The Avengers or The Justice League ?

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Supermex
Who wins?
No Prep..
Dcnu..




Who has the easier time dealing with Darkseid? I think overall the JLA may have a easier time dealing with Darky due to overall power. The Avenger team here was not built to match the JLA in power.

In this fight B.F.R is allowed. Which might make this alittle more balanced. The Avengers in this fight, So does Darkseid take both teams down or due both teams win? Which team beats Darkseid in easier fashion. The physical, the brawn, the smarts, the tactical ? What wins out? Who wins out?



The Avengers in (New York)

Cls.Cap.America
Cls.Thor
Iron Man
Hulk
Captain Marvel
Spider-Man
Scarlet Witch


Vs


Darkseid



A portal opens over the Hudson River where Darkseid invades the planet Earth. The invasion of Earth by a powerful villain, Darkseid brings the formation of Earths mighty superheroes to counter the invasion and protect there home planet. The Mighty Avengers includes Cap.America(Steve Rogers), The Mighty Thor, The Incredible Hulk, Captain Marvel, Spider-Man, The Invincible Iron Man and The Scarlet Witch.


Can this lineup of Avengers defeat Darkseid in battle?


....................


The Justice League in (Metropolis)

Batman
Superman
G.L Hal
Wonder Woman
M.Manhunter
Flash
Aquaman


Vs


Darkseid



A portal opens over the River in Metropolis, enters Darkseid invading the planet Earth. The invasion of Earth by a powerful villain, Darkseid brings the formation of Earths mighty superheroes to counter the invasion and protect there home planet. The Justice League includes Batman, Superman, G.L Hal, Wonder Woman, M.Manhunter, Flash and Aquaman.


Can this lineup of the Justice League defeat Darksied in battle?





Everyone is in standard form. No upgraded forms.

carver9
The Avengers does better due to Scarlet Witch and Thor.

relentless1
JLA

Sin I AM
Jla. They've dealt with the threat. The have more exp points

riv6672
Not a huge factor in this case.
Carver9s Witch/Thor assessment is pretty much spot on.

Sin I AM
Since when is experience not important? DS wont be easy to either team. But the JLAknow how to deal with him as the avengers won't

riv6672
How did you get "experience not important" from "not a huge factor in this case"?

Nevermind, i stand by my answer.

Supermex
Would the Avengers be able to B.F.R Darkseid if need be?

riv6672
IMO yes.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by riv6672
How did you get "experience not important" from "not a huge factor in this case"?

Nevermind, i stand by my answer.

That's a contradictory statement. You stated not a huge factor which translates to not important which it is. Standing by carvers assessment or not he's still wrong. that avengers team is significantly less than the jla present. Plus the have in depth knowledge of the villain as opposed to basic knowledge which isnt much in Darkseids case

Originally posted by Supermex
Would the Avengers be able to B.F.R Darkseid if need be?

No they would not

Scoobless
Originally posted by Supermex
Darky

Racist

no expression

Reflassshh
Originally posted by carver9
The Avengers does better due to Scarlet Witch and Thor. Why?

Henry_Pym
Hex Haxx?

Mjoinir is a solid counter for the beams.

Reflassshh
Proof of SW's powers being effective against a Trans/Skyfather being?

Current Thor doesn't have mjolnir. Classic Thor would engage Darksy physically, maybe throw the hammer a few times and use the lighting. Just see his fights with Thanos, that won't be enough. erm

Henry_Pym
Thor is physically tough enough to fight DS for a time...

Not sure your other point though, does being in the Trans tier just come with blanket protection?

carver9
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Why?

Everyone gets basic knowledge of each other. Darkseid Omega's can't get basic enough. The Avengers will know this and they have the tools to stop his BIGGEST weapon along with the physical force to match him. Wanda can turn his Omegas to daisies or Thor could absorb it while the others play their part. Hell, Ironman could probably absorb them as well and redirect it. The Omega's is his trump card and it can easily be hindered.

The JLA doesn't have this luxury. As shown, the Lantern is useless against Darkseid. He stood there and tanked everything Hal threw at him. Hell, what physical force hasn't ripped through Hal constructs. Superman has already been dropped by the Omega's. Wonder Woman is the trump card since she can block them and she has powerful weapons but how long can she last against Darkseid? Really. Aquaman is useless...

The only reason they were able to accomplish what they did was due to preparation and they were still losing and had to bfr him, and they struggled to do that. That's all Thor has to do is call down lightning to bfr Darkseid. Just that simple. The Avengers holds every advantage at winning this tbh. They have an absorber, they have someone who control probability, they have one of the strongest beings on their planet, a tech master who has weapons that rip trans tiers head off, etc, etc...

The league only has physical force and we seen the outcome of that.

carver9
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Proof of SW's powers being effective against a Trans/Skyfather being?

Current Thor doesn't have mjolnir. Classic Thor would engage Darksy physically, maybe throw the hammer a few times and use the lighting. Just see his fights with Thanos, that won't be enough. erm

no expression

Wanda was recently ripping reality to shreds. She has the power.

Reflassshh
Ok, IOW the avengers will be fighting intelligently as a team while the JLA will be fighting like retards on his own, engaging Darksy one on one and even forgetting about the OB? laughing out loud

And lol @ basic knowledge meaning that they will know how powerful or dangerous the OB is.

Reflassshh
Originally posted by carver9
no expression

Wanda was recently ripping reality to shreds. She has the power. Was she? I honestly don't know about that. You've got some scans bro?

Reflassshh
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Thor is physically tough enough to fight DS for a time...

Not sure your other point though, does being in the Trans tier just come with blanket protection? Is Thor tougher than Superman iyo?

Let's make it simplier. Who's the most powerful being that she affected with her powers?

carver9
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Ok, IOW the avengers will be fighting intelligently as a team while the JLA will be fighting like retards on his own, engaging Darksy one on one and even forgetting about the OB? laughing out loud

And lol @ basic knowledge meaning that they will know how powerful or dangerous the OB is.

Never said they'll be fighting dumb, my entire post was focused around the JLA not having a counter against the Omega's. They don't.

Supermex
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Ok, IOW the avengers will be fighting intelligently as a team while the JLA will be fighting like retards on his own, engaging Darksy one on one and even forgetting about the OB? laughing out loud

And lol @ basic knowledge meaning that they will know how powerful or dangerous the OB is.




Carver never said the JLA was going to fight Darksy like a bunch of Retards.

Can you give a way the JLA will fight Darksy?

carver9
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Was she? I honestly don't know about that. You've got some scans bro?

Here you go.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/20418298/Avengers__X-Men_-_Axis_001-018.jpg.html

Supermex
Captain Marvel can absorb to I believe

abhilegend
Darkseid just destroyed a universe casually. None of the teams are beating him at that level.

carver9
no expression

abhilegend
What?

DarkSaint85
Only Constantine can save them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Constantine%202013-%20022-019_zpsw5sd0944.jpg

carver9
I will read the entire comic.

riv6672
Originally posted by abhilegend
Darkseid just destroyed a universe casually. None of the teams are beating him at that level.
He's right.


It translates that way in YOUR mind.
In a no prep battle the JLAs prior knowledge isnt a huge factor because they cant use it to come up with a better way to beat DS than brute force and standard gear.
It is important, because they wont have to waste precious time guaging his power level.
Not a huge factor. Not important. Two different things.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by riv6672
He's right.


It translates that way in YOUR mind.
In a no prep battle the JLAs prior knowledge isnt a huge factor because they cant use it to come up with a better way to beat DS than brute force and standard gear.
It is important, because they wont have to waste precious time guaging his power level.
Not a huge factor. Not important. Two different things.

You're grasping and backtracking. Who said prep? They know who darkseid is know how to fight him and how to effectively handle him as a team. Plus neither you or carver seem to understand basic knowledge vs how expertise benefits in a team fight. Or even what basic knowledge even entails. Wanda is not enough she will not transform his OB to daisies either as someone ridiculously said earlier. Thor will go h2h, get smacked, toss a bolt, get smacked, and has a 50% chance of either trying to tank a OB with his body or blocking it with mjolnir. The rest are fodder which is y u two are weighing so heavily on thor n the witch.

Jla has WAYYYY better odds.

carver9
Originally posted by Sin I AM
You're grasping and backtracking. Who said prep? They know who darkseid is know how to fight him and how to effectively handle him as a team. Plus neither you or carver seem to understand basic knowledge vs how expertise benefits in a team fight. Or even what basic knowledge even entails. Wanda is not enough she will not transform his OB to daisies either as someone ridiculously said earlier. Thor will go h2h, get smacked, toss a bolt, get smacked, and has a 50% chance of either trying to tank a OB with his body or blocking it with mjolnir. The rest are fodder which is y u two are weighing so heavily on thor n the witch.

Jla has WAYYYY better odds.

Did we see the same fight? Darkseid fought the JLA once and it was hardly a fight. He treated then like peasants and walked off. Then they attacked him again and this is where they put a tactic together and stabbed his eyes out. Moral, Darkseid didn't give them all of his attention. Don't understand why you think experience has anything to do with this battle. The Darkseid and JLA fight took place some yrs back, Darkseid didn't give it his all. They didn't even defeat him properly, they had to bfr him. So what type of experience are you talking about? It's not like Darkseid doesn't change his fighting tactics, huh? Hell, can someone show me what his tactic was during that fight. He used his Omegas once, an OMNI attack once. Did he even throw a punch? Can't remember offhand. With that said, I don't see a thing wrong with what Riv and myself said.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by carver9
Did we see the same fight? Darkseid fought the JLA once and it was hardly a fight. He treated then like peasants and walked off. Then they attacked him again and this is where they put a tactic together and stabbed his eyes out. Moral, Darkseid didn't give them all of his attention. Don't understand why you think experience has anything to do with this battle. The Darkseid and JLA fight took place some yrs back, Darkseid didn't give it his all. They didn't even defeat him properly, they had to bfr him. So what type of experience are you talking about? It's not like Darkseid doesn't change his fighting tactics, huh? Hell, can someone show me what his tactic was during that fight. He used his Omegas once, an OMNI attack once. Did he even throw a punch? Can't remember offhand. With that said, I don't see a thing wrong with what Riv and myself said.

What are you talking about? Experience in any fight is important PERIOD. The JLA know who they are fighting. They know of his strength class. Know that he will ragdoll them if not careful. The AVENGERS DO NOT. Thor will try to "test his mettle" and get owned and I'm a THORBAG. Hulk will fall the same way. That leaves scarlet witch ALONE to fight Darkseid. EVERY OTHER AVENGER PRESENT IS FODDER. You and riv agreeing on something that's wrong doesn't sway me in the least. Especially when u say dumb shit like Wanda will turn his OB to daisies...next thing someone will post that she says no more new gods and one shots him. Gtfoh

Branlor Swift
I don't know what the argument is but I'm inclined to agree with anyone going against Carver/10

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I don't know what the argument is but I'm inclined to agree with anyone going against Carver/10

He's saying that in this scenario Thor and Scarlet Witch are enough to give the Avengers the edge over the JLA (despite having a lackluster team)

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Sin I AM
He's saying that in this scenario Thor and Scarlet Witch are enough to give the Avengers the edge over the JLA (despite having a lackluster team) What you have to realize here is that you're dealing with some real low down scum. Like not even the mold or mildew in its end stages. I'm talking about the initial bacteria that creates an outbreak of black mold. Only he doesn't just spread in one starting area. He gets up and spreads it around everywhere.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What you have to realize here is that you're dealing with some real low down scum. Like not even the mold or mildew in its end stages. I'm talking about the initial bacteria that creates an outbreak of black mold. Only he doesn't just spread in one starting area. He gets up and spreads it around everywhere.

smile thumb up and apparently he's infected riv

carver9
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What you have to realize here is that you're dealing with some real low down scum. Like not even the mold or mildew in its end stages. I'm talking about the initial bacteria that creates an outbreak of black mold. Only he doesn't just spread in one starting area. He gets up and spreads it around everywhere.

laughing out loud

Da**. This is saved.

riv6672
Sin, the only disconnect here is your inability to comprehend english.
I'm not spending 12 more posts explaining the difference between not a huge factor and not important while you pretend to lnow what i mean.

Avengers have the better odds here, thanks to having more viable BFR options than the JLA.

relentless1
you also have to figure that the JLA that fought DS isn't the same JLA we have here, Martian manhunter is a huge factor in a JLA victory here, his telepathy and phasing will give the team a good boost. And while Wanda is a powerhouse you put way too much stock into Thors abilities against a guy like Darkseid, he'd get half smacked, the only one on the Avaengers team that could pose any kind of threat to Darkseid would be Wanda and even then I don't think she's going to be able to do much to him he's on another level.

PS whats BFR?

Henry_Pym
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Is Thor tougher than Superman iyo?

Let's make it simplier. Who's the most powerful being that she affected with her powers? between 52 vs Thor's last run before depowerment.

Yeah I'd put that Thor at the top of the tier in full scope, obviously there are other guys who are better in areas though.
----
Reality?

Sin I AM
Originally posted by riv6672
Sin, the only disconnect here is your inability to comprehend english.
I'm not spending 12 more posts explaining the difference between not a huge factor and not important while you pretend to lnow what i mean.

Avengers have the better odds here, thanks to having more viable BFR options than the JLA.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by relentless1
you also have to figure that the JLA that fought DS isn't the same JLA we have here, Martian manhunter is a huge factor in a JLA victory here, his telepathy and phasing will give the team a good boost. And while Wanda is a powerhouse you put way too much stock into Thors abilities against a guy like Darkseid, he'd get half smacked, the only one on the Avaengers team that could pose any kind of threat to Darkseid would be Wanda and even then I don't think she's going to be able to do much to him he's on another level.

PS whats BFR?

Battlefield removal. Like throwing Darkseid into the sun, teleporting him from the area battle which isn't even viable here so i have no idea y it's being brought up

Golgo13
BFR won't work.

riv6672
I dunno, i got sin to agree that the Avengers'd win this due to better BFR ability. He conceded and eveything. smile

Supermex
Just wondering

Why would B.F.R work?

Golgo13
Avengers BFR Darkseid? Not when he has access to Boom Tubes.

DarkSaint85
Yeah, and I'm always the one who argues for BFR...

And as for Witch, have we forgotten what MODOK did to her??

riv6672
Originally posted by Supermex
Just wondering

Why would B.F.R work?
In regards to this and Golgo's boom tube comment, i'd say it depends how inventive the Avengers get with BFRing DS.
In any case, temp fix or not, its an option this Avengers line up has that the JLA line up doesnt.
That gives the Avengers the edge IMO.

relentless1
^ tell me again how the avengers have that option exactly? its not even known if Scarlet Witchs magic will even work on Darkseid and anyone else on the team is amusingly outmatched

Supermex
Originally posted by riv6672
In regards to this and Golgo's boom tube comment, i'd say it depends how inventive the Avengers get with BFRing DS.
In any case, temp fix or not, its an option this Avengers line up has that the JLA line up doesnt.
That gives the Avengers the edge IMO.



Aquamans school of tuna attack is possible here.

Reflassshh
Originally posted by Supermex
Carver never said the JLA was going to fight Darksy like a bunch of Retards.

Can you give a way the JLA will fight Darksy? Originally posted by carver9
Never said they'll be fighting dumb, my entire post was focused around the JLA not having a counter against the Omega's. They don't. The JLA will go for the eyes as soon as the battle starts. The avengers won't, it's as simple as that.

Reflassshh
Originally posted by carver9
Here you go.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/20418298/Avengers__X-Men_-_Axis_001-018.jpg.html So this translates into Wanda 'turning the OBs into daisies'??? confused

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Reflassshh
So this translates into Wandar 'turning the OBs into daisies'??? confused

Well it's a good thing Darkseid has no telepathy....oh wait.

Reflassshh
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well it's a good thing Darkseid has no telepathy....oh wait. She'd turn his tp into sunflowers.

Sin I AM
I love how Darkseid is being lowballed

Golgo13
People need to read the Constantine/ Darkseid confrontation. He's not getting BFR.

ODG
So what I'm getting from this thread is that the Justice League get to fight the Darkseid from Justice League #1-6 while the Avengers get to fight the Darkseid from Constantine #22.

. . . . .

http://31.media.tumblr.com/3309ca76db9e344f7394f5bfcd2a4181/tumblr_mguqd450oD1rzapx4o1_500.gif

psycho gundam
Probably the greatest "get DC guys over" move in forum history

riv6672
Originally posted by relentless1
^ tell me again how the avengers have that option exactly? its not even known if Scarlet Witchs magic will even work on Darkseid and anyone else on the team is amusingly outmatched
Why should i when your stance consists of something as blatantly biased as a power set not working on the character you favor, and saying the rest of the team is outmatched like its anymore than an opinion? Get real. roll eyes (sarcastic) laughing out loud

relentless1
lemme put it to you like this kid; Avengers < JLA < Darkseid. Thats not an opinion thats a fact

riv6672
Originally posted by relentless1
lemme put it to you like this kid; Avengers < JLA < Darkseid. Thats not an opinion thats a fact

Ha, alright Kanye. roll eyes (sarcastic)

"Imma let you pick a winner but, the JLA has the best line up of all time."

Even though this JLA line up doesnt have the better BFR options. Riiight.

Bentley
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, and I'm always the one who argues for BFR...

And as for Witch, have we forgotten what MODOK did to her??

I... Actually did. What did M.O.D.O.K. do?

carver9
Originally posted by Reflassshh
So this translates into Wanda 'turning the OBs into daisies'??? confused

Reread our post. When did I say that THAT was the reason she would turn Darkseid beams into daisies?

Reflassshh
Originally posted by carver9
Reread our post. When did I say that THAT was the reason she would turn Darkseid beams into daisies? Then what's the reason? confused

Anyway I want to know if we're still using Darkseid avatar here, because if it's the Darksy recently shown, he would mudstomp these teams at the same time.

carver9
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Proof of SW's powers being effective against a Trans/Skyfather being?

Current Thor doesn't have mjolnir. Classic Thor would engage Darksy physically, maybe throw the hammer a few times and use the lighting. Just see his fights with Thanos, that won't be enough. erm

This is your post, I then replied telling you what Wanda did. That ft should close this argument.

Reflassshh
Originally posted by carver9
This is your post, I then replied telling you what Wanda did. That ft should close this argument. Pre-boot Superman sealed reality with his HV. I guess Clark can beat skyfathers with it thumb up

carver9
Originally posted by Reflassshh
Pre-boot Superman sealed reality with his HV. I guess Clark can beat skyfathers with it thumb up

So sealing and warping reality are the same thing? Especially when we are talking about someone who can do THIS.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461826/VS-Zone-007.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461828/VS-Zone-008.jpg.html

She also assisted in taking out the Phoenix Force when the entirety of the earth hero was unable to beat him.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461524/Avengers_VS-Zone-016.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461528/Avengers_VS-Zone-018.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461531/Avengers_VS-Zone-019.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461535/Avengers_VS-Zone-020.jpg.html

She beats Phoenix empowered Namor.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12687225_AVX-Zone-_016.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12687226_AVX-Zone-_017.jpg

And he did this beforehand....

carver9
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687141_AVX-Zone-_007.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687142_AVX-Zone-_008.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687143_AVX-Zone-_009.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687144_AVX-Zone-_010.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687145_AVX-Zone-_011.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687146_AVX-Zone-_012.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687147_AVX-Zone-_013.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12687148_AVX-Zone-_015.jpg

You can deny her fts a you want but her power is clear imo.

carver9
Forgot to post this. Wanda also bests Magik who had the force.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12643579/AvX-Zone-_004.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12643581/AvX-Zone-_006.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12643580/AvX-Zone-_007.jpg.html

Withstand the Force and handles Phoenix Namor with ease.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12643598/AvX-Zone-_017.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12643599/AvX-Zone-_018.jpg.html

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
So sealing and warping reality are the same thing? Especially when we are talking about someone who can do THIS.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461826/VS-Zone-007.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461828/VS-Zone-008.jpg.html

She also assisted in taking out the Phoenix Force when the entirety of the earth hero was unable to beat him.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461524/Avengers_VS-Zone-016.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461528/Avengers_VS-Zone-018.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461531/Avengers_VS-Zone-019.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461535/Avengers_VS-Zone-020.jpg.html

She beats Phoenix empowered Namor.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12687225_AVX-Zone-_016.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12687226_AVX-Zone-_017.jpg

And he did this beforehand....

Those feats in your first two scans are nothing.

As for the assist, great. So did Cap and Wolverine.

As for your Namor scans, they're rubbish. She gets knocked out. BP specifically says it took ALL of them. Not just Wanda.

Great feats thumb up

Your scan also shows how susceptible she is to telepathy. Darkseid was communicating with Constantine across universes.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Those feats in your first two scans are nothing.

As for the assist, great. So did Cap and Wolverine.

As for your Namor scans, they're rubbish. She gets knocked out. BP specifically says it took ALL of them. Not just Wanda.

Great feats thumb up

Your scan also shows how susceptible she is to telepathy. Darkseid was communicating with Constantine across universes.


Her almost wrecking Earth (with the aid of Hope who had her powers as well)? I think it's beastly.

So Cao and Wolverine assisted like Wanda did against the Phoenix? Niiiice.

Never said she didn't get knocked out. She is taking on a Phoenix user. Lol...they were getting worked, look at the scans. Wanda beat him but they did assist. As a punching bag. That's like me using the Parademons as a downplay of Darkseid fighting the JLA, since they were there ya know. Assisting him.

I think you also forgot she has a team here. Should I post what Thor and Hulk has done?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Her almost wrecking Earth (with the aid of Hope who had her powers as well)? I think it's beastly.

Almost. Darkseid, when younger, destroyed a planet, on panel. But of course, you lowball the hell out of that feat...so just be consistent, OK?


Have you got proof they didn't?



Neither of the teams are defeating Darkseid. You use the latest versions of characters, right? What happens when Darkseid takes control of Wanda? Basic knowledge and all that - and everyone knows how powerful Wanda is. Hulk? Thor? TP control. AMONGST other tactics - I know you will focus ONLY on the TP, and start using it as if Darkseid ONLY has TP - I am merely saying it is but ONE of his many powers.

Remember, the first time the JLA 'defeated' him, they Boomtubed him away and a Motherboxed Cyborg stopped his control. Here, IF they try to BFR him (like Wanda 'handling' Namor with ease, lol, with a BFR) he can just boom back.

BOTH DC and Marvel lose here.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Almost. Darkseid, when younger, destroyed a planet, on panel. But of course, you lowball the hell out of that feat...so just be consistent, OK?


Have you got proof they didn't?



Neither of the teams are defeating Darkseid. You use the latest versions of characters, right? What happens when Darkseid takes control of Wanda? Basic knowledge and all that - and everyone knows how powerful Wanda is. Hulk? Thor? TP control. AMONGST other tactics - I know you will focus ONLY on the TP, and start using it as if Darkseid ONLY has TP - I am merely saying it is but ONE of his many powers.

Remember, the first time the JLA 'defeated' him, they Boomtubed him away and a Motherboxed Cyborg stopped his control. Here, IF they try to BFR him (like Wanda 'handling' Namor with ease, lol, with a BFR) he can just boom back.

BOTH DC and Marvel lose here.

Never said Darkseid destroying a planet was not impressive. People said he physically did it when we honestly don't know (we see Omega's though) since it was done off panel.

Yeah I have proof...Wanda and hope koing him and Wolverine and Cap shield before hand being ineffective.

TP could work. Who knows since both Thor and Hulk also have some amazing TP resistant fts (but they have subdued to it as well).

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Bentley
I... Actually did. What did M.O.D.O.K. do?

He was giving her trouble, so much so that she admitted she couldn't take him on her own:

http://s7.postimg.org/y9h9rlbkr/image.jpg
http://imageshack.com/f/545/avx03n.jpg

I usually wouldn't read too much into it, but MODOK??? He's second only to Kang in loserville.

As for her later showings...well, human-level Hope managed to sucker punch her. Darkseid in his first showings with the JLA, was keeping up with the Flash - and very nearly OB'd him.

What Carver neglected to post:

http://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/hope-summers-vs-scarlet-witch-3.jpg
http://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/hope-summers-vs-scarlet-witch-4.jpg

She's powerful, but a glass cannon.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He was giving her trouble, so much so that she admitted she couldn't take him on her own:

http://s7.postimg.org/y9h9rlbkr/image.jpg
http://imageshack.com/f/545/avx03n.jpg

I usually wouldn't read too much into it, but MODOK??? He's second only to Kang in loserville.

As for her later showings...well, human-level Hope managed to sucker punch her. Darkseid in his first showings with the JLA, was keeping up with the Flash - and very nearly OB'd him.

What Carver neglected to post:

http://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/hope-summers-vs-scarlet-witch-3.jpg
http://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/hope-summers-vs-scarlet-witch-4.jpg

She's powerful, but a glass cannon.

Sneak attack and she was amped off of Scarlets probability powers. Also, MODOK had help. Lots of it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Sneak attack and she was amped off of Scarlets probability powers. Also, MODOK had help. Lots of it.

Heh, too predictable. I knew you were going to use the 'sneak attack' excuse.

Do you think someone like you (i.e. a human level person) can sneak attack someone like the Flash?

If no (I'm assuming you'd say no), then that's that. Because the OB were moving ALMOST as fast as Barry (to the extent he actually had to catch his breath from running away from it):

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/2292454-2.jpg

Not to mention, of course, Superman was unable to outrun his:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/2292455-3.jpg

So, if someone can be snuck attack by a human, that means they are roughly comparable in reflex speeds - i.e., human level. The OB is Flash/Superman level in travelling speed.

As for being amped off Scarlet's powers...you forget that SCARLET was also there. So it's a bit of an idiotic statement, lol. What, Hope was making it more probable that she could hit Wanda, whereas Wanda's powers....weren't? Even better, it shows Wanda needs to consciously think about her powers.

What help did MODOK have?

Existere
Wanda's showings are all over the place. Yeah, she had trouble with MODOK, but she also KO'd entire teams of Avengers and X-Men with a wave of her hand in Children's Crusade.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Existere
Wanda's showings are all over the place. Yeah, she had trouble with MODOK, but she also KO'd entire teams of Avengers and X-Men with a wave of her hand in Children's Crusade.

Agreed thumb up. She's a glass cannon, IMO. And I put it down to writers not knowing how to use her properly.

With that said, clinging to her altering reality (whilst mindcontrolled; the very example of a glass cannon) and some of the showings in AvX as an average, is not the way to go. Especially if it leads to 'turning the OB into daisies'.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Heh, too predictable. I knew you were going to use the 'sneak attack' excuse.

Do you think someone like you (i.e. a human level person) can sneak attack someone like the Flash?

If no (I'm assuming you'd say no), then that's that. Because the OB were moving ALMOST as fast as Barry (to the extent he actually had to catch his breath from running away from it):

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/2292454-2.jpg

Not to mention, of course, Superman was unable to outrun his:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/2292455-3.jpg

So, if someone can be snuck attack by a human, that means they are roughly comparable in reflex speeds - i.e., human level. The OB is Flash/Superman level in travelling speed.

As for being amped off Scarlet's powers...you forget that SCARLET was also there. So it's a bit of an idiotic statement, lol. What, Hope was making it more probable that she could hit Wanda, whereas Wanda's powers....weren't? Even better, it shows Wanda needs to consciously think about her powers.

What help did MODOK have?

Lol but we have Batman being able to counter said Omega's and I would love for you to prove that his speed was enhanced during the time he did it. Remember, I'm using your line of debating (Proxima rods). There are other times where his Omegas been dodged as well.

A sneak attack is a sneak attack. She snuck Wanda. That will not happen here since Wanda is staring right at her opponent. Also, Superman damaged damaged before the Omega's hit him unless you forgot about the scene where Flash lifts a near koed Superman off of the ground and ran with him.

If Scarlet wasn't expecting an attack, why prepare for it? Your argument doesn't make sense.

This is what happens when she is prepared.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461816/VS-Zone-002.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461817/VS-Zone-003.jpg.html

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Lol but we have Batman being able to counter said Omega's and I would love for you to prove that his speed was enhanced during the time he did it. Remember, I'm using your line of debating (Proxima rods). There are other times where his Omegas been dodged as well.

In the DCnU? Or are you allowing ALL of Darkseid's feats? That opens up the Great Darkness Saga, when he effortlessly mind controlled 3 billion Daxamites across the galaxy. But of course, that's not the latest versions of the characters, right?



Considering you thought Aquaman's stabbing of Darkseid was fan art, and thought that Cyborg didn't use his white noise cannon in the comics, you are hardly one to talk about reminders.

In any case,

http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/22178/justice-league-5-02.jpg
http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/22178/justice-league-5-03.jpg
http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/22178/justice-league-5-04.jpg

You can see that Superman was up, and ready for a fight ('I'm up. But not to talk'). The OBs were still so fast, Barry was the one who had to pull him up - but he was hardly helpless. The OBs are JUST THAT FAST.


It doesn't make sense, because you are a bit slow. Do you think someone like, say, Batman can sucker punch Flash? Say they are just chatting, like friends. Flash doesn't know Batman is going to punch him. Do you think he can punch Flash?

Of course he can't. For all of his training, he is just a human level athlete. Flash is a lightspeeder. Batman CAN, however, sucker punch human level characters (Hal Jordan, for example). How does this tie in with my argument?

Wanda is human level in her reaction speed. Whether she was expecting it or not, she is human level. IF she was faster than a human, than all the suckering in the world wouldn't work on her. You could TRY and catch her by surprise, but if she had faster reflexes than you, you'd fail.

The OBs are Flash level (whilst slower, they aren't THAT much slower - Flash had to for the first time in his life, catch his breath). Even if Wanda is staring at them, it wouldn't help her one bit.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
This is what happens when she is prepared.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461816/VS-Zone-002.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13461817/VS-Zone-003.jpg.html

Ok.

Darkseid allows the Avengers time to prepare, whilst he uses his OBs on the weakest members of the Avengers first. Despite there being prior knowledge (so knowing what Scarlet Witch/Thor/Hulk etc can do) he instead will focus all his energies on fighting Spiderman and Cap first. Once Wanda is ready for him, then he will oblige, and fight them on their terms thumb up

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85


In the DCnU? Or are you allowing ALL of Darkseid's feats? That opens up the Great Darkness Saga, when he effortlessly mind controlled 3 billion Daxamites across the galaxy. But of course, that's not the latest versions of the characters, right?



Considering you thought Aquaman's stabbing of Darkseid was fan art, and thought that Cyborg didn't use his white noise cannon in the comics, you are hardly one to talk about reminders.

In any case,

http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/22178/justice-league-5-02.jpg
http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/22178/justice-league-5-03.jpg
http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/22178/justice-league-5-04.jpg

You can see that Superman was up, and ready for a fight ('I'm up. But not to talk'). The OBs were still so fast, Barry was the one who had to pull him up - but he was hardly helpless. The OBs are JUST THAT FAST.


It doesn't make sense, because you are a bit slow. Do you think someone like, say, Batman can sucker punch Flash? Say they are just chatting, like friends. Flash doesn't know Batman is going to punch him. Do you think he can punch Flash?

Of course he can't. For all of his training, he is just a human level athlete. Flash is a lightspeeder. Batman CAN, however, sucker punch human level characters (Hal Jordan, for example). How does this tie in with my argument?

Wanda is human level in her reaction speed. Whether she was expecting it or not, she is human level. IF she was faster than a human, than all the suckering in the world wouldn't work on her. You could TRY and catch her by surprise, but if she had faster reflexes than you, you'd fail.

The OBs are Flash level (whilst slower, they aren't THAT much slower - Flash had to for the first time in his life, catch his breath). Even if Wanda is staring at them, it wouldn't help her one bit.

I guess you didn't see Batman's recent fight against Darkseid. Gotcha.

And we still see Superman damaged on the ground. He wasn't ok. The Omega's is inconsistent (using your argument here) and has been blocked.

So if Batman had flash powers would he be able to sucker punch a Flash that isn't paying attention? Yes, he could.

Wanda probabilities powers are active during the onset of the battle. Start from there. Even though I disagree with her reactions etc being human level.

Lol...Flash didn't even know how to use the force during those instances. Good luck on guessing how fast he was going during that scene. I say he is going Mach 3. Prove me wrong.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok.

Darkseid allows the Avengers time to prepare, whilst he uses his OBs on the weakest members of the Avengers first. Despite there being prior knowledge (so knowing what Scarlet Witch/Thor/Hulk etc can do) he instead will focus all his energies on fighting Spiderman and Cap first. Once Wanda is ready for him, then he will oblige, and fight them on their terms thumb up

Her abilities are thought based. Darkseid attack isn't covering the distance that fast. Sorry.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by carver9
Her abilities are thought based. Darkseid attack isn't covering the distance that fast. Sorry.

Roger dodger?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=608492&pagenumber=7#post15076902

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
I guess you didn't see Batman's recent fight against Darkseid. Gotcha.
Oh, in the Hellbat armour, which granted him unknown abilities and powers? Gotcha.


Sure he wasn't - even though we see him flying just fine away from them. I didn't know the Avengers had Hellbat armours on. What inconsistency?


thumb up We agree. So they have to be on the same level. Wanda's speed was on the same level as Hope; i.e., human level.


She can turn them on and off? And I'm sure her powers were still active when Hope headbutted her - she still needs to consciously affect them. Think of it like Zatanna. Her powers are always active - but if she doesn't know what to affect with her powers, it's useless.


Mach 3 is fine. It's still faster than Wanda (although Flash was pretty fast by then; remember how he toyed with Superman earlier?) IOW, Flash is miles above Wanda in terms of reflex speeds - and he was still barely able to outrun them.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Her abilities are thought based. Darkseid attack isn't covering the distance that fast. Sorry.

But Hope's fist can?
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/hope-summers-vs-scarlet-witch-4.jpg

How about her headbutt?

http://www.abload.de/img/vs-zone-005t4cx9.jpg

DarkSaint85
Btw, glad you brought up the point about Barry not knowing how to use the Speed Force.

Here, he's contributing to the Hellbat armour, USING the Speed Force. Does it make Batman faster? I leave you, dear carver, to decide:

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff516/Henchman4Hire/HellbatArmor01.jpg

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Oh, in the Hellbat armour, which granted him unknown abilities and powers? Gotcha.


Sure he wasn't - even though we see him flying just fine away from them. I didn't know the Avengers had Hellbat armours on. What inconsistency?


thumb up We agree. So they have to be on the same level. Wanda's speed was on the same level as Hope; i.e., human level.


She can turn them on and off? And I'm sure her powers were still active when Hope headbutted her - she still needs to consciously affect them. Think of it like Zatanna. Her powers are always active - but if she doesn't know what to affect with her powers, it's useless.


Mach 3 is fine. It's still faster than Wanda (although Flash was pretty fast by then; remember how he toyed with Superman earlier?) IOW, Flash is miles above Wanda in terms of reflex speeds - and he was still barely able to outrun them.

Lol...so we are granting Batman abilities he has not shown? Gotcha. Even though Parademons and Kalabak sint have any issues tagging him? Is this version of Batman faster than thought?

He still was hurt moments beforehand.

The same level as the speed of thought.

Yes she can turn them on and off. Look at the scan above. Her eyes are normal, she brings up her probability powers. Her eyes glow and that's when it is in effect.

It isn't covering the distance before Wanda activates her powers. Sorry.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...so we are granting Batman abilities he has not shown? Gotcha. Even though Parademons and Kalabak sint have any issues tagging him? Is this version of Batman faster than thought?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Btw, glad you brought up the point about Barry not knowing how to use the Speed Force.

Here, he's contributing to the Hellbat armour, USING the Speed Force. Does it make Batman faster? I leave you, dear carver, to decide:

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff516/Henchman4Hire/HellbatArmor01.jpg




Lol, or when Darkseid activates his powers. What inconsistencies in speed have you got for the OB? I have shown at least that Barry added his Speed Force powers to the armour.

Ultimately, you are merely grasping at straws here. Neither team is beating Darkseid.

Sin I AM
The premise is whod do better not whod beat him. Neither team would win but jl have better odds

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85







Lol, or when Darkseid activates his powers. What inconsistencies in speed have you got for the OB? I have shown at least that Barry added his Speed Force powers to the armour.

Ultimately, you are merely grasping at straws here. Neither team is beating Darkseid.

One inconcistency. Darkseid was able to get off some words even though Darkseid shot the Omega's and it still didn't hit Batman and he had enough time to raise his hand and stop the attack.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/21501263/Batman_and_Robin_037-012.jpg.html

Is he somehow faster than Superman?

Mr. Miracle was temporarily able to outpace them and Darkseid wad able to talk while the beams were out and before they ruched Miracle. Miracle was able to fly in between the spears before being touched.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/21501320/Earth_2_-_Worlds_End_2014-_011-005.jpg.html

Darkseid voice is either FTL or his Omegas isn't as fast as you are making them out to be.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
One inconcistency. Darkseid was able to get off some words even though Darkseid shot the Omega's and it still didn't hit Batman and he had enough time to raise his hand and stop the attack.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/21501263/Batman_and_Robin_037-012.jpg.html

Is he somehow faster than Superman?

Mr. Miracle was temporarily able to outpace them and Darkseid wad able to talk while the beams were out and before they ruched Miracle. Miracle was able to fly in between the spears before being touched.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/21501320/Earth_2_-_Worlds_End_2014-_011-005.jpg.html

Darkseid voice is either FTL or his Omegas isn't as fast as you are making them out to be.

Speedforce imbued armour:
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff516/Henchman4Hire/HellbatArmor01.jpg

Not to mention, READ your own bloody scan, lol. Darkseid says:

'They were ATTRACTED to the chaos shard like a magnet'.

They were NEVER going to hit Bats, lol. They were attracted to the shard.

Mr Miracle....the greatest escape artist.....escaped them.....

Yeah, that's kinda his power...
confused

PLUS, attracted once more, to the Boom spheres.

Not to mention, that's the Omega Effect, not Omega Beams.

Jeez you're terrible at this.

Reflassshh
thumb up

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Speedforce imbued armour:
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff516/Henchman4Hire/HellbatArmor01.jpg

Not to mention, READ your own bloody scan, lol. Darkseid says:

'They were ATTRACTED to the chaos shard like a magnet'.

They were NEVER going to hit Bats, lol. They were attracted to the shard.

Mr Miracle....the greatest escape artist.....escaped them.....

Yeah, that's kinda his power...
confused

PLUS, attracted once more, to the Boom spheres.

Not to mention, that's the Omega Effect, not Omega Beams.

Jeez you're terrible at this.

Makes sense...thats why Batman lifted his arm in the air, because the beams wasn't going to hit him. Great.

Mr. Miracle still outpaced them before they hit him.

So the speed of his blasts are different. Prove it.

-Pr-
The Omega Beams/Omega Effect go as fast as Darkseid wants them to.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Makes sense...thats why Batman lifted his arm in the air, because the beams wasn't going to hit him. Great.

Mr. Miracle still outpaced them before they hit him.

So the speed of his blasts are different. Prove it.

So Darkseid's words mean nothing now? Note how the Effect races UPWARDS, TOWARDS the shard. Had he not lifted his arm, they would have still been attracted to it. He lifted his arm because the artist wanted to draw a cool pose, that's all. Jeez.

Mr Miracle had the Boom spheres between him and the OE - unless you think the spheres are gigantic??? Look at the first image. Once the OE got within range of the spheres, they were bounced around all three. The art is so clear. You can even see Miracle looking over his shoulder as the spheres trap the OE.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by -Pr-
The Omega Beams/Omega Effect go as fast as Darkseid wants them to.

This...

Getting off topic though

Branlor Swift
Did Carver post the Wonder Woman OE scans yet?

carver9
Nope...that's all they are going to say is she is FTL which would make her faster than both Superman and Flash. Whatever, I'm done here.

carver9
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99449/4284757-wwblockingomegaeffect.jpg

Sin I AM
What exactly is even the argument here? Someone is claiming the OE can be outpaced? Not seeing the relevance

Branlor Swift
I don't even know what this thread or the argument is about. All I know is that Scandaddy has been awoken and for that everyone pays.

DarkSaint85
Ha.

1. I mentioned that Scarlet Witch is all over the place, and had trouble with MODOK, of all people. Reality warping isn't exactly her average.
2. Carver then had scan flu, and vomited scans everywhere.
3. I mentioned, hey, in all your posts of how awesome she was, you left the scans out of Hope headbutting her and punching her lights out.
4. I then brought up the point, hey, considering the OBs were catching up to Flash, hitting simultaneous people (Wanda, a glass cannon amongst them) isn't far fetched.
5. The Carvatar was awakened, and now Carver is trying to get revenge on me when I posted all those months back about how Hulk WASN'T FTL, that when he outreacted Proxima Midnight's spears, they weren't travelling all that fast.

By posting Batman in the Hellbat armour and with the chaos shard/Mr Miracle with Boomspheres and the OE, and now, WW blocking the OB, as proof that in actual fact, the OBs are hella slow, so much so that a character with human level reactions can outreact them.

Despite a mod even coming in and saying that they can have different speeds.

riv6672
Originally posted by Existere
Wanda's showings are all over the place. Yeah, she had trouble with MODOK, but she also KO'd entire teams of Avengers and X-Men with a wave of her hand in Children's Crusade.
If we're going to consider lows, we HAVE to consider highs. Its not one or the other if people arent willing to just go with an average.

Reflassshh
You were the ones saying that Wanda would 'turn the OB into daisies' iirc.

She does that on average? lol

Having human-level reactions isn't a 'low showing' for her. Or do you have scans of her showing faster reactions?

riv6672
Wow, you stink BALLS at english.
High+low. Divide. = average.

Also, i'm not "you guys" who said anything about daisies.Your memory is selective.

Reflassshh
Thanks for the insight, so useful thumb up

You was supporting him. She's warping reality on average?

riv6672
Still having trouble with that word, huh?
Bummer.

And, you're welcome.

Reflassshh
Says the guy who can't answer a simple yes/no question stick out tongue

Sin I AM
On average id say mid herald but she's a glass cannon and her highs are extreme. She reminds me of new avengers sentry with uber powerset yet glaring weaknesses

ODG
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. I mentioned that Scarlet Witch is all over the place, and had trouble with MODOK, of all people. Reality warping isn't exactly her average. That was right after she regained her memories and powers after Children's Crusade. She even mentions that she's rusty.

Tony Stark
AVENGERS

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by ODG
That was right after she regained her memories and powers after Children's Crusade. She even mentions that she's rusty.

Indeed. Was just pointing out that she isn't warping reality all the time.

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