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Who wins?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BQ9MODXlMms/TGFdfYYQqPI/AAAAAAAAAVA/ySTC9eItjMk/s1600/agenkolar.jpg

Kolar honestly stomps. Not all Zabraks are created equal, it seems.

^
agree

You should put someone like Darth Voren, the guy who insure the security on the personal interdictor of Revan...

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kolar honestly stomps. Not all Zabraks are created equal, it seems.

No way. Kolar's good, but Sazen holds his own against quite a number of fairly powerful foes. There's no stomping going on here.

So has Vos, lol

Originally posted by ILS
So has Vos, lol


His two strongest foes, (1) badly outmatched him until he was boosted by two masters, and (2) was a hard fight after he had more training and had leveled up since the Kolar fight.


Sazen's fought Nihl, Talon, Stryfe, beat up Cade in HtH....


Nihl or Talon'd beat Kolar, I feel pretty confident in saying. Agen doesn't have all that many feats.

Instead of editing in scans (which is what I presume the bracketed numbers are for) could you just reference the showings you're trying to lowball Vos with so I can debunk you?

And lol @ Nihl or Talon beating Kolar.

Anyway I take it you're referring to Volfe Karkko and Bulq. Not much to say really. Karkko is a very powerful Force User, and him throwing Vos around with TK and lightning is a great feat for him. Not sure if Sazen would have done all that well in that scenario either. As for Bulq, Vos was incredibly conflicted during the Bulq fight which usually leads to a drop in performance for him, but even then he contended with Bulq pretty well when Bulq wasn't attacking him with TK. Also, Vos hadn't improved by very much at all after the fight with Kolar. The increase was slight, really. He has good dueling showings prior to his fight with Kolar as well.

As for the feats you referenced for Sazen, you haven't provided nearly enough context on any of them for me to really care about your point, if it was indeed meant to be an argument.

Originally posted by ILS
Instead of editing in scans (which is what I presume the bracketed numbers are for)

No, they're enumerating arguments.


I'll throw in an image, though. That's the Sith Lord in charge of the destruction of Dac, and normally assigned to the fleet in charge of hunting down the Alliance Fleet. He's a high ranking, powerful and skilled sith.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100907023616/starwars/images/thumb/1/12/AzardDeath-Legacy50.jpg/552px-AzardDeath-Legacy50.jpg




Better force feats, been shown to fight far more often, more saber feats... I'll revisit this later.


Kolar has barely done anything, you realize.

Sazen's killed a powerful Sith, Azard, who's in turn shown significant combat and force skills, force-shielding against large explosions, dueling Tries Sinde to a standstill (Tries has engaged in sparing with Emperor Fel, was once slated to be leader of the Imperial Knights were it not for his attitude, etc.. In short, Azard has proven himself against someone who in turn has proven himself against known foes). Sazen's killed plenty of rank-and-file sith who attacked him in groups. Both Nihl and Talon have significant feats, and are difficult fights for Cade. Yadda yadda.


Kolar beat Vos, who at the time was about as strong as K'Kruhk judging by the Vos vs K'Kruhk fight, and then was stomped by Sidious.





Are you unaware of much legacy stuff? That could explain it. If you're not, then you probably shouldn't simply assume someone is stronger or laugh when it's suggested other characters are superior.


I mean, Talon's all over Kolar in force power, no question, with a feet in the dozens to hundreds of tons with her TK, using lightning and tk in combination with her physical fighting, etc., plus dueling wise she's both curbstomped masters herself, and is regularly a tricky fight for Cade in sabers. Nihl, well, he has fewer feats, but he is considered even stronger than Talon and has better saber skills, and a zap of his lightning was enough to take down Jedi Grandmaster Kol Skywalker. Notably, they're both also in Krayt's inner circle, and have the job of hunting down and killing or capturing foes like, well, Kolar's the type of target they'd be sent against, and they do have the feats to back it up.


Discounting Legacy used to be pretty common around here, but as more people got knowledgeable about them, that significantly dropped.

If I was lazy about posting feats, it's that I'm used to people being used to the more extensive posting that's been done. There's probably some respect threads around others can point you to...

Quinlan proved himself to be stronger than either Ayala or Tholme during the battle with the Morgukai; dominating him in the manner than he did skyrockets Kolar far and beyond what Sazen has shown us.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quinlan proved himself to be stronger than either Ayala or Tholme during the battle with the Morgukai;

Sure, but neither of them are Sazen strong.

Also? That was well after the Kolar fight, I think something like a year later. Quinlan fairly explicitly leveled up as things went on.




Not really, Sazen does match up with some very high level duelists on a regular basis, and I do point out the increase in skill.

Heck, Vos even was more interested in escaping than anything else.

Kolar does have a good feat there, but it is *a* feat, against a foe who changes over time, and where circumstances play a role.

ILS getting his rocks off of defending Kolar tbh

I fail to see how Ayala defeating Aurra Sing is somehow inferior to besting a third-class Sith that wasn't even paying attention to Sazen.

And try to stop pulling stuff out of your ass, tbh. The fight with the Morgukai was a ways before his fight with Kolar.

I also see a pattern in the claims of vast improvement for Quinlan; only seems to come from the people who haven't read a single one of his comics.

A featless Sith, you mean?
TK only matters if you incorporate it enough to prevent being steamrolled in a duel. Quantity of showings has no bearing on their quality.
Not seeing how the number of his showings do anything to diminish their quality. Mind explaining how that works?
So let me get this straight.

Your argument for Sazen being better than Kolar (someone who has steamrolled Quinlan Vos), is because Sazen beat Azard, who beat someone who sparred someone who was the head of the Imperial Knights?

Vos has fought off handfuls of pre-TCW Nightsisters on-Dathomir. He casually bested Kadrien Sey and Tol Skorr on a potent dark side nexus. While extremely injured, he came close to killing the two Morgukai, one of which routinely gives Aayla Secura a close fight (and Aayla Secura defeated Aurra Sing, a character with a plethora of showings and accolades such as contending with Jinn/Kenobi and being noted as being "one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy" from a martial standpoint).

Vos has beaten potent groups of amped fodder, and nearly took out two combatants (while heavily injured), who individually are a hard fight for a being, who has beaten beings who have their own extensive track record of dueling ability.

And Kolar absolutely steamrolled Vos in two moves.

Vos alone has better showings than Sazen, never mind the guy who wrecked him.
Beating featless Sith is okay but not overwhelming. Talon has been steamrolled by an in-training Cade, with Nihl being a decent fight for him but still inferior. Not sure how this helps build the case for either of them beating Kolar.
Your summary of each character is woeful.
I'm aware of the character's general placement in the skill hierarchy and the nature of their feats through debating, just haven't read the comics.
She can be all over Kolar in Force power all she wants, I'm just not seeing why she can prevent herself from being steamrolled in sabers. Cade takes her out pretty decisively in most of their fights.
Him being better than Talon is a start but you haven't got out of your way to explain why that allows him to be better than Kolar in a duel. Your best argument would be Force power, but dueling is unfortunately just the more important facet of combat more often than not.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quinlan has a very valid chance, but I'm handing the win to Kas'im. The new novel coming out could change that, however...

:what:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t599164.html

@Q99: Wait, the Vos vs K'Kruhk fight? Vos completely wrecked K'Kruhk.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I fail to see how Ayala defeating Aurra Sing is somehow inferior to besting a third-class Sith that wasn't even paying attention to Sazen.

Azard's no-where near third class.




Wait, do you mean the Siege of Saleucami or one of the other times he fought them? Because the Siege of Saleucami was waaay later.

If you mean the first time... that was 7 years before the Kolar fight! Aayla was a Knight or... was she even a padawan back then...? oh yea, that was the incident that got her knighted, and way before when she took on Aurra, which was late Clone Wars.

Peak Aayla, when she fought Aurra, would be a better fight for Kolar than the Vos who faced him then was. When you jump up and down the timeline you gotta take progression into place, with Aurra you're jumping around from padawan to master.

(Aurra, I'll remind you, was quite dangerous to Qui-Gon Jinn in a fight! Padawan Aayla would've been an easy kill to her)




Nope, own almost all of them (I lack the Dathomir one since it wasn't in the original collections) and have since before I came to this board Heck, one of the reasons I picked up Legacy in the first place is it had the same writer as the Quinlan stuff.


The end of the Siege of Saleucami is when Quinlan came back to the light, in 19BBY.

When he fought Kolar was in 21BBY.


In between, he had training from Dooku. Do-oku. Dooo-ku. Maybe you've heard of him? I believe even commented on Vos's progress a time or two.

That is a rather significant thing to have, and a pretty significant amount of experience.

Quinlan had a character arc of growth, including growth of skill, during his story. Early on, he got beat up by Kolar, but at the end, he beat someone stronger than Kolar.

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/thumbs/gallery/697157/83373455.jpg

In short, final Quinlan >> early war Quinlan. Kolar > early war Quinlan, but beating early war Quinlan doesn't show him to be an unstoppable badass. He's below, say, Kit Fisto.

lol @ your lack of proof for Quinlan improving so substantially. Literally all we have is Dooku saying "better" after sparring Vos.

Originally posted by Q99
Azard's no-where near third class.

Krayt/Wyyrlok-->Hands/Krayt's Circle-->Guys who work under the Hands, like Azard.



Long before.



Prove it, tbh.

And even then, it doesn't account for Tholme, who is also a capable Jedi Master.



http://r30.imgfast.net/users/3013/11/32/39/smiles/2839408376.png
I'm shocked. The fact that you've read the material makes this more astounding, tbh.



So? His showings didn't exactly skyrocket, especially if you're to compare his earlier comparisons with people like Tholme and Tol Skorr to his later ones.



You're making a lot of assumptions to back a lacking argument. According to whom is Bulq Agen's superior?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Krayt/Wyyrlok-->Hands/Krayt's Circle-->Guys who work under the Hands, like Azard.

Keep in mind, we're still in the top-10 One Sith in the order. Imagine if the Jedi council was the Grand Master + 5 people. Agen Kolar would be outside of it too, but still important.

Really, the only thing that puts Stryfe above Azard is the respective showings against Sazen, and arguably grabbing Saarai's heart when similarly grabbed. Azard may not be in the circle but he's clearly one of the strongest and most important sith outside of it, him and Havok. There's sith lower than him that show impressive power, like Wredd's master.




Well, it can't really be proven for certain one way or another, but that's my impression considering Aurra's high performance against a large numbers of masters, from Sharad to Qui-Gon to ones we don't know as much about.




A highly capable spy. He never really does all that well in direct fights despite his skill. Like, ever ^^;




How much I like something and how strong I think it is isn't necessarily related.

Zayne Carrick's one of my favorite SW protagonists of all time ^^

Quinlan comes across as an underdog even in some of the fights he wins.



He's casually dismissed by Windu and Kolar early on, later on he's taking on Sora Bulq head on. You don't call that skyrocketing?

And Skorr started out dangerous to Vos, but Vos continued to widen the gap- even though Skorr should've been improving too.





According to his performance against Windu, I would say.


But, if he's not, that doesn't really help the argument much. Bulq is easily Vos's best straight win. If Bulq is weaker than Kolar, then that just means Vos never caught up.

I agree Kolar wins but damn Talon and Nihl and other Legacy characters get lowballed pretty badly.

I mean I could just as easily say Ulic doesn't impress me at all since he defeated Warb Null whose only feat was fighting 3 featless jedi simultaneously. Sure Ulic stalemated Exar Kun, but Kun has only beaten featless Vodo Baas, etc.

I think eras are likely a lot closer in skill than people admit, and comics are hard to gauge feats from.


Also, Sazen slew Azard after Krayt revealed he was alive again through the Force, and it distracted Azard which allowed Sazen to deal the fatal blow.

Sazen has fought evenly with Cade and Talon and Nihl. All of which is better than beating Voss. You loose

None of those things are really true; and it would be unhelpful to the Legacy's end of things if they were.

After all, at the end of the day, Cade and the others are in large part powerscaled off of how much better than Sazen they are. The smaller you want to make that gap, the less impressive their showings will seem to be as a result.

TBH.

Originally posted by Trocity
I agree Kolar wins but damn Talon and Nihl and other Legacy characters get lowballed pretty badly.

I mean I could just as easily say Ulic doesn't impress me at all since he defeated Warb Null whose only feat was fighting 3 featless jedi simultaneously. Sure Ulic stalemated Exar Kun, but Kun has only beaten featless Vodo Baas, etc. They also get highballed by certain individuals, a lot.

They have more on their dueling track record than just what you mentioned, which is where the comparison falls short.

Originally posted by ILS
They also get highballed by certain individuals, a lot.

I don't think it's highballing when they are some of the stronger individuals around at the time.

Btw, I do mentally put Sazen and Kolar in the same general "Mid-Council" level. They're notable badasses, the Jedi bosses send them on important stuff, they regularly do well in combat missions against skilled foes, and there's a couple of their colleagues who're better-still than them.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
None of those things are really true; and it would be unhelpful to the Legacy's end of things if they were.

After all, at the end of the day, Cade and the others are in large part powerscaled off of how much better than Sazen they are. The smaller you want to make that gap, the less impressive their showings will seem to be as a result.

TBH.

I would say Cade and the others were more scaled on how they handled entire groups of normal sith/jedi, and crossovers with people in other eras, and force feats and similar.

I mean, among the main crew that all bounce off each other, we do have Draco taking down a dogpile of a half-dozen sith all at once on his own, very soon after having taken down two prior. He's a bit better than Sazen, but is another that clashes with the Hands and such on fairly close terms.


Nihl's scaled off Sazen to a fair extent, but Cade's the one we have the most battle data on so others tend to scale off him more than anyone else.


I'd say, knowledge-wise, it goes Krayt =~ Cade > Talon > Draco and Sazen and such.


Originally posted by Trocity

Also, Sazen slew Azard after Krayt revealed he was alive again through the Force, and it distracted Azard which allowed Sazen to deal the fatal blow.

The fact that such a minor distraction as that was so fatal still speaks to strength, IMO. It's not like he turned off his saber or such, just a tiny lapse was all the opening needed to slay him.





Yes. And I think one can gauge comic feats, but one does have to pay attention to results a bit more because there's no minute-long video or described blow-by-blow explaining how impressive each aspect is.

Originally posted by Q99
I would say Cade and the others were more scaled on how they handled entire groups of normal sith/jedi,

If that was all Cade had under his belt, he wouldn't be anything particularly special. His demolishing of Talon backed up by taking on hordes of Sith fodder makes him so; given that Talon herself was a ways ahead of capable masters like Sazen.



Draco has never even dueled one of the hands, to my knowledge; though he did duel (and was beaten by) Darth Havok and Roan Fel, who I would think were on that level, yes. Though even then, Sazen isn't as good as Antares is.



We have no data Cade at all, or anyone from the Legacy era at all with the exceptions of the few crossover characters. Not even any usable accolades, which are often the basis of what makes feats impressive, at least when it comes to skill. (Force Feats are easier, because they can be directly compared without a middle man)

In such a scenario, you have to build from the bottom up. It's ultimately fighters like Sazen that establish Nihl's and Talon's tier, and them that establishes Cade's--not the other way around.



What do you mean "knowledge wise"?



As if. He completely turned away from Sazen and started cheering for Krayt, and Sazen himself attributed his victory to that fact.