Morrison's Multiverse!

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Galan007
I'm creating this thread with the intent that it will act as both a compendium and reference-source for those interested in Morrison's take on DC cosmology. So without further adieu...


The 52


http://i.imgur.com/WLNAVYY.png

Earth 0: http://i.imgur.com/tDB1tDb.jpg
Earth 1: http://i.imgur.com/13KnVbF.jpg
Earth 2-3: http://i.imgur.com/hBmS3M1.jpg
Earth 4: http://i.imgur.com/EbEULjm.jpg
Earth 5: http://i.imgur.com/nX64dgk.jpg
Earth 6-7: http://i.imgur.com/ohVMRYc.jpg
Earth 8-9: http://i.imgur.com/vXfYg5Q.jpg
Earth 10: http://i.imgur.com/Gt8Ckmt.jpg
Earth 11-12: http://i.imgur.com/EAFvGV0.jpg
Earth 13: http://i.imgur.com/OKHMtUb.jpg
Earth 14-15: http://i.imgur.com/3Weoigg.jpg
Earth 16: http://i.imgur.com/dwFioZq.jpg
Earth 17: http://i.imgur.com/JgBoyaX.jpg
Earth 18-19: http://i.imgur.com/xwxCKAH.jpg
Earth 20: http://i.imgur.com/k1lH5ZB.jpg
Earth 21: http://i.imgur.com/hWS4NAK.jpg
Earth 22: http://i.imgur.com/xzgLuEY.jpg
Earth 23: http://i.imgur.com/GYKTf4L.jpg
Earth 24-26: http://i.imgur.com/ANVsKcM.jpg
Earth 27-29: http://i.imgur.com/hLXMe18.jpg
Earth 30: http://i.imgur.com/TJQq9iZ.jpg
Earth 31-32: http://i.imgur.com/tmqGUZc.jpg
Earth 33 (Ultra Comics/Earth Prime): http://i.imgur.com/wtibjoI.jpg
Earth 34-35: http://i.imgur.com/G2seSf0.jpg
Earth 36-37: http://i.imgur.com/S8mFxkG.jpg
Earth 38-39: http://i.imgur.com/L3ZtwhU.jpg
Earth 40-41: http://i.imgur.com/Qvjlk7Y.jpg
Earth 42: http://i.imgur.com/M5l07he.jpg
Earth 43: http://i.imgur.com/hpbZdp2.jpg
Earth 44-45: http://i.imgur.com/I09qKIU.jpg
Earth 46-47: http://i.imgur.com/jBaSmh6.jpg
Earth 48: http://i.imgur.com/Gr4MUQH.jpg
Earth 49-50: http://i.imgur.com/meR7ksA.jpg
Earth 51: http://i.imgur.com/wCXLhXM.jpg

Map of the Multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/Yp1QeUQ.jpg

Endless Mike
This is quite useful, good work

Galan007
Thanks, Mike. I welcome any additions to this thread, so long as they are centered around Morrison's Multiverse/cosmology. That being said...

On Earth 51, BiOMAC located numerous RL comics within Darkseid's tomb--a bonafide guide to the history of the DCU. Said comics not only detailed the original discovery of the pre-Crisis Multiverse, but also chronicled the events of:
-Crisis on Infinite Earths
-Zero Hour
-Infinite Crisis
-52/Countdown
-Final Crisis
-Flashpoint
http://i.imgur.com/kdiFFX7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KKXBGbP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NbAhIwP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/68uKLUQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pRU62QH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QpaZrZT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TI0fY3j.jpg


I also wanted to place more emphasis on this panel, as Hypertime was once again referenced as part of DC cosmology:
http://i.imgur.com/2D2onQk.png


The above considered, the events of Multiversity do not appear to be set in pre-Flashpoint continuity, as some may have previously thought.

-Pr-
Which Earth is preboot? Or is there not one?

Galan007
As of now, there isn't a preboot Earth that has been revealed within Morrison's Multiverse. However, there are "7 UNKNOWN WORLDS" among the 52, which reside in Universes: 14, 24, 25, 27, 28, 46, 49. Evidently these Worlds were created by an Inner Chamber of 7 Monitor Magi for a mysterious purpose yet to be revealed:
http://i.imgur.com/pfRLIdk.png
http://i.imgur.com/iuhVO9N.png

So yeah, anything is still possible. thumb up

Golgo13
What do you think the 7 unknown world's are?

Galan007
I honestly have no clue what the Unknown Worlds might be. Only time/future issues will tell...

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
Thanks, Mike. I welcome any additions to this thread, so long as they are centered around Morrison's Multiverse/cosmology. That being said...

On Earth 51, BiOMAC located numerous RL comics within Darkseid's tomb--a bonafide guide to the history of the DCU. Said comics not only detailed the original discovery of the pre-Crisis Multiverse, but also chronicled the events of:
-Crisis on Infinite Earths
-Zero Hour
-Infinite Crisis
-52/Countdown
-Final Crisis
-Flashpoint
http://i.imgur.com/kdiFFX7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KKXBGbP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NbAhIwP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/68uKLUQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pRU62QH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QpaZrZT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TI0fY3j.jpg


I also wanted to place more emphasis on this panel, as Hypertime was once again referenced as part of DC cosmology:
http://i.imgur.com/2D2onQk.png


The above considered, the events of Multiversity do not appear to be set in pre-Flashpoint continuity, as some may have previously thought.
That's absolutely brilliant. So all those events still happened.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Galan007
As of now, there isn't a preboot Earth that has been revealed within Morrison's Multiverse. However, there are "7 UNKNOWN WORLDS" among the 52, which reside in Universes: 14, 24, 25, 27, 28, 46, 49. Evidently these Worlds were created by an Inner Chamber of 7 Monitor Magi for a mysterious purpose yet to be revealed:
http://i.imgur.com/pfRLIdk.png
http://i.imgur.com/iuhVO9N.png

So yeah, anything is still possible. thumb up

Okay man, thanks.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
As of now, there isn't a preboot Earth that has been revealed within Morrison's Multiverse. However, there are "7 UNKNOWN WORLDS" among the 52, which reside in Universes: 14, 24, 25, 27, 28, 46, 49. Evidently these Worlds were created by an Inner Chamber of 7 Monitor Magi for a mysterious purpose yet to be revealed:
http://i.imgur.com/pfRLIdk.png
http://i.imgur.com/iuhVO9N.png

So yeah, anything is still possible. thumb up

Has the 7 Monitor Magi appeared, yet? I don't remember. Also, it says WORLDS, so these worlds might not be an alternate earth.

ares834
They are earths. They are called Earth 14, Earth 24, etc... Also it's mentioned that 49 is "the most mysterious of 7 unknown Earths". With that said, one of these unknown Earths (14) seems quite intresting and unique as evident by that fact that it is sorta doubled on the map (it's right above Earth 0 on the map). It's opposite is also Bizaroworld which is the only other unusual shaped Earth.

Blair Wind
So, if Flash is always at the center of everything and the Speed Force is what chooses the Flashes, what/who is the Speed Force and is it what is ultimately in control?

krisblaze
Great job man.

Thank god Morrison's adding some consistency to this whole shebang. Much needed!

You should try applying this new information when rereading Final Crisis, especially Superman Beyond. Adds a whole new level of flow to it.

Galan007
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's absolutely brilliant. So all those events still happened. Yes. Morrison essentially canonized every major event/continuity DC's ever had. This doesn't mean he'll use them... But he at least recognizes their existence within this event. thumb up

Originally posted by Blair Wind
So, if Flash is always at the center of everything and the Speed Force is what chooses the Flashes, what/who is the Speed Force and is it what is ultimately in control? Hard to say... But Libra said the same basic thing about speedsters back in Final Crisis:
http://i.imgur.com/KV9Bl6d.png

Golgo13
Originally posted by Golgo13
Has the 7 Monitor Magi appeared, yet? I don't remember.

operator616
I really have no idea why Morrison - along with others that ive seen, like encyclopedias for instance - consider the Barry/Jay meeting as being the issue where the discovery of the multiverse takes place. Not only did Wonder Woman discover it before him in the golden age, but Barry himself, in that same comic book title, goes to another universe/dimension for the first time in Flash #108. Flash #116 even begins having designations for those universes/dimensions. While the "discovery of the multiverse" is credited as happening in Flash #123.

Neither is the concept of alternate versions for that matter. Again, in a flash comic (golden age), All-Flash #11, featured an alternate version of the Flash (Jay, back then) and Joan.

Flash #123 put a link between the golden age and the silver age; establishing that the heroes of the golden age reside on Earth-Two, while the silver age heroes on Earth-One, that's what it did (along with the fact that Jay/Barry became aware of it), but it never discovered the multiverse. The idea that the Flash is at the "center of everything" seems to be forced, tbh.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Has the 7 Monitor Magi appeared, yet?

no.

Digi
So, which one is Wildstorm? I was disappointed not to see it in the list.

operator616
Post-FP, Wildsotorm was incorporated into Earth-0 (mainstream Earth).

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
I really have no idea why Morrison - along with others that ive seen, like encyclopedias for instance - consider the Barry/Jay meeting as being the issue where the discovery of the multiverse takes place. Not only did Wonder Woman discover it before him in the golden age, but Barry himself, in that same comic book title, goes to another universe/dimension for the first time in Flash #108. Flash #116 even begins having designations for those universes/dimensions. While the "discovery of the multiverse" is credited as happening in Flash #123.

Neither is the concept of alternate versions for that matter. Again, in a flash comic (golden age), All-Flash #11, featured an alternate version of the Flash (Jay, back then) and Joan.

Flash #123 put a link between the golden age and the silver age; establishing that the heroes of the golden age reside on Earth-Two, while the silver age heroes on Earth-One, that's what it did (along with the fact that Jay/Barry became aware of it), but it never discovered the multiverse. The idea that the Flash is at the "center of everything" seems to be forced, tbh.



no.

that classic wonder woman stuff never actually went on to say that what she saw was a universe though--only a twin earth. splitting hairs, maybe, but the grander idea of a SERIES of parallel earths was never entertained at all. other dimensions had been mentioned a few times after that wonder woman story as well--adventures on other worlds for example had the concept of the 4th dimension established.

i think the aspect of that classic flash #123 that has made it so important is the fact that barry actually READ about jay in comics in barry's world. the meta-textual approach was the first of its kind and was enormously original--and really it's the concept morrison has taken to the nth degree with this series.

i think the first ever official designation of earth 1 and 2 didn't happen until the jla/jsa x-over in 1963. garrick was of course part of that jsa team. that was also one of the first BIG events (as they were considered back then) and even used CRISIS in the titles for the first time--CRISIS ON EARTH 1 and CRISIS ON EARTH 2. but it really only had legs because of the flash story imo. gardner fox wrote both the jla story and the earlier flash. no one knows him, but he really was that era's grant morrison. i think that's why morrison went to such lengths as to even SHOW scenes from that flash book AND the x-over in the guidebook. dude KNOWS his history and isn't afraid to acknowledge the work of his predecessors. mucho respect for that alone.

the unknown worlds are a great addition. i also LOVED how he mentioned hyper time in the book a couple times.

this empty hand character seems to be the one responsible for the gentry and everything else. maybe responsible for the speed force? can't wait.

great idea galan. thumb up

VastoLord1234
So DC is back to being ONE multiverse of 52 universes, with Prime-Earth back to being New Earth?

BeyonderGod
The Presence > Grant Morrison

ares834
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
So DC is back to being ONE multiverse of 52 universes, with Prime-Earth back to being New Earth?

Earth 0 is New Earth. Earth Prime is Earth 33. And it implies that there is more than a single multiverse by calling the 52 the "local multiverse".

leonidas
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
So DC is back to being ONE multiverse of 52 universes, with Prime-Earth back to being New Earth?

yes to the first part though each earth universe may in effect have their own multiverse. maybe. this book is one of the reasons i waited to give my impression of the dc-verse. laughing out loud

no to the second though. earth-prime is actually earth 33. it is a thinly failed version of US, the real world. it's the only world where the monitors wrote down the history of the dc-verse in the form of "fictional stories." the residents' thoughts are believed to become reality in other universes.

lol that is soooo f'n sweet. anyway, the new worlds (the new multiverse) were said to have come into being by spreading through HYPERTIME. as it stands, it is definitely a structured multiverse, bounded by the overvoid (source wall). everything else fits neatly within the bounds. now, does that mean this model will be used forever, bu every writer? lol no...... of course not. someone will come in and throw around the term omniverse, raise other inconsistencies, whatever. given the number of creative personages at dc who contributed to this effort, i think it safe to say this is and should be considered the definitive model of the current dcu. least imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by ares834
Earth 0 is New Earth. Earth Prime is Earth 33. And it implies that there is more than a single multiverse by calling the 52 the "local multiverse".

yeah, that was an odd comment. i took that to mean that each of the individual universes could contain other universes within them, all bounded by the overvoid, of which there is only one. seems to be there is only one monitor sphere and maybe even only one limbo the way it is described. could be an infinite number of universes within the spheres though i guess. maybe?

a second thought--the idea of 'local multiverse' may also be a veiled nod to other comic universes--ie marvel. might just be a way of suggesting the cubes can't take them to other comic-verses. i think both interpretations are viable.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by ares834
Earth 0 is New Earth. Earth Prime is Earth 33. And it implies that there is more than a single multiverse by calling the 52 the "local multiverse".

I didnt mean earth-prime, i meant prime-earth, home to the new 52 mainstream universe? Earth-Prime is home to superboy prime iirc. Besides the new earth pic showed the new 52 costumes.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by leonidas
yes to the first part though each earth universe may in effect have their own multiverse. maybe. this book is one of the reasons i waited to give my impression of the dc-verse. laughing out loud

no to the second though. earth-prime is actually earth 33. it is a thinly failed version of US, the real world. it's the only world where the monitors wrote down the history of the dc-verse in the form of "fictional stories." the residents' thoughts are believed to become reality in other universes.

lol that is soooo f'n sweet. anyway, the new worlds (the new multiverse) were said to have come into being by spreading through HYPERTIME. as it stands, it is definitely a structured multiverse, bounded by the overvoid (source wall). everything else fits neatly within the bounds. now, does that mean this model will be used forever, bu every writer? lol no...... of course not. someone will come in and throw around the term omniverse, raise other inconsistencies, whatever. given the number of creative personages at dc who contributed to this effort, i think it safe to say this is and should be considered the definitive model of the current dcu. least imo.

I didnt mean earth-prime, i meant prime earth, the mainstream new 52 universe, in the guidebook they retconned it, turned prime-earth back to new-earth.

I dont know about you, but DC's obssession with 52 pretty much made them a laughing stock in pretty much everyother forum, youtubes going ballistic over DC's obssession, to the point DC had to disable their comments section. And Dans getting hate on facebook for it.

The premise (including mine) seems to be that by restricting a multiverse to 52 universes, DC is restricting creativity, creating an absurd multiverse, which doesnt align with any form of science, and also becoming susceptible to continuinty inconsistencies, as guidelines will be much harsh.

VastoLord1234
Didnt the first issue of Multiversity reveal that Earth 8 is DC's parody of Marvel?

leonidas
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
I didnt mean earth-prime, i meant prime earth, the mainstream new 52 universe, in the guidebook they retconned it, turned prime-earth back to new-earth.

I dont know about you, but DC's obssession with 52 pretty much made them a laughing stock in pretty much everyother forum, youtubes going ballistic over DC's obssession, to the point DC had to disable their comments section. And Dans getting hate on facebook for it.

The premise (including mine) seems to be that by restricting a multiverse to 52 universes, DC is restricting creativity, creating an absurd multiverse, which doesnt align with any form of science, and also becoming susceptible to continuinty inconsistencies, as guidelines will be much harsh.

you mean earth 0? that's the mainstream dcu.

and for the rest--i think you know i don't follow other forums so can't really comment on their opinions. speaking for me, i think what's happening is genius. within each universe is room for practically infinite expansion. it sets up some easy to retain guidelines to PREVENT a colossal continuity screw up like has happened so many times in the past. alternate timelines can still easily be fit within different universes. i can't understand how anyone could say it limits creativity. there NEEDED to be some bounds. just look at the discussion we were having a couple weeks back. no one knew WHAT was going on. by creating a framework with loads of potential i think it keeps everyone from just....doing whatever they want at the COST of continuity. as has happened in dc too many times.

i'd love to here some of the arguments for being against the set up. it's funny--people b!tched about dc because it was too hard to follow, now it seem they're b!tching because someone has laid the groundwork for some organization. to me, he's brought in ideas that haven't been seen in YEARS, tied them together with new ideas and sparked potential for some great stories. i don't seem any limits imposed at all. he even managed to successfully (and not forcibly) bring back the coie and the pre-crisis mythos and come up with a way to viably have characters interact with them again through comics. don't think it gets much cooler than that.

not sure who all these people are who are against it and to each their own. but i think the multiversity has been remarkable on a number of levels. and the mystery worlds will undoubtedly play an important role in adding even greater scope to the setting.

leonidas
well, like i said, not sure about other forum people, but after what you said about people not liking it, i did a little research. this is a great article and the comments seem to suggest a lot of people who like it....it also says some of the same things i said. heh not that THAT has anything to do with why i like it..... smile

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2015/01/the-multiversity-guidebook-is-the-the-most-dc-comic-ever/

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by leonidas
you mean earth 0? that's the mainstream dcu.

and for the rest--i think you know i don't follow other forums so can't really comment on their opinions. speaking for me, i think what's happening is genius. within each universe is room for practically infinite expansion. it sets up some easy to retain guidelines to PREVENT a colossal continuity screw up like has happened so many times in the past. alternate timelines can still easily be fit within different universes. i can't understand how anyone could say it limits creativity. there NEEDED to be some bounds. just look at the discussion we were having a couple weeks back. no one knew WHAT was going on. by creating a framework with loads of potential i think it keeps everyone from just....doing whatever they want at the COST of continuity. as has happened in dc too many times.

i'd love to here some of the arguments for being against the set up. it's funny--people b!tched about dc because it was too hard to follow, now it seem they're b!tching because someone has laid the groundwork for some organization. to me, he's brought in ideas that haven't been seen in YEARS, tied them together with new ideas and sparked potential for some great stories. i don't seem any limits imposed at all. he even managed to successfully (and not forcibly) bring back the coie and the pre-crisis mythos and come up with a way to viably have characters interact with them again through comics. don't think it gets much cooler than that.

not sure who all these people are who are against it and to each their own. but i think the multiversity has been remarkable on a number of levels. and the mystery worlds will undoubtedly play an important role in adding even greater scope to the setting.

Yes Earth 0, also known as Prime-Earth in the New 52.

How can there be infinite expansions on 52 universes? Infinity cannot fit into Finity, thats like me saying i can fit 100 boxes in 1 box. Creativity is restricted to 52 creations, 52 establised storylines. Thats limitation right there, restriction on additional potential stories and creation which can exist if the numbers of universes was increased; making a fixed set, automatically negates any potential, future possibility in creativity, instantly.

I dont know which people you're talking about, but the people who b!tched about dc, was because of that exact reason, it was too hard to follow, not because of the multiverse; but because of two reasons:

1) DC kept announcing New reboots: zero hour, final crisis, 52, infinite crisis, flashpoint; how do you expect anyone to stay consistently with DC, when DC has been constantly soft-rebooting reality continously; on top of that they even tied every solo series together in those respective soft-reboots....not a smart move, considering anyone who wants to get into DC has to now go back and read those major events, which they wont understand unless they keep going back. Now DC is doing the exact same thing with the New 52.

2) DC's lack of appreciation for their own guidelines. DC can wirl around the 52 universes all they like, but unless they stick to that number, they arent going to get any more respect than usual. Lately DC's swirled around infinite universes, neighbouring multiverse, omniverse etc etc, then they do a complete 180, and go back to 52 universes. I mean look at how inconsistent that is, in their action they've forgotten how large heaven is, they didnt include "nowhere", hyperspace, Original Earth 8 from Multiversity#1 and the home universe of the JL 3000.

Theres nothing wrong with a larger multiverse, look at the dark tower, demonbane, even freaking suggsverse (omegaverse), marvel(omniverse) etc etc....most people are easily reading or viewing these fictions without any trouble. This shows that the problem isnt a large cosmology but rather consistency and an easy continuity.

Marvel doesnt have a map, they have an index of terminologies and a huge cosmology, an omniverse, they can reference anything they like, universes, multiverses, hyperspace, negative zone etc etc, and there will never be any continuity trouble or inconsistency, why? because there is no limit, no physical depiction of their cosmology, no branded guideline for finity.

I read that link, seems like very few actually read the comic, judging by their comment, showing their desire to buy it. It still doesnt change the hate DC is getting from every other forum site there is, even Didios own facebook page. Anyway DC getting hate is now a norm anyway, theres no other expectation of them lately; i was hoping the new 52 would provide an opportunity, but clearly convergence crashing with multiversity, blew everything out of the water.

Galan007
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
How can there be infinite expansions on 52 universes? Infinity cannot fit into Finity, thats like me saying i can fit 100 boxes in 1 box. Except... This is a comic book, wherein the impossible becomes possible.

I refer you back to these panels(posted on the first page) which describe the original pre-Crisis Multiverse, as well as Monitor/Anti-Monitor:
http://i.imgur.com/banL0NV.png

http://i.imgur.com/Pr0wA7R.png

http://i.imgur.com/DSbL59I.png

http://i.imgur.com/M1gwFNB.png


As you can see, when the Primal Monitor detected the 'flaw' within itself(the infinite pre-Crisis Multiverse) it contained said flaw by "bottling it" to prevent further spread--this is how/why the Orrery of Worlds was created.

Point: infinite worlds/universes can, and did, exist within a seemingly finite structure. Comics.

leonidas
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
Yes Earth 0, also known as Prime-Earth in the New 52.

How can there be infinite expansions on 52 universes? Infinity cannot fit into Finity, thats like me saying i can fit 100 boxes in 1 box. Creativity is restricted to 52 creations, 52 establised storylines. Thats limitation right there, restriction on additional potential stories and creation which can exist if the numbers of universes was increased; making a fixed set, automatically negates any potential, future possibility in creativity, instantly.

I dont know which people you're talking about, but the people who b!tched about dc, was because of that exact reason, it was too hard to follow, not because of the multiverse; but because of two reasons:

1) DC kept announcing New reboots: zero hour, final crisis, 52, infinite crisis, flashpoint; how do you expect anyone to stay consistently with DC, when DC has been constantly soft-rebooting reality continously; on top of that they even tied every solo series together in those respective soft-reboots....not a smart move, considering anyone who wants to get into DC has to now go back and read those major events, which they wont understand unless they keep going back. Now DC is doing the exact same thing with the New 52.

2) DC's lack of appreciation for their own guidelines. DC can wirl around the 52 universes all they like, but unless they stick to that number, they arent going to get any more respect than usual. Lately DC's swirled around infinite universes, neighbouring multiverse, omniverse etc etc, then they do a complete 180, and go back to 52 universes. I mean look at how inconsistent that is, in their action they've forgotten how large heaven is, they didnt include "nowhere", hyperspace, Original Earth 8 from Multiversity#1 and the home universe of the JL 3000.

Theres nothing wrong with a larger multiverse, look at the dark tower, demonbane, even freaking suggsverse (omegaverse), marvel(omniverse) etc etc....most people are easily reading or viewing these fictions without any trouble. This shows that the problem isnt a large cosmology but rather consistency and an easy continuity.

Marvel doesnt have a map, they have an index of terminologies and a huge cosmology, an omniverse, they can reference anything they like, universes, multiverses, hyperspace, negative zone etc etc, and there will never be any continuity trouble or inconsistency, why? because there is no limit, no physical depiction of their cosmology, no branded guideline for finity.

I read that link, seems like very few actually read the comic, judging by their comment, showing their desire to buy it. It still doesnt change the hate DC is getting from every other forum site there is, even Didios own facebook page. Anyway DC getting hate is now a norm anyway, theres no other expectation of them lately; i was hoping the new 52 would provide an opportunity, but clearly convergence crashing with multiversity, blew everything out of the water.

but you CAN fit a 1000 into one--easily. there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 0. between 0 and 0.1 even, and so on..... there can literally be an infinite number of dimensions in each earth iteration.

all of your fears (and apparently the fears of others) seem completely unsupported as yet--things aren't done. the way the series is selling also seems to suggest people are liking it. in reality, you've no idea (nor does anyone else) what the new stories based on this will be like. there is easily room for any type of story you can imagine though. we now know all fiction in dc is related and exists in stories. that in itself opens up avenues that haven't been opened in 30 years. i think you're also assuming the map is somehow to scale, which it clearly isn't. all the other places and concepts you mentioned may still be fit in, or may be fit in later. there is certainly room for them.

and the reason people have long denounced dc IS because of their cosmology and rebooting--it is those 2 things that DEFINE the dc history. now someone attempts to order things and you seem to think everyone hates it. i've never heard one person on this forum denounce it and the few other forums out there only make up a tiny fraction of readers so we'll have to wait to see how readers really feel about it. the whole reaction seems like a jumping of the gun to me, if indeed it is the way many feel. we also don't know yet how convergence will play out, so it seems pretty silly to me for people to be up in arms leaping to conclusions over what they've seen when the story isn't nearly complete.

as for marvel--they are bounded the same as dc, they just don't label the boundaries. and there are at least 3 different iterations of their cosmology that i can think of off the top of my head, and each is very different from the rest. read tales of the cap britain corp and you get a completely different take on marvel's cosmology from other series. dr strange has illustrated the multiverse and it's totally different from other descriptions (from reed, for instance, or from quasar's adventures). they use terms so interchangeably that it's almost impossible to discuss it. i have first-hand knowledge of that futility. terminology in marvel is basically useless and that is a conclusion almost everyone in the forum subscribes to.

anyway, i apologize to galan--this is off-topic i think. you clearly don't like what morrison is doing and see it as stifling creativity. i absolutely love it and think it will only SPUR creativity. the story isn't finished yet so i'll leave off this discussion for now. perez's ideas for coie was ALSO initially ridiculed and seen as impossible though and that worked out ok. people can think what they want of course, i just couldn't disagree more with the impression you're conveying.

if you want to continue the discussion that's fine, but maybe open a new thread for opinions so we don't tie galan's thread up anymore.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
that classic wonder woman stuff never actually went on to say that what she saw was a universe though--only a twin earth. splitting hairs, maybe, but the grander idea of a SERIES of parallel earths was never entertained at all. other dimensions had been mentioned a few times after that wonder woman story as well--adventures on other worlds for example had the concept of the 4th dimension established.

i think the aspect of that classic flash #123 that has made it so important is the fact that barry actually READ about jay in comics in barry's world. the meta-textual approach was the first of its kind and was enormously original--and really it's the concept morrison has taken to the nth degree with this series.

i think the first ever official designation of earth 1 and 2 didn't happen until the jla/jsa x-over in 1963. garrick was of course part of that jsa team. that was also one of the first BIG events (as they were considered back then) and even used CRISIS in the titles for the first time--CRISIS ON EARTH 1 and CRISIS ON EARTH 2. but it really only had legs because of the flash story imo. gardner fox wrote both the jla story and the earlier flash. no one knows him, but he really was that era's grant morrison. i think that's why morrison went to such lengths as to even SHOW scenes from that flash book AND the x-over in the guidebook. dude KNOWS his history and isn't afraid to acknowledge the work of his predecessors. mucho respect for that alone.


Series, perhaps not. Alternate earth though? Definitely yeah. It even featured an alternate version of her, after all. And the explanation offered for those co-existing Earths fits in with how the others where explained - that the Earths exist alongside each other (in another space/time continuum) vibrating at a different rate (which is why Barry was able to first cross into Earth-two, since he can tune-into and vibrate at any frequency).

Before Flash #123? Sure there were, here's Flash #116 outright designating dimension 24:

http://i.imgur.com/GRcCDws.jpg?1

It should be noted that the term "Cosmos" was used to describe the whole of reality (basically, what we know now as the multiverse). There are lots of example that i can bring up to support that.

And regarding the metatextual part -- i can point out that All-Flash #14 (1940s) was a story where metatextuality took place first. Though not in the same sense which Gardner presented it in Flash #123. So i can see your point on that one. It's irrelevant to the point in question either way though.

btw, 4th dimension was also used differently in the golden age depending on the title. It wasn't always depicted as being a standalone dimension per se. In Green Lantern Quarterly (golden age GL) it was used as a sort of medium through which intangibility can be achieved. In Flash comics (1940s) it was mostly used as a medium through which the concept of teleportation takes place (though in another Flash comics, it was presented as being a standalone dimension with inhabitants of its own), in golden age Superman/AC, time travel; etc...

operator616
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
So DC is back to being ONE multiverse of 52 universes, with Prime-Earth back to being New Earth?

Well not exactly imo. this is Morrison's take on the multiverse, and of course the fact that he tried to explore the whole multiverse, is going to be very contradictory.

Taking only new 52 comics into account. Aside from the fact that titles such as Larfleeze, JLD, and PS merely "referenced" millions or infinite universes, there are clear depictions of universes which Morrison never mentioned. For example, the house of tuath-dan had a dimension of their own which they destroyed. Morrison never mentioned it. Current JLD arc featured a universe where time does not exist. Morrison never mentioned it. Teen Titans featured universes which Trigon destroyed/conquered. Morrison never mentioned them. etc...

You get my point? There are lots of writers, and any writer can create whatever he wishes in a random comic which contradicts Morrison's. So you can't really say "oh well, DC is back to 52 universes again" because of Morrison's comics. If we do that, you'll be going back and forth every week DC comics gets released.

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
Well not exactly imo. this is Morrison's take on the multiverse, and of course the fact that he tried to explore the whole multiverse, is going to be very contradictory.

Taking only new 52 comics into account. Aside from the fact that titles such as Larfleeze, JLD, and PS merely "referenced" millions or infinite universes, there are clear depictions of universes which Morrison never mentioned. For example, the house of tuath-dan had a dimension of their own which they destroyed. Morrison never mentioned it. Current JLD arc featured a universe where time does not exist. Morrison never mentioned it. Teen Titans featured universes which Trigon destroyed/conquered. Morrison never mentioned them. etc...

You get my point? There are lots of writers, and any writer can create whatever he wishes in a random comic which contradicts Morrison's. So you can't really say "oh well, DC is back to 52 universes again" because of Morrison's comics. If we do that, you'll be going back and forth every week DC comics gets released.

Don't forget He-Manverse was said to be at the center of the DC Multiverse. Never mentioned, either.

operator616
Originally posted by Golgo13
Don't forget He-Manverse was said to be at the center of the DC Multiverse. Never mentioned, either.

Yeah. DC is too big to fit into a mere map or guidebook. And that's just 3+ years. Imagine what would happen in the next 10, or 20. It's an impossible task.

Don't get me wrong though; i love how Morrison organized everything and put a lot of thought into it along with details. Im just saying that he didn't take everything into account, probably on purpose. Because, again, it's impossible.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
probably on purpose. Definitely on purpose. He took the 'meat and potatoes' from every major event/continuity thus far and simplified it down as much as he could--ergo the relationship with Flash and whatnot. Paying homage to each and every piece of Multiverse-related-text ever published would be ridiculous--it could be an event in itself, ffs. Obviously he's not going to go that route.

People just need to stop nitpicking, and take this story for what it's worth. I mean, we know it's all bound to change when Convergence hits the shelves anyway, so getting upset over the cosmology it has established so far is a complete waste of time.

Frankly, Morrison has done a stupendous job in detailing his conception of the Multiverse so far. I really wish it would stick.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by Galan007
Except... This is a comic book, wherein the impossible becomes possible.

I refer you back to these panels(posted on the first page) which describe the original pre-Crisis Multiverse, as well as Monitor/Anti-Monitor:
http://i.imgur.com/banL0NV.png

http://i.imgur.com/Pr0wA7R.png

http://i.imgur.com/DSbL59I.png

http://i.imgur.com/M1gwFNB.png


As you can see, when the Primal Monitor detected the 'flaw' within itself(the infinite pre-Crisis Multiverse) it contained said flaw by "bottling it" to prevent further spread--this is how/why the Orrery of Worlds was created.

Point: infinite worlds/universes can, and did, exist within a seemingly finite structure. Comics.

From what i can see, it seems like the overvoid merely contained the multiverse after he sent in the monitor and the anti-monitor, in which case it didnt contain 52 universes out of infinite, but rather the remains of the multiverse after COIE.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by leonidas
but you CAN fit a 1000 into one--easily. there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 0. between 0 and 0.1 even, and so on..... there can literally be an infinite number of dimensions in each earth iteration.

all of your fears (and apparently the fears of others) seem completely unsupported as yet--things aren't done. the way the series is selling also seems to suggest people are liking it. in reality, you've no idea (nor does anyone else) what the new stories based on this will be like. there is easily room for any type of story you can imagine though. we now know all fiction in dc is related and exists in stories. that in itself opens up avenues that haven't been opened in 30 years. i think you're also assuming the map is somehow to scale, which it clearly isn't. all the other places and concepts you mentioned may still be fit in, or may be fit in later. there is certainly room for them.

and the reason people have long denounced dc IS because of their cosmology and rebooting--it is those 2 things that DEFINE the dc history. now someone attempts to order things and you seem to think everyone hates it. i've never heard one person on this forum denounce it and the few other forums out there only make up a tiny fraction of readers so we'll have to wait to see how readers really feel about it. the whole reaction seems like a jumping of the gun to me, if indeed it is the way many feel. we also don't know yet how convergence will play out, so it seems pretty silly to me for people to be up in arms leaping to conclusions over what they've seen when the story isn't nearly complete.

as for marvel--they are bounded the same as dc, they just don't label the boundaries. and there are at least 3 different iterations of their cosmology that i can think of off the top of my head, and each is very different from the rest. read tales of the cap britain corp and you get a completely different take on marvel's cosmology from other series. dr strange has illustrated the multiverse and it's totally different from other descriptions (from reed, for instance, or from quasar's adventures). they use terms so interchangeably that it's almost impossible to discuss it. i have first-hand knowledge of that futility. terminology in marvel is basically useless and that is a conclusion almost everyone in the forum subscribes to.

anyway, i apologize to galan--this is off-topic i think. you clearly don't like what morrison is doing and see it as stifling creativity. i absolutely love it and think it will only SPUR creativity. the story isn't finished yet so i'll leave off this discussion for now. perez's ideas for coie was ALSO initially ridiculed and seen as impossible though and that worked out ok. people can think what they want of course, i just couldn't disagree more with the impression you're conveying.

if you want to continue the discussion that's fine, but maybe open a new thread for opinions so we don't tie galan's thread up anymore.

Keyword is "boxes", we are talking about a structure here, not metaphysics :/ The guidebook has made it clear that the multiverse is a physical thing which can be contained; thus it becomes the same as fitting 100 boxes into a single small, or 1000 mansions inside one small mansion. It cannot work like that at all.

Im not gonna continue this topic either, but might i add Didio did infacts address the hate on DCEntertainment, he even said that convergence is being done as a way to appeal to those who are hating, as a way to apologize, explain and give back to the fans who are angry; Didio himself is recognizing this; its why convergence is acting like an entire reboot, which it probably will be.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by operator616
Well not exactly imo. this is Morrison's take on the multiverse, and of course the fact that he tried to explore the whole multiverse, is going to be very contradictory.

Taking only new 52 comics into account. Aside from the fact that titles such as Larfleeze, JLD, and PS merely "referenced" millions or infinite universes, there are clear depictions of universes which Morrison never mentioned. For example, the house of tuath-dan had a dimension of their own which they destroyed. Morrison never mentioned it. Current JLD arc featured a universe where time does not exist. Morrison never mentioned it. Teen Titans featured universes which Trigon destroyed/conquered. Morrison never mentioned them. etc...

You get my point? There are lots of writers, and any writer can create whatever he wishes in a random comic which contradicts Morrison's. So you can't really say "oh well, DC is back to 52 universes again" because of Morrison's comics. If we do that, you'll be going back and forth every week DC comics gets released.

Im just waiting for Convergence, since its supposed to be the answer to everything, including the continuity errors.

ares834
Nope. Remember the anti-monitor and monitor were in a "coma" for awhile after their first battle.

He also bottles it when it begins to spread which is presumably referring to when the universe split into the multiverse.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Remember the anti-monitor and monitor were in a "coma" for awhile after their first battle.

He also bottles it when it begins to spread which is presumably referring to when the universe split into the multiverse.

Thats just waay too confusing, how could it contain an infinite multiverse when in COIE the infinite multiverse is attacked?

ares834
Comics.

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Remember the anti-monitor and monitor were in a "coma" for awhile after their first battle.

He also bottles it when it begins to spread which is presumably referring to when the universe split into the multiverse. Originally posted by ares834
Comics. thumb up

The Orrery of Worlds bottled/contained the pre-Crisis Multiverse.

leonidas
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
Keyword is "boxes", we are talking about a structure here, not metaphysics :/ The guidebook has made it clear that the multiverse is a physical thing which can be contained; thus it becomes the same as fitting 100 boxes into a single small, or 1000 mansions inside one small mansion. It cannot work like that at all.

Im not gonna continue this topic either, but might i add Didio did infacts address the hate on DCEntertainment, he even said that convergence is being done as a way to appeal to those who are hating, as a way to apologize, explain and give back to the fans who are angry; Didio himself is recognizing this; its why convergence is acting like an entire reboot, which it probably will be.

not metaphysics? neither are scales of infinity. they are mathematical certainties. and all universes are technically boundless, formless--ie., they are not boxes, so the analogy stands pretty firmly. but yeah, there is no reason whatsoever needed beyond it's comics. erm

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616

And regarding the metatextual part -- i can point out that All-Flash #14 (1940s) was a story where metatextuality took place first. Though not in the same sense which Gardner presented it in Flash #123. So i can see your point on that one. It's irrelevant to the point in question either way though.

not really irrelevant in the sense that BOTH the examples cited--yours and mine--deal with a flash being at the heart of things.... in that issue, flash also actively and purposely transported himself to earth 2. i can can't what you're saying about that wonder woman issue, but as i was trying to say, the idea wasn't formalized until flash 123. which is why that issue is so important in dc's history and, imo, supports the notion that flash does indeed seem to be at the heart of things. ie, i don't see him being so important as forced. and that was my only issue with your earlier post. thumb up

operator616
Originally posted by Galan007
Definitely on purpose. He took the 'meat and potatoes' from every major event/continuity thus far and simplified it down as much as he could--ergo the relationship with Flash and whatnot. Paying homage to each and every piece of Multiverse-related-text ever published would be ridiculous--it could be an event in itself, ffs. Obviously he's not going to go that route.

People just need to stop nitpicking, and take this story for what it's worth. I mean, we know it's all bound to change when Convergence hits the shelves anyway, so getting upset over the cosmology it has established so far is a complete waste of time.

Frankly, Morrison has done a stupendous job in detailing his conception of the Multiverse so far. I really wish it would stick.

Definitely. My only regret is Morrison not fitting the 5th dimension into the map. He did write the N52 AC arc where he introduced the 5th dimension, but for some reason never included it in the map. It would have been interesting to see where it stands compared to other realms/worlds/universes.

Originally posted by leonidas
not really irrelevant in the sense that BOTH the examples cited--yours and mine--deal with a flash being at the heart of things.... in that issue, flash also actively and purposely transported himself to earth 2. i can can't what you're saying about that wonder woman issue, but as i was trying to say, the idea wasn't formalized until flash 123. which is why that issue is so important in dc's history and, imo, supports the notion that flash does indeed seem to be at the heart of things. ie, i don't see him being so important as forced. and that was my only issue with your earlier post. thumb up

When i said forced, i was generally speaking, not necessarily because of the Flash #123 issue. Flash may have been at the center of things in those 2 instances, but he's not always at the center of it, or even most of the times. That title goes to Superman and Batman. Superman more-so. That's the reason why Flash never gained any sort of cosmic significance which Superman, Batman and even Diana (who, historically speaking, hasn't been that significant in the history of DCU major events) did, at the time period of IC. Even if we take Barry's discovery of the multiverse as genuine (which imo isn't, but let's say it is), Morrison literally nitpicked the two events where Flash was really at the center of things, and said that he "always" is at the center/heart of it all - which he isn't. That much i have no doubt.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
Definitely. My only regret is Morrison not fitting the 5th dimension into the map. He did write the N52 AC arc where he introduced the 5th dimension, but for some reason never included it in the map. It would have been interesting to see where it stands compared to other realms/worlds/universes. Yeah, that baffled me as well. Especially when the 5th dimension was explicitly mentioned in the very first issue of Multiversity:
http://i.imgur.com/OrUcRPz.png


And during the Pax Americana issue, Captain Adam mentioned 8 dimensions while he was reading Ultra Comics:
http://i.imgur.com/6jgK21U.png


So yeah, it seems rather odd that Morrison wouldn't include higher dimensional planes in his map, when he has personally mentioned them in this very event... Almost too odd, imo.

Regardless, there's still time to include the 5th dimension somewhere in his cosmology. Heck, Zrfff could end up being one of the 7 Unknown Worlds for all we know. /shrug

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
When i said forced, i was generally speaking, not necessarily because of the Flash #123 issue. Flash may have been at the center of things in those 2 instances, but he's not always at the center of it, or even most of the times. That title goes to Superman and Batman. Superman more-so. That's the reason why Flash never gained any sort of cosmic significance which Superman, Batman and even Diana (who, historically speaking, hasn't been that significant in the history of DCU major events) did, at the time period of IC. Even if we take Barry's discovery of the multiverse as genuine (which imo isn't, but let's say it is), Morrison literally nitpicked the two events where Flash was really at the center of things, and said that he "always" is at the center/heart of it all - which he isn't. That much i have no doubt.

this isn't really the place to get into all of this, (we can continue to rehash dc history in a different thread all day if you want) so i'll just say that while yes, i agree superman has definitely been given greater cosmic significance (more than any character in any company has been given) morrison chose flash because it was flash who started the train moving. others may have done more later, but flash was key. barry's role in coie, obviously flashpoint, not to mention his role in bringing a series of parallel worlds to the fore and the metatextual groundwork fox laid which morrison has paralleled, even if strictly speaking it wasn't the first time it was done. we're nitpicking though. we both like what morrison has done, i think we both see the historical significance of why he chose flash--i just find the choice more....appropriate than you?

regardless, the series and ideas presented thus far have been awesome.

as for the missing dimensions--it's pretty tough to include EVERYTHING, especially in a flat representation. i wonder when the concept for the map was developed? maybe before he wrote the text for the series. possible that the map was just finished first and so a couple things were left out. could be the unknown worlds as well i guess. maybe the dimensions just kind of overlay some of the other places?

clearly there is too much--the map can NOT be perfect. still, cool as hell.

VastoLord1234
Wouldnt it be right to put everything aside until convergence finishes? i mean everything until convergence is pretty much temporary.

Galan007
The changes in Convergence will not be permanent--this was stated by the writer when promos for the event first started coming out.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by Galan007
The changes in Convergence will not be permanent--this was stated by the writer when promos for the event first started coming out.

But it was stated to have an impact on DC as a whole, perhaps an after-effect, a change after convergence ends?

Galan007
Once Convergence has concluded, I think DC will be restored to how it was before for the most part. With "Darkseid War" on the horizon, it will kind of have to be back to normal.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm creating this thread with the intent that it will act as both a compendium and reference-source for those interested in Morrison's take on DC cosmology. So without further adieu...


The 52


http://i.imgur.com/WLNAVYY.png

Earth 0: http://i.imgur.com/tDB1tDb.jpg
Earth 1: http://i.imgur.com/13KnVbF.jpg
Earth 2-3: http://i.imgur.com/hBmS3M1.jpg
Earth 4: http://i.imgur.com/EbEULjm.jpg
Earth 5: http://i.imgur.com/nX64dgk.jpg
Earth 6-7: http://i.imgur.com/ohVMRYc.jpg
Earth 8-9: http://i.imgur.com/vXfYg5Q.jpg
Earth 10: http://i.imgur.com/Gt8Ckmt.jpg
Earth 11-12: http://i.imgur.com/EAFvGV0.jpg
Earth 13: http://i.imgur.com/OKHMtUb.jpg
Earth 14-15: http://i.imgur.com/3Weoigg.jpg
Earth 16: http://i.imgur.com/dwFioZq.jpg
Earth 17: http://i.imgur.com/JgBoyaX.jpg
Earth 18-19: http://i.imgur.com/xwxCKAH.jpg
Earth 20: http://i.imgur.com/k1lH5ZB.jpg
Earth 21: http://i.imgur.com/hWS4NAK.jpg
Earth 22: http://i.imgur.com/xzgLuEY.jpg
Earth 23: http://i.imgur.com/GYKTf4L.jpg
Earth 24-26: http://i.imgur.com/ANVsKcM.jpg
Earth 27-29: http://i.imgur.com/hLXMe18.jpg
Earth 30: http://i.imgur.com/TJQq9iZ.jpg
Earth 31-32: http://i.imgur.com/tmqGUZc.jpg
Earth 33 (Ultra Comics/Earth Prime): http://i.imgur.com/wtibjoI.jpg
Earth 34-35: http://i.imgur.com/G2seSf0.jpg
Earth 36-37: http://i.imgur.com/S8mFxkG.jpg
Earth 38-39: http://i.imgur.com/L3ZtwhU.jpg
Earth 40-41: http://i.imgur.com/Qvjlk7Y.jpg
Earth 42: http://i.imgur.com/M5l07he.jpg
Earth 43: http://i.imgur.com/hpbZdp2.jpg
Earth 44-45: http://i.imgur.com/I09qKIU.jpg
Earth 46-47: http://i.imgur.com/jBaSmh6.jpg
Earth 48: http://i.imgur.com/Gr4MUQH.jpg
Earth 49-50: http://i.imgur.com/meR7ksA.jpg
Earth 51: http://i.imgur.com/wCXLhXM.jpg

Map of the Multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/Yp1QeUQ.jpg

Earth 43 is the worst Earth ever.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by Galan007
Once Convergence has concluded, I think DC will be restored to how it was before for the most part. With "Darkseid War" on the horizon, it will kind of have to be back to normal.

Back to the new 52 or pre-flashpoint?

Galan007
DCnU.

kevdude
Here's some scans for the Monitor Watchstation aka The House of Heroes. Harbringer awakens from her sleep and explains to Superman and the others the dangers the Multiverse is facing.

http://i.imgur.com/vs7fhGY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2qDtEm2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lELdGPj.jpg

If we see on the maps, the House of Heroes is right in the middle rotating through the Fifth Dimension within the Orrery of Worlds. I have 2 maps, 1 for the whole DCU and another for just the Orrery of Worlds.

http://i.imgur.com/0Dkczq9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5SJI2U7.jpg

We also see something with a '?" world or whatever it is, pretty close near Chaos. Hope we get to see what that is! smokin'

Digi
Originally posted by operator616
Post-FP, Wildsotorm was incorporated into Earth-0 (mainstream Earth).

Right, I know, but I thought they were bringing back pre-FP universes in that one event soon (Convergence?). Only made sense that the old universes would still be around.

Or something. Maybe I just got my wires crossed.

operator616
Originally posted by Digi
Right, I know, but I thought they were bringing back pre-FP universes in that one event soon (Convergence?). Only made sense that the old universes would still be around.

Or something. Maybe I just got my wires crossed.


Even if pre-FP WS is coming back in Convergence, you wouldn't find it in the multiversity guidebook (the scans which Galan posted) because the guidebook is restricted to featuring only the universes of the N52 continuity. You're basically looking in the wrong place.

appletonia
Has it been confirmed that the Earth One GNs actually take place in the Earth 1 universe of the New 52 multiverse?

Digi
Originally posted by operator616
Even if pre-FP WS is coming back in Convergence, you wouldn't find it in the multiversity guidebook (the scans which Galan posted) because the guidebook is restricted to featuring only the universes of the N52 continuity. You're basically looking in the wrong place.

Ok, but if it's all DC, and it is in fact coming back in some form, it just seems disappointing not to include it. I mean, do we really need a 35th slight variation on the Justice League? And do we need it more than a unique universe of characters that sold extremely well for years?

#poordecisions

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by kevdude
Here's some scans for the Monitor Watchstation aka The House of Heroes. Harbringer awakens from her sleep and explains to Superman and the others the dangers the Multiverse is facing.

http://i.imgur.com/vs7fhGY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2qDtEm2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lELdGPj.jpg

If we see on the maps, the House of Heroes is right in the middle rotating through the Fifth Dimension within the Orrery of Worlds. I have 2 maps, 1 for the whole DCU and another for just the Orrery of Worlds.

http://i.imgur.com/0Dkczq9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5SJI2U7.jpg

We also see something with a '?" world or whatever it is, pretty close near Chaos. Hope we get to see what that is! smokin'

The 5th Dimension is withIN the orrery of worlds?
And dint the Guidebook show that the monitors monitored from outside the multiverse?

VastoLord1234
looks like Convergence is going to have a genuine impact on DC, Post-Convergence will not featuring the New 52 Heading, indicating a major effect as an aftermath:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6mosDcMpw

Galan007
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
looks like Convergence is going to have a genuine impact on DC, Post-Convergence will not featuring the New 52 Heading, indicating a major effect as an aftermath:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6mosDcMpw

Aside from that, we also know 25 of DC's current ongoing series' will remain relatively intact/unchanged after Convergence has concluded... So while DC will drop the "New 52" heading(about time, imo), I don't know if the changes gleaned from Convergence will be as major/all-encompassing as you might think. We'll see, though. /shrug

krisblaze
I'm catching up on multiversity now.

Does anyone have anything definite on the narrative flow in Pax Americana? Order of images, etc.

ares834
It's been awhile but, IIRC, its pretty much all in reverse. So the last scene actually took place first and so on. The exceptions are the interrogation scene (which takes place last IIRC) and the two page spread where 3 different times are shown at once (but they still are in the proper place).

krisblaze
Originally posted by ares834
It's been awhile but, IIRC, its pretty much all in reverse. So the last scene actually took place first and so on. The exceptions are the interrogation scene (which takes place last IIRC) and the two page spread where 3 different times are shown at once (but they still are in the proper place).
thanks!

I have a fever atm, can barely wrap my head around this morrison goodness.

krisblaze
Okay, so this is the current status until we get the latest multiversity:

7 of the worlds are unknown.
7 or more have been invaded by the Gentry
2 or more have been destroyed

Originally posted by Galan007
Earth 0: http://i.imgur.com/tDB1tDb.jpg Preboot/New Earth
Earth 1: http://i.imgur.com/13KnVbF.jpg Safe
Earth 2-3: http://i.imgur.com/hBmS3M1.jpg 2 unknown atm, Earth 3 was destroyed iirc.
Earth 4: http://i.imgur.com/EbEULjm.jpg Was invaded by the end of Pax Americana. The agent of the Gentry was Sgt.Steele I think.
Earth 5: http://i.imgur.com/nX64dgk.jpg Gentry Invasion failed. Agent presumed to be Sivana (Ultra comics in back-pocket).
Earth 6-7: http://i.imgur.com/ohVMRYc.jpgEarth 7 was invaded and destroyed by the Gentry in Multiversity #1, this is where Nix Uotan was caught.
Earth 8-9: http://i.imgur.com/vXfYg5Q.jpg Earth 8 was invaded by the Gentry at the end of Multiversity #1. Lord Havok was their agent and corrupted Nix Uotan was birthed into this universe.
Earth 10: http://i.imgur.com/Gt8Ckmt.jpg Safe for now
Earth 11-12: http://i.imgur.com/EAFvGV0.jpg Safe, but Lady Sivana can be assumed to be this earth's agent of the Gentry and she was seen carrying a comic. 12 also seems safe.
Earth 13: http://i.imgur.com/OKHMtUb.jpg Safe
Earth 14-15: http://i.imgur.com/3Weoigg.jpg 14 is unknown, 15 was destroyed in countdown.
Earth 16: http://i.imgur.com/dwFioZq.jpg Was invaded by the Gentry, and seemingly destroyed, in The Just. Their agent was Alexis Luthor.
Earth 17: http://i.imgur.com/JgBoyaX.jpg Safe/Difficult to say
Earth 18-19: http://i.imgur.com/xwxCKAH.jpg Safe
Earth 20: http://i.imgur.com/k1lH5ZB.jpg Invaded by the Gentry in Society of Super Heroes. Their agents were Vandal Savage and Felix Faust.
Earth 21: http://i.imgur.com/hWS4NAK.jpg Safe
Earth 22: http://i.imgur.com/xzgLuEY.jpg Safe
Earth 23: http://i.imgur.com/GYKTf4L.jpg Safe
Earth 24-26: http://i.imgur.com/ANVsKcM.jpg 24 and 25 are unknown, 26 is somewhat safe
Earth 27-29: http://i.imgur.com/hLXMe18.jpg 27 and 28 are unknown, 29 is safe.
Earth 30: http://i.imgur.com/TJQq9iZ.jpg Safe
Earth 31-32: http://i.imgur.com/tmqGUZc.jpg Safe and Safe
Earth 33 (Ultra Comics/Earth Prime): http://i.imgur.com/wtibjoI.jpg Impossible to say, could be the operative base of the Gentry.
Earth 34-35: http://i.imgur.com/G2seSf0.jpg Safe
Earth 36-37: http://i.imgur.com/S8mFxkG.jpg Safe
Earth 38-39: http://i.imgur.com/L3ZtwhU.jpg Safe
Earth 40-41: http://i.imgur.com/Qvjlk7Y.jpg Invaded by the Gentry in Society of Super Heroes. Their agents were Vandal Savage and Felix Faust.
Earth 42: http://i.imgur.com/M5l07he.jpg Under control by some unknown force.
Earth 43: http://i.imgur.com/hpbZdp2.jpg Safe
Earth 44-45: http://i.imgur.com/I09qKIU.jpg Safe and Safe
Earth 46-47: http://i.imgur.com/jBaSmh6.jpg Unknown and Safe. Earth 47 has Prez from Gaiman's Sandman comic as president?
Earth 48: http://i.imgur.com/Gr4MUQH.jpg Safe
Earth 49-50: http://i.imgur.com/meR7ksA.jpg Unknown and Safe
Earth 51: http://i.imgur.com/wCXLhXM.jpg Invaded by the Gentry in Multiversity Guidebook. Nix Uotan manifested here as well and unleashed Darkseid.

krisblaze
Update, Earth 48 was destroyed by the Two Faced in Battle for the Multiverse #5

ares834
So what did you guys think of Mastermen? It seems to be the most divisive issue of Multiversity yet. Personally, I loved it.

krisblaze
I loved it, but it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be the least popular one.

It's also an example of the Gentry playing both sides of the fence.

Demogorgunn (Sivana) plying his trade with the american terrorist, while Lord Broken works Overman.

Galan007
I wouldn't say that I loved it, but it was definitely an enjoyable story overall.

ares834
Originally posted by krisblaze
I loved it, but it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be the least popular one.

It's also an example of the Gentry playing both sides of the fence.

Demogorgunn (Sivana) plying his trade with the american terrorist, while Lord Broken works Overman.

Actually, Overman was working with the terrorists. He was the traitor that was mentioned.

Nice call on the Sivanas representing Demo though.

krisblaze
Originally posted by ares834
Actually, Overman was working with the terrorists. He was the traitor that was mentioned.

Nice call on the Sivanas representing Demo though.
That's true, but I still think this is the only case where we've seen two of the gentry invade one universe? (Aside from the first incident on Earth-7).

I suppose we've also more or less confirmed that they enter not just through comic-books, but also through dreams.

Galan007
^ We know The Gentry are essentially a meta-textual virus who infect the very concept of 'story' by embedding themselves within it. If a character is then exposed to an infected story/comic, their entire universe becomes susceptible to an assault from The Gentry. Based on that, using a character's dreams/thoughts to segway between universes/comics is a logical step, imo.


Anyway, I can't wait for Ultra Comics next month. Given its massive in-universe importance, it should be an EPIC read. thumb up

krisblaze
Originally posted by Galan007
^ We know The Gentry are essentially a meta-textual virus who infect the very concept of 'story' by embedding themselves within it. If a character is then exposed to an infected story/comic, their entire universe becomes susceptible to an assault from The Gentry. Based on that, using a character's dreams/thoughts to segway between universes/comics is a logical step, imo.
I'm trying to figure out who the Gentry are supposed to be in his Morrison' meta-view.

Like how the monitors were supposed to be editors.

I read a few theories that had them down as "new readers". Or sort of other fanbases that the comic industry try to tap into.

Demogorgunn was also confirmed as the Zombies from Society of Super-heroes.
Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, I can't wait for Ultra Comics next month. Given its massive in-universe importance, it should be an EPIC read. thumb up
Indeed!

Though I hope I'm not setting myself up for a classic Morrison disappointment.

Get all hyped up and then become disappointed the first time I read it....

It might be pure genius the 5th time I read it, but that doesn't do much to soften the blow on that first one...

Blockythe1guy
The Gentry may be supposed to be DC's Executive Meddling, So they can break and ruin stories.

leonidas
Originally posted by krisblaze
I loved it, but it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be the least popular one.

It's also an example of the Gentry playing both sides of the fence.

Demogorgunn (Sivana) plying his trade with the american terrorist, while Lord Broken works Overman.

huh. how'd you get that demo was sivana....?

as for the issue itself--it was ok. def not my fave. doesn't feel as...impactful as some of the others i guess.

krisblaze

leonidas
ahh. tough to realize that with only the brief intro we've had to the gentry. glad you read it though, tbh, cuz i was feeling dumb....

Galan007

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
Could be, but as Morrison said: Demo's proverbial calling card is that he manifests as a group/horde/pack--but in the latest issue only a single Sivana was depicted, iirc. /shrug



Now that I think about it, I suppose the yet unexplained swarm of bugs randomly featured in the first issue could be Demo as well... mmm

nice. thumb up

Juntai
link to interview?

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
link to interview? http://comicsalliance.com/multiversity-interview-grant-morrison/

A lot of good information in that interview, btw. I definitely recommend everyone give it a read. thumb up

Galan007
http://i.imgur.com/jkbQHJE.png

...Implies that the Source predates the Creator/God.

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
http://comicsalliance.com/multiversity-interview-grant-morrison/

A lot of good information in that interview, btw. I definitely recommend everyone give it a read. thumb up I love Grant talking about anything, especially comics. lol.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
http://i.imgur.com/jkbQHJE.png

...Implies that the Source predates the Creator/God.

Where is that from?

Galan007
^ JLD #39.

Originally posted by Juntai
I love Grant talking about anything, especially comics. lol. Absolutely. thumb up

BeyonderGod
Kinda Irrelevant.....

The Presence Multiverse not Morrisons.

Golgo13
Preview for the next issue.

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2015/03/exclusive-preview-interview-grant-morrison-unleash.html

ares834
Damn. This issue is going to rock.

Galan007
Hypertime referenced in the pages of He-Man:
http://i.imgur.com/9jqPAbc.png

Endless Mike
He saw a universe where he was an action figure?

Galan007
Hypertime contains infinite actualities, so yeah. thumb up

Mr Master
^^ Why does he call the Multiverse ... "Hypertime?"

I thought they were separate concepts. Or is DC being restructured like Marvel?

lol at the action figure.

Galan007
Hypertime is the multiverse... Infinite variations of it.

tjcoady
"Hypertime" officially doesn't exist anymore! The cabal of Didio and Johns exiled Mark Waid!

Galan007
Yes, it sure does exist.

Morrison recently referenced Hypertime in the Multiversity Guidebook, and Abnett referenced it in the latest issue of He-Man.

Galan007
May as well throw this in here...

Geoff Johns also regards all previous DC Crises as canon--the DCnU is simply the latest 'transformation' in the cosmological cycle of destruction/rebirth:
http://i.imgur.com/WDZbqhR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iwUxlfR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ioKdRQG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kBgK3oL.jpg
-Justice League #40

This cements Morrison's references to said Crises in the Guidebook. thumb up

Blockythe1guy
And now, Convergence: The Flash #2 has recently referenced Hypertime as well.

But this time. Tangent Superman says that Flash was bound in a Hypertime crisis or something.
https://data.archive.moe/board/co/image/1432/11/1432113553932.jpg

Endless Mike
Flash is the only being who can travel to other universes at will now?

Blockythe1guy
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Flash is the only being who can travel to other universes at will now?

I Think he means about what Barry gonna do in COIE when he ran so fast to stop that anti-matter weapon.

That confused me since this event is taking place in post-flashpoint and this is the Pre-Crisis Flash before COIE happens.

Galan007
After rereading Multiversity a few more times, I had some random thoughts on The Gentry that I figured I may as well post here...


(Part 1/2)


We'll start with how Morrison perceives the 5th dimension, along with its denizens. In his eyes, they are metatextual thought-forms... Pure imagination. He has made his opinion on the matter clear over the years...

That's why it was noted that 5d tech is powered by "pure imagination"--and even emits "thought pollution":
http://i.imgur.com/OxcudtP.jpg

And when Batman asked Bat-Mite if he was an alien hyper-imp from the fifth dimension, or just his imagination, this was Bat-Mite's response:
http://i.imgur.com/xZTNfFJ.jpg
"Imagination IS the Fifth dimension."


That's why 5D denizens can also create metatextual tech/thought-forms(ie. "Super-Doomsday"wink...

"I'm an unstoppable killer franchise from a parallel reality! A thought that gets bigger and bigger the more you think it.":
http://i.imgur.com/SdD7Ikm.jpg

"I'm the thought of a bigger Superman I'm powered by a simple corporate directive: annihilate the competition!":
http://i.imgur.com/QbqJ0lT.jpg


And very recently, Mxy had a page-long dialogue explaining his existence as an imagination-based thought-form:
http://i.imgur.com/eR9BixR.jpg
"I don't need a body. I've lived on, and will live on, in heads. The heads of the authors who write me. I have no vocal cords, and yet right now, you're hearing my voice. I'm living in your head right now Ideas are agency. We are Gods. You are just puppets. As long as there's one of you, there'll be a hundred of us."


...So perhaps the 'super-science' they use in the 5th dimension IS imagination..? mmm


And if you're wondering where Morrison's opinion of the 5th dimension comes from; it stems from an LSD trip he had many years ago:

-Source

Lol


____________________________________________



Now lets have a gander at Morrison's Map of the Multiverse again...

I first want to premise this portion of my post by saying that from an in-universe POV, the Map/Guidebook is literally the blueprint for the whole of DC creation... It is literally how the DC continuum appears from 'above'. That was actually one of the most essential plot-points of Multiversity.


Suffice to say: the above fact was reiterated multiple times during the story:
http://i.imgur.com/AeLJCei.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sfUiPIQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/iFMxqjv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QOsGy5C.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5B4inm7.jpg


In fact, after HARBINGER AI's memory banks were erased by Hellmachine(of The Gentry), the Map/Guidebook was used to completely restore her all-encompassing cosmological knowledge in the space of a few panels:
http://i.imgur.com/jKSLDpc.jpg


Here is the Map itself for a refresher(it will be very important a bit later):

http://i.imgur.com/WtxJ1Mr.png


*Note how the outermost rim of the Map is akin to a spherical RAINBOW.

*You'll also note that the 5th dimension isn't listed on the Map, as it, being pure imagination, transcends the Map all together.


____________________________________________



As for The Gentry, here is how Morrison himself described them:

-Source


They are, in essence, 'bad ideas' taken to the limit... Ideas/imagination gone awry, if you will.

Galan007
(Part 2/2)


When The Gentry are first encountered, Thunderer notes that they are "the Pitless Ones from BEHIND THE INVISIBLE RAINBOW. Opposite of everything natural.":
http://i.imgur.com/mjaUKUF.jpg

Imo, the "invisible rainbow" is describing the ultradimensional circumference which spans all of creation, as depicted in Morrison's Map(posted above)--the final 'barrier' between the Monitor Sphere and the unknowable Source/Overvoid. This suggests that The Gentry hail from beyond the DC continuum...And given that they are pure thought-forms -imagination/ideas gone awry- this suggests they are 5th dimensional beings. Their mastery of the "Anti-Death Equation"(which they used on Nix Uotan) also suggests an origin from beyond the Source/Overvoid, as 'equations' of this magnitude are typically linked directly to The Source.


The Gentry's higher-dimensional status is further solidified by the meta 'attack' they used against Nix:
http://i.imgur.com/Gff6rdb.jpg

Their alteration of the comic book itself, and folding down of the universe on top of Nix, appears to be WELL beyond his comprehension. This suggests it's a technique that is outside/beyond Monitor knowledge-base... A 5th dimensional attack.


And lastly we have Intellectron explicitly being referred to as a 5-D being:
http://i.imgur.com/tnl7mHn.jpg

____________________________________________


All of that being said, I think it's clear that Morrison intended The Gentry to be 5th dimensional beings. But just for a little more icing on the cake, I'll post Mxy's recent metatextual dialogue again:
http://i.imgur.com/eR9BixR.jpg
"I don't need a body. I've lived on, and will live on, in heads. The heads of the authors who write me. I have no vocal cords, and yet right now, you're hearing my voice. I'm living in your head right now Ideas are agency. We are Gods. You are just puppets. As long as there's one of you, there'll be a hundred of us."


That sounds shockingly similar to Intellectron's dialogue here:
http://i.imgur.com/0iyYHXW.jpg


mmm

____________________________________________


As for The Empty Hand(because he is the leader of The Gentry), I think it's obvious at this point that he is a 'gentrified' Ultra Comics... And Ultra Comics is metatextual... Ultra Comics is us--the readers:
http://i.imgur.com/bLYwRLc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8Y5sOOL.jpg


This notion is further solidified by the fact that their symbols are the exact same:
http://i.imgur.com/gmS9je2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PP7fGVO.jpg


So yeah, I believe The Empty Hand IS Ultra Comics. IOW, we are the empty hand. We are the Oblivion Machine. The Gentry is the process through which we break down stories into memories, thoughts, ideas, messages, feelings and all the like -- re-shaping them into something different. It is a destructive process, but it's also one through which heroes gain powers. The door has one side, and opens both ways.



/thoughts

Digi
F*CK

thumb up

This is my struggle with Morrison. His ideas have such depth and beauty to them, but they need a treatise from a superfan to decipher. Final Crisis and the Batman stuff leading up to it was another example. Intelligent, thoughtful readers had no clue what was going on, and if you missed the interview with his big explanation, you just thought it was high-minded pablum.

blair85
This threat is gold. Thanks.

But. Is there no DKR universe anymore? It used to be Earth-31, I think. But 31 is now some "post apocalyptic drowned world."

Don Draper
yeah, excellent stuff galan! Really helped me decipher multiversity!

question though: what exactly is the overvoid?

Galan007
Originally posted by Digi
F*CK

thumb up

This is my struggle with Morrison. His ideas have such depth and beauty to them, but they need a treatise from a superfan to decipher. Final Crisis and the Batman stuff leading up to it was another example. Intelligent, thoughtful readers had no clue what was going on, and if you missed the interview with his big explanation, you just thought it was high-minded pablum. No kidding.

Not only do you have to read this stuff multiple times to fully grasp it(and even then, you're still scratching your head at some parts lol), but Morrison's interview on exactly what The Gentry are is what *finally* made it all click for me. thumb up

Originally posted by blair85
This threat is gold. Thanks.

But. Is there no DKR universe anymore? It used to be Earth-31, I think. But 31 is now some "post apocalyptic drowned world." Could still be one of the Unknown Worlds on his Map... Or maybe Morrison just isn't a fan of DKR, and wanted it stricken from his continuum. stick out tongue

Originally posted by Don Draper
yeah, excellent stuff galan! Really helped me decipher multiversity!

question though: what exactly is the overvoid? The Overvoid, or Primal Monitor(whichever title you prefer) literally represents the blank white page onto which comic books are printed--the pages that we as readers flip through while reading a comic, irl. Ironically, Morrison best described this concept back in the late 80s, during his run on Animal Man...

Buddy sees the white light--the blankness beyond the comic book panels that Morrison has now defined as the 'Overvoid':
http://i.imgur.com/Z3B5eys.jpg


When Buddy asks what the light is, the Yellow Aliens respond with the following:
http://i.imgur.com/HRta8iZ.jpg
"That light represents the middle ground between our reality and the higher world out of which we are unfolded."


After entering the white light/Overvoid, Buddy and Ultraman can see us -the readers- staring back down at them:
http://i.imgur.com/r7yYNy8.jpg


The characters soon realize they are merely fictional tools in a story meant to entertain... And that we -the readers- simply watch the drama unfold:
http://i.imgur.com/fSjiFg7.jpg


And after Buddy enters the white light/Overvoid, he is able to step into the white blankness between comic book panels:
http://i.imgur.com/B4WtNN5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uMv8xie.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gE7lQTk.jpg
(This further tells us that the Overvoid is the blank canvas onto white comics are illustrated.)

____________________________________________


It's also worth pointing out that Morrison was already using the "Earth-Prime = the real world" concept back then as well. After all, finding a huge stash of comic books from Earth-Prime is what made Psycho Pirate(and a few others) realize they are just fictional characters in a fictional medium. Said comics also helped Psycho Pirate begin recreating the pre-crisis multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/B4WtNN5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dhzJd9H.jpg

Don Draper
Sorry about the delay. thx for that! big grin


one last question; where exactly do you think the 5th-d is?

Galan007
As I mentioned above: the 52 earths, Apokolips/New Genesis, Limbo, the Monitor realm of Nil, etc. etc. -- all of these comprise the multiverse in its totality.

The 5th dimension resides outside the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/XmoMvG7.jpg

IOW, it resides beyond the outermost boundary of Morrison's Map -- possibly beyond even the Overvoid.


Couple that with the info I posted above, and I believe the 5th dimension is a purely metatextual realm -- it is literally the imagination of the readers and characters made manifest. That is why it cannot be 'mapped' on a 2D plane, like the other realms/dimensions on the Map could be. It transcends all of that.

Again, this is just my opinion. smile

Zack M
Good work, Galan.

Galan007
Barry Allen references Hypertime:
http://i.imgur.com/1lteztc.jpg
-Flash #22 (2017)

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
Barry Allen references Hypertime:
http://i.imgur.com/1lteztc.jpg
-Flash #22 (2017)

droolio

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Galan007
Barry Allen references Hypertime:
http://i.imgur.com/1lteztc.jpg
-Flash #22 (2017)

Zoom is a creepy motherf*cker.

Board Walker
Why is super boy prime not mentioned as one of the super heroes of earth prime?

Galan007
^ As of Teen Titans #100, SBP is no longer on Earth Prime -- he is imprisoned on the Source Wall:
https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35488463_Teen_Titans_100_2011_digital-Empire_026.jpg


Aside from that, I don't think Morrison ever intended on having his ultimate creations(ie. Ultra & Ultra Comics) share the stage with SBP anyhow. /shrug

Galan007
From Justice League #25:

http://i.imgur.com/Ev2Oeprh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pdNSxgMh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xtFELgth.jpg






https://media.giphy.com/media/3KCOFfdqmptLi/giphy.gif

Endless Mike
Could they be referencing the Great Evil Beast?

Man I hope he comes back.

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