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All at their peak.

Neutral setting.

Who takes it?

Zallow has blitzed Sith Lords with ease

Caedus is a Sith Lord

We have a solo

Well played, ILS. Well played. biscuits

Let's also not forget Darach's one trailer shows he is one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos, he can at the least match Caedus in sabers.

I may call this spite.

Caedus stomps

Team.

Yeah, a guy who fight evenly with Luke is going to have problems with likes of fodder like Satele and Darach.

Lol.

You wound me

HoT and Braga slaughterfest

The wounds Caedus leaves on HoT'S corpse would be deeper imo

Vitiate's wounds on Revan/Bane cut even deeper tbh

Caedus wins, he Force stomps all but HoT and maybe Braga, from there it is merely elementary.

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus stomps

He'd steamroll the HoT.

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus stomps
But Caedus lacks unpredictability to pull that off.

Team with laughable ease.

Spite thread.

Caedus can simply just speedblitz all but the Hero, like they have no speed feats that even approach enough to not get blitzed by him in saber combat.

Infact I have to say that unless you are Luke, Yoda, Windu or Sidious you really can't leave a mark on the champ's face.

Caedus god stomps sabers, stomps Force and stomps all-out.

Like Caedus speedblitzed Katarn's team? Together they can surely weather his assault by supporting each other.

And tbh I don't recall Caedus showing speed on the level you're giving him. Fighting Luke isn't good enough in my books.

Again, Caedus couldn't stomp Katarn's team with sabers or the Force and he admitted that the likes of Saba would give him trouble in a fight. Is Saba a greater challenge than 4 of the greatest TOR Jedi? I highly doubt it. I highly doubt she's greater than the Hero alone.

Caedus was ambushed and unprepared, the team admitted that capturing him was an unrealistic prospect and settled for planting a tracking device. Just to note Katarn has greater feats than all bar the HoT and even then is far from outmatched.

Caedus has brilliant speed feats throughout his appearances and fighting Luke whom is desperately attempting to capture him, keep his son safe and is actually losing most of it is definitely more impressive by magnitudes than anything your TOR team can claim.

Beyond that the fact that Jaina Solo couldn't blitz him despite the ability to do the same to incredibly strong Sith and Vong whilst severely injured is also incredibly impressive.

Caedus couldn't stomp anything in those circumstances but performed exceptionally despite them. Your point?

Caedus has greater feats in every aspect than all of his opponents by ever increasing degrees.

Oh and please tell me you aren't another one of the lot that reads a few book and believes to have knowledge over the entire NJO era. Because quite frankly acting like anyone having trouble with Saba is undermining evidence is quite baseless.

She has very strong feats of her own, there is a reason that Saba is considered arguably the second strongest in the Jedi Order of her time and Kenth Hamner only got the Grand Master job instead of her because of typical Jedi modesty.

Caedus was a megalodon in his era and only the most powerful Force User ever was considered strong enough to face him on good terms, this being an era fulk of very powerful beings.

I can see a solid argument for Darth Vader winning this battle in Caedus' stead, which in my opinion is very telling given that Caedus is stated to be more powerful and is demonstratively all that and much more by comparison.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Team with laughable ease.

Laughable ease, eh? So how would Vitiate do against them?

(This should be good)

Originally posted by Trocity
Laughable ease, eh? So how would Vitiate do against them?

(This should be good)

Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus was ambushed and unprepared, the team admitted that capturing him was an unrealistic prospect and settled for planting a tracking device. Just to note Katarn has greater feats than all bar the HoT and even then is far from outmatched.

Caedus has brilliant speed feats throughout his appearances and fighting Luke whom is desperately attempting to capture him, keep his son safe and is actually losing most of it is definitely more impressive by magnitudes than anything your TOR team can claim.

Beyond that the fact that Jaina Solo couldn't blitz him despite the ability to do the same to incredibly strong Sith and Vong whilst severely injured is also incredibly impressive.

Caedus couldn't stomp anything in those circumstances but performed exceptionally despite them. Your point?

Caedus has greater feats in every aspect than all of his opponents by ever inceasing degrees.

And Katarn was flanked by 2 random knights. The team here is vastly superior than the team that attacked Caedus then. More people and everyone is on a higher plane. They can definitely challenge Jacen.

"Brilliant speed feats" as in what? Not getting blitzed by Jaina is lolworthy. The HoT and Zallow have blitzed powerful Sith as well. But I'll concede that they won't blitz him either.

That against a vastly superior team in mildly better circumstances he'd be challenged and likely overcome. You've ignored that Jacen himself admits he can't beat Saba-level opponents easily. All of this team are within that sphere.

Originally posted by Trocity
Laughable ease, eh? So how would Vitiate do against them?

(This should be good)

He'd probably Telepathy-spam, but a peak HoT can possibly support the team enough to give them a good shot.

Give Darach his padawan's saberstaff and Caedus will be in all kinds of bother.

Jaina Solo has dominating blitz displays against opponents with more feats than all of HoT's allies combined. Two random knights? you just proved that you haven't read Legacy of the Force properly, nor even the Vong series.

Jaina Solo actually has better feats than the Hero now I think about it, but nice NJO lowballing you have there. I'm sure you feel 'cool' now.

Caedus has fought and at least stalemated Mara Jade, Jaina Solo and Luke himself, three opponents with far greater speed feats than the nameless Jedi you tout.

If you replace the entire team with Revan then it might be a very interesting fight, as is they don't have nearly the feats to compete.

Caedus in text was casually batting away their strikes, knew he could easily beat them, and even fought threee of them at once in spite of being injured:





Katarn himself is above anyone on the TOR team, and he dispatched him within a series of moments and TKED him. He won't have a problem ragdolling or killing fodder like Braga or easily taking Zallow or Darach at once.



Dodging blaster bolts while injured, fighting faster than Ben Skywalker who (can dodge blaster bolts, lightning, and leave trails of light with his lightsaber) could perceive, forming curtains and fans with his lightsaber simultaneously, moving his blade fast enough to illuminate a corner of the Anakin solo, moving his blade fast enough to form a column of light, as well as contend with Luke while injured. None of them have any showings comparable.



No one on the team is superior to Kyle or Saba in dueling skill

Originally posted by AncientPower
Jaina Solo has dominating blitz displays against opponents with more feats than all of HoT's allies combined. Two random knights? you just proved that you haven't read Legacy of the Force properly, nor even the Vong series.

Jaina Solo actually has better feats than the Hero now I think about it, but nice NJO lowballing you have there. I'm sure you feel 'cool' now.

Calm down.

Jaina also killed Caedus, which I think you're forgetting. Trying to hype Jaina doesn't make Caedus as much greater than the team than you think. Unless you also think Jaina can speedblitz the team (****ing lol), it doesn't establish as much as you think. Plus you haven't actually given much to back up all this hype so you're not convincing me. Also yeah sorry, I messed up. It was actually 3 random chumps, not 2.

random SWTOR character X defeats SWTOR character Y

Doesn't mean Y is weak, it means X is that good!

Jaina defeats Caedus

Both suck.

#nephlogic
#doublestandards

Yup, Braga that is featless, Darach that got killed by trainee Malgus, Hero who has only beaten featless fodder, and Zallow who died to an opponent far inferior to Caedus.

He is really going to lose to them

Originally posted by The_Tempest
random SWTOR character X defeats SWTOR character Y

Doesn't mean Y is weak, it means X is that good!

Jaina defeats Caedus

Both suck.

#nephlogic
#doublestandards

Not really. AP is trying to use Jaina not blitzing Caedus as proof that he can totes speedblitz the team, despite offering nothing indicating Jaina could speedblitz the team. So he's trying to establish them to a certain level, and while I'm not saying that they suck, what I am saying is that neither is going to blitz this team. Unless he actually has some of these brilliant speed feats he's mentioned.

Me suggesting neither can speedblitz a team of some of the most powerful TOR Jedi doesn't mean they suck, bro. But nice try.

You not providing any speed feats that compare to the ones listed for Caedus isn't proof they can't be blitzed. But ok.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
random SWTOR character X defeats SWTOR character Y

Doesn't mean Y is weak, it means X is that good!

Jaina defeats Caedus

Both suck.

#nephlogic
#doublestandards lmfao

So true

Not sure how Jaina not being able to blitz the team is proof he can't, lol.

Originally posted by Trocity
Laughable ease, eh? So how would Vitiate do against them?

(This should be good)
What might happen is this:

Vitiate defeats them because he's a vastly superior force user.

Caedus loses to them because he's a vastly superior force user.

/shrug

Caedus in a difficult fight.

Originally posted by carthage
Katarn himself is above anyone on the TOR team, and he dispatched him within a series of moments and TKED him. He won't have a problem ragdolling or killing fodder like Braga or easily taking Zallow or Darach at once.

Imho Katarn could have put a much better fight. Caedus defeated him through cunning. No one would really expect to get knocked by a flying past air-speeder.

As of the rest right on point.

Actually it said he would've cut him in half if it weren't for a distraction.

But yeah, Caedus is vastly above these guys in spite of Nephs' crap logic

lol Caedus dies.

Nope

Originally posted by Nephthys
Calm down.

Jaina also killled Caedus, which I think you're forgetting. Trying to hype Jaina doesn't make Caedus as much greater than the team than you think. Unless you also think Jaina can speedblitz the team (****ing lol), it doesn't establish as much as you think. Plus you haven't actually given much to back up all this hype so you're not convincing me. Also yeah sorry, I messed up. It was actually 3 random chumps, not 2.

Jaina killed a disinterested Caedus consumed with the thought his daughter Allana is about to die. Yet more proof you haven't actually read the books.

If you knew anything about Jaina Solo you would know she has killed extremely well-trained Sith via speedblitz on Dromund Kaas. Not to mention killed a High Lord with pinnioned legs via blinding speed.

Jaina is one of the most overly trained Jedi combatants in the mythos, she is the Sword of the Jedi. Hyped to a point where she has been compared favorably to Luke Skywalker in Fate of the Jedi as a swordsman. She has the highest tier Mandalorian training combined with sword skills referred to as 'ruthless' by Caedus himself.

Kyle Katarn had four allies whom all have more feats than three quarters of your team does.

None of your TOR team has speed feats that even compare to Jaina Solo, nevermind her far more skilled and powerful brother.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
random SWTOR character X defeats SWTOR character Y

Doesn't mean Y is weak, it means X is that good!

Jaina defeats Caedus

Both suck.

#nephlogic
#doublestandards

It's definitely a possibility.



I think this is overplayed, honestly. In their first fight, the only advantage she had was that Caedus was hesitant about facing Luke Skywalker head-on with one arm. He was definitely going for the kill that round.



The Hero of Tython also speed-blitzed two Sith Lords that had just defeated a Council Member, one strike each. It was a pathetic Council member, sure, but I doubt the Sith that Jaina took down are any more impressive regardless.



That's not really true, though, considering that even Jacen isn't better than Luke.



Those Jedi were decent, and children of great Jedi, but none of them are a real match for anyone in this thread tbh.

In the second round he repeatedly gave her recovery and let her batman him to death, when he actually attempted to subdue her she was helpless.

Jacen was equating Luke in pure sabers to be fair, that is why he forced a duel.

They were collectively deemed the best team of Jedi available to Kyle at the time IIRC because they worked so well.

Originally posted by AncientPower
In the second round he repeatedly gave her recovery and let her batman him to death, when he actually attempted to subdue her she was helpless.

That's not true. He tried to kill her like the first time. He attempted to reason at one point but that was out of desperation rather than holding back.

He had one arm, a hole in his chest, and still sent her flying towards the incinerator without even gesturing. Then he tried to leave again.

It was pretty clear he should have been able to just ragdoll her. The writers were very inconsistent.

NJO Era writers just portray the Force differently than others, tbh.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Jaina killed a disinterested Caedus consumed with the thought his daughter Allana is about to die. Yet more proof you haven't actually read the books.

If you knew anything about Jaina Solo you would know she has killed extremely well-trained Sith via speedblitz on Dromund Kaas. Not to mention killed a High Lord with pinnioned legs via blinding speed.

Jaina is one of the most overly trained Jedi combatants in the mythos, she is the Sword of the Jedi. Hyped to a point where she has been compared favorably to Luke Skywalker in Fate of the Jedi as a swordsman. She has the highest tier Mandalorian training combined with sword skills referred to as 'ruthless' by Caedus himself.

Kyle Katarn had four allies whom all have more feats than three quarters of your team does.

None of your TOR team has speed feats that even compare to Jaina Solo, nevermind her far more skilled and powerful brother.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/00eabda6005a55e7c768563be1c65093/tumblr_n4qug29ljD1rel53co1_1280.jpg

Calm down. I know you really want Caedus to be able to stomp this team for some reason but getting aggressive makes Solaire hollow.

Others have responded to this. I don't care about it that much other than in how exactly you think it establishes Solo's speed.

How "extremely well-trained" were these Sith exactly? Wheres your proof for their caliber? Because Zallow was blitzing the finest Sith Warriors in Vitiate's Empire which was was overall superior to the Lost Tribe Losers. And the HoT blitzed 2 Sith who'd just defeated a Jedi High Council member, not to mentioned blitzed 2 Sith who'd ambushed her. Furthermore, Jaina performed that feat after she'd fought Caedus. 3 years was it? So that's a unreliable form of evidence for Jacen.

Again, that statement was made after her fights with Caedus and her Mando training wasn't in swordsmanship or force speed, so it's not exactly relevant for establishing Jacen.

Oh come on, obviously Seha doesn't count. She didn't engage Jacen, and no ****ing way does she have more feats than Darach, Braga or Zallow. None of the others do either. Unless you want to prove up, bro.

Actually at least 2 of them do, and the other two are extremely powerful Jedi who gave very impressive fights to very impressive opponents. Whereas the fodder on Katarn's team have jack shit and still kept up. Suggesting that random Jedi Knights match up with Zallow, Braga and Darach, or in fact actually exceed them, is something you'll have to prove before it ceases to seem ridiculous.

Originally posted by Trocity
Laughable ease, eh? So how would Vitiate do against them?

(This should be good)
Emperor Vitiate is much stronger then Darth Caedus, their is no comparison.

If this is (prime) HoT then the Strike Team might present significant challenge to Emperor by virtue of HoT's efforts. The other 3 Jedi don't stand a chance against Emperor's powers and are likely to be non-factor for him. Emperor will likely win in a good fight holistically.

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus in text was casually batting away their strikes, knew he could easily beat them, and even fought threee of them at once in spite of being injured:
Because Caedus matched Luke Skywalker in martial aspects of Jedi arts. Katarn was the only individual in the Strike Team who could challenge Caedus but the rest were lacking.

Still, Caedus failed to blitz a single individual of the Strike Team.

Originally posted by carthage
Katarn himself is above anyone on the TOR team, and he dispatched him within a series of moments and TKED him. He won't have a problem ragdolling or killing fodder like Braga or easily taking Zallow or Darach at once.
Based on?

Katarn did well until Caedus pulled down a nearby speeder on the Jedi. The speeder hit Katarn and send him flying towards Caedus, Katarn ended-up impaled in this manner.

Braga, Zallow and Darach are now fodder? (No pun intended but you need to get your senses evaluated by doctors)

Originally posted by carthage
Dodging blaster bolts while injured, fighting faster than Ben Skywalker who (can dodge blaster bolts, lightning, and leave trails of light with his lightsaber) could perceive, forming curtains and fans with his lightsaber simultaneously, moving his blade fast enough to illuminate a corner of the Anakin solo, moving his blade fast enough to form a column of light, as well as contend with Luke while injured. None of them have any showings comparable.
HoT, Darach and Braga aren't documented in literature, so we don't have descriptions of their dueling prowess but all are among the finest of the Jedi. Zallow's dueling prowess have been described in literature and he have all the fancy hype going for him and even blitz feats. I am sure that the other 3 aren't inferior to Zallow.

Originally posted by carthage
No one on the team is superior to Kyle or Saba in dueling skill
You are wrong.

This TOR wank is honestly as bad as the Bane trolling if not worse.

If the character is from the TOR era and has generic 'powerful' hype then he/she is automatically a match for Count Dooku.

If he/she is a Dark Council member with one appearance then he/she can defeat Darth Vader because 'the reconstituted Sith Empire was perfect for the ascension of the strongest'.

Darth Malgus is strong enough to fight Luke Skywalker because a heavily amped Lord Nyax gave him problems, *insert more lowballing attempts with character's weakest showing here*.

*Insert fallacious asinine logic based on overly used generic Encyclopedia hype here*

Vitiate is much stronger than Darth Caedus? completely correct, we all know Vitiate is a god-like mega being stronger than Darth Sidious and on the level of the Ones as the diety of the Dark Side.

This enormous bias is nauseating and completely destroys any attempts at taking SWTOR characters seriously.

...

I don't see how suggesting that 4 of the best TOR Jedi can give Caedus a good fight and not get stomped constitutes as wank.

I mean, even Legend didn't say much that was crazy other than Vitiate >>>>>> Caedus but you know how Legend swings so that's no big deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how suggesting that 4 of the best TOR Jedi can give Caedus a good fight and not get stomped constitutes as wank.

I mean, even Legend didn't say much that was crazy other than Vitiate >>>>>> Caedus but you know how Legend swings so that's no big deal.

That's another double standard, though. You condone Legend's TOR wank but throw a fit at carthage's Banehate?

I am not referring to your HoT and co. argument but the TOR wank in general.

My favourite era is TOR and my favourite character is Darth Nox but the bias on display for that era is atrocious.

Legend gonna Legend, man. S'no big deal.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's another double standard, though. You condone Legend's TOR wank but throw a fit at carthage's Banehate?

No it isn't. Legend is entitled to his own opinions and no one has the right to condone him believing such things. Carthage actively attacks and mocks peoples opinions and seeks to turn others against them. I have no issue with him believing Bane is weak (unless I'm actually trying to disprove his arguments of course) but I do have an issue with him aggressively pushing that opinion and trying to squash those of other's. Not even close to the same thing.

Actually LeGenD has been doing exactly that since 2012, not just here but on Wookieepedia and SWTOR as well. He vandalized repeatedly the Palpatine page and belittled some of the most veteran members of that site for stopping him, they had to lock the page hard to stop his activities.

Since then he has routinely accused the Wookieepedia staff of being biased and claimed that they don't allow additions to the site. Being a 2006 vet myself I can't tell you how imbecilic that is, the site isn't perfect but we do try.

LeGenD is far from innocent so stop trying to defend him.

I have been a huge fan of the Old Sith Wars era since Tales of the Jedi first released, I am a devoted KotOR/KOTOR2 fan and a massive TOR fan on-top of that.

So imagine if you will how endlessly infuriating it must be to be labelled a sock and have very well sourced and constructed posts dismissed out of hand ALL because LeGenD has single-handedly destroyed any chance of that era being taken seriously.

In his futile, nihilistic attempts to raise TOR he has completely blown it out of the water. The way he goes about all his debates is beyond ridiculous.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't. Legend is entitled to his own opinions and no one has the right to condone him believing such things. Carthage actively attacks and mocks peoples opinions and seeks to turn others against them. I have no issue with him believing Bane is weak (unless I'm actually trying to disprove his arguments of course) but I do have an issue with him aggressively pushing that opinion and trying to squash those of other's. Not even close to the same thing.

Leg. does indeed mock and attack other people's opinions and that's a fact. Whether or not he does it to the same degree as cart. is open to debate. But to insinuate that one is a saint when compared with the other is to openly lie.

I don't know about any of that. In my experience he's always been quite civil and reasonable here unless attacked himself. So I'm going off of that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know about any of that. In my experience he's always been quite civil and reasonable here unless attacked himself. So I'm going off of that.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrl1md6QD31qdlkgg.gif

If he has been uncivil, it's no more than any other member, including you and myself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he has been uncivil, it's no more than any other member, including you and myself.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140204002929/glee/images/5/53/Duh_duh_duh.gif

So making excuses for him is kinda silly. He has been uncivil, no it hasn't always been in response to aggression from others, and you've read enough of his posts that I know you're aware of it. But because his views align with yours than do carthage's, you're willing to turn a blind eye to it.

I mean, I'm willing to post examples of LeGenD's aggression or call for other users to remark on it. But it's just going to derail the thread, upset him, and make you look silly for pretending it doesn't exist.

I wonder if I could find an example of you calling him out on it. mmm

Bet I could. excellent

That would be funny. haermm

He's more about attacking characters, tbh. He very rarely goes after posters directly. This all drowned out by the tidal waves of hype he has on his clipboard, of course.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He's more about attacking characters, tbh. He very rarely goes after posters directly. This all drowned out by the tidal waves of hype he has on his clipboard, of course.

Nah, I've seen plenty of examples of him getting pretty rude with posters in a debate for absolutely zero reason.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140204002929/glee/images/5/53/Duh_duh_duh.gif

So making excuses for him is kinda silly. He has been uncivil, no it hasn't always been in response to aggression from others, and you've read enough of his posts that I know you're aware of it. But because his views align with yours than do carthage's, you're willing to turn a blind eye to it.

I mean, I'm willing to post examples of LeGenD's aggression or call for other users to remark on it. But it's just going to derail the thread, upset him, and make you look silly for pretending it doesn't exist.

I wonder if I could an example of you calling him out on it. mmm

Bet I could. excellent

That would be funny. haermm

I call out carthage for his uncommon level of aggression and bad behavior. I do not call out Legend for his common level of behavior for the same reason I don't call out our other members. It has nothing to do with bias, I simply cannot recall Legend demonstrating any excessive behavior befitting a rebuke. And nothing like carthage's level of consistent trolling. Someone being a dick once in a while is natural, it happens. I only have a problem if it becomes excessive.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I've seen plenty of examples of him getting pretty rude with posters in a debate for absolutely zero reason.
Hmm. Well I haven't seen much of it lately.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Actually LeGenD has been doing exactly that since 2012, not just here but on Wookieepedia and SWTOR as well. He vandalized repeatedly the Palpatine page and belittled some of the most veteran members of that site for stopping him, they had to lock the page hard to stop his activities.
This is absolutely false. You are a habitual liar and you continue to lie without shame.

Please check editing history of Palpatine's page in Wookiee first before lying about my contributions in Wookiee.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Since then he has routinely accused the Wookieepedia staff of being biased and claimed that they don't allow additions to the site. Being a 2006 vet myself I can't tell you how imbecilic that is, the site isn't perfect but we do try.
This isn't the case. I do have an issue with one of the contributors of Wookiee because that guy have egoistic issues. He created unnecessary fuss about my suggestions for Emperor's article and he went as far as to revert my edits in other pages of Wookiee in childish manner. I had to literally comment on his talk page to stop him from abusing his powers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LeGenD is far from innocent so stop trying to defend him.
And you are innocent? You are a 1st degree liar.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have been a huge fan of the Old Sith Wars era since Tales of the Jedi first released, I am a devoted KotOR/KOTOR2 fan and a massive TOR fan on-top of that.

So imagine if you will how endlessly infuriating it must be to be labelled a sock and have very well sourced and constructed posts dismissed out of hand ALL because LeGenD has single-handedly destroyed any chance of that era being taken seriously.

In his futile, nihilistic attempts to raise TOR he has completely blown it out of the water. The way he goes about all his debates is beyond ridiculous.
Oh, have you ever focused on your posting history? Filled with utter nonsense, lies and deception. I attempted to reason with you to recheck your claims before posting them in reasonable manner in multiple threads. You didn't listen and reacted aggressively. This is why I created a thread about Caedus to expose your misrepresentation of this character.

You should be ashamed for yourself.

Once these 4 GoSolo, their lives are done.

Mara by herself ultimately put up a better fight in Sacrifice then all 4 of these jokers. Admittedly that's entirely tactical and saboteur expertise, not strength in the Force or Sabers, but credit where it's due. Dirty Fighting. It works, people!

On the other hand, these 4 would just charge him and try to chop him up, which a stupid way to take on Caedus.

If you can force Caedus to resort to dirty tricks, you can die peacefully knowing you're reasonably awesome.

Can we just rename this thread to "The Comedy Central Roast of S_W_LeGenD"?

Granted we might run into the issues people have with Bieber, in that roasts are for well respected and liked people, but still.



Very thread, much ruin.

Ah so when you repeatedly insisted that because the Sith Emperor has most powerful hype from the SWTOR:E and that you would not stop changing Palpatine's the most powerful Sith ever statement, that absolutely didn't happen? you're a truly sad human being.

At least own up to your own crap

Caedus stomps these fools

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus stomps these fools

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ah so when you repeatedly insisted that because the Sith Emperor has most powerful hype from the SWTOR:E and that you would not stop changing Palpatine's the most powerful Sith ever statement, that absolutely didn't happen? you're a truly sad human being.

At least own up to your own crap
Some of my points are exploratory in nature, most are grounded in literature however.

Anyways, I am willing to put our differences aside but you need to stop accusing me of stuff like you did in your previous response; it came in very poor taste from you.

If you have misconceptions concerning me or my responses, ask me first.

Hero isn't that far away from Caedus alone. Add in the rest? We got ourselves a slaughter.

Yes, I know.

Yeah, HoT is being underrated here pretty badly.

Caedus is magnitudes faster, stronger, durable, skilled and powerful than Hero of Tython is. Caedus is the one who is routinely underestimated, typically by those who just don't like the books he appears in or the era itself.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus is magnitudes faster, stronger, durable, skilled and powerful than Hero of Tython is. Caedus is the one who is routinely underestimated, typically by those who just don't like the books he appears in or the era itself.

LMAO Caedus is considered Plagueis' superior by many people here. HoT on the other hand is possibly the strongest Jedi of his era(excluding Revan) yet I've seen people who believe that the likes Savage would defeat him.

That's because most don't think highly of that era. Personally I wouldn't place the HoT any higher than Anakin. And if Revan is more powerful than the HoT, which I think he is, that's not saying much for the TOR era either. S/he'd still be below Caedus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus is magnitudes faster, stronger, durable, skilled and powerful than Hero of Tython is. Caedus is the one who is routinely underestimated, typically by those who just don't like the books he appears in or the era itself.

I'm pretty sure you've completely failed so far in establishing really any of that in this thread. Caedus' speed feats are not magnitudes better than the Hero's, Caedus' strength feats are (I believe) rather non-existant, I highly doubt that Caedus is more durable than the Hero who wears heavy battle armor and certainly possesses some of the finest armor by the latest period in TOR, in terms of skill I'm not seeing anything greater than the Hero and you've posted no feats suggesting a vast gulf in terms of power than the Hero who has resisted the attacks of Emperor Vitiate and Sel Makor.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because most don't think highly of that era.

Biased opinions.




I'd say he is a bit higher than that but its always hard to place the protags of SWTOR.



Being weaker than Revan is nothing shameful. Revan would be a good match for Caedus and HoT isnt that far behind Revan. When supported by these 3 jedi, I don't see how Caedus can defeat HoT & Friends.

Originally posted by Sinious
Biased opinions.

Because being in favor of TOR would not also be bias. Every opinion is bias. That's why it's called an opinion.

Based on?

Again, based on what? Revan is far beyond the HoT.

Because what's prevent Caedus from picking off the weaker ones before focusing on the others?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because what's prevent Caedus from picking off the weaker ones before focusing on the others?

Presumably the stronger one's protecting them.

Caedus > Revan > HoT IMHO

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because being in favor of TOR would not also be bias. Every opinion is bias. That's why it's called an opinion.


Being in favor of TOR is not the case here. It is possible to have learned opinions based on facts.



Like I said, its hard to place the protags. Defeating a weakened Emperor and resisting his attacks along with resisting Sel Makor is above Anakin's capabilities imo. HoT's journey was the most challenging one in the game and he came through every obstacle which puts him above the other protags in my eyes and being superior to the likes of Nox is quite impressive.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Presumably the stronger one's protecting them.



Originally posted by Stigma
Caedus > Revan > HoT IMHO

Yeah but neither one of them is vastly superior to the other.

Originally posted by Sinious
Being in favor of TOR is not the case here. It is possible to have learned opinions based on facts.

And the fact that they don't match yours doesn't make it so biased it's incorrect.


It's not. Nothing's stopping Anakin from defeating a weakened Vitiate or resisting an entity everyone the HoT brings with them can resist.

Which really doesn't have anything to do with the point of being bellow Revan. Nox is also bellow Revan. I don't care about the journey if it doesn't give feats that compare.

And the HoT isn't powerful enough to protect either of the other 3. Not long enough. Braga has endurance and nothing else going for him that makes him comparable to Caedus.

Caedus being above Revan buts him far about the HoT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure you've completely failed so far in establishing really any of that in this thread. Caedus' speed feats are not magnitudes better than the Hero's, Caedus' strength feats are (I believe) rather non-existant, I highly doubt that Caedus is more durable than the Hero who wears heavy battle armor and certainly possesses some of the finest armor by the latest pe.

They were already posted and you ignore them because of the fact you want HoT to a level he isn't at. Also lmao @ being less durable than Caedus, when has the Hero fought while missing an arm, fought while having his kidney pierced, fought while having his head seared by a lightsaber blade, blown away a powerful force user while shot by a blaster bolt? Never?, ok I thought so.




Beating Mara Jade, beating Kyle Katarn, fighting evenly with Jaina Solo while dismembered, fighting evenly with Luke Skywalker, fighting 3 Jedi knights with casual ease, are superior feats to Hero beating no namers.



I've never seen Hero move 40 meter ships, shatter beskar, effortlessly move B wings, blast away Mara Jade while blowing away the rubble of two tunnels, absorb turbo laser fire, collapse a metal ceiling on top of Luke, send powerful force users like Mara Jade or Saba Sebatyne flying, or smash Luke with pieces of the embrace of pain.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's not. Nothing's stopping Anakin from defeating a weakened Vitiate or resisting an entity everyone the HoT brings with them can resist.

Anakin couldn't beat the weakened Vitiate. Not in the Dark Temple. Also Sel Makor doesn't try anything with the HoT's companion's or anyone else, so they didn't resist him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Caedus being above Revan buts him far about the HoT.

Not necessarily. I go Revan>Malgus>Vader but I don't say there's a large margin between Revan and Vader.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And the fact that they don't match yours doesn't make it so biased it's incorrect.


It's not. Nothing's stopping Anakin from defeating a weakened Vitiate or resisting an entity everyone the HoT brings with them can resist.

Which really doesn't have anything to do with the point of being bellow Revan. Nox is also bellow Revan. I don't care about the journey if it doesn't give feats that compare.

And the HoT isn't powerful enough to protect either of the other 3. Not long enough. Braga has endurance and nothing else going for him that makes him comparable to Caedus.

Caedus being above Revan buts him far about the HoT.

I agree with everything Neph said regarding your last post, so I'll respond to the ones he skipped.

You don't have to agree with me but TOR is obviously one of the most competitive eras in the mythos and if someone comes up and says being the strongest of such an era isnt remotely impressive cause they don't take TOR seriously, they won't be taken seriously as well.

Nox nevertheless would be a great challenge for Anakin and we were comparing HoT to Anakin so it matters if HoT has better achievements in the game compared to other protags.

The other 3 aren't fodder jedi. They don't need too much protection. As long as HoT tanks the direct attacks of Caedus, they can surround him and if Caedus decides to attack the weaker jedi, HoT can simply charge at him.

Caedus is one of the strongest force users in the mythos but he isnt 3 jedi masters ahead of HoT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure you've completely failed so far in establishing really any of that in this thread. Caedus' speed feats are not magnitudes better than the Hero's, Caedus' strength feats are (I believe) rather non-existant, I highly doubt that Caedus is more durable than the Hero who wears heavy battle armor and certainly possesses some of the finest armor by the latest period in TOR, in terms of skill I'm not seeing anything greater than the Hero and you've posted no feats suggesting a vast gulf in terms of power than the Hero who has resisted the attacks of Emperor Vitiate and Sel Makor.

Moving fast enough to create rays of light with his lightsaber that lit up an entire section of the Anakin Solo simultaneously is far faster than anything the Hero of Tython has done. The evidence is all over the thread you simply refuse to acknowledge said feats.

Caedus' strength feats are non-existent? good lord read the novels, he has smashed through Mandalorian iron before on more than one occasion.

Durable physically, the Hero cannot tank lightsabers through the gut, losing an arm or better yet survive his body overloading with energy.

Right let's all assume Hero of Tython can duel with the likes of Luke Skywalker whom wrecked DE Sidious in a pure duel decades before Caedus was gaining an advantage on Luke and pressing it, injuring him severely. #TORLogic

Why is it everyone assumes Hero is a Mace Windu or better in dueling skill? he's at the very best a Kenobi and that is generous.

Because the Hero of Tython has never faced any of the techniques that Caedus can abuse in this contest. Maybe he will sever them from the Force, he's done so to Ben repeatedly. Maybe he'll send an electrical charge through their spinal cords and paralyse them long enough to end it. Maybe he'll summon illusions to plague their minds, illusions far more complex than Vitiate's are.

I'm just scraping the tip of the iceberg here concerning Caedus, what is his opponents going to do? subdue him with the Force? good luck with that. Out-duel him? Caedus is demonstratively on par with Luke and Darth Sidious.

Not a single one of these are good enough for taking on a combatant with the pure skill, raw power and esoteric techniques that Caedus has to dish out.

On the other hand you have failed to provide skill feats that place the Hero anywhere near the likes of Kenobi, Windu or Yoda nevermind Luke or Sidious.

I have played through Jedi Knight at least six times and the only feat of that playthrough that gives him lee-way is tanking a weakened Voice of the Emperor's FLS attacks. Nothing else comes close.

@ Ancient, good job all around.

In particular:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Why is it everyone assumes Hero is a Mace Windu or better in dueling skill? he's at the very best a Kenobi and that is generous.


In all honesty, I don't see HoT beating Kenobi in a sabers fight.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm just scraping the tip of the iceberg here concerning Caedus, what is his opponents going to do? subdue him with the Force? good luck with that. Out-duel him? Caedus is demonstratively on par with Luke and Darth Sidious.




and...

Originally posted by AncientPower
#TORLogic

Scourge and tons of featless Sith lords >>>>>>>>>> Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by carthage
Scourge and tons of featless Sith lords >>>>>>>>>> Luke Skywalker

10/10

Originally posted by AncientPower
Moving fast enough to create rays of light with his lightsaber that lit up an entire section of the Anakin Solo simultaneously is far faster than anything the Hero of Tython has done. The evidence is all over the thread you simply refuse to acknowledge said feats.

I don't see how that's necessarily faster than blitzing Sith Warriors, or at least far faster. Also I don't think that's actually a speed feat? Why would going faster make your lightsaber light places up?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus' strength feats are non-existent? good lord read the novels, he has smashed through Mandalorian iron before on more than one occasion.

Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Durable physically, the Hero cannot tank lightsabers through the gut, losing an arm or better yet survive his body overloading with energy.

The definition of durability is to resist wear and tear, not merely survive it. Caedus gets regularly shredded, he can just withstand injuries. The Hero on the other hand is certainly the more durable of the two. Put in the same positions it's likely that her armor would have prevented those injuries. We know that TOR era armor can repel lightsaber strikes, weapons fire and explosives.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Right let's all assume Hero of Tython can duel with the likes of Luke Skywalker whom wrecked DE Sidious in a pure duel decades before Caedus was gaining an advantage on Luke and pressing it, injuring him severely. #TORLogic

Lumiya can also duel with Luke, as can many others as well. Jacen also admits that he's have trouble overcoming Saba in a fight and displayed troubel dealing with Mara and Jaina. I see no reason to think that the Hero could at least duel with Luke and Caedus, even if she might not win.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Why is it everyone assumes Hero is a Mace Windu or better in dueling skill? he's at the very best a Kenobi and that is generous.

Because she's the best duelist in the TOR era? Stated to have legendary prowess and unrivaled reflexes? Defeated Scourge and many other premier duelists of the age. Personally I wouldn't say that Caedus is more skilled than Windu or Kenobi either. His fight with Luke was barely a lightsaber fight and both relied far more on punches, elbows and kicks as well as the environment than their blades. Luke also wasn't thinking clearly and seemed to kind of want to get hurt, plus he was still recovering from other injuries.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because the Hero of Tython has never faced any of the techniques that Caedus can abuse in this contest. Maybe he will sever them from the Force, he's done so to Ben repeatedly. Maybe he'll send an electrical charge through their spinal cords and paralyse them long enough to end it. Maybe he'll summon illusions to plague their minds, illusions far more complex than Vitiate's are.

Caedus never used sever force on anyone in combat and only against Ben, a padawan. It's foolish to think he could do so against seasoned Jedi Masters. Who comes from an order reborn from the Exile, a Jedi with extensive training and experience in force severing. Also it's very unlikely that Caedus could do that thing with the lightning. All the Jedi here are wearing battle armor that Caedus' lightning isn't powerful enough to punch through. And no way is Caedus affecting anyone's mind with the Hero of Tython around. Also feats for Jacen's illusions? That's a huge claim to make. Can you back it up?

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm just scraping the tip of the iceberg here concerning Caedus, what is his opponents going to do? subdue him with the Force? good luck with that. Out-duel him? Caedus is demonstratively on par with Luke and Darth Sidious.

I'm thinking a combination of those two. With Caedus repeatedly getting his attacks blocked and swamped by Jedi until he's overwhelmed.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not a single one of these are good enough for taking on a combatant with the pure skill, raw power and esoteric techniques that Caedus has to dish out.

It's a good thing it's 4 on 1 then, huh?

Originally posted by AncientPower
On the other hand you have failed to provide skill feats that place the Hero anywhere near the likes of Kenobi, Windu or Yoda nevermind Luke or Sidious.

Well Caedus isn't as skilled as Luke and Sidious either so ho hum. His duel with Luke displayed extraordinarily little skill on either side. It wasn't a standard lightsaber duel, but a brawl in the dark in a cramped environment with many different factors coming to play.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have played through Jedi Knight at least six times and the only feat of that playthrough that gives him lee-way is tanking a weakened Voice of the Emperor's FLS attacks. Nothing else comes close.

Jesus, why would you play it that much? It took me dozens of hours to get through that campaign, what are you masochistic?

Originally posted by Nephthys
His duel with Luke displayed extraordinarily little skill on either side. It wasn't a standard lightsaber duel, but a brawl in the dark in a cramped environment with many different factors coming to play.

This is true. Still, it was essentially a bloodlusted Luke who was going for the kill, sank a few centimeters of his saber into Jacen's kidney before the fight began, and then he still kept up.

Luke beat his ass pretty good, though.

Lol, no. You clearly don't know shit about what defines skill.

Look up 'simultaneously', lighting up an entire section of the Anakin Solo a 1600 meter Star Destroyer is a huge after-image feat. We could also take a look at him formimg an ever present fan of light with his saber.

It wasn't shatterpoint.

Durability is an umbrella term, Caedus can take severe immolation and still be brutal.

Lumiya could fight an early Luke when she had the advantage of her weapon. Saba is horribly under-rated considering her own extreme power in the Force so that really isn't much of anything. Mara could never take on Caedus in a proper one-on-one fight, that was made abudantly clear, she could only batman him to death.

Scourge doesn't come close to the likes of Kenobi, the greatest Soresu practitioner ever, in lightsaber skill. Whereas Caedus has demonstrated absolute dominance in actual dueling and speed in dueling over a major list of opponents, including Jaina, Katarn and more.

Oh and that is off by quite a bit, Luke and Caedus for quite a considerable amount of time before it devolved into a senseless brawl. Also, Luke did not want to get injured, on the contrary he was completely on the defensive and was trying to protect his son.

Ben was far from just a Padawan at that point, he was being groomed as an apprentice and Caedus displayed full mastery of the technique, not just able to sever him repeatedly but restore that connection at will. He has also displayed the mastery required to perform the same on himself. It is definitely within his repertoire.

What? He doesn't attack them with Force Lightning he can summon electrical surges in his opponents that paralyse their spinal cords, which would at the very least take the HoT's allies out, but I'm just yet again being generous.

Too bad none of those Jedi have actual feats on a tier close to Caedus.

When three of them are essentially irrelevant then that is a moot point.

Except he is, you've overblown the martial aspect of that fight considerably. You've also managed to forget to note how impressive it is that Caedus can take on his uncle in a fist fight considering Luke has the best augmentatiom feats in the lore. But that's okay.

Caedus is confirmed to be a superior duelist than Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn and Jaina. Considering that Mara Jade in her youth was taking on Vader without getting steamrolled decades before her prime is an enormous sign of skill. She has been repeatedly stated to have some of the best combat skills in the New Jedi Order, yet head on she would lose to Caedus.

Kyle Katarn is a battlemaster with a considerable list of skill feats and has proven he is one of the greatest combatants in the Order. His talents as a lightsaber instructor infact stated to be as good a job as Luke could have done.
Kyp Durron wasn't afraid to acknowledge Katarn either.

Jaina Solo of course is not long after killing Caedus repeatedly suggested throughout Fate of the Jedi to be almost peerless with her lightsaber and infact is compared to Luke more than once. Noting of course that Fate of the Jedi is not as far ahead of Legacy of the Force as some believe.

I have done each class bar Smuggler at least 5 times each and have a detailed memory of all the game's events. I recently finished all 3.0 content for all classes and Nox to my delight is being blatantly set-up for most powerful protag.

Wtf? How are you even making an argument? Caedus lived through, withstood, and even fought harder in spite of those injuries? How is that not the definition of durable, and where and when has Hero's armor enabled him to withstand debilitating lightsaber blows? Having armor simply wouldn't make you more durable, lol.



Lumiya has consistently been able to fight evenly with Luke 3-4 times, that in no way contradicts Jacen's showing. All he said was he'd have difficulty beating Saba, and his own musing is contradicted by the fact he sent Saba flying into an explosion by TKing her and then engaging Luke.



Braga and Darach are useless, and the other two he can stomp without much difficulty.





facepalm

Hero has no feats to compare, and lmao at your mere opinion he isn't as skilled as either. Last time I checked Hero has only beaten fodder Sith and featless characters, unless you have someone he has beaten in a lightsaber skill that compares to fighting Luke- you have no case.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Look up 'simultaneously', lighting up an entire section of the Anakin Solo a 1600 meter Star Destroyer is a huge after-image feat. We could also take a look at him formimg an ever present fan of light with his saber.
I don't get the relevance of this event.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It wasn't shatterpoint.
What is it?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Durability is an umbrella term, Caedus can take severe immolation and still be brutal.
Hero of Tython demonstrated sufficient stamina and durability to fight through the Kaas's landscape and approach the Emperor's Voice and win. This entire struggle alone puts him on par with the greatest of the warriors of the mythos.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lumiya could fight an early Luke when she had the advantage of her weapon. Saba is horribly under-rated considering her own extreme power in the Force so that really isn't much of anything. Mara could never take on Caedus in a proper one-on-one fight, that was made abudantly clear, she could only batman him to death.
Early Luke? How early? Before Luke disarmed Sidious in a duel? No.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Scourge doesn't come close to the likes of Kenobi, the greatest Soresu practitioner ever, in lightsaber skill. Whereas Caedus has demonstrated absolute dominance in actual dueling and speed in dueling over a major list of opponents, including Jaina, Katarn and more.
Excuse me? Emperor's Wrath is among the most battle-tested and proven warriors of the mythos. His kill record alone puts the likes of Obi-Wan to shame.

Obi-Wan being an arguably unparalleled expert of Form III means jack.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and that is off by quite a bit, Luke and Caedus for quite a considerable amount of time before it devolved into a senseless brawl. Also, Luke did not want to get injured, on the contrary he was completely on the defensive and was trying to protect his son.
Luke went easy on Caedus because of his son. How many times I have to elaborate this?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ben was far from just a Padawan at that point, he was being groomed as an apprentice and Caedus displayed full mastery of the technique, not just able to sever him repeatedly but restore that connection at will. He has also displayed the mastery required to perform the same on himself. It is definitely within his repertoire.
Why didn't Caedus just sever the connections of Mara, Jaina, and several Jedi who contended with him, if this was easy for him?

Originally posted by AncientPower
What? He doesn't attack them with Force Lightning he can summon electrical surges in his opponents that paralyse their spinal cords, which would at the very least take the HoT's allies out, but I'm just yet again being generous.
You mistake HoT's allies for being mooks. They are among the Order's finest as well.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Too bad none of those Jedi have actual feats on a tier close to Caedus.
Right.......

Originally posted by AncientPower
When three of them are essentially irrelevant then that is a moot point.
This Strike Team is too much for Caedus actually. HoT alone is good enough for him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except he is, you've overblown the martial aspect of that fight considerably. You've also managed to forget to note how impressive it is that Caedus can take on his uncle in a fist fight considering Luke has the best augmentatiom feats in the lore. But that's okay.
And nobody have ever managed to take on Luke in a confrontation, right?

Don't be surprised if HoT manages to take on Luke too.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Caedus is confirmed to be a superior duelist than Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn and Jaina. Considering that Mara Jade in her youth was taking on Vader without getting steamrolled decades before her prime is an enormous sign of skill. She has been repeatedly stated to have some of the best combat skills in the New Jedi Order, yet head on she would lose to Caedus.
She never fought Vader in the manner you are trying to imply.

Mara's good decision-making potential served her well.

Though, I don't think that the hypothetical Jedi Strike Team comprises of idiots. They are not lacking in power either.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Kyle Katarn is a battlemaster with a considerable list of skill feats and has proven he is one of the greatest combatants in the Order. His talents as a lightsaber instructor infact stated to be as good a job as Luke could have done.
Kyp Durron wasn't afraid to acknowledge Katarn either.
Kao Cen Darach is also a battlemaster and with superior on-screen dueling feats then Katarn.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Jaina Solo of course is not long after killing Caedus repeatedly suggested throughout Fate of the Jedi to be almost peerless with her lightsaber and infact is compared to Luke more than once. Noting of course that Fate of the Jedi is not as far ahead of Legacy of the Force as some believe.
Hyperbole

Originally posted by AncientPower
I have done each class bar Smuggler at least 5 times each and have a detailed memory of all the game's events. I recently finished all 3.0 content for all classes and Nox to my delight is being blatantly set-up for most powerful protag.
Good news.

I really see what you mean about it being impossible to argue for SWTOR when Legend makes posts like that, Jesus H Christ.

The irony in him calling AP's accolades hyperbolic, tho...

Originally posted by Selenial
I really see what you mean about it being impossible to argue for SWTOR when Legend makes posts like that, Jesus H Christ.
You have the option to refute my points, if you can.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The irony in him calling AP's accolades hyperbolic, tho...
Show me those accolades.

Why would either of us? We aren't debating with you.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why would either of us? We aren't debating with you.

It's just fun to watch.

Unfortunately I refuse to 'debate' with persons such as him, they take every norm of debating and defecate upon them to their own liking.

Frankly arguing that anyone bar Vitiate and Revan are Caedus tier is absolutely horrific logic in and of itself.

Are Neph's "arguments" really more compelling?

Neph can concede in debates and/or change his mind admirable traits, hence the difference.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Neph can concede in debates and/or change his mind admirable traits, hence the difference.
The irony

Are you flexible yourself? You are extremely rigid in your beliefs as well.

Many of your points lack in accuracy.

You calling out anyone for anything that includes bias, rigidity, hard-headedness and accuracy in debates is like Nicholas Cage calling out someone for over-acting.

Here is a summary of mindset of fans of Legacy era characters.

Observation: Lumiya defeated Luke

Excuse of Legacy era fans: Luke lost because of unfamiliarity with combat style of Lumiya

Crucial observations overlooked by Legacy era fans:

- Luke disarmed Sidious earlier (his power and skills were not lacking)
- Mara never lost to Lumiya

---

Observation: Nyax's powers proved to be too much for Luke to handle

Excuse of Legacy era fans: Nyax drew power from the nexus

Crucial observation overlooked by Legacy era fans:

- Luke had help from 2 more Jedi
- The Jedi also drew power from nexus after Luke's insistence
- Nyax was potentially stronger then any Jedi of his era

---

Observation: Caedus injured Luke in a duel

Hype from Legacy era fans: Caedus > TOR era champions

Crucial observations overlooked by Legacy era fans:

- Luke have limitations and history of failures in combat situations

Observation: Shimrra overwhelmed Luke but the Jedi got the opportunity to win due to additional lightsaber tossed towards him by Jacen that Luke pulled from Shimrra's grasp and the tide shifted.

Misrepresentation of Legacy era fans: Luke defeated Shimrra without any problems

---

Observation: Luke and Krayt fought Abeloth and did equally well, in-fact Krayt demonstrated superior durability.

Hype from Legacy era fans: Luke >>>>>>>> Krayt anyways

---

I can mention more gems.

But nope. TOR era fans are devoid of logic and have made this era undesirable for others to debate.

I''ve been following the debate for a while, and I think most of us (with notable exceptions, unfortunately) can agree that:

- Caedus is demonstrably in Luke/Sidious/Yoda tier in sabers
- Caedus's force feats outstrip those of the TOR team by a fair amount

With this in mind, Caedus wins the fight easily.

Originally posted by Stigma
I''ve been following the debate for a while, and I think most of us (with notable exceptions, unfortunately) can agree that:

- Caedus is demonstrably in Luke/Sidious/Yoda tier in sabers
- Caedus's force feats outstrip those of the TOR team by a fair amount

With this in mind, Caedus wins the fight easily. Agreed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is a summary of mindset of fans of Legacy era characters.

Observation: Lumiya defeated Luke

Excuse of Legacy era fans: Luke lost because of unfamiliarity with combat style of Lumiya

Crucial observations overlooked by Legacy era fans:

- Luke disarmed Sidious earlier (his power and skills were not lacking)
- Mara never lost to Lumiya

---

She defeated him only in his early career shortly after RotJ. In NJO she never defeated him. Only gravely injured him because he got distracted by Alima's anger projection and she struck in that moment. He steal won the fight though.


Nyax is a 3 meter hulk who had his already high potential vastly increased through cybernetics and other experiments. Nothing wrong with him being more powerful and more physucally capable in combat than Luke. Who even claimed that it is due to nexus? :/ Regardless, Luke needing help to defeat Nyax =/= Luke wouldn't beat lets say Vitiate.


Not really an argument. By this logic any feat can be discarded because all characters have limitations. It is irrelevant whether Caedus was able to injure Luke. What matter is that they fought on even terms.


Oh I remember you talking something about me embarassing myself. Again, Luke had no help from Jacen whatsoever. You got it totally wrong. It was Luke who threw Jacen's lightsaber to Jacen. But Jacen failed to catch it and it reminded him of his dream from Balance Point. Shimra took out Anakin's lightsaber out of his pocket and Luke summoned it with Force. Regardless, Luke fought Shimra after killing countless vongs and majority of Slayers. Luke even struggled to finish last Slayer despite, despite the fact that he killed multiple of them in simultaneous combat before that, you can't ignore fatigue factor.


Personally I put Krayt on Sidious level or possibly above. Agree with you on this one.

Originally posted by Stigma
I''ve been following the debate for a while, and I think most of us (with notable exceptions, unfortunately) can agree that:

- Caedus is demonstrably in Luke/Sidious/Yoda tier in sabers
- Caedus's force feats outstrip those of the TOR team by a fair amount

With this in mind, Caedus wins the fight easily.
Most of us? Fans of Legacy era characters are really overreaching with Caedus.

- Yes, Caedus can be regarded as among the top duelists of the mythos. However, it is a stretch to assume that nobody from TOR era can compete with the likes of Caedus, Luke, Sidious and Yoda in martial aspects of combat.

- Caedus is among the best explored characters of the mythos. He benefits from this exposure in versus debates. This doesn't means that he can take on a Strike Team of some of the greatest Jedi in history and win.

--

HoT have history of defeating many powerful and notable opponents and noted for his immense power and exceptional martial prowess within the lore.

Braga is among the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order.

Zallow blitzed two battle-hardened Sith warriors and overwhelmed Lord Adraas.

Darach demonstrated unparalleled dueling ability in technical context on-screen. He managed to fight two powerful Sith Lords (one of them was already among the greatest warriors of the Empire) simultaneously and overwhelmed both. Darach's on-screen feats are also decent.

--

I don't think that any Jedi in this Strike Team is inferior than Kyle Katarn and Caedus cannot realistically take on 4 Katarn-level or superior opponents and win.

I cant believe this thread is still going on

Originally posted by carthage
I cant believe this thread is still going on
This is a discussion forum, right?

It doesn't matters how many pages a thread spans. Illogical assessments of some fans will be addressed.

More hilarious is that SWL unwittingly makes an argument that Krayt is above Vitiate. It's as follows:

Krayt = Luke > Sidious > Vitiate

Yet another Sith Lord better than Viti

Vitiate(Book not game version) > Luke(FTJ version) > (Sidious book version) > Krayt

Originally posted by zEniX
Vitiate(Book not game version) > Luke(FTJ version) > (Sidious book version) > Krayt
Nah.

Kenobi (ghost version) > Ahsoka (hentai version) > Vitiate (any version)

Originally posted by Stigma
Nah.

Kenobi (ghost version) > Ahsoka (hentai version) > Vitiate (any version)

Pretty sure Ahsoka (hentai version) > Kenobi (ghost version)

Originally posted by zEniX
Pretty sure Ahsoka (hentai version) > Kenobi (ghost version)
Kenobi is a smug beast, he can do things that even Vader "cannot possibly imagine".

To Ahsoka?

To all of us

Originally posted by Stigma
More hilarious is that SWL unwittingly makes an argument that Krayt is above Vitiate. It's as follows:

Krayt = Luke > Sidious > Vitiate

Yet another Sith Lord better than Viti
Krayt definately is above Vitiate because he is not only immensely powerful in his own right, he is also an exceptionally skilled combatant, while Vitiate is just a power bully who's sole tactic in all fights is to simply overpower his opponents.

Im not opposed to the notion that Krayt > Vitiate. I entertain the idea since SWL made this argument.

Yeah, was just sharing my opinion.