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Battle takes place on neutral ground

Meetra Surik wins with medium difficulty.

Zannah.

Yeah, Zannah wins this one.

Prolly wouldn't be too bad of a fight, though.

Zannah has zero offensive calability with a lightsaber and relies on Sorcery to take out her opponents, in a pure duel she only has a purely defensive variant of Soresu to work with.

Meetra Surik on the other hand has defeated combatants such as Atris, Sion and Traya, master lightsaber duelists. As well as that she killed multiple Imperial Guardsmen simultaneously whom were in direct contact with the Emperor, he was amplifying them to the point that Revan could barely TK one.

Meetra Surik has greater combat precognition and analysis feats by a strong margin as well, at one point analysing her opponents and the odds in half a second before killing one with a Force Push.

Meetra Surik has also fought through, survived, and won frontline battles against Mandalorians, Special forces, Sith Assassins, Dark Jedi, Mercenaries and Sith Lords in combat.

Let us not forget that her single-handed massacre of the Sith Triumvirate and it's leaders at the heart of their power is one of the greatest combat feats in the lore.

As far as Endurance goes, Meetra has displayed extreme stamina and endurance in the aforementioned Battle of the Trayus Academy, enduring extreme physical and mental pain but won regardless. On-top of that we have Meetra Surik enduring Nathema for weeks, using solely her willpower and physical durability to withstand Nathema's attempt to tear her apart and absorb her.

Surik has superior physical feats, superior precognition, superior lightsaber feats and superior experience in combat.

This fight is ambiguous because Meetra's saber skills are never shown outside of KOTOR2 in which they were player dependent. However, I give this one to Zannah. It is implied in Revan that Meetra is clearly less powerful in the force and with a light-saber than Revan and Revan and Zannah are roughly on the same power / skill level.

Less powerful in the Force certainly but not less skilled in lightsaber combat.

Oh and Zannah wasn't even as strong as her master, whom is possibly Darth Revan tier if we take Drew seriously. Zannah doesn't even approach Reborn Revan in power.

However we do know from Sourcebooks, Guides and Chronologies that Meetra's victories over Sion, Atris and Traya were due to lightsaber skill and they were all increasingly masterful duelists themselves.

Given Traya herself was still more powerful than Surik when they fought on Malachor, it was a question of Surik's skill that bought her the win there.

Probably one of the better show of skills in the Old Republic era all things considered.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Less powerful in the Force certainly but not less skilled in lightsaber combat.

Oh and Zannah wasn't even as strong as her master, whom is possibly Darth Revan tier if we take Drew seriously. Zannah doesn't even approach Reborn Revan in power.

However we do know from Sourcebooks, Guides and Chronologies that Meetra's victories over Sion, Atris and Traya were due to lightsaber skill and they were all increasingly masterful duelists themselves.

Can you link me or post what was said in the Sourcebooks, Guides and Chronologies? I'm curious now.

Given all the fighting she did beforehand and the fact she was very mentally and physically ill at the time then yes it's exceptionally impressive, yet equally overlooked.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Given all the fighting she did beforehand and the fact she was very mentally and physically ill at the time then yes it's exceptionally impressive, yet equally overlooked.

?

What and who are you referencing?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zannah.



Originally posted by AncientPower
Zannah has zero offensive calability with a lightsaber and relies on Sorcery to take out her opponents, in a pure duel she only has a purely defensive variant of Soresu to work with.

Wrong.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Less powerful in the Force certainly but not less skilled in lightsaber combat.

Oh and Zannah wasn't even as strong as her master, whom is possibly Darth Revan tier if we take Drew seriously. Zannah doesn't even approach Reborn Revan in power.

Wrong again. Zannah is explicitly equal in power to Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys




Wrong.



Wrong again. Zannah is explicitly equal in power to Bane.


I guess that would be why Zannah couldn't hit Bane once with her saberstaff whilst he was unarmed.

Bane has demonstrated superior raw power in the Force than Zannah ever has.

But please continue calling me wrong when you know full well I am correct.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I guess that would be why Zannah couldn't hit Bane once with her saberstaff whilst he was unarmed.

Bane has demonstrated superior raw power in the Force than Zannah ever has.

But please continue calling me wrong when you know full well I am correct.

Because Bane is that good and she isn't used to being on the offense. That doesn't mean that she doesn't have offensive training and capabilities. That's fu-, er, hilariously ridiculous. That she could attack him at all shows she does have those abilities. When dueling whatshisface she identified dozens of counterattack opportunities. Her style is based on wearing opponents down and switching to offense, so she obviously needs offensive capabilities.

Bane thinks that theres a possibility that she may have exceeded him in power by DoE, let alone match him in it. That one is a given. Zannah's abilities are more subtle and don't demonstrate raw power like Bane does, but she certainly possesses that level of it. The Huntress marvels that anyone could possess power like Zannah moments after sensing (and being similarly amazed) by Bane's power.

'Isn't used to being on the offensive' That is all I needed. Note I'm not saying she can't attack, merely that against Surik it would produce little given Surik's own precognitive abilities.

You said she had zero offensive "calability". Hence why I called you wrong.

Indeed she is incapable of effective attacks against combatants like Surik.

Surik has more skill, more experience, greater physical feats and greater precognitive ability.

Zannah has nothing to do but stall here.

Zannah is not incapable of offensive maneuvers as a duelist, she just has difficulty using it an overall defensive strategy. She is just fine using offensive maneuvers with an overall defensive strategy.

Which as I have stated repeatedly is not enough for someone with the stamina and precognituve abilities of Surik. Especially since Surik is demonstratively more skilled in the first place.

She's only demonstrated "offensive capabilities" to a half drugged Bane who dodged all of her attacks.

So yeah just throwing that out there.

LOL.

I saw that tactically retarded part, carth. Don't make edits, embrace the destruction of Zannah and her contemporaries.

While I'm not on the Zannah=Bane train, whatever that's supposed to prove, Zannah can probably outlast Surik in sabers only.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Indeed she is incapable of effective attacks against combatants like Surik.

Surik has more skill, more experience, greater physical feats and greater precognitive ability.

Zannah has nothing to do but stall here.

Indeed you are wrong.

Surik doesn't have more skill. Zannah's Soresu is one of the best in the mythos, if not the best, and impenetrable to Surik. And she falls utterly short in physical feats. Lol @ you suggesting she is the superior here. Does Surik even have physical feats? And precognition isn't helping her here. Zannah is a defensive fighter. You don't need precog to predict her moves.

Stall against what? Surik has nothing that can beat Zannah. She's slower, weaker, less powerful and ultimately an inferior duelist.

Carthage, change your title under your username. Thanks.

hehehehehehehehehe

Not really that funny, champ.

Perhaps not, but this is.

inb4 the final judgment

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed you are wrong.

Surik doesn't have more skill. Zannah's Soresu is one of the best in the mythos, if not the best, and impenetrable to Surik. And she falls utterly short in physical feats. Lol @ you suggesting she is the superior here. Does Surik even have physical feats? And precognition isn't helping her here. Zannah is a defensive fighter. You don't need precog to predict her moves.

Stall against what? Surik has nothing that can beat Zannah. She's slower, weaker, less powerful and ultimately an inferior duelist.

Soresu is not the infallible one beats all form you insist it is, Zannah herself was dead if Sarro Xaj could duel her uninterrupted, Surik is a much more skilled and experienced combatant than Sarro Xaj.

Surik has fought through Storm Beasts on a planet completely unstable and covered in toxic gas before cutting her way through the most elite Sith the Triumvirate had on a Dark Side nexus.
That is itself before dominating Darth Sion, a top warrior of Kun's Brotherhood completely in the heart of the Academy and after this killing Darth Traya, one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the mythos. She was severely ill, physically and mentally the entire time to boot.

After this she journeyed to Nathema and was actively fighting the void for weeks, which required immense mental and physical strength on her part.

Those are greater stamina and endurance feats than anything Zannah can even get close to.

Precognitive ability is useful against any form of opponent, but nice try, I'm sure Force Augmentation if for wannabes to right?

Zannah has nothing skill wise that compares to killing over a hundred amped Sith in combat whilst ill and weak. Nothing on dominating Atris, Darth Sion and Darth Traya in combat. Infact I wouldn't even say that she has anything superior to Surik defeating multiple Imperial Guardsmen.

I had fun hearing that Zannah is one of the greatest in the mythos however.

Originally posted by AncientPower
After this she journeyed to Nathema and was actively fighting the void for weeks, which required immense mental and physical strength on her part.
Greetings, Lady. We don't allow socks of your kind.

By Lady, do you mean Kulvax? The one in your profile who invented mad quotes?

That explains the Exar Kun shenanigans.

I am neither female nor a sock, if you are looking to troll someone to satiate your boredom between classes then I'd suggest the comment section of Reddit, 4Chan or 9GAG. This is not the site you are looking for.

Lady said she was male, female, trans, gay, bi, strait, pregnant, etc at various points. Idgaf what you are, just that you joined during the Lady episode and backed her up, and then debate and use quotes of hers.

I don't even know who you are referring to nor do I have the intention of substantiating your daily episode of user attacks.

My unborn great grand children could tell you are lying at this point, TBH. We have pages upon pages still of you defending Lady from me, now you say you don't know her? LOL.

I have never defended anyone besides myself and only called you out for your constant personal attacks against numerous other users here, be them either direct or passive attacks.

I honestly couldn't care less who you think I am, I used to be on this forum a decade ago when debates weren't filled with character trolling. The only person I even recognise here barely posts anymore.

I don't know who you are but I have seen enough to know you accuse plenty of others of random convolutions all the time so I guess I'll just leave you to your PMS episode.

Dunno who wins.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Soresu is not the infallible one beats all form you insist it is, Zannah herself was dead if Sarro Xaj could duel her uninterrupted, Surik is a much more skilled and experienced combatant than Sarro Xaj.

This was before Zannah's peak and doesn't represent her abilities as a full Sith Lord. Also no, Surik isn't much more skilled than Sarro. Or more skilled at all. The dude elevated his fighting skills to the highest and purest levels and was physically larger than even Bane and extremely fast and graceful to boot.

And Zannah's Soresu is almost infallible as stated multiple times in the text. How is Surik gonna get through that, hmm? Paint me a picture.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik has fought through Storm Beasts on a planet completely unstable and covered in toxic gas before cutting her way through the most elite Sith the Triumvirate had on a Dark Side nexus.
That is itself before dominating Darth Sion, a top warrior of Kun's Brotherhood completely in the heart of the Academy and after this killing Darth Traya, one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the mythos. She was severely ill, physically and mentally the entire time to boot.

Malachor would be effecting everyone she fought as well don't forget. Sith and Storm Beasts aren't immune to gravity or Malachor's particular hazards. This is a good feat though. But ultimately nothing comparable to matching Bane blow for blow and him failing to get through her defenses without trickery. Plus this is Meetra Surik, and in her novel appearance she was decidedly mediocre and well below beings on Bane and Zannah's levels.

Originally posted by AncientPower
After this she journeyed to Nathema and was actively fighting the void for weeks, which required immense mental and physical strength on her part.

Lol. She was on there to like, an hour. Tops.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Those are greater stamina and endurance feats than anything Zannah can even get close to.

Not really. The Exile had no time restraints on her in the assault on the Trayas Academy. So there's no reason she'd have had to be constantly fighting and couldn't rest the whole time.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Precognitive ability is useful against any form of opponent, but nice try, I'm sure Force Augmentation if for wannabes to right?

And what practical use is it against an opponent who sets up an impassable saber wall? "My Surik Senses are tingling! She's going to..... keep spinning!"

Originally posted by AncientPower
Zannah has nothing skill wise that compares to killing over a hundred amped Sith in combat whilst ill and weak. Nothing on dominating Atris, Darth Sion and Darth Traya in combat. In fact I wouldn't even say that she has anything superior to Surik defeating multiple Imperial Guardsmen.

Matching Bane in combat is better than all of that, lol. And eff off, where are you getting a hundred Sith from?

Originally posted by AncientPower
I had fun hearing that Zannah is one of the greatest in the mythos however.

Bane is, and since even he lacked the offensive capabilities of getting through Zannah's defense (and he had an extremely offensive combat style), then Surik has next to no chance. And this is on neutral ground, so there's no environmental factor's for her to take advantage of and even if there were she lacks the ability to capitalise upon them and injure Zannah sufficiently to win.

Surik seems to be an expert swordsman, her performance indicates as much.

So is Zannah. Her defense is such that Bane, one of the best offensive forces in the mythos, couldn't get through and it was many times described as nigh-impenetrable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This was before Zannah's peak and doesn't represent her abilities as a full Sith Lord. Also no, Surik isn't much more skilled than Sarro. Or more skilled at all. The dude elevated his fighting skills to the highest and purest levels and was physically larger than even Bane and extremely fast and graceful to boot.

And Zannah's Soresu is almost infallible as stated multiple times in the text. How is Surik gonna get through that, hmm? Paint me a picture.



Malachor would be effecting everyone she fought as well don't forget. Sith and Storm Beasts aren't immune to gravity or Malachor's particular hazards. This is a good feat though. But ultimately nothing comparable to matching Bane blow for blow and him failing to get through her defenses without trickery. Plus this is Meetra Surik, and in her novel appearance she was decidedly mediocre and well below beings on Bane and Zannah's levels.



Lol. She was on there to like, an hour. Tops.



Not really. The Exile had no time restraints on her in the assault on the Trayas Academy. So there's no reason she'd have had to be constantly fighting and couldn't rest the whole time.



And what practical use is it against an opponent who sets up an impassable saber wall? "My Surik Senses are tingling! She's going to..... keep spinning!"



Matching Bane in combat is better than all of that, lol. And eff off, where are you getting a hundred Sith from?



Bane is, and since even he lacked the offensive capabilities of getting through Zannah's defense (and he had an extremely offensive combat style), then Surik has next to no chance. And this is on neutral ground, so there's no environmental factor's for her to take advantage of and even if there were she lacks the ability to capitalise upon them and injure Zannah sufficiently to win.

Sarro Xaj was a technical master but technical skill is not what makes a true master in saber combat.

Soresu is repeatedly referred to as exactly that but it doesn't hold up demonstratively.

The Storm Beasts evolved to live in this environment, they thrived there. Also the Sith inside the Trayus Academy were sheltered from the gravity effects, they did however have an enormous amplification from the environment itself. It is one of the best combat feats in the lore. Bane is a master duelist certainly, so is Darth Traya and Surik defeated her specifically due to skill, not Force power. Force power is irrelevant in this contest as it is a dueling contest only.

Surik had to utilize T3-M4 to hack and decipher the contents of the computers there and it was stated to take a considerable amount of time. I may be misremembering the exact amount of time she was there however and be mixing it up with T3's previous stay.

An Academy with Sith in every room and a prior warning that she was attacking. Traya specfically states she was to be given no quarter and that the Sith show her full respect upon arrival. Your logic isn't sound, infact it sounds more like PIS.

Lightsaber combat is an extremely complex art and precognition would come in exceptional handy regardless of circumstance. Claiming otherwise is fallacious dismissal.

No it isn't, Bane isn't the Darth Vader you are making him out to be, his showings when lacking his plot armor are not very inspiring. Oh and there were easily a hundred Sith in the Academy at that time.

Darth Bane has repeatedly gained an advantage in combat over her and both Bane and Zannah realised how asinine it was when she tried to end him with her lightsaber. She is a sorceress first, second and third then comes in her combat skills.

Darth Traya and Master Atris are both master duelists with exveptional knowledge and experience. The fact she defeated both of them through lightsaber skill despite the excessive odds stacked against her is incredibly impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So is Zannah. Her defense is such that Bane, one of the best offensive forces in the mythos, couldn't get through and it was many times described as nigh-impenetrable.
I think that you are remembering some stuff wrong.

But she knew she wouldn't survive another clash of lightsabers.

Taken from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Bane injured Zannah during the martial phase of their second confrontation and the latter realized that she cannot contend with Bane in this manner for long. Also, keep in mind that Bane was not in his top shape during this time.

In addition:

Zannah had fought him once before, back when he was still encased in his orbalisk armor. She remembered it had been like battling a force of nature: the chitinous parasites covering his entire body had been impervious to lightsaber attacks, allowing him to attack with pure animal rage.

She had survived that encounter only by convincing Bane she hadn't betrayed him, and in the end he had let her live.

Taken from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Bane and Zannah had fought earlier when the former was at his prime but Bane spared Zannah's life.

---

I am not trying to assert that Zannah is bad in martial aspects of combat, she is certainly good.

However, Surik have more impressive resume in these matters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane, one of the best offensive forces in the mythos, .

Your Agen Kolar writing has too many sex scenes. Its highly inappropriate for their forum.

I didn't even have to enter this thread, and every Zannah supporter has basically been painfully executed.

I'm impressed, you are learning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane, one of the best offensive forces in the mythos, ...

Source for Kreia being referred as a master duelist? (I say this knowing I am right, I just want to publicly prove a point.)
All I recall is Atris being called one, and then sources state Meetra beat her via pure skill with a blade. Give me a scan please.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I think that you are remembering some stuff wrong.

But she knew she wouldn't survive another clash of lightsabers.

Taken from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Bane injured Zannah during the martial phase of their second confrontation and the latter realized that she cannot contend with Bane in this manner for long. Also, keep in mind that Bane was not in his top shape during this time.

Bane had to use the environment to injure her in that manner, pushing her back until she tripped on a grave moments from Force-pwning him. Before that point he was unable to penetrate her defenses in a conventional manner.

And Bane was only the merest fraction slower than he'd once been and a tiny sliver less physically strong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition:

Zannah had fought him once before, back when he was still encased in his orbalisk armor. She remembered it had been like battling a force of nature: the chitinous parasites covering his entire body had been impervious to lightsaber attacks, allowing him to attack with pure animal rage.

She had survived that encounter only by convincing Bane she hadn't betrayed him, and in the end he had let her live.

Taken from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Bane and Zannah had fought earlier when the former was at his prime but Bane spared Zannah's life.

That was when Zannah was still an apprentice and 10 years before her prime. It's like basing Kotor 2 Meetra on her abilities in the Mandalorian Wars. Also even though Zannah was being overwhelmed, it's still incredibly impressive that she managed to survive as long as she did against the sheer level of speed and power Bane was using against her. Deflecting what appeared to her to be a dozen lightsabers at once is impressive as hell.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
---

I am not trying to assert that Zannah is bad in martial aspects of combat, she is certainly good.

However, Surik have more impressive resume in these matters.

Meetra got chumped by Nyriss. Lets not act as if her resume is flawless here.

Someone got too identified with their character when playing KOTOR2 lmao

Originally posted by zEniX
Someone got too identified with their character when playing KOTOR2 lmao

If you'll stick around long enough you'll hear crazier stuff from him than that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Source for Kreia being referred as a master duelist? (I say this knowing I am right, I just want to publicly prove a point.)
All I recall is Atris being called one, and then sources state Meetra beat her via pure skill with a blade. Give me a scan please.

I think most people make a big deal out of defeating Traya through skill mostly because Surik is confirmed inferior in raw power

Granted, when you get down to it, every jedi/sith character eventually gets written like a moron regardless of era when they forget they have shit like telekinesis when it would be ****ing useful to use (No Obi-Wan, please, stand there and watch that Mandalorian woman commit suicide. Free fall, that hasn't even started yet, is entirely insurmountable, way too powerful for your combat proven telekinesis to laugh at...).

However, I'd figure that's a non issue in a fight where part of the battle has the character with enough finesse to simultaneously control 3 lightsabers at once :hmm

What do I know though?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sarro Xaj was a technical master but technical skill is not what makes a true master in saber combat.

Sarro also has plenty of combat experience from the war, is physically honed to perfection and shows no lack of other aspects of combat ability. I don't see why we should poo poo him when the text fellates the hell out of his dueling skills. What does Meetra have that he lacks? And why would that give her an edge over a far greater version of Zannah?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Soresu is repeatedly referred to as exactly that but it doesn't hold up demonstratively.

Whereas Zannah's basically does and how her style functions leaves little room for Surik to use her incredible skills to get through. Surik can't even match Sarro's display, she's not strong or quick enough for that. So what's her big play to penetrate the shield?

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Storm Beasts evolved to live in this environment, they thrived there. Also the Sith inside the Trayus Academy were sheltered from the gravity effects, they did however have an enormous amplification from the environment itself. It is one of the best combat feats in the lore. Bane is a master duelist certainly, so is Darth Traya and Surik defeated her specifically due to skill, not Force power. Force power is irrelevant in this contest as it is a dueling contest only.

Wait, why are they sheltered from the gravity effects? I don't recall the academy having an anti-gravity force field or something set up. And if that's true then Surik would be free of that restriction while fighting as well. Plus I question how much benefit the assassins would get from a nexus considering their power mostly comes from Meetra, not themselves. And the Storm Beats evolved to live in intense gravity and being on top of a force wound? Ok.

Traya doesn't remotely compare to Bane as a duelist. She's a one armed old woman with no saber feats. Also force power plays a big part even in lightsaber dueling.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik had to utilize T3-M4 to hack and decipher the contents of the computers there and it was stated to take a considerable amount of time. I may be misremembering the exact amount of time she was there however and be mixing it up with T3's previous stay.

Surik has T3 decipher the contents back on her ship. The whole trip to Nathema is them running into a building, downloading the shit and legging it back to their ship. Selenial was wrong about the length of her stay by a lot.

Originally posted by AncientPower
An Academy with Sith in every room and a prior warning that she was attacking. Traya specfically states she was to be given no quarter and that the Sith show her full respect upon arrival. Your logic isn't sound, infact it sounds more like PIS.

That doesn't mean she couldn't rest before pushing further into the academy. As you say they were all in separate rooms and separated by hallways and shit. Not to mention that she'd be absorbing power from them as she went, which could replenish her stamina.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lightsaber combat is an extremely complex art and precognition would come in exceptional handy regardless of circumstance. Claiming otherwise is fallacious dismissal.

Meaningless statements. You've offered no practical benefit for Surik.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No it isn't, Bane isn't the Darth Vader you are making him out to be, his showings when lacking his plot armor are not very inspiring. Oh and there were easily a hundred Sith in the Academy at that time.

In lightsaber combat Bane is much better than Vader.

Also prove it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Bane has repeatedly gained an advantage in combat over her and both Bane and Zannah realised how asinine it was when she tried to end him with her lightsaber. She is a sorceress first, second and third then comes in her combat skills.

Yet in their final duel Zannah was able to intercept Bane's strikes easily and he wasn't able to conventionally get through her shield wall. Also remember than Bane was the one to come up with Zannah's lightsaber style and her tactics, so it's no surprise that given 20 years of time he'd be able to think of a way around her wall, even if he had to rely on indirect methods to do so.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Traya and Master Atris are both master duelists with exveptional knowledge and experience. The fact she defeated both of them through lightsaber skill despite the excessive odds stacked against her is incredibly impressive.

What odds were stacked against her when she dueled Atris? If anything Atris should have been winded from fighting Brianna. And Traya isn't a notable duelist. Not even in the same country as Bane. Also being a master duelist is incredibly generic. I'd expect basically every non-consular Jedi Master to have achieved that level of skill. It's meaningless.

Not going to bother getting In to this, given all the Bane hate recently it's impossible to have a sane debate with half the people I generally would like to because none of you would ever concede.

Having thrown that out there, Neph, I believe AP was referring to the fact that Atris had her own dark side nexus and a multitude of Dark Side Holocrons to draw off.

And I don't believe anyone is saying Traya is on Bane's level, Traya is a consular and focuses on the force, is confirmed more powerful and was on the strongest Dark Side Nexus bar the font of power, the fact Surik had the stamina to deal with the entire fortress that (thanks to the Prima game guide) we know was filled with a legion of the most elite assassins. On a dark Nexus, sacrificing her energy by saving her friends, etc. the odds were simply stacked against Surik astronomically but she came out on top, it's impressive.

Sel, BTW, I discovered the quote that says Darth Traya is a master lightsaber duelist was referring to Atris, not Kreia. In cut-content, Atris declares herself Darth Traya as a title. The Prima Guide forget to fix this.

Yeh, I discovered that once I finally saw the quote. That plot point was known to me, I used to do digging extracting the alternate ending files for lawlz back in the day (Like Kreia surviving etc.)

That quote alone however did not make her a master, she has other showings. She's at least not a chump, I believe is how id describe her, don't really know what else I'd say.

I honestly don't get where the Zannah = Bane argument even comes from. I mean it's supported nowhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sarro also has plenty of combat experience from the war, is physically honed to perfection and shows no lack of other aspects of combat ability. I don't see why we should poo poo him when the text fellates the hell out of his dueling skills. What does Meetra have that he lacks? And why would that give her an edge over a far greater version of Zannah?



Whereas Zannah's basically does and how her style functions leaves little room for Surik to use her incredible skills to get through. Surik can't even match Sarro's display, she's not strong or quick enough for that. So what's her big play to penetrate the shield?



Wait, why are they sheltered from the gravity effects? I don't recall the academy having an anti-gravity force field or something set up. And if that's true then Surik would be free of that restriction while fighting as well. Plus I question how much benefit the assassins would get from a nexus considering their power mostly comes from Meetra, not themselves. And the Storm Beats evolved to live in intense gravity and being on top of a force wound? Ok.

Traya doesn't remotely compare to Bane as a duelist. She's a one armed old woman with no saber feats. Also force power plays a big part even in lightsaber dueling.



Surik has T3 decipher the contents back on her ship. The whole trip to Nathema is them running into a building, downloading the shit and legging it back to their ship. Selenial was wrong about the length of her stay by a lot.



That doesn't mean she couldn't rest before pushing further into the academy. As you say they were all in separate rooms and separated by hallways and shit. Not to mention that she'd be absorbing power from them as she went, which could replenish her stamina.



Meaningless statements. You've offered no practical benefit for Surik.



In lightsaber combat Bane is much better than Vader.

Also prove it.



Yet in their final duel Zannah was able to intercept Bane's strikes easily and he wasn't able to conventionally get through her shield wall. Also remember than Bane was the one to come up with Zannah's lightsaber style and her tactics, so it's no surprise that given 20 years of time he'd be able to think of a way around her wall, even if he had to rely on indirect methods to do so.



What odds were stacked against her when she dueled Atris? If anything Atris should have been winded from fighting Brianna. And Traya isn't a notable duelist. Not even in the same country as Bane. Also being a master duelist is incredibly generic. I'd expect basically every non-consular Jedi Master to have achieved that level of skill. It's meaningless.

Sarro Xaj has no feats off of Battle Meditation that compares to Meetra Surik's feats. Meetra Surik took on Darth Sion in the second most powerful nexus in the galaxy and dominated him utterly over four engagements, he was repeatedly replenishing his strength whilst she was weak and getting more tired.

Meetra Surik took on Atris a master of lightsaber combat with full mastery over Juyo and defeated her in lightsaber combat, despite Atris' holocron amplification and FLS attacks.This implies great agility and speed on Surik's part.

Meetra Surik with barely any re-training took down the five Handmaidens simultaneously and they marvelled at her combat prowess. After training with the Exile, Brianna accomplishes the same feat in seconds.

Meetra Surik took internal amplifications such as Force Valor to it's highest possible degree so she very likely is faster than Sarro Xaj.

Darth Traya is incredibly quick and could dodge point-blank lightsaber strikes with ease. Meetra Surik defeated her.

Vias Marr, the shadow hand of Darth Nihilus and top assassin could not defeat Surik despite Surik not having a lightsaber and this happened repeatedly.

Surik is quite evidently a Jedi Guardian as displayed in the manner of her victories, her blade's color and perhaps most important is the fact she was an apprentice of Kavar before the war and followed his example as stated in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide. If the Exile was not a Guardian then Kavar states that he wanted to take you as his apprentice and train you as a Guardian because you were so skilled.

Later in the game Kavar himself teaches you a form and says you are already mastering it, this is the same Master Kavar that was famous across the galaxy, particularly among the Mandalorians for his martial prowess and blade mastery. One must wonder how skilled Kavar was considering that Atris, the historian, was a master of lightsaber combat herself.

Thus as the evidence suggests she has her own mastery over all lightsaber forms as the Jedi Council masters have stated if Guardian is chosen.

The Trayus Academy is stated to be a refuge from Malachor V's greatest dangers I believe in the Prima Guide.

The Sith Assasins were accompanied by many Sith Marauders, Sith Lords, Sith Masters and Elite Sith Troopers. Legions of elite Sith as the Prima Guide dictates.

Darth Traya had full knowledge of the Lightsaber forms, given that her being Arren Kae is blatantly obvious then she was clearly a great warrior with immense skill throughout the Mando War. She has clear martial prowess and considering the Sourcebooks state kinetic lightsaber combat requires a master of saber combat and mastery of telekinesis to implement then her ability is undouted.

What is further impressive is that Traya simply states the Jedi Exile has as much knowledge and skill of combat as she does once training with Visas Marr ends.

Precognition is obviously helpful, the only meaningless statements here are you asinine dismissals of the entire technique simply to suit your argument.

Darth Bane doesn't come close to Darth Vader as a duelist, whether based on hype or accomplishments.

The official Prima Guide states you have to fight through a legion of elite Sith before reaching Darth Sion.

As proven earlier Zannah attempting to kill Bane, even once he had no weapon or his full strength was an imbecilic strategy on her part.

Atris had Sith Holocrons to draw strength from and was utilising both Force Lightning Storm attacks and Drain Life throughout the combat, but as the Campaign Guide states, Atris' pride was no match for the Exile's lightsaber prowess.

What you have failed to prove is how Zannah even kills Meetra Surik, her offensive capabilities are severely lacking by comparison and the Exile has vastly superior feats of stamina and endurance and the precognitive ability to see any offence coming and capitalise on her lightsaber's weakness.

Meetra Surik has demonstrated the experience and reaction timing that allowed her to analyse her opponents and their weaknesses in half a second before killing them all seconds later. A feat that impressed Scourge greatly. That elongated hilt, stated to be even longer than the norm for saberstaffs is a huge weak point in combat. Capitalise on that and half of Zannah's defensive capability is shot.

The entire argument for Meetra's feats outside of "Revan" is based on a game. Which, if we take as unfiltered cannon, would tell us that Meetra had about 15 different light saber combinations and no more etc. Books > games by a mile for cannon. Its the same as history, the information is only as good as the source.

Read the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, the Prima Guide and the New Essential Chronology.

Of which hardly any of which was used to write her medium powered character in Revan. The guides all have the same problem you seem to, that they drew from the game, not the writers.

This is fallacious, the sourcebooks draw a strong picture for the characters of the eras they cover and echo canonical events as seen in the books.

The Revan novel appearance does not negate the prior events and statements describing those events in any form.

looool Star Wars has a very long tradition of negating past cannon. And the writers violate old star wars books and source books on a regular basis.
Han shot first!!! Go read the Secret History of Star Wars from cover to cover a few times.

Of course there are consistencies but suggesting all guides and sourcebooks are irrelevant because of that is a ludicrous suggestion.

Ugh, AP why did you have to write so much? Why can no-one but me be succinct?

Zenix, no one cares about your views on canon. Instead of wasting your time and lowering your credibility over why games and books are meaningless, try to actually participate and accept how we do things here or expect the casual "lol everyone look at him and laugh." Ignoring C-Canon content because you don't like how it is expressed goes against the forum rules of these boards, and if continued might get you banned.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Zenix, no one cares about your views on canon. Instead of wasting your time and lowering your credibility over why games and books are meaningless, try to actually participate and accept how we do things here or expect the casual "lol everyone look at him and laugh." Ignoring C-Canon content because you don't like how it is expressed goes against the forum rules of these boards, and if continued might get you banned.

My thoughts precisely, sans the egotistical 14 year old way they're presented.

There are multiple reasons why Meetra's portrayal in the Revan Novel don't fit with the original game that don't involve us just saying "nah **** canon m8". Hell, her purely melee comparative feats outstrip Revans own in that novel, including her speed feats and probably even resistance.

Though Ant will of course argue that.

Perhaps you should educate yourself on the characters you're discussing, before stepping into the ring with the big dogs, hmm?

Originally posted by zEniX
Of which hardly any of which was used to write her medium powered character in Revan. The guides all have the same problem you seem to, that they drew from the game, not the writers.
Medium powered? Based on what?

1. She was stated to be a match for one of the greatest warriors of the Empire.

2. She survived in Nathema's environment for a while

3. Her powers worked in Dromund Kaas, a planet strong in the dark side.

4. She outdueled two Imperial Guard individuals simultaneously, an extraordinary display of martial skill and power. (Imperial Guard match well-trained Jedi and Sith in skill and power on average.)

5. She gave the mighty Emperor a pause.

Seriously, her single loss is being blown out of proportion by some people. Nobody have flawless record in the mythos. Nobody.

Revan struggled against some Mandalorians in a battle in Rekkiad. So is he mediocre too?

The novel actually promotes Meetra as a powerful Jedi and an expert swordsman, with feats and accolades.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane had to use the environment to injure her in that manner, pushing her back until she tripped on a grave moments from Force-pwning him. Before that point he was unable to penetrate her defenses in a conventional manner.
I know.

However, she lacked stamina and power to go toe-to-toe with Bane for long in martial aspects of combat, therefore her realization that she won't last long in this manner.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Bane was only the merest fraction slower than he'd once been and a tiny sliver less physically strong.
Powerful and well-trained Force-users are extremely fast by human standards. For them, a fraction worth of change can mean the difference between life and death in combat situations against some foes.

Bane also had a problem with his left hand.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was when Zannah was still an apprentice and 10 years before her prime. It's like basing Kotor 2 Meetra on her abilities in the Mandalorian Wars. Also even though Zannah was being overwhelmed, it's still incredibly impressive that she managed to survive as long as she did against the sheer level of speed and power Bane was using against her. Deflecting what appeared to her to be a dozen lightsabers at once is impressive as hell.
Thanaton attacked Jedi Master Hulis with a dueling move so fast that he generated 19 after-images in the process. However, Hulis turned out to be an exceptionally skilled swordsman and successfully countered Thanaton's attack. In contrast, Thanation casually dismissed Hulis's apprentice (a different event).

Bane's speed feat is really impressive but not an extraordinary one, and it doesn't proves that he can contend with virtually everybody in martial aspects of combat in the mythos. Zannah's ability to duel with Bane is another reminder of Bane's limitations. However, Bane is officially superior duelist then Zannah and both of the statements that I quoted from a novel reiterate the fact that Bane would slaughter Zannah in a strictly martial duel.

I really admire Bane and Zannah at personal capacity but I also see their limitations.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra got chumped by Nyriss. Lets not act as if her resume is flawless here.
Nobody have flawless resume in the mythos.

Even Luke and Sidious don't have flawless resume.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Medium powered? Based on what?

1. She was stated to be a match for one of the greatest warriors of the Empire.

2. She survived in Nathema's environment for a while

3. Her powers worked in Dromund Kaas, a planet strong in the dark side.

4. She outdueled two Imperial Guard individuals simultaneously, an extraordinary display of martial skill and power. (Imperial Guard match well-trained Jedi and Sith in skill and power on average.)

5. She gave the mighty Emperor a pause.

Seriously, her single loss is being blown out of proportion by some people. Nobody have flawless record in the mythos. Nobody.

Revan struggled against some Mandalorians in a battle in Rekkiad. So is he mediocre too?

The novel actually promotes Meetra as a powerful Jedi and an expert swordsman, with feats and accolades.

1. Who hasn't?

2. Surviving Nathema is totally ambiguous and we are given no reason to think this would be a problem for any Jedi or Sith unless perhaps they stayed there for an extended period of time.

3. I honestly cannot think of a Jedi whose power didn't work on a planet strong in the dark side.

4. "Imperial Guard match well-trained Jedi and Sith in skill and power on average." Citation from the book?

5. Once again very ambiguous and most likely stemming from the combination of Revan, Her, and Scouge. Not to mention the emperors paranoia.

More to the point. In Revan, Nyriss > Meetra which somehow means Nyriss >> Zannah if Meetra > Zannah.

"It is not that ambiguous. Nathema is a setting completely devoid of the Force energy. A Force-user experiences Sever Force level stresses on this setting and enduring such level of stress for even an hour is big deal.

Life cannot exist in absence of the Force in the mythos. Nathema is the only setting which puts this theory to test and satisfies it."

That isn't to say that surviving it is a feat of power. In the complete absence of the force your power in it is irrelevant.

Revan, Nyriss > Meetra which somehow means Nyriss >> Zannah if Meetra > Zannah.

Which if we follow that logic and assume that
Luke > Revan and lets say Revan is 95% of Luke.
Revan > Nyriss with Nyriss at say 80% of Revan.
Nyriss > Meetra and say Meetra is 80% of Nyriss since she and Scourge together were inferior to her.
Then we say that
Meetra > Zannah with Zannah at 90% of Meetra
Then we are left with
Luke > Zannah with Zannah at only 54.72% of Luke.
Which when you consider that for example say Saba, Kyp, or Corran, are at least 75% of Luke in FOTJ would curb stomp Zannah and Bane.

Originally posted by zEniX

Luke > Revan and lets say Revan is 95% of Luke.

Originally posted by zEniX
Luke in FOTJ would curb stomp Zannah and Bane.

Just realize that the numbers I put in would indicate Luke could basically take on 2 of Zannah and 2 of Bane at the same time and still win. If you think that's valid then cool, I do not. (The reason is the numbers i used for Nyriss vs. Meetra and Scourge. Meaning that basically 100 vs. 2*80 is a win for the 100 without a question)

As far as FOTJ Luke > Revan. Luke like Anakin has the greatest natural force potential of any Sith or Jedi as stated by Lucas. So it would only come down to training with Revan starting at a disadvantage.

If however we instead say that
Zannah > Meetra with Meetra at 90% of Zannah
Then we can ignore Nyriss vs. Meetra and Scourge.
If we do assume that then
Luke > Revan and lets say Revan is 95% of Luke.
Revan > Nyriss with Nyriss at say 80% of Revan.
Nyriss > Zannah with Zannah 90% of Nyriss (I don't buy this equal power at least imo but w/e)

Then we are left with
Luke > Zannah with Zannah at only 68.4% of Luke.
Which still means Saba, Kyp, or Corran, would beat Bane and Zannah (which I don't buy) but not by much.

And Luke would still Curb Stomp Bane and Zannah which means Stigma is happy although personally I don't buy Luke curb stomping both of them together, winning maybe but not that.

I haven't seen that logic being applied to debates since Kenobi's ranking systems on Star Wars Forums.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I haven't seen that logic being applied to debates since Kenobi's ranking systems on Star Wars Forums.

Which doesn't mean it doesn't make a valid point. It is, however, definitely far far from infallible because it's dependent on valid estimates to begin with.

It's not a valid point. That's not how Star Wars fights works my friend. You can't put a number on a guy and deem it their power.

inb4 Sas mentions Star Wars: Point Squad

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's not a valid point. That's not how Star Wars fights works my friend. You can't put a number on a guy and deem it their power.

Why not? Sure it doesn't guarantee a person with more power will win, ie Luke vs. Abeloth where a number is literally stated that she has a dozen times Luke's power and Luke still wins. However, if we start arguing on the basis of luck good fortune and the will of the force then why argue at all? Then it is purely opinion with nothing to back it up which can't be negated by a convenient plot device.

You are including factors like strengths/weakness, battle mindsets, differences in forms, specific powers overcoming others, etc etc.

Because it is based on nothing but your opinion? It also disregard variables that lean one way or the other. Luke slash never defeated Abeloth alone.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are including factors like strengths/weakness, battle mindsets, differences in forms, specific powers overcoming others, etc etc.

Which only would apply to particular fights between individuals. The numbers I'm putting up are the initial conditions of the fight based roughly on force powers and general lightsaber levels.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because it is based on nothing but your opinion? It also disregard variables that lean one way or the other. Luke slash never defeated Abeloth alone.

Quite true Luke never did nor would he be like to be able to. Why? Basically because Abeloth just has too much raw power. You throw in enough raw power and the facters Darth Ant is talking about fall away. If a battle thread says Kyle Katan vs. Luke people do not analyze the styles weaknesses etc. they just say Luke curb stomps Kyle.
You are also quite right the numbers are merely my opinion, feel free to post what numbers you think are valid and do the math yourself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I know.

However, she lacked stamina and power to go toe-to-toe with Bane for long in martial aspects of combat, therefore her realization that she won't last long in this manner.

Wrong. Zannah's stamina and power were fine. When she used her full defensive abilities she more than adequately blocked a full on assault from Bane. Bane had to change tactics from pure offense to a more unpredictable, tactical style after she did this because he recognised that he wouldn't get through her defense even if he went all out on her. Only after she trips on the grave and Bane injures her by stomping on her does Zannah make the estimation that she wouldn't last. Because she's injured, not because she was outmatched in stamina or power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Powerful and well-trained Force-users are extremely fast by human standards. For them, a fraction worth of change can mean the difference between life and death in combat situations against some foes.

Bane also had a problem with his left hand.

Zannah notes during their duel that Bane is still faster than she could have imagined. Which strongly suggests that Bane was still faster than he had been in RoT, despite diminishing by a miniscule amount from his peak (which would therefore be after RoT at some point). Also I highly doubt it's as significant as you say. The merest fraction slower than he had once been is a tiny difference, utterly insignificant. And even then Bane is far faster than anything Meetra has shown.

Which didn't impact him in his duels.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton attacked Jedi Master Hulis with a dueling move so fast that he generated 19 after-images in the process. However, Hulis turned out to be an exceptionally skilled swordsman and successfully countered Thanaton's attack. In contrast, Thanation casually dismissed Hulis's apprentice (a different event).

Bane's speed feat is really impressive but not an extraordinary one, and it doesn't proves that he can contend with virtually everybody in martial aspects of combat in the mythos. Zannah's ability to duel with Bane is another reminder of Bane's limitations. However, Bane is officially superior duelist then Zannah and both of the statements that I quoted from a novel reiterate the fact that Bane would slaughter Zannah in a strictly martial duel.

I really admire Bane and Zannah at personal capacity but I also see their limitations.

LOL. Thanaton was spinning his double-bladed lightsaber in a circle. That's utterly unimpressive in terms of speed and utterly incomparable to Bane individually moving his arms for each strike and attacking so fast that he appears to be wielding a dozen sabers.

No, it's pretty damn extraordinary. What's Meetra done that compares? Nothing at all. Zannah's ability to hold off that kind of speed indicates how impressive her defense is, even halfway through her training. Bane would slaughter the Zannah in RoT, who was still just an apprentice, yes. But by DoE she was capable of handling him in a strict duel. Your conclusion is completely without merit.

You should try seeing Meetra's as well. You have a nasty habit of lecturing people on seeing the limitations of their characters while being blind to those of your own.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nobody have flawless resume in the mythos.

Even Luke and Sidious don't have flawless resume.

Bane would treat Meetra in the exact same manner Nyriss did.

Zannah also recognizes that if he hadn't switched tactics, or if he decided to switch back, she'd be at a major disadvantage, though.




:up




More or less this, though this time there wouldn't be a nexus involved, which helps somewhat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane would treat Meetra in the exact same manner Nyriss did.

Right, Meetra is weak. You have to be looser, like Nihilus or Sion to be beaten by her.

Sion is a bit of a loser, yes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zannah also recognizes that if he hadn't switched tactics, or if he decided to switch back, she'd be at a major disadvantage, though.

Sure, if he continued to come at her fully she'd have to fully defend herself and couldn't build up the power for her sorcery. Who'd win if he did that I'm not sure. I'm not seeing that as a disadvantage though.

Sion loses to Atton. No excuse.
Originally posted by zEniX

You are also quite right the numbers are merely my opinion, feel free to post what numbers you think are valid and do the math yourself.
Arguments based solely on arbitrary don't really lead anywhere. I'm not going to make up numbers. I'm going to look at the feats themselves and see how they relate to each other.

Why so much writing. >_<

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sarro Xaj has no feats off of Battle Meditation that compares to Meetra Surik's feats.

Which doesn't matter since Zannah fought him while he was under Battle Meditation so it counts when talking about him compared to Zannah.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra Surik took on Darth Sion in the second most powerful nexus in the galaxy and dominated him utterly over four engagements, he was repeatedly replenishing his strength whilst she was weak and getting more tired.

Meetra Surik took on Atris a master of lightsaber combat with full mastery over Juyo and defeated her in lightsaber combat, despite Atris' holocron amplification and FLS attacks. This implies great agility and speed on Surik's part.

Meetra Surik with barely any re-training took down the five Handmaidens simultaneously and they marvelled at her combat prowess. After training with the Exile, Brianna accomplishes the same feat in seconds.

Meetra Surik took internal amplifications such as Force Valor to it's highest possible degree so she very likely is faster than Sarro Xaj.

Darth Traya is incredibly quick and could dodge point-blank lightsaber strikes with ease. Meetra Surik defeated her.

Vias Marr, the shadow hand of Darth Nihilus and top assassin could not defeat Surik despite Surik not having a lightsaber and this happened repeatedly.

Nothing you mentioned is beyond what Zannah is also capable of. You don't think Zannah could also beat Traya, Atris, Visas and Sion as well? Chumps all. At least in terms of dueling. Also I'm not seeing why Meetra would be faster than Sarro merely because she has Force Enlightenment. And DoE Zannah is faster than Sarro as well, so it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik is quite evidently a Jedi Guardian as displayed in the manner of her victories, her blade's color and perhaps most important is the fact she was an apprentice of Kavar before the war and followed his example as stated in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide. If the Exile was not a Guardian then Kavar states that he wanted to take you as his apprentice and train you as a Guardian because you were so skilled.

Later in the game Kavar himself teaches you a form and says you are already mastering it, this is the same Master Kavar that was famous across the galaxy, particularly among the Mandalorians for his martial prowess and blade mastery. One must wonder how skilled Kavar was considering that Atris, the historian, was a master of lightsaber combat herself.

Thus as the evidence suggests she has her own mastery over all lightsaber forms as the Jedi Council masters have stated if Guardian is chosen.

So Meetra is highly skilled and a saber master. Awesome. I'm sure Zannah and Bane tremble before her. Any Jedi can master a lightsaber form, the degree to which they wield it is the important part. Kas'im was a far superior saber master than Meetra ever was and had utterly perfected all the forms. Meetra's nebulous grasp over these forms doesn't confer her superiority to Zannah and still gives her no way of penetrating her defense on top of Zannah's superior strength, speed and force power. Regardless, your point is based off of assumptions, gameplay mechanics and extrapolations instead of concrete evidence.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Trayus Academy is stated to be a refuge from Malachor V's greatest dangers I believe in the Prima Guide.

You mean Sith? No shit.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Sith Assasins were accompanied by many Sith Marauders, Sith Lords, Sith Masters and Elite Sith Troopers. Legions of elite Sith as the Prima Guide dictates.

I can't tell what the heck this is in response to or what the exact relevance is. Are you trying to establish numbers? Cuz I'm not seeing a hundred Sith in that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Traya had full knowledge of the Lightsaber forms, given that her being Arren Kae is blatantly obvious then she was clearly a great warrior with immense skill throughout the Mando War. She has clear martial prowess and considering the Sourcebooks state kinetic lightsaber combat requires a master of saber combat and mastery of telekinesis to implement then her ability is undouted.

What is further impressive is that Traya simply states the Jedi Exile has as much knowledge and skill of combat as she does once training with Visas Marr ends.

Traya is also a one-armed old woman and she wouldn't remotely compare to Bane even in the Mando Wars if she was Kae. And I believe that second paragraph is cut content?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Precognition is obviously helpful, the only meaningless statements here are you asinine dismissals of the entire technique simply to suit your argument.

I've repeatedly asked you to elaborate on how helpful it would be and you seem stumped as to the practical benefit of it. Besides which just because Meetra has battle precog doesn't mean it's a significant advantage or suggestive of her abilities with it. Remember that theres huge variations in that techniques effectiveness.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Bane doesn't come close to Darth Vader as a duelist, whether based on hype or accomplishments.

Bane would beat the shit out of Vader's clunky crippled ass.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The official Prima Guide states you have to fight through a legion of elite Sith before reaching Darth Sion.

Do you have the quote? You seemed unsure of what the guide said earlier yet now you're stating it as fact. So I'd just like to check.

Originally posted by AncientPower
As proven earlier Zannah attempting to kill Bane, even once he had no weapon or his full strength was an imbecilic strategy on her part.

That's a little extreme. She was actually going to kill him eventually. Only the explosives saved him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Atris had Sith Holocrons to draw strength from and was utilising both Force Lightning Storm attacks and Drain Life throughout the combat, but as the Campaign Guide states, Atris' pride was no match for the Exile's lightsaber prowess.

And Atris > Zannah + Bane fo sure!

Also I'm pretty sure lightning storm and drain are, like, game mechanics? Is it actually stated she was using those?

Originally posted by AncientPower
What you have failed to prove is how Zannah even kills Meetra Surik, her offensive capabilities are severely lacking by comparison and the Exile has vastly superior feats of stamina and endurance and the precognitive ability to see any offence coming and capitalise on her lightsaber's weakness.

Similarly you've failed to prove the same. There's no way for Meetra to get through Zannah's defenses. And Zannah's big thing is stamina and her style is extensively based around minimising effort on her part and staying fresh. She also has far greater force reserves to call on than Meetra does. And Meetra doesn't have her companions here to leech energy from. So Zannah will comfortably outlast her. And Zannah's tactic is to wait until opponents are exhausted to attack, so any counterattack will be feeble indeed. And Zannah was able to counter a furious assault from Bane while on the ground after being viciously stomped and with broken ribs. She still repelled all of his strikes and successfully disengaged. So I highly doubt Meetra will be able to capitalise on anything when Bane couldn't capitalise on the perfect circumstances.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra Surik has demonstrated the experience and reaction timing that allowed her to analyse her opponents and their weaknesses in half a second before killing them all seconds later. A feat that impressed Scourge greatly. That elongated hilt, stated to be even longer than the norm for saberstaffs is a huge weak point in combat. Capitalise on that and half of Zannah's defensive capability is shot.

Funny how absolutely no-one ever even attempted to go for Zannah's hilt. Some weakness. Zannah can easily evade that with a minor movement to the side or by slightly angling herself. And Meetra's reaction time is nothing on Zannah's, who outstrips lightning in that regard and is easily able to visually track a bolt in motion. Zannah was also able to analyse opponents in mere moments and identify their weaknesses.

"Trayus Academy is the home of those Jedi who have succumbed the to dark side taint of Malachor V. To reach the structure's core, where Darth Sion and Kreia await, must face a legion of elite Sith single-handedly."

Edit: And: She brushes aside any offer you make to show mercy or lead her to redemption, and there's no choice but to fight for your life... As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya is a master of lightsaber combat. In addition, she commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force Storm.

Thanks.

"Darth Traya" Refers to Atris btw, as she took the mantle of Traya. It describes the confrontation on Telos.

Yeah, Ant said.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Funny how absolutely no-one ever even attempted to go for Zannah's hilt. Some weakness. Zannah can easily evade that with a minor movement to the side or by slightly angling herself. And Meetra's reaction time is nothing on Zannah's, who outstrips lightning in that regard and is easily able to visually track a bolt in motion. Zannah was also able to analyse opponents in mere moments and identify their weaknesses.
Yes, between:

Sarro Xaj having elevated combat to it's highest form, having several accolades to his speed strength and skill even without BM, and being clearly insanely familiar with the saberstaff, attacking Zannah from several unpredictable angles while amped up on BM. (before Zannah's prime)

Set Harth attacking from every conceivable angle in a relentless barrage.

Darth Bane assaulting her twice. The first time being before Zannah's prime, and the second time being when Bane had refined his technique to be far more unpredictable and when his fighting style involved prodding for weaknesses. Prior to either of these fights, Bane was already familiar with every move and maneuver that could be executed with a saberstaff.


In 3 of these 4 engagements, she was facing an opponent intimately familiar with a saberstaff. In 2 of these 4 engagements Zannah had not yet reached her prime, and in 2 of these 4 engagements she was facing Darth Bane, who is both the man who trained her, and is a greater offensive duelist than Meetra Surrik. In none of these engagements did Zannah's elongated hilt prove to be a weakness, which would make sense since Zannah completely mastered Soresu and tailored her defensive fighting style around her weapon.

Neph

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why so much writing. >_<


Because it's their style of debate to be verbose? :hmm

Could be worse, the posts could be all fluff and about twice as long

Now those were always SO much fun to respond to...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes, between:

Sarro Xaj having elevated combat to it's highest form, having several accolades to his speed strength and skill even without BM, and being clearly insanely familiar with the saberstaff, attacking Zannah from several unpredictable angles while amped up on BM. (before Zannah's prime)

Set Harth attacking from every conceivable angle in a relentless barrage.

Darth Bane assaulting her twice. The first time being before Zannah's prime, and the second time being when Bane had refined his technique to be far more unpredictable and when his fighting style involved prodding for weaknesses. Prior to either of these fights, Bane was already familiar with every move and maneuver that could be executed with a saberstaff.


In 3 of these 4 engagements, she was facing an opponent intimately familiar with a saberstaff. In 2 of these 4 engagements Zannah had not yet reached her prime, and in 2 of these 4 engagements she was facing Darth Bane, who is both the man who trained her, and is a greater offensive duelist than Meetra Surrik. In none of these engagements did Zannah's elongated hilt prove to be a weakness, which would make sense since Zannah completely mastered Soresu and tailored her defensive fighting style around her weapon.

Neph

All of this and the Neph part too.

Thought I'd fill in for dear AP and trash Neph for a bit.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why so much writing. >_<
Because there's a ridiculous amount of proof that Meetra > Zannah.


Take out ability to wield the force, in any manner other than bolstering bladework, and yes. Atris and Traya would Trash Zannah, if again they were on Nexuses that drowned out Zannah's ability to use the force and bolster their own.


I like that you're randomly using Kas'im as the standard now, because **** logic and all that Jazz. And as we've been saying for the past few years, Lightsaber duels do not come down to skill alone. Meetra is faster, more agile, and has a greater stamina than Zannah. And for the love of god stop acting like Kas'im was inferior to Bane, we don't actually know that. The fact that Kas'im was simply better with Ataru, a form Bane was unfamiliar with, does not mean Bane was more skilled simply because he didn't know that form and so his loss doesn't count.

In fact, Meetra, just like Kas'im, has an incredible amount of knowledge and styles to use. Should she fail with any form she may switch, should she fail with a single blade, out comes two. She incorporates Echani strikes and general battle precognition into combat, so Zannah's already frankly laughable offense becomes even worse.


Seeing as the Exile managed to predict and counter the movements of an Echani master of combat, perfectly. In fact, Brianna speaks of how the Exile had already mastered the technique subliminally before meeting her, that training would make her far more dangerous. She compared Surik's abilities in precognition to Revan's, and we know how that works out.



I'm saving this for the next time you try to say you're an unbiased debater

*Massive Snip of stuff I already replied to*




Zannah's stamina has nothing on Surik's, literally nothing. She tanked through massive gravitational anomalies, on an incredibly potent dark side world, stormed through hordes of Storm beasts that could shatter ribs and kill men in a single hit, a "legion" of Sith assassins, Sion 4 times and then STILL managed to perform well enough in Saber combat to beat an opponent stronger in the force, who was also on a nexus.

No but sure, Zannah lasting a semi decent amount of time in a single duel totally compares.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes, between:

Sarro Xaj having elevated combat to it's highest form, having several accolades to his speed strength and skill even without BM, and being clearly insanely familiar with the saberstaff, attacking Zannah from several unpredictable angles while amped up on BM. (before Zannah's prime)

Set Harth attacking from every conceivable angle in a relentless barrage.

Darth Bane assaulting her twice. The first time being before Zannah's prime, and the second time being when Bane had refined his technique to be far more unpredictable and when his fighting style involved prodding for weaknesses. Prior to either of these fights, Bane was already familiar with every move and maneuver that could be executed with a saberstaff.


In 3 of these 4 engagements, she was facing an opponent intimately familiar with a saberstaff. In 2 of these 4 engagements Zannah had not yet reached her prime, and in 2 of these 4 engagements she was facing Darth Bane, who is both the man who trained her, and is a greater offensive duelist than Meetra Surrik. In none of these engagements did Zannah's elongated hilt prove to be a weakness, which would make sense since Zannah completely mastered Soresu and tailored her defensive fighting style around her weapon.

Neph

And because of the spinning of her blades, to actually hit the hilt you'd need to use a thrust attack otherwise the blade would be pushed aside by her defense. Thrusts are generally telegraphed with a wind up, making Zannah's job easier.

Is Neph saying a character who has insane endurance feats will be winded down by Zannah spinning her lightsaber in a circle again?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Is Neph saying a character who has insane endurance feats will be winded down by Zannah spinning her lightsaber in a circle again?

It appears so.

Beating the Great Storm Beast alone is enough of a strength feat to break Zannah's defenses, TBH.

Originally posted by Selenial
Seeing as the Exile managed to predict and counter the movements of an Echani master of combat, perfectly. In fact, Brianna speaks of how the Exile had already mastered the technique subliminally before meeting her, that training would make her far more dangerous. She compared Surik's abilities in precognition to Revan's, and we know how that works out.


Now, is the bolded a plausible comparison?

Sure

Is it substantiated by Brianna's word?

Not particularly

Brianna's never even met him or seen him in combat to actually even begin to know if her comparison is valid, it's mostly speculation on her part

That said, I'm sure Surik has actual feats to back up the comparison, it's just using Brianna's word and passing it off as substance is kind of wanting :maybe

That said, I'm pretty much nitpicking a minor part of a rebuttal for a post that was otherwise a pretty good one

I don't recall anyone comparing Revan's precog to anyone. In fact:

"Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him."
―Brianna (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

Then again I kind of lost interest after the Revan wank was over, but I would like a quote.
If said quote does exist, I argue it is because of her Wound, not actual combat prowess.

Not really the point I was getting at, but yeah I'm curious where it came from too now

It's been years since I played KOTOR2 and all, I just vaguely remember Brianna mentioning Revan

Still a weak point of argument regardless, but its mostly my thing nowadays to point out where an argument can be strengthened.

*shrug*
"Only Revan has ever demonstrated such a skill " "Can you Teach me how to do this?" "You are already doing it If you are doing it without realising it, then training will make you a deadly opponent indeed"

Kinda paraphrasing because writing it all out is hella effort, but yeh, she says that after the third sparring session, at least in my save game. Sure I can find a video on youtube if that's not enough.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Not really the point I was getting at, but yeah I'm curious where it came from too now

It's been years since I played KOTOR2 and all, I just vaguely remember Brianna mentioning Revan

Still a weak point of argument regardless, but its mostly my thing nowadays to point out where an argument can be strengthened.

Fair enough, it was a weak point. I guess the point was that Surik has shown precognition against forms of fighting she knows nothing about, enough to astound an actual Echani.
Surely precognition against attacks and forms she has "mastered" would be even easier for her.

Originally posted by Selenial
*shrug*
"Only Revan has ever demonstrated such a skill " "Can you Teach me how to do this?" "You are already doing it If you are doing it without realising it, then training will make you a deadly opponent indeed"

Kinda paraphrasing because writing it all out is hella effort, but yeh, she says that after the third sparring session, at least in my save game. Sure I can find a video on youtube if that's not enough.
Just saw it. She wasn't comparing the Exile to Revan, especially stating that after training will merely make her deadly-- Revan was basically worshiped by the Echani according to Avellone.
---
That being said, while it doesn't compare to Revan's precog, it is superior to Zannah's.

Originally posted by Selenial
Thought I'd fill in for dear AP and trash Neph for a bit.

Rude.

Originally posted by Selenial
Because there's a ridiculous amount of proof that Meetra > Zannah.

More like there's a lot of beating up featless, hypeless losers which clearly puts her above someone who contended evenly with the Sith'ari.

Originally posted by Selenial
Take out ability to wield the force, in any manner other than bolstering bladework, and yes. Atris and Traya would Trash Zannah, if again they were on Nexuses that drowned out Zannah's ability to use the force and bolster their own.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq305/6231025/gifs%203/laugh-gif.gif~original

Ok, sure thing sis. You are totally right, however can Zannah beat those two. I mean Atris is a lightsaber master and she... and...... well she..... ah, uh.... and **** you she doesn't even need anything else. That's totally better than Zannah. As well Traya beating Zannah is so obvious that we don't even need to elaborate. Not because there's f*ckall backing up her abilities or anything. There's a ridiculous amount of proof. She dodged the Handmaidens attacks (in cut content) and she's Arran Kae, obviously and totally officially, and obviously therefore is better than Zannah.

Originally posted by Selenial
I like that you're randomly using Kas'im as the standard now, because **** logic and all that Jazz. And as we've been saying for the past few years, Lightsaber duels do not come down to skill alone.

Skill is the only aspect that Meetra actually rivals Zannah in so you probably shouldn't push that line to much.

Originally posted by Selenial
Meetra is faster,

Hell no.

Originally posted by Selenial
more agile,

Nope.

Originally posted by Selenial
and has a greater stamina than Zannah.



Originally posted by Selenial
And for the love of god stop acting like Kas'im was inferior to Bane, we don't actually know that.

That's true, we totally don't know that at all.

"The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway."

oh wait what

Originally posted by Selenial
The fact that Kas'im was simply better with Ataru, a form Bane was unfamiliar with, does not mean Bane was more skilled simply because he didn't know that form and so his loss doesn't count.

Sure, Kas'im becoming utterly desperate and running full steam away doesn't suggest Bane was better at all.

Originally posted by Selenial
In fact, Meetra, just like Kas'im, has an incredible amount of knowledge and styles to use. Should she fail with any form she may switch, should she fail with a single blade, out comes two. She incorporates Echani strikes and general battle precognition into combat, so Zannah's already frankly laughable offense becomes even worse.

I only recall her possessing the one lightsaber in the novel. Could be wrong though. And she can switch forms if she wants, there's no trick she can pull that'll help her here. Echani strikes will only get her hands buzzsawed off, so that'll go well.

Originally posted by Selenial
Seeing as the Exile managed to predict and counter the movements of an Echani master of combat, perfectly. In fact, Brianna speaks of how the Exile had already mastered the technique subliminally before meeting her, that training would make her far more dangerous. She compared Surik's abilities in precognition to Revan's, and we know how that works out.

Man, I must be really foggy in my memories because I don't really that at all. Are you talking about sparring with Brianna? Also lol, no she isn't compared to Revan.

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm saving this for the next time you try to say you're an unbiased debater

*Massive Snip of stuff I already replied to*

It's my unbiased opinion that Bane is the far greater duelist than Vader. Faster, more mobile, comparably skilled and strong, more powerful etc.

Originally posted by Selenial
Zannah's stamina has nothing on Surik's, literally nothing. She tanked through massive gravitational anomalies, on an incredibly potent dark side world, stormed through hordes of Storm beasts that could shatter ribs and kill men in a single hit, a "legion" of Sith assassins, Sion 4 times and then STILL managed to perform well enough in Saber combat to beat an opponent stronger in the force, who was also on a nexus.

No but sure, Zannah lasting a semi decent amount of time in a single duel totally compares.

Yes, I know.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Skill is the only aspect that Meetra actually rivals Zannah in so you probably shouldn't push that line to much.


Pretty much the only part of your post I can be bothered to address seeing as I have no investment in this actual debate

By your board's standards?

Surik has far greater showings in strength than Zannah has just by virtue of walking on Malachor V, so... no, skill isn't the only area she "rivals" Zannah by the standards of your board

Now, do you want me to give you an actual number on that? Or would you just go "lalala don't like this" and ignore it if I did :hmm

Neph standing strong.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Pretty much the only part of your post I can be bothered to address seeing as I have no investment in this actual debate

By your board's standards?

Surik has far greater showings in strength than Zannah has just by virtue of walking on Malachor V, so... no, skill isn't the only area she "rivals" Zannah by the standards of your board

Now, do you want me to give you an actual number on that? Or would you just go "lalala don't like this" and ignore it if I did :hmm

Yeah, I'd ignore you. The surface of the planet isn't that badly affected. Bao'Dur's fricking remote can easily hover around without issues and there were many survivors the the MSG trapped on Malachor (stated in the Kotor CG), who couldn't protect themselves with the force. So normal humans can survive on the planet.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Neph standing strong.

If that's standing strong, then lol.

I'm on my phone so I guess I have to leave it to AP, but I lold that he conveniently ignores that Kas'im whaps out a second blade and pimp slaps bane all over the shop like the peon he is.

Despite that literally being the only part of the fight I referenced.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I'd ignore you. The surface of the planet isn't that badly affected. Bao'Dur's fricking remote can easily hover around without issues and there were many survivors the the MSG trapped on Malachor (stated in the Kotor CG), who couldn't protect themselves with the force. So normal humans can survive on the planet.
What? Scores of "powerful" Jedi got corrupted by merely feeling the presence of Malachor V from orbit.

Originally posted by Selenial
If that's standing strong, then lol.

I'm on my phone so I guess I have to leave it to AP, but I lold that he conveniently ignores that Kas'im whaps out a second blade and pimp slaps bane all over the shop like the peon he is.

Despite that literally being the only part of the fight I referenced.

Well then you messed up that reference by talking about Ataru instead of Jar'Kai. I pointed out that Bane demonstrably was better than Kas'im without Kas'im pulling out the second saber.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? Scores of "powerful" Jedi got corrupted by merely feeling the presence of Malachor V from orbit.

..... Which has nothing to do with strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys
..... Which has nothing to do with strength.
Oh my bad, thought we were discussing mental resistance strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I'd ignore you. The surface of the planet isn't that badly affected. Bao'Dur's fricking remote can easily hover around without issues and there were many survivors the the MSG trapped on Malachor (stated in the Kotor CG), who couldn't protect themselves with the force. So normal humans can survive on the planet.

Sure it wasn't

Other than being so ****ing fractured it was turned into 3 seperate planetoids :lmao

That's a feat for remote chuckles, it's propulsion would be that strong. It's not an actual rebuttal, not sure how you can pass it off as one.

Ah, you suffer from the delusion that normal soldiers in star wars aren't minorly super human.

Right, I forgot where I was for a second, my bad :maybe

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well then you messed up that reference by talking about Ataru instead of Jar'Kai. I pointed out that Bane demonstrably was better than Kas'im without Kas'im pulling out the second saber.



..... Which has nothing to do with strength.

Simply pulling 2 sabers doesn't make it Jar'kai, I thought it was described as Ataru, and the Wookiee certainly makes that distinction.

It has nothing to do with Ataru, Bane was flummoxed by the second saber, not anything to do with forms. Ataru isn't mentioned.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Sure it wasn't

Other than being so ****ing fractured it was turned into 3 seperate planetoids :lmao

That's a feat for remote chuckles, it's propulsion would be that strong. It's not an actual rebuttal, not sure how you can pass it off as one.

Ah, you suffer from the delusion that normal soldiers in star wars aren't minorly super human.

Right, I forgot where I was for a second, my bad :maybe

You're assuming the MSG was affecting the planet as strongly as when it was first turned on. Which is obviously false since the remote specifically needs to repair and reactivate it, which will destroy the planet. IIRC it was purely Malachor's natural gravity that Meetra experienced. Or else the MSG was achieving very minor results.

Minorly super human doesn't compare to Zannah. Who is fully super human. If a normal person can survive on the planet then Meetra doing so proves nothing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're assuming the MSG was affecting the planet as strongly as when it was first turned on. Which is obviously false since the remote specifically needs to repair and reactivate it, which will destroy the planet.

Actually, I was left with the impression it was still active from the dialogue.

It should have drifted apart a long time ago otherwise, it was only fused together to tentatively due to the gravitational anomaly IIRC



Nada, Surik even reflects on how hellish the gravity of the planet was in Revan

http://i.imgur.com/uOgxnT6.png



I'm aware

Hell, given shit with a significantly weakened Khem Val and Rakghouls from TOR, I sort of figure most of you are better off just ignoring some of the more pithy strength feats in the series and powerscaling off them.

Well, I suppose Carthage will continue to jokingly insist Rakghoul >>> Malgus in jest or some shit, but eh.

Neph's posts and claim that Bane is a better duelist than Vader are better jokes than I could ever devise.

Originally posted by carthage
Neph's posts and claim that Bane is a better duelist than Vader are better jokes than I could ever devise.

No need to insult him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No need to insult him.

"Bane would beat the shit out of Vader's clunky crippled ass."

There really is. It's the only way he'll learn...

What was he suppose to say, "his luscious, smooth ass"?

Not turning this into an Anti Bane fest, continue with the discussion about Zannah and Surik.

I only even posted because Chaos mentioned me

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What was he suppose to say, "his luscious, smooth ass"?

Yes

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No need to insult him.

They're technically insulting his argument

Not so much him personally

Which is acceptable where I normally post

Granted, this is here, and where I post you also need to have substance to your post that's on topic and relevant to refutation, but eh :maybe

Originally posted by carthage

I only even posted because Chaos mentioned me





So are you a dog or some kind of demon? :hmm

Can't imagine invoking a name would summon someone otherwise :maybe

When I speak, my slaves follow.

I am the Rakghoul that killed Darth Malgus

Rakghoul, demon, dog, close enough

Originally posted by Selenial
"Bane would beat the shit out of Vader's clunky crippled ass."

There really is. It's the only way he'll learn...

Insulting me only makes it more likely I'll ignore you or not bother responding.

Zannah = fodder

Sorry I stopped reading Neph's posts when he stated Vader would get his ass kicked by Bane and realised that regardless of quality on my part, said arguments would be dismissed out of hand by unsupported bias and hype.

It was nice whilst it lasted however.

Stop making fun of neph, Rayla.

Who exactly is that? if I'm being harassed yet again please make such clear as I simply report it. I'm here because I was here ten years ago and simply returned due to SWF closing and TheForce.Net being a PT wankfest.

You were on SWF?

More of a stalker yes but it was fun reading the unending debates, I learned considerable amounts from that place.

Do the Jedi Council Forums even have a versus board?

...eh.

You have the exact same opinions, word style, and disposition as Rayla. I mean to the dot perfectly exact. And Rayla (who I deduce is you) also came from TFN and spoke of a certain member, Niarcmorn I believe it was, who I know you also mentioned before.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sorry I stopped reading Neph's posts when he stated Vader would get his ass kicked by Bane and realised that regardless of quality on my part, said arguments would be dismissed out of hand by unsupported bias and hype.

It was nice whilst it lasted however.

Bane vs Vader is an unrelated topic. My opinions on it have nothing to do with this one. So it's a bit arbitrary for it to be your breaking point on this.

It is one thread where OPs or mods post a list of fights and usually it comes down to consensus with people stating names. On a day where the mods are off we can get away with actually debating the fights first.

So yes it essentially is discouraged and even mostly banned but it does happen, if rarely. Unfortunately PT era rules there regardless of character.

That sucks.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
...eh.

You have the exact same opinions, word style, and disposition as Rayla. I mean to the dot perfectly exact. And Rayla (who I deduce is you) also came from TFN and spoke of a certain member, Niarcmorn I believe it was, who I know you also mentioned before.

So because I hold respect for the Old Sith Wars era suddenly this makes all who share said opinions the same person? This is beyond ludicrous.

Niarcmorn is one of the most popular debaters from a good five years ago and was on nearly every forum, I guess because we've both referred to EvanNova before then you and I are the same person as well. Your logic is infallible.

Originally posted by AncientPower
EvanNova is infallible.

Kyle Katarn > Dooku via superior stamina

To be perfectly honest Katarn is horribly under-rated around here.

You rate every character to the exact extent Rayla does, not just Exar Kun and the like. I mean, your very word style mimics hers. And of course if the Niarcmorn (how many people have actually heard of this guy?) thing was the only thing I'd had to say, than you could insult my logic all you want. Except it isnt.

And why are you being defensive all of a sudden? I'm not accusing you of lying or anything, I'm simply deducing that you are who others and myself believe you to be.

Originally posted by AncientPower
To be perfectly honest Katarn is horribly under-rated around here.

No he isn't?