Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

During his cloning experiments, Sidious clones himself, but the clone has the same memories, skill, power and mastery.
Now the universe trembles in fear of not one, but two Sidiouses.

In order to rule the universe forever both travel through time and need to face the following teams.

Who can stop 2 DE Sidiouses ?

* All characters are at their peak.
* In CW era Sidiouses kidnap Padme, as they think it would aid them in their fight.

1. Ancient Sith: Exar Kun, Ulic, Nihilus and Traya
2. TOR Era: Vitiate, Revan, Malgus and Nox
3. Banite Sith: Bane, Zannah, Tenebrous and Plagueis
4. CW Era: Yoda, Mace, Dooku and Zone Anakin
5. NJO Era: Luke, Caedus, Durron and Katarn

Boss: Ahsoka and Abeloth

Stop at Abeloth

What about #5? Luke can take one DE Sids, while the other battles the trio Caedus/Durron/Katarn.

tbh I completely overlooked that round. Katarn is irrelevant but Caedus and Durron is a very problematic duo.

Originally posted by ILS
tbh I completely overlooked that round. Katarn is irrelevant but Caedus and Durron is a very problematic duo.
Yeah, I'm thinking Luke edges out DE Sidious overall.

But, can Durron/Caedus take down the other DE Sids? I have a gut feeling they can, but one of them (most probably Durron) dies.

5

1 TBH,.

Boba Fett with a ysalamiri.

Originally posted by ILS
Stop at Abeloth
2 DE Sidiouses can take Abeloth, tbh. Ahsoka is irrelevant.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
2 DE Sidiouses can take Abeloth, tbh. Ahsoka is irrelevant.

Nah.

Originally posted by Selenial
Nah. Indeed.

Ahsoka has her part to play.

Your opinion is gross.

Loose at one. Nihilus slurps them both and then everyone else in the galaxy

Stop at 5. Luke can solo one, and Caedus and Kyp are just enough to hold off another. Katarn is useless.

Also! Full Potential Anakin draws this fight, due to Lucas's 'twice the power of Sidious' comment.

I'm actually not sure if they could take Aboleth. What Ashoka is doing helping Aboleth, I've no idea, she's entirely irrelevant.

2 DE Sidious lose hard every round of this gauntlet.

Originally posted by ILS
tbh I completely overlooked that round. Katarn is irrelevant but Caedus and Durron is a very problematic duo.

Are we talking about the same Kyp who couldn't even beat a single Alpha-Red infected Slayer on his own? Where a pre-LotF Luke could fight a half dozen easily by himself?

Originally posted by Kallig
Are we talking about the same Kyp who couldn't even beat a single Alpha-Red infected Slayer on his own? Where a pre-LotF Luke could fight a half dozen easily by himself? The same Kyp who could manipulate pseudo-black holes, yeah.

He also TKed an entire freighter, he could ragdoll every TOR protag and sip a martini while doing it

Shaken, not stirred, of course. It's a pity somebody more useful wasn't picked in Katarn's place. Jaina's probably the best bet. Though Mara CERTAINLY wants a crack at her old master.

Katarns NOT that bad people

Originally posted by ILS
The same Kyp who could manipulate pseudo-black holes, yeah.

So could Jaina, Jacen, and even Mara.

His fight with the Vong Slayer well late into the story of Vong War and couldn't beat a single one a duel, the same one who had been exposed and infected by the Alpha-Red virus.

That's the first I've heard of them manipulating the micro black holes or the Vong who wrecked Kyp also being hindered by a virus.

The Slayer was hindered but the people he mentioned never manipulated the dovin basals.

Jacen and Jaina both could, including using the shadow bombs to TK unactivated proton torpedoes into Vong warships.

Originally posted by Trocity
The Slayer was hindered but the people he mentioned never manipulated the dovin basals. I like this post, I'm going to go with this one

Originally posted by ILS
That's the first I've heard of them manipulating the micro black holes or the Vong who wrecked Kyp also being hindered by a virus.

Actually curious about these black hole feats for anyone in general

Were these real black holes, or pseudo black holes (think Blackbeard from One Piece for an extreme example of fake singularity)?

There were micro-singularities created artificially, they aren't remotely close to real black holes. The best feat was Luke meditating and inverting a larger then standard one on one of the Yuuzhan Vong's war beasts to cause it destroy large segments of a massive Reptoid/Vong army I think on Dantooine.

The first time that Luke used and concentrated Force energy this way nearly burned him out.

The best rate of quantifying this feats is how the larger and greater analog a warship's dovin basal's are, the more powerful they are. The ones on a frigate would be more impressive then the one's on fighters or corvettes. I think one of Luke's better TK feats was throwing a shadow bomb with his telekinesis so powerfully it was hitting a respectable "fraction" of the speed of light into a large Vong warship.

All I know about them is what I got from Kyp's respect thread on comic vine. The same user who posted his thread also posted ones for Jaina and Mara, so I find it kind of hard to believe that he managed to include Kyp manipulating the basal's but not them.

To be fair, he didn't even get Kyp's, though. Someone in the comments gave it to him.

****ers making these threads are far from infallible

Kallig isn't either, but either he remembered something the other dude didn't notice or he misremembered

Wouldn't say it matters much if they're not genuine singularities though

Teams 2 and 3 will win without any problems.
Teams 1 and 4 win with very narrow victories.
Team 5 could go either way.
Boss Curb stomps

Originally posted by zEniX
Teams 2 and 3 will win without any problems.
Team 3 has Bane and Zannah. Fail.

Clear 1 and 2.
Might lose 3 because of Tenebrous and Plagueis, although they are featless.
Definitely lose 4 and 5.
Win the boss, unless Abeloth turns Ahsoka into second Abeloth.

Sidious couldn't take Plagueis in a fair fight alone and Tenebrous is only slightly below him. Also I'm not sure how or why people think Bane and Zannah are so under powered.

TPM Sidious couldn't take Plagueis in single combat. He's gotten significantly stronger then his former master since then. By the time of Dark Empire, he can kill Plaguies and Tenebrous by himself.

I don't count dark empire as cannon as the books basically don't sooooo....

Also comic feats pretty much have to get nerf'd to cross over do to sensationalism even if you want to include it.

Yeah, you're going to have a big problem if you think that and try to compare books vs. comic feats in battle threads.

Originally posted by zEniX
I don't count dark empire as cannon as the books basically don't sooooo....
Actually, I recall numerous novelizations, sourcebooks, and encyclopedias referencing Dark Empire.

I'm fine with problems. More to the point though there is a lot of book evidence about Sidious's power level from comparisons ect. that doesn't even remotely match what was done in the comics. Which actually goes for a bunch of characters. Hence my opinion.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Actually, I recall numerous novelizations, sourcebooks, and encyclopedias referencing Dark Empire.

The novels only mention the emperor reborn and Luke falling to the dark side. The power feats from everyone are never mentioned or alluded to because they don't fit.

Do remember this is the EU forum, so trying to play the 'But Legends isn't canon anymore!' card is useless. Particularly since the thread is about Dark Empire Sidious to begin with.

He must be measured within the power levels of the comic he comes from, and given full credit.

This was originally posted here and shows my point quite well. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-531344-fotj-luke-skywalker-vs-de-darth-sidious.html

"You mean all those Force abilities Sidious can purportedly utilize as well, given the canonical statement in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that posits Sidious can use nearly every power, while simultaneously granting him the latitude to pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity? Not to mention the line in that very same sourcebook that affirms the ambiguous genetic manipulation of Palpatine's clone bodies--distinct from Carnor Jax's sabotage (in case there is any confusion).

Oh my. When will you people learn to understand the concept of analyzing the source material.

The DE sourcebook was written when almost no EU material existed. The stuff released so far was (afaik) Timothy Zahns Thrawn trilogy, and the DE comics themselves. We neither had ancient Sith, nor Sith magic, nor fancy computer game heroes / villains and force powers established in the KotoR / Jedi Knight games.

At that point in time, Sidious - besides Vader - was the only Sith Lord known. So - obviously - he was capable of using all Dark Side powers, as there was nothing in that department existing outside of his persona. Sidious was the embodyment of the Dark Side. with everyone else just being his minions.

You belive that still is valid after the release of tons and tons of additional force material, including ritual based Sith magic and other stuff? If that's the case, you may want to have a look at the TOTJ Sourcebook which "canonically" claims that Freedon Nadd can use every light side and dark side power presented in that piece of literature, including force storms.

So Nadd > Sidious?"

DE Sidious is just fundamentally problematic.

DE Sidious is strong, but hes not top 5 strong.

Originally posted by Board Walker
DE Sidious is strong, but hes not top 5 strong.

And Revan is, right?

Lol. DE Sidious is firmly #2 in the mythos. (Not including Mortis or Bedlam types)

Originally posted by Board Walker
DE Sidious is strong, but hes not top 5 strong.

Who is top 5?

Revan, Revan, Revan, Nihilus, and Revan.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Lol. DE Sidious is firmly #2 in the mythos. (Not including Mortis or Bedlam types)

To name a few of the many people above DE Sidious there is Luke, Revan, Nihilus, and Vitiate.

You were right 1 time in 4. (Luke.)

DE sidious is pretty weak in terms of combat, bested by DE era luke, Caedus far surpassed DE Sidious.

I do hope you're just trolling.

No he's not that is the problem with a lot of the source books / comics. They end up with a A>B>C>A type of issue. (Based on raw power not strengths and weaknesses.) DE Luke > DE Sidious. But we also know from the books that Caedus is almost maybe 85-90% Luke's level in the books much later when Luke is more powerful. So you end up with Caedus and Sidious being basically equal. However if you throw out what DE says and the early source books then DE Sidious > DE Luke (for time period anyway). Then it is internally consistent and its possible for Sidious > Caedus.

Put in other words the problem with how Sidious is described in DE is as follows:
Sidious is basically declared to be the most powerful Sith ever in DE and DE sourcebooks. However, DE Luke > DE Sidious. In the later books though quite a few people are barely below Luke after Luke is much stronger. Say for example I would say Saba is 75-90% Luke in FOTJ series depending on who you ask. But if Luke has had a 20% power increase since DE then that puts Saba very close to Sidious which is clearly wrong.

In my mind throw out DE which somehow magically put a basically very lightly trained and experienced Luke (he didn't seem to really know much until the vong invasion imo) on par with Sidious.

Ah, but that's where you've got it all backwards. DE Luke is NOT superior to DE Sidious. That fight was won with help from Leia and the unborn Anakin Solo. Luke doesn't surpass DE Sidious till later in his career.

DE Luke = DE Sidious in sabers

DE Luke << DE Sidious in the force

Leia and Anakin gave very little help at best so even with that formula Luke has to be 90% of Sidious and you would still end up with the same problem. In addition another thing undermining DE's cred is that a ton of powers Dark Horse threw in there are never ever seen again. Including the one Luke used with Leia to defeat Sidious at one point rather easily. Luke would of spammed the shit out of that later with other Jedi if it was that OP and existed.

Originally posted by Stigma
DE Luke = DE Sidious in sabers

DE Luke << DE Sidious in the force

This even if you say DE Luke = DE Sidious leads to a lot of other problems because as its also said in DE if I remember correctly that DE Sidious > all Sith before him. And you take into acount that Luke has continued to improve by say 20-50% by FOTJ and several Jedi and Sith are regarded as somewhat close to him in terms of power. (Jaina, Saba, Caedus) You come to the conclusion that

Jaina Saba and Caedus would curb stomp people like Malgus or Bane or pretty much any sith other than Sidious because they all have to be weaker and this puts them on about his level.

So... we ignore DE? No, thank you.

No, we just ignore certain aspects of certain sources. Other aspects of other sources we embrace.
Who tells us what's ok and what's not...that's the real question

Yeah, Sidious definitely isn't in the top five, with Abeloth and the Ones taking the top 4 spots and Luke Skywalker or one of the Bedlam Spirits taking spot #5. Taking away the Ones/Bedlams though, Sidious comfortably sits at #2.

Originally posted by zEniX
This even if you say DE Luke = DE Sidious leads to a lot of other problems because as its also said in DE if I remember correctly that DE Sidious > all Sith before him. And you take into acount that Luke has continued to improve by say 20-50% by FOTJ and several Jedi and Sith are regarded as somewhat close to him in terms of power. (Jaina, Saba, Caedus) You come to the conclusion that

Jaina Saba and Caedus would curb stomp people like Malgus or Bane or pretty much any sith other than Sidious because they all have to be weaker and this puts them on about his level.

one of the few posters who understands the logic I am employing, I feel like most others on this forum align with a completely different paradigm.

It is nice to converse with someone who understands.

Originally posted by Arhael
So... we ignore DE? No, thank you.

If you want Star Wars to be internally consistent then you do have to read between the lines somewhat in DE and not take it too seriously just like the writers did. On the other hand you could throw out about 30ish of the novels in order to make it so no one is anywhere near Luke in power level after DE. Do either one idc just be internally consistent.

Originally posted by Stigma
No, we just ignore certain aspects of certain sources. Other aspects of other sources we embrace.
Who tells us what's ok and what's not...that's the real question

Well said

@zEniX

You will find few allies with your position in ranking matters. Many people continue to believe in traditional rankings of the mythos characters in the context of power. New content does nothing to instill second thought in them.

As an example, Revan single-handedly send an entire Strike Team of powerful Force-users (some among them with very impressive resume) with a wave of energy in a confrontation. Raw power of this magnitude is rarely witnessed in combat situations in the mythos; even Son does not have telekinetic showing on this level in combat situation. However, for some, Revan remains < Yoda because older sources hyped Yoda as being the most powerful Jedi. Luke escapes this imposition by virtue of existence in later eras.

Another example is of Lord Nyax who managed to fight the trio of Luke, Mara and Tahiri for a long time. Luke, as of this time, had become very powerful in the ways of the Force. Still, Nyax's powers proved to be too much for Luke to cope with single-handedly. The novel even implies that Nyax was stronger then any Jedi of his era. So Nyax > Sidious (DE)? Perhaps.

In addition, Lord Krayt demonstrated parity with Luke in a confrontation against Abeloth. But many fans continue to believe that Luke is much stronger then Krayt.

You can do the math now that how messed-up are the ranking-related matters of the mythos.

I totally agree which is why it is fundamentally impossible to take all cannon unfiltered. It ends up being self contradictory.

Krayt's battles in the Legacy Era show him decidedly inferior to Luke. And ultimately inferior to Cade. If he was temporarily fighting Aboleth, it is logical to think he was just amped for some reason. Much like Vestara and Ben.

So you have conflicting sources and your conclusion is to invent the idea that Krayt was somehow magically amped off screen? huh.

They dies at #4 and 5.

A temporary amp makes more sense then the idea Krayt just got significantly weaker over time.

Because Abolelth Krayt>Legacy Krayt/Reborn Krayt.

If they wanted him amped in FOTJ they likely would have said so. Also I dispute the idea that 2 cannon sources disagreeing is licence to actually invent cannon that explicitly wasn't there. More to the point the context of FOTJ is clearly trying to set Kryat up as Luke's Rival. In addition I would say its possible that his Vong implants might have made him weaker over time. Either decide the first or latest cannon version is correct or accept that he got weaker over time.

...*shrug*

Getting weaker over time is fine with me, I just wanted to give him some credit.

Many people surpassed DE Sidious, Caedus, Kryat, Revan, Vitiate, Nyax, etc.

Sidious was powerful during his time of creation, but was far surpassed by others as the Starwars literature matured.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Many people surpassed DE Sidious, Caedus, Kryat, Revan, Vitiate, Nyax, etc.

Sidious was powerful during his time of creation, but was far surpassed by others as the Starwars literature matured.

Ok

Let's say for sake of argument his feats have been surpassed

This is kind of where powerscaling swoops in to save the day.

Per quotation from the New Essentials Chronology, Sidious is definitively considered the strongest Sith Lord in history

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Source: The New Essential Chronology

^That can be found in any decent respect thread for Sidious

His creation of shit like Force Storms further cements his placement as far as DE is concerned.

Sure, the power the Nathema ritual granted Vitiate is above most anything Sidious accomplished conventionally featwise as far as raw useable power goes until DE (the rest of you can try to rebuke this sentiment, but given the metric and mindset I measure shit by? You're not going to be particularly successful), but powerscaling takes care of it when canon source material spells out the in story hierarchy (or would you claim Freeza > Cell given Cell's conventional feats compared to Freeza's are kind of ass?)

You're free to try arguing for anything after Sidious lifetime as being stronger, given that above quote doesn't actually cover his ass contextually after the time of RotS, but you're unlikely to find feats to support it as far as I've been lead to believe.

No one would surpass DE Sidious with his powers as stated unless you're basically talking Celestials.

Personally I throw DE out as a power reference for reasons already stated above. This allows for Luke to only really have passed Sidious in power at around when FOTJ started. So that would make Sidious > Caedus Kryat by slim margins.

Vitiate is problematic because his power discription doesn't match at all his displays of power in game (cannon broke down there as well I guess).

Nyax is a problem simply because based on G.L. saying Luke = Anakin = GOAT for force potential for a Jedi or Sith. If Nyrax can basically go toe to toe with Luke Mara and Tahiri for a long time that would likely break cannon again. Unless, that is, you think Luke wasn't really all that in control of his powers by the Vong war.

Originally posted by zEniX
No one would surpass DE Sidious with his powers as stated unless you're basically talking Celestials.

Luke eventually does become his better, just couldn't tell you exactly when.



You're on an EU vs debate board, get used to keeping DE Sidious in mind, your personal bias has no real relevance.



There's no problem, Marvel and DC fans have to reconcile much worse issues than any Star Wars EU fan ever will.

Shit, like I said, Dragon Ball's just as inconsistent. Literally 4 actual feats that hit moon level or above in the franchise. Next you have a few that hit country/continental. The rest are city level junk and much below.

Just smile and nod, this hobby isn't worth overthinking about or trying to rationalize.



Honestly?

Its either this or comic book like character jobbering.

Wouldn't know for sure, given I've never bothered to read material for that era, but those 2 are my best guess for the supposed incongruity.

Bear in mind though? Lucas' statement only refer to Luke and Anakin's potential.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
You're on an EU vs debate board, get used to keeping DE Sidious in mind, your personal bias has no real relevance.

The repercussions of DE Sidious contradict way too much of the rest of the cannon. Unless you can address the problems I mentioned with DE Sidious earlier in this thread I won't be keeping him in mind. If you want to address the problems I mentioned great, if not leave me to my heretical opinions.

There's no problem, Marvel and DC fans have to reconcile much worse issues than any Star Wars EU fan ever will.

This is not a valid argument for Vitiate not being a problem.

Just smile and nod, this hobby isn't worth overthinking about or trying to rationalize.

I enjoy over thinking it and taking it somewhat seriously, oddly it provides a nice stress relief from college. I'm probably somewhat crazy and I will struggle over subjective Star Wars stuff to a bizarre degree.

I really don't need to address anything. The feats happened, you're only letting your bias dictate whether or not they fit into EU canon. You're free to your subjective opinion, just keep in mind that as far as critical analysis in threads like these go? Your words fall on deaf ears.

Given hypocrisy is the greatest sin you can commit in this hobby? As far as cross-fictional analysis is concerned? Yeah, me griping over the larger issues of Marvel and DC for sake of consistent judgement is really all I need to reconcile with Vitiate. I'm not looking for conservation of energy to be preserved in this hobby, it generally doesn't exist.

Have fun with that then, just keep in mind that as far as board standards go, DE Sidious is in for most places, and communal opinions aren't really liable to change.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I really don't need to address anything. The feats happened, you're only letting your bias dictate whether or not they fit into EU canon.

So in the hypothetical that Star Wars published two new source books tomorrow and one stated Luke is more than anyone else in the universe and the other book said Sidious was more powerful than anyone else in the universe. You are telling me, that you would say both are cannon and there is no contradiction?
This is no different than claiming that both can't be cannon just on a more subtle point.

P.S. Please don't be the cliche guy who just says to me that I don't understand and then fail to address the argument.

Originally posted by zEniX
If you want Star Wars to be internally consistent then you do have to read between the lines somewhat in DE and not take it too seriously just like the writers did. On the other hand you could throw out about 30ish of the novels in order to make it so no one is anywhere near Luke in power level after DE. Do either one idc just be internally consistent.

That's total nonsense. It is all consistent, when you look at details.

DE Luke is at the height of his power because he wasn't afraid of using Force heavily. Post DE Luke was more laid back although he still demonstrated himself occasionally, e.g: casually defeating 5 cortosis armored Jensarai.

We have Kueller. Luke's ex student who could feed on death on planetary level. Still to make fight fair Luke got his leg broken prior to fight.

Towards NJO Luke was so out of shape that he even got exhausted after a short fight with three Vong. But as the war went on he quickly got back into shape and killed far more Vongs in a single combat without getting tired.

Yes, it is hard to find a worthy opponent for Luke after he defeated Sidious. Nevertheless authors did. In NJO they introduced Lord Nyax, who was 3 meter giant with 8 lightsabers and immensely powerful in the Force.

In the Final of NJO they introduced Slayers. Single Slayer defeated Kyp Durron. Luke, Jacen and Jaina faced 24 Slayers in a single combat.

Then we have Dark Nest. In first book unarmed Luke killed Welk with his own lightsaber. Welk was empowered by killiks and even then Luke could simply Force choke him but chose not to.

Then we have Unu'thul and Lomi Plo. Lomi used Luke's doubts against him. She was invisible to his eyes and was able to Force drain him and even his lightsaber. Both Thul and Lomi were empowered by thousands killiks. But ones Luke cleared all doubts, he defeated both of them in his typical bad ass manner.

Then we have Lumiya. In first fight she was shielding with hostages. Then Luke got distracted by Alima, which allowed Lumiya to badly wound him, even then he won that fight. In their second encounter Luke stopped fighting her and they exchanged hand touches... In third fight Luke confidently defeated her even without the need of a shoto to counter her lightwhip. Again bad ass.

Then we have Caedus. Who else would be a better challenge than own blood?

Then we have Lost Tribe of the Sith. Non of them were worthy to challenge him, so they were taking him on in numbers. At one point completely exhausted Luke was able to surive attacks of 24 Sith.

Finally we have Abeloth. She was capable to defeat Son or Daughter 1 on 1. And guess what, Luke was able to defeat her even in 1 on 1 fight.

As you can see Luke is as bad ass as he was in DE. He got plenty of worthy opponents and struggled either due to unfavorable circumstances or because his opponents were just that good.

DE is exaggerated but it doesn't make Luke defeating Sidious any less legit. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Arhael
DE Luke is at the height of his power because he wasn't afraid of using Force heavily. .

You are contradicted by g cannon.

"Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

Luke only stopped using his power in certain ways because he realized that using his powers in that way would to be using the dark side.

Luke never stopped growing in power, by the time he faced Caedus he had far surpassed his DE levels.

DE Sidious was an early benchmark for Luke to pass, every bench mark post of DE Sidious had far surpassed Sidious due to Luke growing in power every time he passed a benchmark.

Caedus was far beyond DE Sidious in raw power, martial ability, and combat ability. DE sidious primary strengths lied in his cunning, subtle manipulation, and sorcery. In a one versus one fight to the death there are many who would kill DE sidious outright.

3.0 Revan, Nihilus, and Vitiate have combat feats that surpass anything DE Sidious has ever done. Caedus and Luke are on an entirely superior level to Sidious as well, the fact is that DE Sidious was an early benchmark and nothing more.

With powerscaling (which is something, that is necessary to use here) Nihilus isn't that strong. It's actually quite possible, that he was below Kreia and Revan.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Luke never stopped growing in power, by the time he faced Caedus he had far surpassed his DE levels.

DE Sidious was an early benchmark for Luke to pass, every bench mark post of DE Sidious had far surpassed Sidious due to Luke growing in power every time he passed a benchmark.

Caedus was far beyond DE Sidious in raw power, martial ability, and combat ability. DE sidious primary strengths lied in his cunning, subtle manipulation, and sorcery. In a one versus one fight to the death there are many who would kill DE sidious outright.

3.0 Revan, Nihilus, and Vitiate have combat feats that surpass anything DE Sidious has ever done. Caedus and Luke are on an entirely superior level to Sidious as well, the fact is that DE Sidious was an early benchmark and nothing more.

Putting Caedus over Sidious would imply FOTJ Saba is basically equal to Sidious and people like Corran and Kyp in FOTJ are just very slightly below him which I'm not inclined to believe for a host of reasons.

Originally posted by ILS
Stop at Abeloth

Abeloth lost to Krayt and Luke. :/...

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Abeloth lost to Krayt and Luke. :/...

Actually she lost to Krayt, Luke, Ben, uber amped Vestara and Saba fighting her all at once.

Three DE Sidiouses.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Three DE Sidiouses.

Well played

One 3.0 Revan would stomp 2 DE sidious, revan would tk tear their arms off and beat them to death with their own light sabers.

Revan 3.0 is broken

Originally posted by zEniX
Actually she lost to Krayt, Luke, Ben, uber amped Vestara and Saba fighting her all at once.
and Ben was amped by a state of oneness

Originally posted by Emperordmb
and Ben was amped by a state of oneness Not to mention...
Originally posted by WildBantha88
A being in oneness is more powerful than a one of mortis. Deal with it

"A being in oneness is more powerful than a one of mortis. Deal with it"

Very lol worthy

Uh, no. It depends on who enters Oneness.

GM Luke in oneness might possibly equal Daughter in terms of the Light Side, and Full Potential Anakin in oneness might equal Father, but it's not going to be true of everyone.

Only reason Anakin was able to equal Father was because he was on the Mortis monolith which is the most powerful nexus known (along with perhaps other celestial nexuses).

Ben Skywalker in Oneness was substantially less powerful than Abeloth.

Originally posted by zEniX
"A being in oneness is more powerful than a one of mortis. Deal with it"

Very lol worthy

Bariss Offe and Jax Pavan confirmed to have an incarnation above the Mortis Trio :maybe

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Bariss Offe and Jax Pavan confirmed to have an incarnation above the Mortis Trio :maybe

What source is that from? o.O

Apparently Bariss Offe and Jax Pavan achieved oneness once or twice from what I've heard (citations on the SW wiki has them done such anyway, not that I know for sure)

I was mocking all forms of oneness being equal by pointing out how weak little shit's like them achieved it

Hear that? Jax Pavan is a weak little shit

Profit!

Bantha would disagree with you

Originally posted by zEniX
You are contradicted by g cannon.

"Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

Luke only stopped using his power in certain ways because he realized that using his powers in that way would to be using the dark side.

I contradicted nothing. DE Luke is a Jedi with 10 years experience, where he actively participated in a war. Just from original trilogy it is clear how quickly Luke improves. Even before DE Luke demonstrated his power by safely landing himself, his X-Wing and Isolder from skyfall like feathers, while most other Jedi are not capable to safely land themselves alone from a high fall.
Yes, darksiders learned quicker, that's why we have characters like Kuller or Desann - both trained for only around 2-3 years.

Post DE Luke did lose his shape. Dark Tide: Onslaught novel make it abundantly clear. Below quotes are all from that novel.


Here is a conversation of Anakin and Mara:
Anakin winced. "But Luke said that Yoda lifted his X-wing out of the swamp at Dagobah."
"To make a point, to show Luke how strong the Force could be, if mastered."
"And I've mastered it."
Her head came up and her gaze sharpened. "Have you, now?"
Anakin immediately flushed crimson. "Well, I mean, I've been trained to it. I know how to use it."
"But knowing how to use it is entirely different from knowing when to use it. Think, Anakin, how often do you see your uncle use the Force in raw displays of strength?"
He frowned. "Well, not so much these days. Not since the war ended, I guess."
"Correct, not since he realized that using the Force so directly cut him off from the more subtle aspects of it."

Luke after fight with only 3 Vongs:
Luke leaned heavily on his nephew. "We have to get to the ship."

Jacen hugged his right arm around Luke's waist. "What's wrong? Did they hurt you?"

"No, Jacen, it's just that..." Luke's chest heaved with exertion. "It's just that using that much of the Force, using it that directly, is exhausting. A Jedi may be able to control and use a great deal of the Force, but there is a price, a fearful price. Hurry, we have to go, quickly."
Jacen hustled his uncle along.

Jacen musing about Luke's fight with three Vongs:
The image of his uncle moving into the Yuuzhan Vong camp, wielding twin lightsabers, still played through his head. He'd known Luke Skywalker all his life, and had acknowledged him his Master, but until that point had never really seen Luke the way others had. Luke's greatest triumphs had been accomplished well before Jacen had been born, so he always knew Luke was a legend, but never had a way to see why he had been a legend.
The display he had put on had impressed Jacen, as had his uncle's weakness after the display. It seemed to age Luke terribly to have used the Force so directly.

Luke pulling basal dovin in the same book:
Luke sank back into the chair and closed his eyes. He took a deep breath and reached out through the Force. He let his sense of things ride above the frayed ones' jagged profile and vectored in toward the vehicle. He got no solid sense of it directly, though a few frayed ones did appear to be housed inside. Instead he used that emptiness as a way point to search out a void, and as it formed, the black hole blossomed fully in the Force.

The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.

He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. - Luke lost consciousness after this feat. Later in his life he did far more demanding feat and never collapsed.

Luke clearly got back into shape throughout YV war, Jacen even directly draws comparison to Luke from the beginning of the war:

He was his own vortex, deflecting amphistaff strikes, whiplike lashes, and spurts of deadly venom; dodging or redirecting flights of thud bugs; parrying the thrusts of coufees, to sidestep, duck, maneuver his body in ways that seemed to defy gravity. Stunned or burned by Luke's green blade, thud bugs were ricocheting from the walls and high ceiling, chipping away at the yorik coral surface.

Dropped in their tracks, warriors sprawled with hands pressed to stumps of legs and opened foreheads, or with black blood welling where the lightsaber had found defenseless areas between living armor and tattooed flesh. Jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding two lightsabers when he had come to Jacen's rescue.

But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control Luke demonstrated now. His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty. He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye.

He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought. In fact, Luke didn't seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded-but they had little time to reflect.

-

Arhael makes a compelling argument.

Um, on the last page.

Considering his original point was
Originally posted by Arhael
DE Luke is at the height of his power because he wasn't afraid of using Force heavily.

His argument demonstrates nothing other than Luke didn't use his full power very often, but he did use it whenever it mattered. The evidence only suggest he didn't use it casually. There is absolutely no indication to claim that Luke, unlike literally every Star Wars force wielding character, did somehow not progressed in power as he got older, or that he somehow lost power when he stopped using it casually.

Originally posted by zEniX
Considering his original point was


His argument demonstrates nothing other than Luke didn't use his full power very often, but he did use it whenever it mattered. The evidence only suggest he didn't use it casually. There is absolutely no indication to claim that Luke, unlike literally every Star Wars force wielding character, did somehow not progressed in power as he got older, or that he somehow lost power when he stopped using it casually.
I never claimed that he did not progress in power. He lost power towards beginning of NJO series to which I gave clear proof. Then he got back into shape. Then he was shown to improve in Dark Nest as he performed the same illusion feat twise and it didn't affect him as much second time. Then to what extend he improved after is unclear. Regardless, it is irrelevant when and how Luke improve, my original point was that there is no inconsistency.

The only thing which would indicate Luke regressed in power is if you start with the DE comic itself. There is nothing in the quotes you mentioned which states he was weaker than he had been. In addition EVERY Jedi was portrayed as having a very hard time with the Vong at the start of the war in order to make them appear to be a significant threat.

As for your argument about Luke's training for 10 years making him equal to Sidious. It doesn't hold any weight. Sidious trained intensively under Plagueis for 10 years before he even ceased to be an apprentice. It took him until at least Revenge, 20 years later, before he was actually on Plagueis's level. You claimed that people learn much faster with the dark side. In that case, Sidious should be even further ahead of Luke.

As for Luke's power level in RotJ, 4 years later in The Courtship of Princess Leia.

"Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed,
pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of
his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and
Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell
had ripped open blood vessels in his brain,
and he was about to die, one among hundreds
of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader
had tried to kill me. Who had Luke beenkidding? Teneniel had been right, Luke was no
warrior. Ben, Luke thought. I failed you. I’ve
failed you all."

Edit: Sorry it 33 years not 20. I put in the wrong date above. It was 20 years after his apprenticeship before Sidious killed Plagueis, but 33 years before Revenge of the Sith.

Originally posted by Stigma
During his cloning experiments, Sidious clones himself, but the clone has the same memories, skill, power and mastery.
Now the universe trembles in fear of not one, but two Sidiouses.

In order to rule the universe forever both travel through time and need to face the following teams.

Who can stop 2 DE Sidiouses ?

* All characters are at their peak.
* In CW era Sidiouses kidnap Padme, as they think it would aid them in their fight.

1. Ancient Sith: Exar Kun, Ulic, Nihilus and Traya
2. TOR Era: Vitiate, Revan, Malgus and Nox
3. Banite Sith: Bane, Zannah, Tenebrous and Plagueis
4. CW Era: Yoda, Mace, Dooku and Zone Anakin
5. NJO Era: Luke, Caedus, Durron and Katarn

Boss: Ahsoka and Abeloth

Actualy Revan and Vitiate are more ancient sith if Nihilus etc are....

Did I see somebody say NJO Luke would barely beat one DE Sids... LMAO... You guys have anymore jokes for me? Luke would win decisively and it would be all that hard.

It was you who said that huh? moron. stop posting if you have no clue that you're talking about

Originally posted by zEniX
The only thing which would indicate Luke regressed in power is if you start with the DE comic itself. There is nothing in the quotes you mentioned which states he was weaker than he had been. In addition EVERY Jedi was portrayed as having a very hard time with the Vong at the start of the war in order to make them appear to be a significant threat.

As for your argument about Luke's training for 10 years making him equal to Sidious. It doesn't hold any weight. Sidious trained intensively under Plagueis for 10 years before he even ceased to be an apprentice. It took him until at least Revenge, 20 years later, before he was actually on Plagueis's level. You claimed that people learn much faster with the dark side. In that case, Sidious should be even further ahead of Luke.

As for Luke's power level in RotJ, 4 years later in The Courtship of Princess Leia.

"Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed,
pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of
his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and
Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell
had ripped open blood vessels in his brain,
and he was about to die, one among hundreds
of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader
had tried to kill me. Who had Luke beenkidding? Teneniel had been right, Luke was no
warrior. Ben, Luke thought. I failed you. I’ve
failed you all."

I know from DE that Luke can throw statues without any problems. Post DE in one book Luke rebuilds and destroys Vader's fortress and lifts B-Wing with himself in it without any effort. But in NJO he states that he hasn't used Force heavily in years, it is a clear indication of him being out of practice towards NJO.

Sidious example is not relevant. First, Plagueis held back his training, he didn't even start teaching him lightsaber skill until later on. Second, you don't know how powerful Sidious was, when he killed Plagueis, in my opinion he was already in his prime at that time, he even says to Plagueis something like: You forged the most powerful Sith and did not leave a place for yourself. I am inclined to believe Sidious because at that point he was already too busy with politics and there is no indication at all that he got more powerful by the time of RotS.

As of Luke in Courtship. One of his best TK feats is in that book. But power does not equate to skill in Force combat. He lacked experience in Force fight, Getzerion simply caught him off guard with TK blast. Even experienced Jedi can get caught off guard regardless of power, Yoda getting knocked out by Sidious is one of the most notable examples. Luke gained experience from fighting witches. Year later Luke gained more experience from fight with C'baot. A lot of things can happen in two years, so there is nothing wrong with Luke being able to confront Sidious. Anakin got one-shotted by Dooku's lightning in AotC, two years or less later he could defend against it without much struggle.

GM Luke>Sidious, for sure, but winning isn't something he'd do quickly. Besides, it isn't if he can beat 1 Sidious...he can. It's whether or not his 3 allies can hold off the other one.