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so, in the wake of the good times generated by the ONE POWER thread, a BZ suggestion has morphed into.....something more. some bizzarro BZ/tourney amalgamation. basically, this is an elitist/ultra-secret/classified mini tournament thingy.

nah.....

really, it's a little friendly competition between e-friends. there are 4 contestants: me, digi, smurph and scoob. we're going to be having a little mini-tournament between ourselves (smurph and i and digi and i have had a few bz's over the last couple years, so this is just a way to get us all together in one venue, and since scoob has reappeared from the darkness, we figured we'd let him into the group too.

full on tourneys are tough for loads of reasons nowadays, so i thought 4 people would be easier to pull off and maybe the format would be catchy. here is where we'll hash out details and get things set to go.

i will be looking for judges of course and i have a few in mind i'll be pm'ing, but if you KNOW you can read some matches, and you KNOW you can get a vote in within a 7 day timeframe, feel free to toss your name into the thread and let me know. judges have been the downfall of more than one tournament and bz, so i need competent, willing judges who will absolutely NOT bail on the committment. people put too much into competing in these things to get jerked around by judges who bail, so please, we need some good, impartial judges, but we REALLY need reliable people interested in reading what will no doubt be some entertaining as sh!t matches.

digi and i figure the winner can safely declare himself king of the internet or something equally modest, can rightfully claim all of cyberspace as their domain. so, no pressure.

anyway, that's it. digi, smurph, scoob, let's have at it and have some fun.

I'm going to judge this clash of titans.

things to hash out:

(1) level--maybe amalgamate high meta/low herald? i'm open to whatever though.

(2) format? single semi-final then final, or round robin? leads to one extra match, so i'm good for whatever. if a semi final and final, how do we randomly draw?

(3) post limit? 5-7 maybe?

(4) draft or declare? i think declaring would be fine. even if we grab the same ability by some chance, the second power is extremely unlikely to be the same.

(5) banned powers? same as any tourney i figure--rules as tourney rules?

(6) are we giving OURSELVES the powers (ala one power thread), or drafting the actual characters (ala any OTHER bz/tourney style)?

(7) amalgamation format? body/mind? just any 2 powersets, complete?

i'm sure you all have some things i missed so feel free to add in anything that needs working out. shouldn't be hard to come to a consensus. we all want fun matches so that should be the priority.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
I'm going to judge this clash of titans.

you were on my pm list. thanks for be willing to follow this thing. hope its fun.

I can judge if you want.

And a strict upper cap for power level should be on place IMO.

yeah, we're not going to be busting universes. natural powers, no enhancing beyond, say, mid herald? unless the others have something different. we're not going to make this into an arms race though--that is not the intent of this. focus will be on ideas and debating--as it always should be imo.

So you want me to judge or not?

absolutely. unless you've suitably po'd any of the others you should be great as a judge. but, who can keep track with you.

Originally posted by leonidas
absolutely. unless you've suitably po'd any of the others you should be great as a judge. but, who can keep track with you.


Lol yeah, I will judge it then.

Welcome to the judges! I'll remind you only once that I remain a mod with ban-requesting privileges.

My suggestions:

(1) level--maybe amalgamate high meta/low herald?
I know more about high meta than any two other tiers combined, but I've also done a LOT of debating at that level and just did that tourney that stalled in the finals at high meta.

I wouldn't be opposed to mid herald, but with fairly restrictive rules limiting prep and power enhancing and such. I mean, have we ever actually done a mid herald tourney?

Mid meta would also be...different. But it's such a hard tier to pin down.

(2) format? single semi-final then final, or round robin? leads to one extra match, so i'm good for whatever. if a semi final and final, how do we randomly draw?

Semi-final and final. None of this round robin nonsense.

(3) post limit? 5-7 maybe?

I'm always going to vote for the lower end. So 5 is my vote.

(4) draft or declare? i think declaring would be fine. even if we grab the same ability by some chance, the second power is extremely unlikely to be the same.

Yeah, there's few enough of us that I'm alright with this. Or we could do the always-fun "PM to a third party and just announce picks in a thread, but not who has which person until all drafts are over." That format always cracked me up.

(5) banned powers? same as any tourney i figure--rules as tourney rules?

Things I suggest we ban: Speed Force, Power Copying, Duplication (Smurph! ), no autonomous constructs, time manipulation, offensive matter manipulation, and we may have to think hard about the limits of tech creation as well (cap its power at whatever the tier is maybe?)

(6) are we giving OURSELVES the powers (ala one power thread), or drafting the actual characters (ala any OTHER bz/tourney style)?

I think drafting actual characters.

(7) amalgamation format? body/mind? just any 2 powersets, complete?

To avoid confusion, I say we draft entire characters and/or entire power sets. I'm cool with 2 though.

...

But really, I'm probably ok with whatever. Give me someone to punch.

I'll judge, if its an abstract level and above fight. Yes.

Originally posted by Digi
I mean, have we ever actually done a mid herald tourney?
Redatom/Newjak's tourney was Wonder Woman cap, I think.

Also the Mid Herald battlezone belt.

Originally posted by Digi
Welcome to the judges! I'll remind you only once that I remain a mod with ban-requesting privileges.

My suggestions:

(1) level--maybe amalgamate high meta/low herald?
I know more about high meta than any two other tiers combined, but I've also done a LOT of debating at that level and just did that tourney that stalled in the finals at high meta.

I wouldn't be opposed to mid herald, but with fairly restrictive rules limiting prep and power enhancing and such. I mean, have we ever actually done a mid herald tourney?

Mid meta would also be...different. But it's such a hard tier to pin down.

(2) format? single semi-final then final, or round robin? leads to one extra match, so i'm good for whatever. if a semi final and final, how do we randomly draw?

Semi-final and final. None of this round robin nonsense.

(3) post limit? 5-7 maybe?

I'm always going to vote for the lower end. So 5 is my vote.

(4) draft or declare? i think declaring would be fine. even if we grab the same ability by some chance, the second power is extremely unlikely to be the same.

Yeah, there's few enough of us that I'm alright with this. Or we could do the always-fun "PM to a third party and just announce picks in a thread, but not who has which person until all drafts are over." That format always cracked me up.

(5) banned powers? same as any tourney i figure--rules as tourney rules?

Things I suggest we ban: Speed Force, Power Copying, Duplication (Smurph! ), no autonomous constructs, time manipulation, offensive matter manipulation, and we may have to think hard about the limits of tech creation as well (cap its power at whatever the tier is maybe?)

(6) are we giving OURSELVES the powers (ala one power thread), or drafting the actual characters (ala any OTHER bz/tourney style)?

I think drafting actual characters.

(7) amalgamation format? body/mind? just any 2 powersets, complete?

To avoid confusion, I say we draft entire characters and/or entire power sets. I'm cool with 2 though.

...

But really, I'm probably ok with whatever. Give me someone to punch.

that's all fine by me.

smurph didn't seem to raise any objections. we'll wait on scoob. you know he'll find SOMETHING to b!tch about. sneer

i think we def need to deal with the amping/tech creation as well. i'm good with saying any tech is fine so long as it doesn't exceed the low herald limit, if that's what we want to stay with. i think high meta/low herald combo works well, but if y'all want mid herald that's fine with me. scoob, smurph? thoughts?

Originally posted by leonidas
we'll wait on scoob. you know he'll find SOMETHING to b!tch about. sneer

dontgetit

If we're amalgamating characters I'd prefer to keep the original cap lower, you all know how crazy powerful even iron man level guys can get with the right blend.

that's fine by me. i don't want to make this an arm's race like i said before. i thought of amalgamating characters but the amalgamations can't lead to natural amping. no drafting a mutant then drafting cortez's powers with him as an easy example. more like abomination and quicksilver style composites if you get what i'm saying. if everyone wants low/high meta combo's i'm fine with that too. just smurph and i had talked about low herald is all. smurph, thoughts?

btw--this superbowl is sucking a$$....

Actually, I like the no amping idea, maybe too much of that in the past.

Adding, not multiplying

thumbup1

Originally posted by Digi
(5) banned powers? same as any tourney i figure--rules as tourney rules?

Things I suggest we ban: Speed Force, Power Copying, Duplication (Smurph! ), no autonomous constructs, time manipulation, offensive matter manipulation, and we may have to think hard about the limits of tech creation as well (cap its power at whatever the tier is maybe?)

awesome

Depending on the tier, we'll want to set a 'killabillity' limit too, and maybe rule out mindrape? Though I'm a personal fan of more options, not less.

Other things I'm a fan of:

-Picking a character cap instead of a tier cap. Saying 'must be equal or lesser in power than <blank>', because picking somebody that's above high meta but not the upper cap of low herald might make certain characters more viable than they have been in previous tournaments. (high meta and low herald are examples, I'd be fine with a mid/high meta blend too)

-Semi-Finals and Finals format.

-Making it really, really clear what counts as 'natural amping'. Fabian Cortez is an obvious example, but what about, say, Supergirl and the Ray?

-Amalgamations. I think making up a new character is fun.

Originally posted by Digi
Welcome to the judges! I'll remind you only once that I remain a mod with ban-requesting privileges.
pfft

Like that's gonna scare me.

Originally posted by Existere
-Amalgamations. I think making up a new character is fun.



Favorite part of tournaments.

I'll let you guys figure out tier and amping limits. I'm good with whatever.

Also fine with making an appropriate killability limit for whatever tier we pick. If it requires counting KOs as wins, I'm ok with that too. Same with telepathy. Accounting for it can be a b*tch, so if we go low enough with the tier, it may be worth banning entirely. Anything at or above high meta, though, and we should be able to plan for tp defense without having to sacrifice other strats.

No round robin seems to be the consensus. No other big objections. I'm guessing amping limits will be trickiest. They always are with amalgams.

Also, we haven't talked about prep. I'm a fan of zero prep, minus throwing up shields and passive abilities. But I'll adapt to whatever. It's just, if we were in, say, a high herald tourney, I'd want to argue for Thor, not the abstract-busting prep god I'd have to make to have a chance at winning. Same applies for others tiers.

How about - only standard or reasonably often used tech/equipment

Tired of single appearance tech popping up - like that hawkman thing that absorbs all the knowledge on the planet.

I'm also not a fan of crazy prep sh!t.

10 seconds of psyching up should be fine

ok, let's solidify some of this. how does this sound:

--we'll amalgamate 2 characters--one low herald, one high meta. high meta limit is....let's say anyone capable of (clearly) beating cap britain or namor for a majority 1on1 is over the cap. sound fair?

--a tp limit of emma sound fair?

--as for the low herald cap--anyone clearly capable of taking a majority from, hrm, this is a toughie. anyone clearly able to take a majority from....vulcan maybe, or immortal hercules should be banned? that still leaves some mid heralds as possible options imo. maybe easier to say someone like wonder woman/cap marvel should be able to take a majority against whoever you pick for your low herald guy. that sound ok? i think so long as no one blatantly goes over we should be fine. i hope? lol

--semi-final/final it is.

--tech/gear needs to be considered standard or have at least....10 appearances?

--i say 3 seconds prep--enough for shields/quick thoughts and that's it. prep to take place in an empty room.

--ko/dispersal/death )see luke skywalker vs metamorpho coughcoughbscough) are all fine for wins

--ohko? banned if considered indefensible? obviously no matter manip on opponents/time manip/speed force. what about other speedsters? say current quicksilver or makarri (who is maybe faster than light)? light speed max but no speed force?

--no natural amping--tough to call at times. how about something simple--one character simply cannot amp another, regardless (ie--you can choose ray and supergirl, but kara gets no benefit. we can allow amping if you all want (i get the creativity aspect) but it DOES allow for some crazy amps. we could also say that even the amped character must be capped--say....morg level? tobe clear: i see 2 choices--(1) neither character gets ANY benefit from the blend (seems that is scoob's choice, mine as well i think), or, (2) we allow blending, but even the amalgamated character shouldn't be able to take morg/bill for a majority. thoughts?

--no power copying.

--i like pm'ing picks to a third party like digi said but....we'd have to do it twice, arrange times for the big reveal....maybe just a thread where we declare? i'm cool if you guys want something else. just thinking of ways to get this thing moving as quickly and simply as possible.

--5 post limit ok with everyone?

--2 full characters and all abilities that go with them (ie-in the case where i chose palmer, this time i would also get his intelligence as well as his power and experience) good?

questions remaining

--what about dupes? i wouldn't want to neuter a strat like smurph had because it was smart and legit. thoughts on how to handle that?

--i also think one piece of autonomous tech might be ok (thinking of my match against phil where i used the growing man who is part of kang's standard equipment and has loads of appearances). how should we handle that? if the construct is part of 'standard' gear it's ok, if not, no dice?

anything i missed??

oh, and judges--abhi, ds and cdb are all great with me. any other names? i could hit up a couple others if you guys want 5. i have some in mind. any suggestions? and also--do we want simultaneous semi-final matches or are they better off-set?

I dont get this thread.....

you're not supposed to.

Everything sounds pretty good to me.

Also, forget what I said about PMing picks. Declaring seems fine to me.

If you guys need another judge, I'd be happy to do it.

^^what about the dupe strategy smurph used? legal?

I'm against dupes and autonomous tech/constructs, but I'll roll with whatever rules we end up with.

Also might be worth looking at the speed cap. Light speed isn't speed force, true. But it's also damn close for practical purposes. Still, again, I'll deal with whatever comes of that.

see what scoob and smurph think.

Now I actually have to form a strategy. I'm guessing Leo and probably Smurph already have ideas. Low herald is not my area, so it may require some actual digging.

nah, i got nothing. i have some combos i know would be very effective, but i was hoping for something a little more outside-the-box. we'll see. hoping we can sort out the rules in the next day or so, then we can set a date to reveal picks and get things going.

No concrete ideas so far!

I think duplicates should be illegal, as should autonomous constructs. I'm digging the idea of a simple battle of epic amalgamations.

Originally posted by leonidas
--no natural amping--tough to call at times. how about something simple--one character simply cannot amp another, regardless (ie--you can choose ray and supergirl, but kara gets no benefit. we can allow amping if you all want (i get the creativity aspect) but it DOES allow for some crazy amps. we could also say that even the amped character must be capped--say....morg level? tobe clear: i see 2 choices--(1) neither character gets ANY benefit from the blend (seems that is scoob's choice, mine as well i think), or, (2) we allow blending, but even the amalgamated character shouldn't be able to take morg/bill for a majority. thoughts?

Ok. I like the first option the most. It's clear and straightforward: power + power, not power x power.

And, so we're clear the caps are:

1) High Meta character at or below the power level of Namor, Cap Britain

2) Low Herald character at or below the power level of Immortal Herc, Professor X, rookie GL?

If we're agreed on those points, then I'll start brainstorming and hopefully we can declare soon (though I'll need a couple days for sure).

Originally posted by abhilegend
And a strict upper cap for power level should be on place IMO. where is the fun in that?


What's next, ban Id from drafting mutants?

Can we draft Manga Characters?

Originally posted by Existere
No concrete ideas so far!

I think duplicates should be illegal, as should autonomous constructs. I'm digging the idea of a simple battle of epic amalgamations.

Ok. I like the first option the most. It's clear and straightforward: power + power, not power x power.

And, so we're clear the caps are:

1) High Meta character at or below the power level of Namor, Cap Britain

2) Low Herald character at or below the power level of Immortal Herc, Professor X, rookie GL?

If we're agreed on those points, then I'll start brainstorming and hopefully we can declare soon (though I'll need a couple days for sure).

correct in all ways except prof x--i think for tourney's sake we cap tp at emma unless everyone say otherwise.

so, no autonomous constructs, no duping and power + power.

i figure we can do the declarations on....saturday or sunday. gives lots of time to get some stuff together unless anyone objects.

Originally posted by "Id"
where is the fun in that?

What's next, ban Id from drafting mutants?

Excellent suggestion. We may even be able to extend it to a forum-wide ban on mutants.

Originally posted by Digi
Excellent suggestion. We may even be able to extend it to a forum-wide ban on mutants.

total mutant irony, and Racism!

I resent that. I'm not racist. I'm species-ist.

Do we get,access to our base.

Originally posted by Digi
I resent that. I'm not racist. I'm species-ist.

Mutants aren't a species. If they were they wouldn't be able to breed with humans and create viable offspring. And they certainly couldn't produce non-mutant offspring from two mutant parents (Graydon Creed)

smartass

From my POV it'd be damn cool to see a high-meta/low-herald tourney with amalgamation in play between you guys. You are all so effin' creative with that sort of thing--it makes for a very fun read for us bystanders.

Perhaps disallow explicit mind-rape, though, because it's such a cheap tactic. Imho.

I'm actually kicking myself a bit for getting dupes banned. Some crazy combos I've thought of in just the last few hours. But in the spirit of what we're doing, it makes sense to ban them.

But I'm absolutely with Smurph on amping. Power + power. The Ray/Supergirl example Leo gave is perfect.

This really won't be as crazy as it could be, and certainly less so than many tourneys at similar power levels. But it'll be fun nonetheless.

....

Here's a quick consideration: I'm going to use Hawksmoor as an example, since I've debated with him recently. If someone drafts him, can we stipulate that the battle takes place in a city? Same with, say, Namor and being near water. Or a technopath near a city. There are a handful of characters this affects.

Originally posted by Galan007
From my POV it'd be damn cool to see a high-meta/low-herald tourney with amalgamation in play between you guys. You are all so effin' creative with that sort of thing--it makes for a very fun read for us bystanders.

Perhaps disallow explicit mind-rape, though, because it's such a cheap tactic. Imho.

No pressure or anything. haermm

Otherwise,

I'm fine with no mindrape. But passive abilities like creating illusions or hiding via mental chicanery would be allowed.

Originally posted by Digi
No pressure or anything. haermm

Otherwise,

I'm fine with no mindrape. But passive abilities like creating illusions or hiding via mental chicanery would be allowed. Yeah, passive telepathic abilities like: illusion casting, fear-induction, probability manip., mind-scanning/reading, mind-linking, etc. should be allowed. However, telepathically controlling and/or mind-phucking your opponent should be banned... One-trick pony strategies are just dull, imo.

But again, you guys are the ones competing, so it's ultimately your call(s)... I'm just selfishly telling you what I would enjoy reading.

Originally posted by Galan007
From my POV it'd be damn cool to see a high-meta/low-herald tourney with amalgamation in play between you guys. You are all so effin' creative with that sort of thing--it makes for a very fun read for us bystanders.

Perhaps disallow explicit mind-rape, though, because it's such a cheap tactic. Imho. Thanks Galan! The compliment would be more uplifting if I actually felt like I had a really good draft idea in mind...

Originally posted by Digi


This really won't be as crazy as it could be, and certainly less so than many tourneys at similar power levels. But it'll be fun nonetheless. I think it'll be fun because of that. At least, as a debater I feel that way.



Jack, if drafted, should do battle in a city- that's the only way that he's a Low Herald.

Battlefields shouldn't make characters powers either lower or higher than their drafted tier. I guess we can get creative if we run into a situation that's hard to find a fair battlefield for, but it's only 3 matches.

--------------------------------------------


How do we all feel about drafting characters from other mediums?

Originally posted by Scoobless
Mutants aren't a species. If they were they wouldn't be able to breed with humans and create viable offspring. And they certainly couldn't produce non-mutant offspring from two mutant parents (Graydon Creed)

smartass

Real life: X-men type mutants are not human.

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/12/27/are-the-x-men-human-federal-court-says-no/

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Real life: X-men type mutants are not human.

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/12/27/are-the-x-men-human-federal-court-says-no/

American legal system = puke

This is some elitist shit.

I vote for ID

God damn you lot and your pansy-ass rules.

Originally posted by Existere
Thanks Galan! The compliment would be more uplifting if I actually felt like I had a really good draft idea in mind...

ditto. lol







my only issue with this is that it makes researching someone very difficult. i've never been good at some of the other mediums (my nerd-dom only goes so far heh) sooo...i'm not a huge fan. if the others don't care that's fine, i'll figure it out. what medium were you thinking?

Originally posted by krisblaze
This is some elitist shit.

I vote for ID

so does this mean you don't wanna judge.....?

Originally posted by leonidas
so does this mean you don't wanna judge.....?
I already gave you my verdict didn't I? uhuh

In all seriousness, I'm available to judge.

did we decide on the speed cap...? digi seemed to think light speed was too fast. that's fine by me. do we want to say classic quicksilver maybe or something else?

No one else joined me on the speed thing, really. And no one's taking Makkari anyway (I think). Classic QS is actually kinda slow by speedster standards. There's gotta be some acceptable middle ground. If we make it Classic QS, we basically remove speed as a potential trump card. I'm fine with removing OHK's like mind rapes, but it'll be nice to have to account for speed and/or have it.

Other considerations:

- Dr. Doom is listed as low herald. Can we just ban him right now?

- I have a question, but it's (almost) impossible to ask without revealing the strategy. But here goes my attempt: In the Ray/Kara example, amping isn't allowed. But, for example, what if you drafted Wolverine and, say, Madison Jeffries? The adamantium would be an amp to Jeffries's powers in some sense. But would it count in the same way Ray/Kara does? A potentially similar example would be a rookie GL (btw, GL rings should be banned outright) and someone like Reed or Pym. It doesn't amp their power set, but they're able to utilize the other's weapon or material in a way that will likely exceed the tourney limits. I'm going to need a ruling here....for reasons.


I have no solution to the second problem. Just want to know where others fall.

Yeah, good question.

Did we officially decide on a no-mindrape rule too? I'm inclined to say that if we've limited telepathy to Emma level, we don't need to hinder it any further, but I don't feel strongly about the issue.

Classic quicksilver sounds too slow.

Originally posted by Digi
No one else joined me on the speed thing, really. And no one's taking Makkari anyway (I think). Classic QS is actually kinda slow by speedster standards. There's gotta be some acceptable middle ground. If we make it Classic QS, we basically remove speed as a potential trump card. I'm fine with removing OHK's like mind rapes, but it'll be nice to have to account for speed and/or have it.

Other considerations:

- Dr. Doom is listed as low herald. Can we just ban him right now?

- I have a question, but it's (almost) impossible to ask without revealing the strategy. But here goes my attempt: In the Ray/Kara example, amping isn't allowed. But, for example, what if you drafted Wolverine and, say, Madison Jeffries? The adamantium would be an amp to Jeffries's powers in some sense. But would it count in the same way Ray/Kara does? A potentially similar example would be a rookie GL (btw, GL rings should be banned outright) and someone like Reed or Pym. It doesn't amp their power set, but they're able to utilize the other's weapon or material in a way that will likely exceed the tourney limits. I'm going to need a ruling here....for reasons.


I have no solution to the second problem. Just want to know where others fall.

i think adding to a power like jefferies to logan would be all right. there are definitely some defenses against that combo any way. i also don't think the ring in reed's hands or pym's would be all that great--whatever they developed would still just be gl powerful. i agree though--a gl ring should likely be considered outside the cap. banning doom was kinda taken for granted i thought....

as far as speed then--it's hard to come up with a guy between qs and light speed. i hate neutering characters. i'm open to suggestions regarding the speed limit.

i agree with smurph about the tp cap. i think it's suitably hindered.

Originally posted by Digi

- I have a question, but it's (almost) impossible to ask without revealing the strategy. But here goes my attempt: In the Ray/Kara example, amping isn't allowed. But, for example, what if you drafted Wolverine and, say, Madison Jeffries? The adamantium would be an amp to Jeffries's powers in some sense. But would it count in the same way Ray/Kara does? A potentially similar example would be a rookie GL (btw, GL rings should be banned outright) and someone like Reed or Pym. It doesn't amp their power set, but they're able to utilize the other's weapon or material in a way that will likely exceed the tourney limits. I'm going to need a ruling here....for reasons.


I'm experiencing a similar obstacle- every character combination feels like the kind of amping that we've banned.

When Scoob combined Moonstone and Hank Pym, it combined the ability to grow + no mass (if I remember right), so he could grow beyond Pym's normal limit.

Is that amping? It's one character's power drastically increasing the effectiveness of another, which sounds like amping, but combining characters to maximize effectiveness is also the name of the game.

nuts

PROBLEMS. WE HAS THEM.

Smurph, based on earlier examples, your example about Pym sound like amping to me. I guess, ask yourself this question: could Pym grow to those heights on his own? No. But could Jeffries manipulate adamantium on his own? Yes. One enhances the power, the other just adds a tool for the power to utilize.

Make sense? That may clear up a LOT for us.

On less tricky topics, I'm trying to think of speedsters that meet our requirements. What's Northstar's limit? He may be an acceptable compromise.

Originally posted by Digi
PROBLEMS. WE HAS THEM.

Smurph, based on earlier examples, your example about Pym sound like amping to me. I guess, ask yourself this question: could Pym grow to those heights on his own? No. But could Jeffries manipulate adamantium on his own? Yes. One enhances the power, the other just adds a tool for the power to utilize.

Make sense? That may clear up a LOT for us.



I actually think I'm narrowing in on my pick. mmm I'll try and have all the scans I need by the weekend so I can start soon after we declare.

Northstar caps at lightspeed, or 99.9% lightspeed. He's always been a high meta I think, and so the original cap probably is fine.

Did we say secret or public draft?

Ban GL rings, def not low Herald.
What about magic? Limit it? Ban it?
Speed? QS level seems fine to me, look what he did in the last X-Men movie with getting anywhere near lightspeed.

Any self limiting characters, ala Cable/Gambit should be banned.

Anything else?

Originally posted by Scoobless
Ban GL rings, def not low Herald.
What about magic? Limit it? Ban it?
Speed? QS level seems fine to me, look what he did in the last X-Men movie with getting anywhere near lightspeed.

Any self limiting characters, ala Cable/Gambit should be banned.

Anything else?
QS was going faster than lightspeed in the x-men movie, wasn't he?

Or maybe not...

Originally posted by krisblaze
QS was going faster than lightspeed in the x-men movie, wasn't he?

Or maybe not...

Nah, everyone could be seen moving in very slow motion... also the bullets were still moving when he pushed them.

Not close to lightspeed, still too fast for a limited tourney though...???

Originally posted by Existere


I actually think I'm narrowing in on my pick. mmm I'll try and have all the scans I need by the weekend so I can start soon after we declare.

Northstar caps at lightspeed, or 99.9% lightspeed. He's always been a high meta I think, and so the original cap probably is fine.

the only issue is that he's high meta because he's essentially human. add any sort of extra power and almost any lightspeeder could become mid herald. i'm not sure what to cap speed at tbh. we just need to make a decision and kinda work around it however we feel we can i guess.

and are we talking strictly travel speed here? reaction/thought/combat?

i wondered about magic as well scoob....

I've not looked at a tier thread for a long time. Who represents the caps for drafting? High meta is around Namor-ish? What about Low Herald?

Originally posted by Scoobless
Did we say secret or public draft?

I think public.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Ban GL rings, def not low Herald.
What about magic? Limit it? Ban it?
Speed? QS level seems fine to me, look what he did in the last X-Men movie with getting anywhere near lightspeed.

Any self limiting characters, ala Cable/Gambit should be banned.

Anything else?

Sounds good to me. Is non-classic QS a lightspeed-er? I think if we use the eyeball test, we should be good. Probably no need to break it down to exact mph.

On magic, I think it should take care of itself. They need to be within the caps, and can't break any of the other rules concerning time or matter manipulation (or whatever else).

Originally posted by leonidas
the only issue is that he's high meta because he's essentially human. add any sort of extra power and almost any lightspeeder could become mid herald. i'm not sure what to cap speed at tbh. we just need to make a decision and kinda work around it however we feel we can i guess.

and are we talking strictly travel speed here? reaction/thought/combat?

i wondered about magic as well scoob....

I mean, even with additive and not multiplicative powers, we're still probably building mid heralds, yeah? If NS is lightspeed, I'm ok with a different cap, though. I was just brainstorming to try to find a new landing spot. QS should be good, whatever that means depending on classic or not. A lot of low heralds have good reactions too, and ridiculous flight speed. So even someone like QS isn't necessarily a game-killer.

Originally posted by Scoobless
I've not looked at a tier thread for a long time. Who represents the caps for drafting? High meta is around Namor-ish? What about Low Herald?

Yeah, Namor, Cpt. Britain, etc. Tony's newest stuff is now low herald, though, so we can't use him as a cap anymore.

For low herald, there's not really one person that makes a good cap. Just take a look for some general ideas:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577922.html

Originally posted by Digi
I think public.



Sounds good to me. Is non-classic QS a lightspeed-er? I think if we use the eyeball test, we should be good. Probably no need to break it down to exact mph.

On magic, I think it should take care of itself. They need to be within the caps, and can't break any of the other rules concerning time or matter manipulation (or whatever else).



I mean, even with additive and not multiplicative powers, we're still probably building mid heralds, yeah? If NS is lightspeed, I'm ok with a different cap, though. I was just brainstorming to try to find a new landing spot. QS should be good, whatever that means depending on classic or not. A lot of low heralds have good reactions too, and ridiculous flight speed. So even someone like QS isn't necessarily a game-killer.



Yeah, Namor, Cpt. Britain, etc. Tony's newest stuff is now low herald, though, so we can't use him as a cap anymore.

For low herald, there's not really one person that makes a good cap. Just take a look for some general ideas:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577922.html

i've always considered mags the top of the low herald. if your guy can beat mags for a majority you've probably drafted too high...

so....are we allowing light speed then....?

Magneto is a solid choice for the absolute top of the tier.

We're dwelling on speed a ton. Clearly it's a hot-button issue. There will be an arms race for speed if we allow lightspeed. We're all "ok" with whatever, but it may be worth it to find something new. Modern QS is a time manipulator, so he's out. But wasn't there a period between Classic and the time BS where he was considerably faster? Maybe there's a compromise with him?

If that doesn't work, I'm happy to be done with it, and pick either lightspeed or classic QS. Which doesn't matter to me; flip a coin.

...

Also did some preliminary scouting. Removing the need to create a massive amp is...liberating. I may end up regretting some of my considerations, but it's opened up some possibilities in my drafting for characters that are powerful but don't necessarily lend themselves well to power mesh amps.

Still a lot of the same considerations as other tourneys, of course, but it may allow me to open up the playbook a bit, so to speak. Or be lazy and pick people I've debated with before. One of those.

Originally posted by leonidas
the only issue is that he's high meta because he's essentially human. add any sort of extra power and almost any lightspeeder could become mid herald.
If they're tank-ish, that tends to be true- but a lot of Low Herald energy manipulators can turn into energy, and move at lightspeed. There's also Heralds at low herald, whose travel speed is considerably faster than lightspeed.

It doesn't really make a difference to me though.

If we want a lower cap than Northstar, we could look at Exiles Mimic who is 50% lightspeed? Modern Quicksilver is also ridiculously fast, but I don't have any sort of actual figure.

Smurph makes a point about the fliers and those who turn into energy. I'm ok with whatever.

I just think current QS is bannable for other reasons, bc iirc correctly his powers still stem from time travel, not actual speed. Any version of him that's just a speedster should be fine. As would Mimic. And, at this point, as would Northstar, though anything near lightspeed makes it something we'll need to account for (which I'm ok with).

In the tier, Jay Garrick is another speedster of note.

What about his cap sans Speedforce?

i think jay has hit light speed though. i meant to raise the issue previously, but smurph reminded me. someone like monica rambeau can turn to light. i don't see why she shouldn't be allowed. does that mean we SHOULD allow light speed? my thought is the same as digi--don't want everyone trying to claim a speedster just in case someone else does. it is a conundrum. i think we have everything else we need. stupid speedsters, always muck things up. lol

Without the SpeedForce? IIRC he couldn't. But, speed of sound would be a good power still, right?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/10369/1232688-jay.jpg

ahh....without you said. lol i should read more closely--i stopped at jay. i was thinking about mach speed, but it's hard to gauge. and what about about someone like monica...?

Originally posted by leonidas
ahh....without you said. lol i should read more closely--i stopped at jay. i was thinking about mach speed, but it's hard to gauge. and what about about someone like monica...?

Travel speed and combat speed are completely separate discussions.

Someone like Monica can actually travel faster than light, but her combat reflexes (punching speed) are still base human.

Speed Demon, old QS, etc could only run around 1,000mph, but could punch hundreds of times in a couple of seconds.

I don't think anyone cares too much about the travel speed cap.

Speed of sound would suck balls with what we're about to do. A mild advantage against some, probably, but nothing more.

So I think here are our options:
1) Set a lower cap, and neuter picks like Monica
2) Set a lower cap, and disallow picks like Monica
3) Set the cap at lightspeed and be done with it
4) Ignore travel speed, focus on speedster reflexes (like Scoob's post above)

And the cap options are:
1) Lightspeed (Northstar, others)
2) 50% lightspeed (Mimic, others?)
3) Isotope E QS (~Mach 10)
4) Classic Jay (~Mach 1)

I'd probably vote for one of the middle two caps. Given characters like Monica, I don't feel pushed into a corner if it's set at lightspeed (even given the difference between travel and reactions), so as ever, it's not a huge issue for me either way.

...

Also, aside from this, we need to start making a list of other stuff that's been decided upon.

After the last mini tourney, let's ban indefinite self bfr

i think light speed travel is fine--thor can go multiples of light.... but that was what i was getting at. i don't want a blitz at light speed before i can react. if it can happen i want to be the one blitzing! lol

i think we're best leaving monica out, unless you want to say she has to enter the battlefield as human. that would give at least a chance to defend against a blitz. shields also would help. but being able to withstand 10 000 light speed punches might be a problem at this level....monica can't really do that though so the more i think on it, she should be fine...

i know the focus on speed has been annoying--it's just at this level speed really can be THE game-changer so let'd decide then make a list like digi said. this was never intended to be something that we were supposed to agonize over.

after a little more thought--is there a way we can just decide an attack has to be 'defensible' while leaving the cap open? i mean MOST blitzes can be shielded or defended anyway, right?

I guess.

Funny thing will be that either no-one drafts a speedster, or the game is won by the only one not to draft a speedster.

Originally posted by leonidas
this was never intended to be something that we were supposed to agonize over.

...said every tourney host ever.



It's been painless outside speed, so I think we're doing fine.

I'll cosign the above posts. We should be close now.

So is this a four way BZ between you guys or 1vs1 brackets with three matches total?

just one random semi-final then a final. 2 match max. just for sh!ts and giggles.

You mean for dominion over the interwebs!!!

I have lots of good combos but no great ones yet. Probably because I'm used to massive amps. Still, lots of good choices.

I also have one that passes my test earlier, where it's a material for the power to use, not an amp to the power itself. Like the Jeffries //Wolverine example, but better.. But it likely pushes the amalgam lots mmhigher than any reasonable cap. So I'm unsure about it. Is there a cap on total power? It'll be hard without amping anyway, but it's good to know all rules.

i think i mentioned somewhere that in terms of sheer power, wonder woman would be a good upper level, maybe gladiator-ish...? i mean a significant mid-herald if you can work it out.

Ok. Lemme go through everything and form a list. Then we'll tweak it as needed and finalize it in a day or so.

Moving along, are we going to declare one at a time, two at a time, or is there lingering support for a blind draft?

What about a snake draft? We set an order randomly, and maybe the first round is the meta pick. Then we go in reverse order for heralds. Or first come, first served?

I want Digi to draft Luke Skywalker, infuse him with Flash-level speed, and proceed to chop you all in half with a ftl lightsaber blitz. Essentially, by the time you knew the saber was green, you'd already be flayed into a steaming pile of loss.

Nothing against anyone else, but how effing cool would that be..? kinda

About that^^^

We're doing comic characters only, right?

i think that's probably easiest.

How do you feel about a scans limit?

We don't need a hundred images to implement a strategy, only relevant scans, don't need every ability shown.

Maybe limit to 10 or less per post

hmm, i guess i'm open to that. never had to use one before. usually more proof=better argument, but whatever the others want is fine by me.

I think we can gauge scans on our own. I try not to scan-dump in my posts, but I'd rather not set a limit.

I'm ok with comic characters only, even though I DID heavily consider Luke.

I've been busier than expected, so I don't have the list yet. Maybe tonight or definitely tomorrow.

How close are you guys to your final ideas?

I've had a list of half a dozen or so at both levels for several days now. I just haven't had the time to really dig in and see which will work best together. As we discussed over PMs, lots of threads are worthless now in the respect forum, so unless I'm really lazy (and I might be), it will require a fair amount of research.

So...maybe Monday or Tuesday I'll have my final plan, though certainly not all my scans together.

Alright, correct me where I'm wrong:

Format: Semi-final and finals. Three matches total.

Power Level & Format: 2-character amalgam. One at or below high meta (upper limit examples: Namor, Cpt. Britain) plus one at or below low herald (upper limit example: Magneto)

Total Power Cap After Amalgamation: Mid Herald (upper limit example: ??)

Post Limit: 5

Self or Characters: We're drafting the characters, not granting ourselves the powers. So CIS is presumably on the table.

Amping Rules: Disallowed. Materials that aid a power (i.e. Jeffries/adamantium) are allowed. Power amping is not (i.e. The Ray + Kara)

Tech Creation & Non-Autonomous Constructs/Summons: Low Herald limit

Prep: 3 seconds in an empty room

TP: Emma limit. Mind-rape and/or mind control is specifically disallowed, but other telepathic powers (confusion, illusions, fear inducing, probability manip., mind-reading for strategic advantage, etc.) are permissible.

Speed: Up to but not including lightspeed is permissible.

Specifically Banned Characters/Items: Doom, GL Rings

Banned Powers: Speed Force, Time Manip., Duplication, Power Copying, Autonomous Constructs (tech or magic), Offensive Matter Manip.

Notes:
- Dispersal/KO/etc. counts as a win.
- Comic characters only. No other mediums.

Judges (so far): Abhi, DS, CDB, Kris


TO BE DETERMINED...

Draft Format: Declare, secret, snake, or other?

Powers: Memory Retention (from semis to finals?)

Killiability: Do we need an explicit limit, or is it covered under Dispersal/KO?

No to memory retention. The character you hope to win with should be the same character you start with.

KO, death, dispersal, basically anything that ends the fight for a significant period should count as a win

Secret drafts are more fun, but we'd need a willing 3rd party

Originally posted by Scoobless
No to memory retention. The character you hope to win with should be the same character you start with.

KO, death, dispersal, basically anything that ends the fight for a significant period should count as a win

Secret drafts are more fun, but we'd need a willing 3rd party



No objections to any of that. And I'm sure we can find a willing 3rd party. Any takers...?

Considering I wasn't invited to the party, I can do drafting and thread opening as needed.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Considering I wasn't invited to the party, I can do drafting and thread opening as needed.



Don't blame us, Blair. Blame leo.

313

But thanks. That will be a huge help.

Bumping this, with updates:

....

Format: Semi-final and finals. Three matches total.

Power Level & Format: 2-character amalgam. One at or below high meta (upper limit examples: Namor, Cpt. Britain) plus one at or below low herald (upper limit example: Magneto)

Total Power Cap After Amalgamation: Mid Herald (upper limit example: ??)

Post Limit: 5

Self or Characters: We're drafting the characters, not granting ourselves the powers. So CIS is presumably on the table.

Amping Rules: Disallowed. Materials that aid a power (i.e. Jeffries/adamantium) are allowed. Power amping is not (i.e. The Ray + Kara)

Tech Creation & Non-Autonomous Constructs/Summons: Low Herald limit

Prep: 3 seconds in an empty room

TP: Emma limit. Mind-rape and/or mind control is specifically disallowed, but other telepathic powers (confusion, illusions, fear inducing, probability manip., mind-reading for strategic advantage, etc.) are permissible.

Speed: Up to but not including lightspeed is permissible.

Specifically Banned Characters/Items: Doom, GL Rings

Banned Powers: Speed Force, Time Manip., Duplication, Power Copying, Autonomous Constructs (tech or magic), Offensive Matter Manip., Memory Retention

Notes:
- Dispersal/KO/etc. counts as a win. As will anything that will end the fight for a significant period of time.
- Comic characters only. No other mediums.

Judges (so far): Abhi, DS, CDB, Kris

Draft Format: Secret draft, PM'd to Blair.


TO BE DETERMINED...

Killiability: Do we need an explicit limit, or is it covered under Dispersal/KO?

Drafting:
- Date on which we'll PM our picks.
- Do we PM low herald, high meta, or both picks at once?
- What happens if two of us pick the same character(s)?

On the last, I'd suggest whoever puts their pick in first gets first rights to the character. I'm also ok with PMing both at once...I can't imagine there will be too much overlap in our picks.

Originally posted by Digi


Don't blame us, Blair. Blame leo.

313

But thanks. That will be a huge help.

if you ever voted for me maybe i'd invite you. sneer

more honestly--bw you haven't competed in an event in ages. never entered my mind you'd want in. if the mini format works though, we can easily do others.

re: rules--i think everything looks good. i think cap marvel/ww level should be a pretty good amalgam limit. somewhere in there any way. really though, i think so long as no one is making someone who can trounce thor or superman we should be all right.

as far as killability--any type of incapacitation so long as it's for a fair length of time, should count. we can argue that in match i guess and judges can decide for themselves.

i think we should pm both picks. i was willing to just open a thread, have us all there, and put down our picks. if we all want to pm that works for me as well though. when the picks have been made known, we can all discuss any issues we might have with the picks, work them out, allow a repick if we all decide it's necessary and go from there.

as for 2 people with the same pick--i'm actually fine with it if it happens. no way we'll have both the same. maybe leave it up to the drafters if one of them WANTS to switch for someone else?

the only other thing to decide will be who goes against whom in the semis. is there some sort of random generator we can use or something. or we could just do alphabetical, or in order of who joined first or something else equally (more) creative.....

PMing both picks it is. And yeah, sure, if we end up with one similar character, we can deal with it on a per-case basis. A small shame, though. I was hoping for the possibility of being able to snipe one of you with a selection ( )

And No need to get too crazy with match assignments. Any objection to me plugging us into an online RNG? I don't care which of you fools I face first, so there will be no match rigging. Here's a good site if we want a 3rd party to do it:
http://www.printyourbrackets.com/tournament-random-matchup-generator.html

Ok, so I plugged our names in alphabetically, and beforehand decided that each slot would represent #'s 1-4, with #1 playing #4, and 2-v-3.

Here's what it came up with:

Existere (#1)
Digi (#2)
Leonidas (#3)
Scoobless (#4)

So Smurph will face Scoob and I'll face Leo.

I suppose until all four of us sign off, these technically aren't "final," but can be discussed. With that caveat...

Final Rules

Format: Semi-final and finals. Three matches total.

Power Level & Format: 2-character amalgam. One at or below high meta (upper limit examples: Namor, Cpt. Britain) plus one at or below low herald (upper limit example: Magneto)

Total Power Cap After Amalgamation: Mid Herald (upper limit example: Cpt. Marvel, WW)

Post Limit: 5

Self or Characters: We're drafting the characters, not granting ourselves the powers. So CIS is on the table.

Amping Rules: Disallowed. Materials that aid a power (i.e. Jeffries/adamantium) are allowed. Power amping is not (i.e. The Ray + Kara)

Tech Creation & Non-Autonomous Constructs/Summons: Low Herald limit

Prep: 3 seconds in an empty room

TP: Emma limit. Mind-rape and/or mind control is specifically disallowed, but other telepathic powers (confusion, illusions, fear inducing, probability manip., mind-reading for strategic advantage, etc.) are permissible.

Speed: Up to but not including lightspeed is permissible.

Specifically Banned Characters/Items: Doom, GL Rings

Banned Powers: Speed Force, Time Manip., Duplication, Power Copying, Autonomous Constructs (tech or magic), Offensive Matter Manip., Memory Retention

Judges (so far): Abhi, DS, CDB, Kris

Draft Format:
- Secret draft, PM'd to Blair.
- We're sending both of our picks to him at one time.
- Duplicate picks by two participants are acceptable.

Notes:
- Dispersal/KO/etc. counts as a win. As will anything that will end the fight for a significant period of time.
- Comic characters only. No other mediums.

...

In the event that two us of pick the same person, maybe Blair could inform the involved parties via PM, so that we're not airing ALL picks before possibly allowing someone to switch a pick. So, for example, if Scoob and I both draft Iron Man, we'll be informed of it and allowed to switch if we want. But we won't know anyone else's picks before being allowed to switch.

that's all good for me.

Only contention: Leo and I agreed a couple pages ago that setting Emma as the TP cap, without outlawing mindrape, was hindering enough for telepathy.

We could still outlaw mindrape if Scoob and Digi feel differently though.

I'm ok with that. It probably wouldn't be my vote, but we have to plan for/against TP anyway, since there's still a ton that can be done besides overt mind control.

In other news, I'm making progress on my draft search. It's been a while since I've done this much research - even the title belt BZs were with characters I had previously researched and had extensive collections of - but it's not a huge imposition on my time. The hardest part will be choosing between similarly useful picks. Without amps, it becomes more of a rock/paper/scissors game for me, instead of trying to mesh into the most raw power via an amp.

Originally posted by Digi
In the event that two us of pick the same person, maybe Blair could inform the involved parties via PM, so that we're not airing ALL picks before possibly allowing someone to switch a pick. So, for example, if Scoob and I both draft Iron Man, we'll be informed of it and allowed to switch if we want. But we won't know anyone else's picks before being allowed to switch.

Ok, but if both still want Iron Man, are we accepting two, or more, of us to draft the same character?

I can accept that, as long as we don't draft both of the same characters.

i'm good with that. i'm fine with tp as well. up to you guys.

I think we're good to go. I don't want to set a strict deadline unless it's needed, but let's all try to get our picks to Blair sometime in the next 3-7 days.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Ok, but if both still want Iron Man, are we accepting two, or more, of us to draft the same character?

I can accept that, as long as we don't draft both of the same characters.

Yeah, makes sense. I think the odds of us drafting the same two as someone else are so slim that we don't need to actually make a rule for it. If it happens, we'll laugh and figure it out then.

cool. i'll try and round up one more judge.

So.... Do we want BW to post drafts as who picked who? Or as 4 LH and 4 HM and not give us full amalgam info until the matches are posted?

i'm good either way.

Originally posted by Scoobless
So.... Do we want BW to post drafts as who picked who? Or as 4 LH and 4 HM and not give us full amalgam info until the matches are posted?

The latter is more fun, but also potentially more work for us. I suppose it depends on how hard you want to work on counter-research.

Are you all in the same timezone?

I'm posting this about 12:05pm my time, so what's the time difference between us?

(that's lunch time, not midnight... so many people mix up 12am/pm)

Originally posted by Digi
The latter is more fun, but also potentially more work for us. I suppose it depends on how hard you want to work on counter-research.

If the characters are supposed to enter without prep, it makes sense that we shouldn't know.

Of course when Minion and Spiral show up I will be astonished with astonishingly astonishing surprise.

It's 11:10 right now eastern standard time for me. I think Smurph and I have the same time zone, Digi may be middle US or Eastern Standard time as well. Not sure about Leo

Originally posted by Scoobless
Are you all in the same timezone?

I'm posting this about 12:05pm my time, so what's the time difference between us?

(that's lunch time, not midnight... so many people mix up 12am/pm)

If the characters are supposed to enter without prep, it makes sense that we shouldn't know.

Of course when Minion and Spiral show up I will be astonished with astonishingly astonishing surprise.



11 hour difference here. Your 12:05PM is my 11:05 PM. So yeah, we all seem to be the same (except perhaps leo).

For the record, Leo has used Minion in the exact same number of tourneys as I have (one). BUT...blind it is, then. I suppose it will force us to make our writeups a bit more generalized, instead of specifically against a couple characters.

Blair's following things, but once we're done hashing things out, I'll send him a PM as well with draft rules, just to be safe.

And we can have a few days to b1tch about why X is LH and not HM.

Originally posted by Digi
Blair's following things, but once we're done hashing things out, I'll send him a PM as well with draft rules, just to be safe.



Originally posted by leonidas
more honestly--bw you haven't competed in an event in ages. never entered my mind you'd want in. if the mini format works though, we can easily do others.


sneer

It's not my fault most tournaments haven't actually gone past drafting day.

Blair's right, but there's been a bunch of us doing one-off BZ's for the title belts over the last couple years. Which is in line with the mini-tourney stuff, which seems to be how you have to do it these days.

All of the people I normally PM with to strategize are competing. I'm going to have to grab drinks with Newjak irl soon. Getting a second perspective always helps.

Originally posted by Digi
I'm going to have to grab drinks with Newjak irl soon. Getting a second perspective always helps.

Outside help. DQ!!!

Question:

Do weaknesses stack or cancel?

eg. Superman + Hyperion

Superman would get wrecked by Kryptonite
Hyperion would get wrecked by Argonite

But Hyperion is immune to Kryptonite and Superman is immune to Argonite... So does he have both weaknesses or neither?

I guess I'm asking if we can use all of one character's strengths and ignore their weaknesses, even if those weaknesses are directly related to the strengths.

eg (again) Ultron + a plastic coke bottle Vs Magneto

Can I use all of Ultron's power, including Adamantium based durability, but claim defence against magnetism because the coke bottle is immune?

::::::::::::::::::::

You guys need to stop sleeping when I'm awake or I'm gonna spam the **** out of this thread

mad

lol just move closer and you won't have to worry about it!

i'm in windsor. EST. so yeah, once again, scoob is the square peg. sneer




hmm, my initial thought here is that he would have both weaknesses. i think it's possible to amalgamate in ways that you can cancel a weakness. eg--superman+radiation man. radiations man's control would prevent k-nite from harming supes. (that amalgamation may/may not be legal under our natural amp rules though.....)

what about naturally opposing character amalgams? eg--could you take sodom yat (who is highly vulnerable to lead) and meld him with lead, from the metal men? would that cancel the weakness or would the amalgam be dead before you started??

The Ultron example makes me want to say you wouldn't be able to ignore the weakness. In that scenario, if you're enjoying the benefits of the adamantium durability, there isn't much way I could see you ignoring the vulnerability to magnetism.

The Superman/Hyperion example is trickier at face value. I'm not sure I have a clear answer, unless there's a situation like Leo outlined where the others' power actively cancels the weakness.

Originally posted by leonidas
so yeah, once again, scoob is the square peg. sneer


Does that make you guys a bunch of round holes?

lookaround

Originally posted by Digi
The Ultron example makes me want to say you wouldn't be able to ignore the weakness. In that scenario, if you're enjoying the benefits of the adamantium durability, there isn't much way I could see you ignoring the vulnerability to magnetism.

The Superman/Hyperion example is trickier at face value. I'm not sure I have a clear answer, unless there's a situation like Leo outlined where the others' power actively cancels the weakness.

So, let's decide something, either:

1. Weaknesses stack
2. Weaknesses are ignored if the second character has a specific defence against it - as per Superman + Radioactive Man
3. Weaknesses are completely ignored if second draft doesn't share the same weakness - Superman + Captain America
4. Weaknesses only apply if you argue the benefits that come with the weakness - as per Ultron + plastic bottle
5. Something else...

i like number 2 (heh) or 3. either is fine by me unless someone has something else to add.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
It's 11:10 right now eastern standard time for me. I think Smurph and I have the same time zone, Digi may be middle US or Eastern Standard time as well. Not sure about Leo Originally posted by leonidas
lol just move closer and you won't have to worry about it!

i'm in windsor. EST. so yeah, once again, scoob is the square peg. sneer



I'm in Calgary, so two hours behind you guys.

I don't wanna figure out the difference between me and Scoob. It's a bunch. I plan on winning our match by keeping him up at all hours of the night waiting for my response. KO via fatigue!


Weaknesses: I think options 2 and 4 aren't mutually exclusive. Basically, if you intend on reaping the benefits of a particular character trait (adamantium body, kryptonian physiology), then you should suffer the weaknesses that come with that (magnetism, kryptonite), unless you also have a power to counteract that (energy manipulation, radiation manipulation).

Past that, it should just be the judges call, I think.

This whole event is becoming more of a mental game/exercise in figuring out amalgamation possibilities than it is in actually deciding on one to use in a battlezone.

And I've got the same problem as Digi- the people that I would normally bounce ideas off of are competing or judging this thing.

B-Dub, are you an actual judge for this match? It would help to have a host give me some rule interpretations to determine just how illegal all my ideas are.

i think if you want to use bw as someone to bounce ideas off of that would be fine--ie get an opinion on someone who you may think flirts with the cap, etc. any final decisions on character choices can be made between the 4 of us though. maybe if we need some sort of 'final ruling' on something, bw can be that guy? sort of the pseudo-host/overseer? i've put out a couple pm's for judges. if no one can do it, bw can vote in the event of a tie maybe? if we're bouncing ideas off him though, maybe not the best idea to have him judge. no offense bw.

Originally posted by Existere
This whole event is becoming more of a mental game/exercise in figuring out amalgamation possibilities than it is in actually deciding on one to use in a battlezone.

it wasn't supposed to be a difficult thing.....

on the plus side, once we get it all worked out, anything similar in the future will be easy to pull off. i think we can all agree to perhaps some leniency when it comes to some rules. i'm usually NOT for that type of idea, but this is intended to be for fun and to get in some good debating. if everyone is overly worried about things, we're doing it wrong. really, unless something egregious is being pulled, i'll be fine with whatever you guys come up with.

Originally posted by Existere
It would help to have a host give me some rule interpretations to determine just how illegal all my ideas are.

We know you. They are probably all 95% illegal.



Seriously, just draft within the limits, don't try to squeeze characters in from higher caps, we all have the same limits.

----------

I do have a question about the "no amping" rule though:

1. Would my previous tourney combo of Sasquatch+Hank Pym be admissible? Sasquatch's strength would multiply like Pym, just starting at a higher level.

Or

2. The strength/power can't rise above the strongest single drafts strength/power?

I've been looking at drafts based on the second idea, don't wanna walk into a match and realise I was playing with a different rulebook

well, i think if we bear in mind the idea that the amalgam has to remain in the mid-herald range that should help sort out your question. nowadays pym/sasquatch would def be illegal given pym's feats. i think if you went with someone like sasquatch/giganta that might be ok though. i get that sas is benefiting from giganta's size powers, but you're really still just adding the combo. not sure how the others would see it though.

Originally posted by Scoobless
1. Weaknesses stack
2. Weaknesses are ignored if the second character has a specific defense against it - as per Superman + Radioactive Man
3. Weaknesses are completely ignored if second draft doesn't share the same weakness - Superman + Captain America


I think 2 is the only one that works. Otherwise, no one will have any weaknesses unless you draft characters with the same weakness (ie: two Kryptonians).

Originally posted by Existere
B-Dub, are you an actual judge for this match? It would help to have a host give me some rule interpretations to determine just how illegal all my ideas are.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think if you want to use bw as someone to bounce ideas off of that would be fine--ie get an opinion on someone who you may think flirts with the cap, etc. any final decisions on character choices can be made between the 4 of us though. maybe if we need some sort of 'final ruling' on something, bw can be that guy? sort of the pseudo-host/overseer? i've put out a couple pm's for judges. if no one can do it, bw can vote in the event of a tie maybe? if we're bouncing ideas off him though, maybe not the best idea to have him judge. no offense bw.

I'm willing to act as psuedo host and tie breaker judge. I don't really want to be a first line judge though.

As far as rulings/illegal picks, you four have been organizing most of the rules and such yourselves. I can help with general ideas if anyone wants them, but this seems to be Leo's show.


Originally posted by leonidas
it wasn't supposed to be a difficult thing.....


Make it quick and dirty guys. None of the four of you are known for really stepping over the line in tournaments (or relying on loopholes), so I don't think you really have anything to worry about.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think if you want to use bw as someone to bounce ideas off of that would be fine--ie get an opinion on someone who you may think flirts with the cap, etc. any final decisions on character choices can be made between the 4 of us though. maybe if we need some sort of 'final ruling' on something, bw can be that guy? sort of the pseudo-host/overseer? i've put out a couple pm's for judges. if no one can do it, bw can vote in the event of a tie maybe? if we're bouncing ideas off him though, maybe not the best idea to have him judge. no offense bw. I don't want to bounce ideas off him, I was just hoping there was a judge that could directly address my draft question. I can talk to Charlotte if that would be more appropriate, or I can wait to get your opinions post-draft. Originally posted by Scoobless
We know you. They are probably all 95% illegal.



Seriously, just draft within the limits, don't try to squeeze characters in from higher caps, we all have the same limits.

Yup, not my problem. I'm confident all my character ideas are firmly within the limits.

Typing on my phone now, I'll try and address my question to you guys when I grab my laptop.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Make it quick and dirty guys. None of the four of you are known for really stepping over the line in tournaments (or relying on loopholes), so I don't think you really have anything to worry about.

Originally posted by Existere
And I've got the same problem as Digi- the people that I would normally bounce ideas off of are competing or judging this thing.


Originally posted by Existere
I don't want to bounce ideas off him

ermm


Originally posted by leonidas
well, i think if we bear in mind the idea that the amalgam has to remain in the mid-herald range that should help sort out your question. nowadays pym/sasquatch would def be illegal given pym's feats. i think if you went with someone like sasquatch/giganta that might be ok though. i get that sas is benefiting from giganta's size powers, but you're really still just adding the combo. not sure how the others would see it though.

There are going to benefits to adding two people together no matter what, right? Just don't cross over the line where one amps the other to such a degree that you're effectively creating the best version of that one character (ie: Superman + Dr. Light or something similar).

Yeah, we're overthinking at this point. #2 works for weaknesses, as others have mentioned. Otherwise, it should be up to us to prove things in matches. Obviously the powers will mesh in certain ways, but we all know an amp when we see one.

Let's make some picks and get this shindig going. I should have mine in by Tuesday.

And yeah, I'm not likely going over any limits. There's actually an outside chance I draft two high metas.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
ermm

Well, I do have the same problem as Digi- I don't have any of my go-to posters to bounce ideas off of, including yourself.

With nobody to approach for an informal opinion, I was hoping I could get a formal rule interpretation from a judge to help me pare down my options.

Anyways, like Digi said, I'm overthinking at this point. I feel ready to draft.

I don't think any of the judges actually know what's going on though. Seems like they are all waiting for you guys to decide the rules and they'll just enforce them.

Originally posted by Blair Wind


I don't think any of the judges actually know what's going on though. Seems like they are all waiting for you guys to decide the rules and they'll just enforce them. Yeah, totally.

It's just, without a judge to give rulings, we're left to fumble around trying to describe our problem in vague terms without giving our ideas away for like... 8 pages. ermmnone

Anyways, I've narrowed things down to two options. Gonna deliberate for a day and then flip a coin, probably.

I'm excited though!

i thought i had someone (i'd always considered the character low herald) but now i'm less sure about where he/she would fit. i've been soliciting opinions and they vary. been searching matches and again, the results aren't helping. the line is very blurry from low to mid in a few cases.... i was really excited about this character too. hrm. maybe i'll throw it out there and just have a back-up if you guys feel the character breaks the cap rule.

All this talk of illegality... Apparently I'm in some trouble. Maybe I should find someone besides Spider-Man and Minion. Not that they couldn't punk you turkeys, but I want my victory to beccertain.

well, after a couple more opinions, i feel safer in my pick again. i'm actually pretty excited with my amalgam. i'll take a couple more days to let it marinate, but i'm like, 90% sure who i'm taking.

just to let everyone know, nj has agreed to be our 5th judge. thanks man.

Originally posted by Digi
All this talk of illegality... Apparently I'm in some trouble. Maybe I should find someone besides Spider-Man and Minion. Not that they couldn't punk you turkeys, but I want my victory to beccertain.

Meh, my picks are firmly within the caps, and they don't amp each other.

Hope everyone else is in similar situations

Originally posted by Scoobless
Meh, my picks are firmly within the caps, and they don't amp each other.

Hope everyone else is in similar situations

Same here, though I'm still not sure which combo I'm going to go with.

I usually have an "aha" moment with tourneys before or during drafts. All the way back to my first, when I had the General Zod + Apollo amping idea while I was lying in bed before one of the rounds of drafts (which in retrospect was incredibly mundane, but at the time represented a TON of creativity for me, given how little I knew of anything that was going on). Even the recent one-power thing that Blair ran, Jack was sort of a lightbulb going on, as I realized that he could likely hang with anyone being chosen. Other examples abound: Scoob and I with Space Phantom + soul link shenanigans, Minion Prime, etc.

Granted, they're not always good ideas. But they always give me some clarity with my strategy.

Nothing like that so far with this. Just some characters I'd love to screw around with. They may have to be enough. And, given the format, might be enough to pull a win.

Unrelated thought: You know where this format might work well? Trans tier.

Stay with me. Instead of making everything minimalistic, just allow anything. Time manip? Fine. Offensive matter manip? Fine. It circumvents messy rules by going the opposite direction.

No prep, of course. At least that would have to remain austere, or it would get out of control. But just imagine a non-amalgamated Validus and Dr. Fate vs. Thanos and Onimar Synn. Or, hell, amalgamated. Seems pretty epic to me.