's mind, so lol? What are his telekinesis feats? I mean the ones that outstrip Sidious', since he couldn't use it on her. Her force barrier was blocking Force Lightning, something that is incredibly rare in the mythos. Her barriers are easily enough to block TK.

When she drained Dooku?

I know what you said.

Uh, no she didn't. Being telekinetically superior to Revan. Which doesn't necessarily put him above Sidious, but I mean Sidious didn't use TK on her, that doesn't mean that he couldn't. And that's a speculative argument, TK can bypass such a shield if he chooses to simply throttle her. TK's not a bolt of energy.

And... that's impressive to you? I mean, it was probably a ritual iirc for one thing. And for another he was a defenseless captive.

Maul would destroy Hero

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know what you said.

Uh, no she didn't. Being telekinetically superior to Revan. Which doesn't necessarily put him above Sidious, but I mean Sidious didn't use TK on her, that doesn't mean that he couldn't. And that's a speculative argument, TK can bypass such a shield if he chooses to simply throttle her. TK's not a bolt of energy.

And... that's impressive to you? I mean, it was probably a ritual iirc for one thing. And for another he was a defenseless captive.

Hahahahahahahaa, Your double standards amaze me. "It was a ritual"

When has Vitiate use drain outside a ritual setting? How was he Telekinetically superior to Revan again? And no, force barriers block TK bursts like Force pushes and pulls. Someone who can evaporate at will isn't exactly going to be hit by debris either.

When is Dooku ever going to be defenseless? It was a contest of the force, he wasnt defenseless at all.

Originally posted by Selenial
Hahahahahahahaa, Your double standards amaze me. "It was a ritual"

When has Vitiate use drain outside a ritual setting? How was he Telekinetically superior to Revan again? And no, force barriers block TK bursts like Force pushes and pulls. Someone who can evaporate at will isn't exactly going to be hit by debris either.

When is Dooku ever going to be defenseless? It was a contest of the force, he wasnt defenseless at all.

Not really, you don't see me using Vitiate's ritual shit here do you? If we're going that route he's infinitely superior for being capable of draining the galaxy. Totally legit.

I didn't say he had. I just questioned how exactly Talzins drain was so great considering its unverified that she can do it in combat against a resisting opponent. Or that she can do it in a corporeal state. Though as a disembodied spirit he fed on the death caused by the Revanites to return dunno if that counts. Plus he was draining Revan from across the galaxy as well as his Hands.

Vitiate's power is so great that Revan was unable to affect even an Imperial Guardsman drawing upon it with TK, as well as Vitiate smacking Revan around in their fight. Clearly indicating superior TK ability. And I'm not talking about pushes and pulls, I'm talking about Vitiate disintegrating her like he did T3.

Can Talzin still evaporate now that she's revived? I doubt it.

How was there any contest at all? Dooku didn't defend himself at all, just like every time Talzin sorceries him.

Waiting to hear how she'll defend against the greatest telepath in history tho.

Originally posted by Selenial
Not gonna bother with the rest, because lol.

But really, pushing Windu back makes her an expert swordsman.
Certainly.

http://i62.tinypic.com/xgktmu.png

It is obvious that Nighsisters do not practice martial arts in the same way like Jedi do. Pushing Windu back momentarily isn't such a big deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really, you don't see me using Vitiate's ritual shit here do you? If we're going that route he's infinitely superior for being capable of draining the galaxy. Totally legit.

I didn't say he had. I just questioned how exactly Talzins drain was so great considering its unverified that she can do it in combat against a resisting opponent. Or that she can do it in a corporeal state. Though as a disembodied spirit he fed on the death caused by the Revanites to return dunno if that counts. Plus he was draining Revan from across the galaxy as well as his Hands.

Vitiate's power is so great that Revan was unable to affect even an Imperial Guardsman drawing upon it with TK, as well as Vitiate smacking Revan around in their fight. Clearly indicating superior TK ability. And I'm not talking about pushes and pulls, I'm talking about Vitiate disintegrating her like he did T3.

Can Talzin still evaporate now that she's revived? I doubt it.

How was there any contest at all? Dooku didn't defend himself at all, just like every time Talzin sorceries him.

Waiting to hear how she'll defend against the greatest telepath in history tho.

You asked what her drain feats were. I'm not trying to use it here.

No, Vitiate's "power is so great" that on a Dark Side Nexus, a weakened Revan couldn't instantaneously rag-doll a guard that's trained to withstand force attacks. Oh how pro. And oh wow, totally conceding the debate right here. I didn't know Vitiate could Tk whole protocol droids!!

That's a baseless and frankly hilarious argument, she can do everything in her revived form that she could in her original form. You do not seem to understand that her death occurred during the Jar Jar act, she had shown the ability to teleport and discussed it in the book of sith before that.

And surely that shows he can't defend himself? And you're using a pathetic argument with TP to be honest, for multiple reasons. Vitiate's best TP has all been done over time and with Rituals, the Children of the Emperor took years to condition. The only one you could even say was instant was the HOT, and even that is nothing but assumption.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Certainly.

http://i62.tinypic.com/xgktmu.png

It is obvious that Nighsisters do not practice martial arts in the same way like Jedi do. Pushing Windu back momentarily isn't such a big deal.

Because inhabiting someone elses body and using a Lightsaber with a completely abnormal hilt is a perfect showing of someone's combat abilities. Lol.

Beating Windu is incredibly impressive actually, there's not a single TOR Era combatant who could do it.

Revan.

Originally posted by Selenial
Because inhabiting someone elses body and using a Lightsaber with a completely abnormal hilt is a perfect showing of someone's combat abilities. Lol.
My point is that Talzin is not an expert of lightsaber dueling arts which I proved with evidence.

As for her clash with Windu, she conjured a magical sword (bristling with flames) which she swung widely at Windu; no technique or skill apparent, as noted by Sidious. She pressed Windu because of strength factor and the flammable sword may have confused Windu a bit but the battle was interrupted.

Originally posted by Selenial
Beating Windu is incredibly impressive actually, there's not a single TOR Era combatant who could do it.
And you know this how?

Windu isn't impossible to defeat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My point is that Talzin is not an expert of lightsaber dueling arts which I proved with evidence.

As for her clash with Windu, she conjured a magical sword (bristling with flames) which she swung widely at Windu; no technique or skill apparent, as noted by Sidious. She pressed Windu because of strength factor and the flammable sword may have confused Windu a bit but the battle was interrupted.


And you know this how?

Windu isn't impossible to defeat.

That's merely the style of the show. Ventress swings with absolutely no skill in her duel with Grevious, neither does he. Neither does Eeth Koth or even Windu, TCW was terrible at showing lightsaber skill. That's like me saying Vitiate gets speedblitzed because he's slow as **** in all the Cutscenes he's in.

Her Sword won't have "confused him". No Jedi survives what Windu has survived if they almost get beheaded due to being "confused." A Bounty hunter electrocuted Windu with a baby strapped to their chest and he still reacted fast enough to save his own life...

Is there a reason Vitiate can't just mind control all of team 1 by himself? Not sure you can argue the Dathomiri have a stronger will then Revan.

As for beating them in other ways...my favorite question is 'how much prep did Vitiate get?'

He gets enough prep to not suck and not need a nexus to accomplish a vast majority of his feats

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Is there a reason Vitiate can't just mind control all of team 1 by himself?
He'd need preb for each and everyone one of them.

That being said, Team 2 takes this.

When the hell did Talzin "beat" Windu. All she did was miss him with wild swings and then blade lock him. Hardly enough to call her even a half decent duelist.

Originally posted by ILS
When the hell did Talzin "beat" Windu. All she did was miss him with wild swings and then blade lock him. Hardly enough to call her even a half decent duelist.

Poor choice of words, I stand by my original statement that she forced him on the defensive. And that is impressive none the less.

Again, Wild swings is just their style, like here: http://youtu.be/ZF97aJO7MuM?t=50s

lol Selenial's at it again with her unbelievably illogical posts.

Originally posted by Sinious
lol Selenial's at it again with her unbelievably illogical posts.

Well OK, by your infallible Logic:

Vitiate can only move at a maximum of 2mph.
Trips over his own shoe laces.
Struggles to get off his chair.
Has no Strength abilities.
Knows nothing more than two lightsaber moves.
Moves at a slower pace than my near-comatose grandmother during combat.

Yay for Sinious logic, I'll have to use this next time we have a debate on Vitiate.

Originally posted by Selenial
Poor choice of words, I stand by my original statement that she forced him on the defensive. And that is impressive none the less.

Again, Wild swings is just their style, like here: http://youtu.be/ZF97aJO7MuM?t=50s She didn't really force him on the defensive. She didn't demonstrate any great level of skill against Windu, all she did was swing at him. He moved back, they blade locked, and that was that. Nothing too outstanding.

The difference being Ventress has on plenty of occasions demonstrated high levels of skill, precision and intricacy, whereas Talzin just has this one showing of swinging wildly at Mace and getting nowhere. I don't know where to place her in terms of skill but certainly nowhere near Windu.

Actually, I wonder...how much prep DOES Vitiate need to be at 'standard operating levels' off nexus? Do we have a time window?

Originally posted by Selenial
Well OK, by your infallible Logic:

Vitiate can only move at a maximum of 2mph.
Trips over his own shoe laces.
Struggles to get off his chair.
Has no Strength abilities.
Knows nothing more than two lightsaber moves.
Moves at a slower pace than my near-comatose grandmother during combat.

Yay for Sinious logic, I'll have to use this next time we have a debate on Vitiate.

Pumpkin I was referring to your earlier posts.

Besides, you accuse people with having double standards but I don't see you declaring Vitiate an expert swordsman for being able to duel HoT for a decent amount of time.

Originally posted by ILS
She didn't really force him on the defensive. She didn't demonstrate any great level of skill against Windu, all she did was swing at him. He moved back, they blade locked, and that was that. Nothing too outstanding.

The difference being Ventress has on plenty of occasions demonstrated high levels of skill, precision and intricacy, whereas Talzin just has this one showing of swinging wildly at Mace and getting nowhere. I don't know where to place her in terms of skill but certainly nowhere near Windu.

I'm not even remotely saying she's Windu level, don't worry.

But Windu's Vapaad would honestly allow him to speedblitz anyone who hasnt mastered blade combat in seconds, Similar to Sidious' speedblitz, except Windu's would be done through skill.

The fact Talzin had at least forced him back and shown her ability to push the attack long enough to stop any retaliation at least proves she's not a mook, where Vitiate really is. With a lightsaber of course.

Originally posted by Sinious
Pumpkin I was referring to your earlier posts.

Besides, you accuse people with having double standards but I don't see you declaring Vitiate an expert swordsman for being able to duel HoT for a decent amount of time.

He didn't though, he summoned illusions and used Lightning and shit, depending on how you look at game mechanics. Even in the cutscene vitiate doesn't even have his blade out...

He used the force.

Well I do agree she isn't a mook, and she's better than Shitiate. Relative to anyone else here though.. nah.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My only qualm is with the notion that Satele is a full tier above Savage. She's no Dooku.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/mmm.gif She's no Dooku. But she's got roughly the bladework of Kenobi and perhaps the TK power of Savage (or perhaps even Maul). I think Savage is a full tier below Maul and Kenobi in all out.


A-:
Mace
Anakin
Dooku



B+:
Maul
Satele
Kenobi

C+:
Savage

Well, in Satele's defense, she IS Grandmaster. And she probably didn't win that job in a raffle.

Rofl at Satele being on par with Maul and Kenobi and above Savage by a tier.

Originally posted by Selenial
He didn't though, he summoned illusions and used Lightning and shit, depending on how you look at game mechanics. Even in the cutscene vitiate doesn't even have his blade out...

He used the force.

Oh well you don't mind arguing against him when it comes to melee combat though. He walked right towards HoT and didnt even get his lightsaber out. This suggests that he isnt as vulnerable as you and many others assume he is when it comes to melee combat. It seems to me that you have a habit of ignoring details that hint TOR characters capabilities but you also obsessively focus on details that hint their weaknesses.

...But people are acting like Shan did win that job in a raffle. Or is at least unusually weak for a Grandmaster.

She is just a mediocre duelist.

Even if she is a mediocre duelist, Shan's strength in the Force must make up for it, or she wouldn't have her job.

Think of it this way: If she had to justify her position as Grandmaster to all the other grandmasters, how would she do so?

Her strength in the force isn't enough to beat Savage or Maul. Her best feat is crushing droids, Savage has destroyed a room of Mandalorian iron. She isn't ragdolling him.

...Then how does she justify being Grandmaster?

^
In that pathetic era even something like this small piece of shit, Zym, could've become a GM... ah, wait...

Originally posted by Selenial
That's merely the style of the show. Ventress swings with absolutely no skill in her duel with Grevious, neither does he. Neither does Eeth Koth or even Windu, TCW was terrible at showing lightsaber skill. That's like me saying Vitiate gets speedblitzed because he's slow as **** in all the Cutscenes he's in.

Her Sword won't have "confused him". No Jedi survives what Windu has survived if they almost get beheaded due to being "confused." A Bounty hunter electrocuted Windu with a baby strapped to their chest and he still reacted fast enough to save his own life...
The show is cartoonish but it still contains some decent duels. As an example, Dooku's elegance in the dueling was really apparent in his confrontation with the Nightsisters.

Still, giving your point some benefit of doubt, I am still not convinced by the competence of the witch in martial aspects of combat. Maybe she is good in these matters but she really sucked with a lightsaber. And I am not sure how she would have performed against Sidious with her magic sword.

Windu have fought mostly lightsaber-wielding opponents. Sorcery was new stuff for him and Talzin packed lot of strength too.

Not questioning Windu's competence but people really blow him out of proportion because of his performance against Sidious. Windu managed to immerse himself deeply into the Vaapad during this confrontation and this enabled Windu to duel Sidious on equal footing until the Jedi found a shatterpoint to exploit. Windu's talents clearly made the difference but they are not automatic win for him in every scenario and neither he will eliminate all others on moment's notice. Things aren't so black and white.

Originally posted by Selenial
You asked what her drain feats were. I'm not trying to use it here.

No, Vitiate's "power is so great" that on a Dark Side Nexus, a weakened Revan couldn't instantaneously rag-doll a guard that's trained to withstand force attacks. Oh how pro. And oh wow, totally conceding the debate right here. I didn't know Vitiate could Tk whole protocol droids!!

That's a baseless and frankly hilarious argument, she can do everything in her revived form that she could in her original form. You do not seem to understand that her death occurred during the Jar Jar act, she had shown the ability to teleport and discussed it in the book of sith before that.

And surely that shows he can't defend himself? And you're using a pathetic argument with TP to be honest, for multiple reasons. Vitiate's best TP has all been done over time and with Rituals, the Children of the Emperor took years to condition. The only one you could even say was instant was the HOT, and even that is nothing but assumption.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Hopefully you've calmed down now tho.

You brought up Talzin's drain feats as things that put her above Vitiate. So I think you were trying to use it.

Revan wasn't weakened, and there's no reason a nexus would affect power the guard was drawing directly off of Vitiate. Besides which a nexus isn't going to make enough of a difference that Revan's unable to effect a mook merely drawing on Vitiate's power on nexus and somehow be on par with the big guy himself off nexus. Lol @ a non-force sensitive trained to resist force techniques. I'm sure all that l33t training makes tk super ineffective, maybe digs his heels in a bit, makes a low posture. I can see why Revan would find it hard to TK him with moves like that. Also disintegrating a protocol droid is still leagues better than anything Talzin has done with TK. Which is um, oh remind me, anything at all? I seem to recall her making a cup float once.

Son of Dathomir claims that she gave up most of her physical form helping Maul. So I have no clue what you're talking about.

Just because Dooku is an ignorant chuckle**** against sorcery doesn't mean Vitiate is. Plus I highly doubt Talzin can perform that kind of possession in a corporeal form. Vitiate's TP isn't rituals. ****ing hell with the Vitiate ritual BS. It's confirmed multiple times in multiple sources to be incredibly powerful and very easy and quick for him to do. He's the most dominating force-user the galaxy has ever seen. He can and will engage Talzin in a mental duel and crush her. Try again.