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Who wins?
No Prep..
No B.F.R..




The JSA (Preflashpoint)

Cls.Mr.Terrific
Cls.Shazam
Cls.G.L Scott
Cls.Hawkman
Cls.Fate
Cls.Jay Garrick
Cls.Hawkgirl


Vs


The JLA (Dcnu)

Batman
Superman
G.L Hal
Wonder Woman
M.Manhunter
Flash
Aquaman





Everyone is in there standard form.

Scott pull the edge for his team. That's if he dips into his reserves. If not, I think Superman and Wonder Woman could beat any GL.

At his best Alan and fate are trans. JSA win solidly.

Originally posted by carver9
Scott pull the edge for his team. That's if he dips into his reserves. If not, I think Superman and Wonder Woman could beat any GL. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phail14.jpg

Originally posted by Golgo13
At his best Alan and fate are trans. JSA win solidly.




Alan and Fate are in classic form here.. Standard form. Plz read the op guys

Originally posted by Supermex
Alan and Fate are in classic form here.. Standard form. Plz read the op guys

You put "Shazam" so you gave the JSA the wizard.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You put "Shazam" so you gave the JSA the wizard.


lol no Captain Marvel is not called Captain Marvel any longer, he now is called Shazam in DC comics..

lol

Originally posted by Supermex
lol no Captain Marvel is not called Captain Marvel any longer, he now is called Shazam in DC comics..

lol

That's Post-FLASHPOINT. Which means Pre-FLASHPOINT you gave the wizard, not Billy.

Originally posted by Delta1938
That's Post-FLASHPOINT. Which means Pre-FLASHPOINT you gave the wizard, not Billy.



Its billy thou

Originally posted by Supermex
Its billy thou

Then correct yourself and admit you got the character wrong.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Then correct yourself and admit you got the character wrong.



lol I Dont care if I got it wrong


But I just said it Billy


If I was wrong big deal. I hope Dont lose any sleep over it lol

Delta how you been Nerd!!

Originally posted by Supermex
lol I Dont care if I got it wrong


But I just said it Billy


If I was wrong big deal. I hope Dont lose any sleep over it lol

I'll lose plenty of sleep!!! I blame all my insomnia on YOU!!

Originally posted by Supermex
Delta how you been Nerd!!

Long story.

Originally posted by Delta1938
I'll lose plenty of sleep!!! I blame all my insomnia on YOU!!



Long story.



Sorry to bud, I hope you all good now!

Fate wins it for the JSA

Originally posted by tkitna
Fate wins it for the JSA



Manhunter might give him a rough time?

Fate has oneshotted J'onn previously.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Fate has oneshotted J'onn previously.

Though he used Pre-FLASHPOINT for JSA, Post-FLASHPOINT for JLA. Although I don't know if there'd be enough of a difference for it to matter, especially if he meant Kent Nelson by "classic Fate."

Originally posted by Delta1938
Though he used Pre-FLASHPOINT for JSA, Post-FLASHPOINT for JLA. Although I don't know if there'd be enough of a difference for it to matter, especially if he meant Kent Nelson by "classic Fate."





Sorry folks


I ment to use a Dr.Fate closet to Cls.Dr.Strange

Originally posted by Supermex
Alan and Fate are in classic form here.. Standard form. Plz read the op guys

Right. And in their standard, pre-Flashpoint form, those two have by far the best raw power feats of anyone in the fight. Fate adds magic to the equation, which is another chink the the JLA's armor that I don't really see them having a response to.

Flash is the only one the JSA might not have an immediate answer for, depending on whether or not Jay has his connection to the Speed Force. "Classic" can mean several things, and there's some disambiguation that's needed (who's under the Fate helmet, speed force Jay, etc.). Otherwise, JSA solidly.

Unless by classic you mean pre-COIE. But saying Pre-FP seems pretty clear, so yeah.

JLA stomps

Originally posted by relentless1
JLA stomps
not on their best day, almost any version of pre fp Dr Fate could handle a big chunk of the team alone. The only JLA member who's gonna be hard for them to take down is Flash. Thats only if its pre fp Wally with full speed force. Though even pre COIE, there was one JLA/JSA cross over where when the JSA were perverted by a galactic level being (based off IIRC a zodiac sign) after he had amped himself by absorbing starman's star rod energy that Barry did well vs Classic Fate with (again from an old mans memory only) a little help from Atom (Palmer).

i don't buy it, any magic user is going to be put down before an incantation can be uttered by a speedster like Flash. Hell Superman, Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter have crazy speed too, you really think Fate can think faster that the speed of sound, or the speed of light?

now if Spectre was on the JSA my answer would change for sure

SMH

In Virtue and Vice, Fate actually did take out many of the JLA members by BFR them to the Tower of Fate. Looks like Flash was one of them.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/FF_zps91cdkitt.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/FF2_zpslbuhzyjt.jpg

i stand corrected, looks like Fate is a game changer

Originally posted by Golgo13
In Virtue and Vice, Fate actually did take out many of the JLA members by BFR them to the Tower of Fate. Looks like Flash was one of them.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/FF_zps91cdkitt.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/FF2_zpslbuhzyjt.jpg
Fate didn't teleport flash, they were sent to Limbo by Terrific.

And Superman was already koed by a sneak attack from captain marvel.

JSA wins.

Originally posted by relentless1
i don't buy it, any magic user is going to be put down before an incantation can be uttered by a speedster like Flash. Hell Superman, Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter have crazy speed too, you really think Fate can think faster that the speed of sound, or the speed of light?

Any magic user except the one who has super strength, invulnerabily, super speed (hyper sonic), tk, tp, and energy and matter manip without so mauch as casting a spell (which is Dr Fate)

Just to show what I mean, here is Cls Fate without the Helmet of Nabu and all his magic. Just the powers he has courtesy of the alterations Nabu made to his body.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3610382-half+helmet+dr+fte+endurance+3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3610384-half+helmet+fate+endurance+2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3610383-half+helmet+fate+endurance.jpg

Despite having a seven story brown stone dropped on his head and being blasted by Cyclotron who was alter described as a living hiroshima bomb all it does is slow him down.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/AAanohelmetFatestrength.jpg.html
Even without his "magical powers he has super strength (around if not just below class 100), flight, invulnerability (except the need to breath, a weakness he no longer lacks with his magical Helm of Nabu on), TK and sixth sense/precog (honestly more like a danger sense though not as keen as Spidey's)

you mentioned Spectre? here is one of Fate's fights with him

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/fatevspectre.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec2.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/SpectrevFate3.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec4.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec5.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec6.jpg.html
He's not in Spectre's weight class but he's a lot closer than many.

Here we see him move a planet into a sun with the power of his mind (and his "energy"
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/fatemovesaplanet-1.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/fatemovesaplanet-2.jpg.html

an example of how he "control's his own atoms"
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/Drfateenergymanipulator-1.jpg.html
using the "atomic energy from within him".

As for Fate's magic, he doesn't have to caste spells etc to use it. The use of spells focuses power for strong attacks against powerful magic but to use magic he only has to will something to happen. No different to how GL makes constructs with his ring. That was how he taught his wife to use the power when she became Fate

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/birthbyfire.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/1justvisualize.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/2visualize.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DoctoFatehealing.jpg.html

It's really not that hard for Cls Fate to turn the fight. He can't solo the JLA but he can certainly take on a few at once.

Originally posted by beatboks
Just to show what I mean, here is Cls Fate without the Helmet of Nabu and all his magic. Just the powers he has courtesy of the alterations Nabu made to his body.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3610382-half+helmet+dr+fte+endurance+3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3610384-half+helmet+fate+endurance+2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3610383-half+helmet+fate+endurance.jpg

Despite having a seven story brown stone dropped on his head and being blasted by Cyclotron who was alter described as a living hiroshima bomb all it does is slow him down.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/AAanohelmetFatestrength.jpg.html
Even without his "magical powers he has super strength (around if not just below class 100), flight, invulnerability (except the need to breath, a weakness he no longer lacks with his magical Helm of Nabu on), TK and sixth sense/precog (honestly more like a danger sense though not as keen as Spidey's)

you mentioned Spectre? here is one of Fate's fights with him

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/fatevspectre.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec2.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/SpectrevFate3.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec4.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec5.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec6.jpg.html
He's not in Spectre's weight class but he's a lot closer than many.

Here we see him move a planet into a sun with the power of his mind (and his "energy"
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/fatemovesaplanet-1.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/fatemovesaplanet-2.jpg.html

an example of how he "control's his own atoms"
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/Drfateenergymanipulator-1.jpg.html
using the "atomic energy from within him".

As for Fate's magic, he doesn't have to caste spells etc to use it. The use of spells focuses power for strong attacks against powerful magic but to use magic he only has to will something to happen. No different to how GL makes constructs with his ring. That was how he taught his wife to use the power when she became Fate

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/birthbyfire.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/1justvisualize.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/2visualize.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DoctoFatehealing.jpg.html

It's really not that hard for Cls Fate to turn the fight. He can't solo the JLA but he can certainly take on a few at once.
This isn't Kent Nelson Fate here.

Are we forgetting that when Alan went rogue, he was taking it to both of these teams? I think there's just too much of a raw power gap, regardless of the incarnation of Fate we're using (which we don't technically know, since the OP is ambiguous on the matter). Obviously it's not a stomp either way, but the only known trump card the JLA has is with Flash, which may also be mitigated if Jay has access to the speed force.

Originally posted by Digi
Are we forgetting that when Alan went rogue, he was taking it to both of these teams? I think there's just too much of a raw power gap, regardless of the incarnation of Fate we're using (which we don't technically know, since the OP is ambiguous on the matter). Obviously it's not a stomp either way, but the only known trump card the JLA has is with Flash, which may also be mitigated if Jay has access to the speed force.
Are we forgetting that Alan was amped by a star heart meteor in Brightest Day?

Superman would wreck Alan in any kind of forum fight.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman would wreck Alan in any kind of forum fight.
Make this fight.

You'll be surprised.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Make this fight.

You'll be surprised.
Yeah, because somehow everybody remembers only a few high end feats from Alan and forget that Alan has made a career of getting his ass kicked by flying bricks.

And magic is auto win against Superman obviously. Last time I argued against this thread, it basically boiled to "Alan has magic, he wins".

Slowly but surely turning into another Superman vs thread.

Originally posted by carver9
Slowly but surely turning into another Superman vs thread.

Heh.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Are we forgetting that Alan was amped by a star heart meteor in Brightest Day?

Superman would wreck Alan in any kind of forum fight.

Wait, he was? I thought he just gave in to the Starheart's evil.

Anyway, I disagree on the latter, but Alan certainly has fewer high-end feats. I just think his highest are > most or all HHs. But there's a case to be made, I suppose.

Originally posted by Digi
Heh. I forgot superman wasn't in this thread. Oh wait!!!!



Yeah, he was. It was revealed that Starheart was responsible for his power up. The time he actually let his full power gained by that amp go, his body was destroyed.
I don't. He had few high end feats but he isn't above top heralds like Thor or Superman. He got a push in lip service under Johns but he also made him a punching bag for Black Adam. Later it got so bad that Captain Nazi was beating him up.

Originally posted by abhilegend
This isn't Kent Nelson Fate here.

Then what is meant by Cls? I thought that meant classic.

Starheart is within Alan...part of him which is also usable here in this battle.

Originally posted by carver9
Starheart is within Alan...part of him which is also usable here in this battle.
You don't know what you are talking about.

AQUAMAN SOLOS

Originally posted by abhilegend
You don't know what you are talking about.

Well, Alan is a conduit for the Starheart energy, so you may have to clarify your point here. He's always had its full potential within his call, but he has to keep it in check via his willpower. This is referenced several times throughout the JSA's run. In fact, in his final showing before the Flashpoint reboot, he specifically unleashes the full Starheart power again...something he was scared to do, because he didn't want to become evil again. But Mr. Terrific's belief in him allowed him to risk it.

I get that it's not his default. But once unleashed, he's an established team-wrecker level. I don't want to make this about Alan vs. Superman, but I'm more interested in how you view Alan's power set.

Originally posted by Digi
Well, Alan is a conduit for the Starheart energy, so you may have to clarify your point here. He's always had its full potential within his call, but he has to keep it in check via his willpower. This is referenced several times throughout the JSA's run. In fact, in his final showing before the Flashpoint reboot, he specifically unleashes the full Starheart power again...something he was scared to do, because he didn't want to become evil again. But Mr. Terrific's belief in him allowed him to risk it.

I get that it's not his default. But once unleashed, he's an established team-wrecker level. I don't want to make this about Alan vs. Superman, but I'm more interested in how you view Alan's power set.
Alan didn't have the full power of star heart since Heart of Darkness mini. In Brightest Day he was explicitly amped by starheart meteor which had brought Jade from Oa.

Alan only channels a small part of starheart, he almost never had the full power of it.

That doesn't jive with what I remember, like Mordru observing that a mortal was channeling the Starheart, and Alan's own words in the JSA's final Pre-FP arc. I'll go back and re-read some stuff at some point to see the details, though. I don't have any reason not to take you at your word, and most KMC members these days are more meticulous readers than I am when it comes to this stuff. It's just not what I remember, so now I'm curious.

srug

Originally posted by Digi
That doesn't jive with what I remember, like Mordru observing that a mortal was channeling the Starheart, and Alan's own words in the JSA's final Pre-FP arc. I'll go back and re-read some stuff at some point to see the details, though. I don't have any reason not to take you at your word, and most KMC members these days are more meticulous readers than I am when it comes to this stuff. It's just not what I remember, so now I'm curious.

srug
Mordru said he was channeling starheart not that he had the full starheart.

And in that story, Alan was suppressing the amp given by starheart as it would've killed him if he stopped suppressing it.

That doesn't go against what I said, even if it were true.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Mordru said he was channeling starheart not that he had the full starheart.

And in that story, Alan was suppressing the amp given by starheart as it would've killed him if he stopped suppressing it.

Agreed on the Mordru thing, but he also never says "part of the Starheart" or something to that affect. One would assume that, in this context, "the Starheart" means "the Starheart." /srug Same with the part where he was afraid it might kill him. Presumably any amp was gone by that point, yeah? Then why did he still have access to the entirety of the Starheart?

It's just...even if the meteor thing is an amp, when was it stated he's only channeling part of the Starheart before that time?

Because saying a phrase like "the amp given by Starheart..." seems almost impossible to me, because his power is the Starheart. And it always was in the post-COIE DC. Maybe it was an amp to its influence over him, but the nature of the power never changed iirc.

I do need to re-read the arc now when he goes rogue. Too many tie-ins these days. It just seems like we're having an odd conversation.

Originally posted by Digi
Agreed on the Mordru thing, but he also never says "part of the Starheart" or something to that affect. One would assume that, in this context, "the Starheart" means "the Starheart." /srug Same with the part where he was afraid it might kill him. Presumably any amp was gone by that point, yeah? Then why did he still have access to the entirety of the Starheart?

It's just...even if the meteor thing is an amp, when was it stated he's only channeling part of the Starheart before that time?

Because saying a phrase like "the amp given by Starheart..." seems almost impossible to me, because his power is the Starheart. And it always was in the post-COIE DC. Maybe it was an amp to its influence over him, but the nature of the power never changed iirc.

I do need to re-read the arc now when he goes rogue. Too many tie-ins these days. It just seems like we're having an odd conversation.

In the first fight with Mordru in JSA Alan corrects Mmordru and says "green Flame" when Mordru called it the starheart. When he became Sentinel and no longer needed a ring it was specifically the "green Flame" that was his power source.

It's a subtle but very definite distinction. The Green Flame was the "good" magic that was captured with the evil magic when the Guardians were trying to make the universe clock like. Knowing the evil would one ay escape it broke itself free and became the meteor that was the origin for the creation of Alan's power battery.

The whole reconned reason (and there were several retcons this being the last) that Alan had a weakness to wood was that the power of the green flame came from life and Wood was part of life. Supposedly Alan's power couldn't be used against life. (another retcon had to do with a GL who over stepped his bounds and his power battery was altered but this was pre starheart retcon).

In the Heart of Darkness mini, it was shown he was also linked to the starheart, and because of it the starheart could cut him off from his power and make him physical again. When Mordru stripped teh power from him in JSA that was the green flame "pulled from his chest 9and again we saw his body changing back from energy to physical highlighted by Shade pointing it out).

His own personal power was only ever the green flame 9a small percentage of the overall starheart) with the ability to tap more. the only times we ever see him do so however are when he was highly emotional ( his wifes soul in hell in underworld unleashed, his son turned dark and his feeling of responsibility, his team ataes beleived dead at the hands of Mordru etc)