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HTH battle only. Who wins?

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/STLS_zpsyixqoad6.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/LS_zpspgzjhta0.jpg

Steel Serpent.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Steel Serpent.

Reasons?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Reasons? he tussles with danny on a regular basis, displayed the ability to sap people's life forces in Danny's newest book, has incredible pain tolerance, and his striking power and skill are enough to reasonably put him above shiva.

Originally posted by deathslash
he tussles with danny on a regular basis, displayed the ability to sap people's life forces in Danny's newest book, has incredible pain tolerance, and his striking power and skill are enough to reasonably put him above shiva.

This is just a HTH battle. Shiva is better than Batman, Richard, and pretty much anyone not named Val in the DCU. I think she can compete.

Originally posted by Golgo13
This is just a HTH battle. Shiva is better than Batman, Richard, and pretty much anyone not named Val in the DCU. I think she can compete. Batman isn't the end all, be all martial artist though. If there's a credible source that shows that she's a better martial artist that Richard Dragon, I'd like to see it (because this is the first time I've heard of it). She's been knocked out by both batman and talia al ghul before, and had a hard enough time with conner hawk as well to support my belief that serpent can beat her.

Originally posted by deathslash
Batman isn't the end all, be all martial artist though. If there's a credible source that shows that she's a better martial artist that Richard Dragon, I'd like to see it (because this is the first time I've heard of it). She's been knocked out by both batman and talia al ghul before, and had a hard enough time with conner hawk as well to support my belief that serpent can beat her. Connor Hawke was also able to stalemate Cassandra Cain while holding back so he's no slouch

Still Steel Serpent wins as most if not all the Immortal Weapons would since they have ridiculous chi based abilities that put them above most human martial artist

Steel Serpent vs someone like Michael Lane would of been a better match IMO

Originally posted by deathslash
Batman isn't the end all, be all martial artist though. If there's a credible source that shows that she's a better martial artist that Richard Dragon, I'd like to see it (because this is the first time I've heard of it). She's been knocked out by both batman and talia al ghul before, and had a hard enough time with conner hawk as well to support my belief that serpent can beat her.

Batman stalemated 3boot Karate Kid in the air. Think about that for a second.

BTW, are you talking about the time when Gorilla Grodd was controlling Shiva? Batman admitted that she could be better than him in pure marital arts.

Originally posted by Golgo13
BTW, are you talking about the time when Gorilla Grodd was controlling Shiva? Batman admitted that she could be better than him in pure marital arts. Could be but probably isn't, I'd put Shiva on par with Batman in fighting skill. That's still saying a lot.

Originally posted by Vixal1
Could be but probably isn't, I'd put Shiva on par with Batman in fighting skill. That's still saying a lot.

Who do you think wins between Davos and Shiva? Purely a HTH match?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Who do you think wins between Davos and Shiva? Purely a HTH match? Without chi it's hard to say since the Immortal Weapons all fought with super natural abilities like being able to absorb Danny's chi to have a gauge on their raw hand to hand abilities. I could say Shiva simply because she has more showings of raw H2H skill without any augmentation, unless there are some feats to support the Immortal Weapons raw hand to hand ability.

Steel Serpent. Based on the fact that in the scan Lady Shiva's right hand seems to be made of Plasticine.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Batman stalemated 3boot Karate Kid in the air. Think about that for a second. PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.

Originally posted by deathslash
PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.

Yep.

And conversely, Iron Fist being able to legit hang with Spidey level speed/agility is pretty well established.

While you can't use ABC logic and assume Davos is the same, his fight with Spidey holds more credibility then Bats stalemating Val because the fact he's basically the reverse Iron Fist..

Originally posted by deathslash
PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.

I love Val, but I wouldn't say he's hundreds of leagues above him. When Batman first met Val, he was considered an 8-10 (Some scale he was reading on a computer), while Val was a 12 or something. Even then, he still hanged with Karate Kid, despite Val taking his utility belt. This was basically classic Val.

Then he met 3boot Val and stalemated him in an air fight. Remember, 3boot Val isn't on the same level as classic.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I love Val, but I wouldn't say he's hundreds of leagues above him. When Batman first met Val, he was considered an 8-10 (Some scale he was reading on a computer), while Val was a 12 or something. Even then, he still hanged with Karate Kid, despite Val taking his utility belt. This was basically classic Val.

Then he met 3boot Val and stalemated him in an air fight. Remember, 3boot Val isn't on the same level as classic. I dunno, Geoff Johns has pretty much confirmed that the Legion's pre crisis history is canon, they reference the Great Darkness Saga several times. It just lacks the cartoonish presence that comics in the 60's and 70's had.

3boot Val can still hang with a post crisis Kryptonian.

Saying even 3boot Val is hundreds of leagues above Batman, is being kind to Batman.

Originally posted by deathslash
PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.

He's the goddamned Batman, after all.

The Batman fights were definite PIS, and they were still better showings for Val then the post crisis team ups, when Val struggled with common street thugs in their teamups..

Originally posted by cdtm
3boot Val can still hang with a post crisis Kryptonian.

Saying even 3boot Val is hundreds of leagues above Batman, is being kind to Batman.

When did he do that?

Originally posted by Golgo13
When did he do that?

Sparring sessions with Ultra Boy. He can only use one power at a time, but they're all at Kryptonian level.

He's fast enough to dodge hyper speed, and strong enough to do this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/38359/1261866-1254347_karate_kid_s_control_super.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30145/2358553-kk_v_ultra_boy_.jpg

Also:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30145/2358557-kk_vs_micro_lad_.jpg

Ultraboy isn't Kryptonian level, though. I'd peg Supergirl and Superboy ahead of him.

Still, farrrr above Bats....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still, farrrr above Bats....

He's had similar feats. Like what he did to Lobo and SHAZAM.

Originally posted by Golgo13
He's had similar feats. Like what he did to Lobo and SHAZAM. bring out as many PIS feats as you want to. Bruce still isn't even close to Val's level and never will be.

Originally posted by deathslash
bring out as many PIS feats as you want to. Bruce still isn't even close to Val's level and never will be.

So, Val gets the free pass for PIS feats, but Bruce doesn't? :/

Originally posted by Golgo13
So, Val gets the free pass for PIS feats, but Bruce doesn't? :/ future martial arts and martial arts styles from different cultures and alien races make his feats far easier to believe than Bruce's idiotic "they forget their superpowers when they're around me" ability.

Originally posted by Golgo13
So, Val gets the free pass for PIS feats, but Bruce doesn't? :/ Isn't that Karate Kid's thing, though? Like a less extreme form of Squirrel Girl. That's who they are. Since it is consistent for their character, you can't argue PIS.

Originally posted by ODG
Isn't that Karate Kid's thing, though? Like a less extreme form of Squirrel Girl. That's who they are. Since it is consistent for their character, you can't argue PIS.

He's never outright beaten a Kryptonians though. The closest was when he managed to grapple one to the ground.

Originally posted by ODG
Isn't that Karate Kid's thing, though? Like a less extreme form of Squirrel Girl. That's who they are. Since it is consistent for their character, you can't argue PIS.

And especially when he has other feats to back it up, like karate chopping diamonds, kicking through force fields, or breaking out of inertron super metal restraints (The same kind of metal they line Validus's cell with, in greater amounts).

And like you say, his Kryptonian fighting is well established. It was the entire reason he made the cut for the losh. Calling it PIS is like claiming Superman leaping tall buildings is PIS, as they've both been doing their thing since day one.

Originally posted by Golgo13
He's never outright beaten a Kryptonians though. The closest was when he managed to grapple one to the ground.

Actually, he did manage to take out Superboy once, in his mini series back in the pre crisis era, along with fighting half a dozen or so other Legionnaires.

Originally posted by cdtm
Actually, he did manage to take out Superboy once, in his mini series back in the pre crisis era, along with fighting half a dozen or so other Legionnaires.

Wasn't that just a sparring match in a ring?