Magneto Vs The Ray

Golgo13

Stoic

Originally posted by Golgo13
I think this is a good match.

Really?

Stoic

Originally posted by Golgo13
Really.

How does Magneto stop the Ray in light form? My first thought was stomp in Ray's favor.

cdtm

Can Mag's deal with a light speedster, though?

I don't doubt he could do something to Ray, given enough time. The thing is, Ray's about as big a hothead as Guy Gardner, but has even less restraint when it comes to holding back.

Hell, he killed his father, Happy, during one of his tantrums. In the legal sense. Stopped his heart for a time, and barely managed to resuscitate him.

carver9

Is this Magneto at his Prime Golgo or is this current Mags that is weakened?

carver9

Anyways...Ray can be a problem as shown here...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/4/49974/4012456-phomag.jpg

But there are counters. It depends on the Mags that is being used here.

TheHulk

Going for Mags 7/10.

but this ain't mo bad match up.

abhilegend

Ray has control over his energy form. Proteus had divided himself and was weakened. Originally posted by cdtm
Can Mag's deal with a light speedster, though?

I don't doubt he could do something to Ray, given enough time. The thing is, Ray's about as big a hothead as Guy Gardner, but has even less restraint when it comes to holding back.

Hell, he killed his father, Happy, during one of his tantrums. In the legal sense. Stopped his heart for a time, and barely managed to resuscitate him.
Can you post the scans where Ray time traveled?

zopzop

Originally posted by cdtm
Ray's underrated these days, but he was built up as pretty monsterously powerful back in the day. Took down both Triumph and Dr. Polaris, two DC villains with magnetic powers, for what that's worth.

And didn't Monica just phase through Mags shield in her energy form? Ray's energy form is light, and light penetrates his barrior, so why couldn't Ray do the same thing? Originally posted by Golgo13
Yeah, in Avengers V X-Men series. Not the last one. I wonder if Magneto can defend against someone who can move FTL.

Also, when Ray is in energy form, he can't be physically harmed as when he fought Lobo.

I think this is a good match.
It is a good match and a lot closer than Team Magneto is willing to admit.

Like it's already been mentioned, Ray has beaten people with a power set similar to Magneto's. It was stated on panel that Ray can become any form of energy in the EM Spectrum not just light (it was in an issue of Final Crisis I think).

The best part is, Ray's control over his energy form is so absolute that even ANTI-MATTER couldn't destroy him. He was warped by it, but he quickly reconstituted himself.

As we've already seen on panel, energy based beings can go right through Magneto's force fields and zap him.

I'm going with pre DCNu Ray. No idea how powerful DCNu Ray is so no comment there.

abhilegend

Hey Zop, do you know the issue number where Ray traveled in time under his own speed?

zopzop

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hey Zop, do you know the issue number where Ray traveled in time under his own speed?
No, I don't recall that feat of his. sad

leonidas

really, this it will just come down to a matter of who you believe would have the greater control over em radiation in the end. i'd take mags at his best.

cdtm

Abhi, I was meaning to upload the scans, but got caught up rereading. (I could never just breeze by the bit with the white trust fund babies, the black wanna be gangsters, and Ray working a KFC type window.)

I'll try and get them up today.

psycho gundam

beatboks

Originally posted by leonidas
have you seen what he did to proteus? and proteus is/was an absolute monster. exiles proteus was freakin great. monica has actually gotten through his shields a couple times in the past though. he has however shown that he can modulate the frequency of his shielding pretty easily. if he did that, he could easily keep her or ray out then take his time, study ray's form a bit then....:

only difference is ray isn't some utterly foreign form of energy, and isn't a reality warper. mags has shown enormous control over em radiation in the past. it's just sometimes forgotten by writers who believe all he controls is magnetism. a well written mags would handle ray just fine. a less than well written mags could have some problems i guess.

But that is just it, this exact statement applies to ray too. When well written hehe's an absolute beast. When he joined the JLA and they tested his power output he was stated to have energy output greater than anyone. A dimensional entity who had already best Bloodwynd and made MMH his puppet referred to Ray as the JLA'sJLA's most powerful member (borh obviously hyperbole, but still And Jonn often referred to jow powerful he was). During JLTF his energy projection was used often to mimic the abikities of a GL with energy constructs. Hell his most dangerous adversary in his solo title was onemof his own constructs that had bevome sentient, he cre a ted a light cunstruct and a comouter program to run it as a training tool, that evolved into his deadliest enemy.

For my money the story where Dr Light manipulated his energt just shouldn't have been possible. Based on his feats to that point Ray SHOULD have been the better energy manipulator

carver9

Originally posted by Golgo13
Yeah, in Avengers V X-Men series. Not the last one. I wonder if Magneto can defend against someone who can move FTL.

Also, when Ray is in energy form, he can't be physically harmed as when he fought Lobo.

I think this is a good match.

Don't think speed is the issue here. Not only has Mags flown the speed of light but he has also grabbed a blitzing Northstar like nothing.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113932/3456395-8681486931-Magne.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113932/3456397-3628870967-Magne.jpg

leonidas

Originally posted by beatboks
But that is just it, this exact statement applies to ray too. When well written hehe's an absolute beast. When he joined the JLA and they tested his power output he was stated to have energy output greater than anyone. A dimensional entity who had already best Bloodwynd and made MMH his puppet referred to Ray as the JLA'sJLA's most powerful member (borh obviously hyperbole, but still And Jonn often referred to jow powerful he was). During JLTF his energy projection was used often to mimic the abikities of a GL with energy constructs. Hell his most dangerous adversary in his solo title was onemof his own constructs that had bevome sentient, he cre a ted a light cunstruct and a comouter program to run it as a training tool, that evolved into his deadliest enemy.

For my money the story where Dr Light manipulated his energt just shouldn't have been possible. Based on his feats to that point Ray SHOULD have been the better energy manipulator

but mags has FAR more high end feats than ray does and light DID manipulate his energy form. those are reasons enough for me to think mags would take him but at this point the thread will just become tedious with one side saying he can and one side saying he can't. mags' history and feats are unquestionable. ray's, not so much. that's enough for me.

Existere

Power isn't really the question here - if Ray has lots of dialogue crediting him as being 'the most powerful JLA member', great for him! (though he can get in line, really, with the amount of people that hear that)

The issue is skill. Magneto has gone toe-to-toe with other energy manipulators and proven himself to be in his own league. I don't personally see Ray as having the feats of energy manipulation, especially against other energy manipulators, to match Mags.

The Dr. Light showing doesn't help.

abhilegend

Ray has helped to absorb Parallax's energy universe along with Captain Atom and Darkstar.

He has also produced enough energy along with Superman, Alan, Kyle to recreate another sun.

In energy manipulation, he is superior to Triumph, Captain Atom etc.

I don't think just because Dr. Light who is a beastly energy manipulator himself ambushed and absorbed his power, he can be manipulated by Magneto.

cdtm

Here we go. Ray flying so fast, he accidentally goes back in time 50 years.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay09-04_zps9c8b2e60.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay09-08_zpsfff8083b.jpg

Golgo13

That's insane. Has Magneto dealt with that type of speed?

abhilegend

Yeah, that's just beastly speed. He also beat Dr Polaris several times, didn't he?

zopzop

Originally posted by cdtm
Here we go. Ray flying so fast, he accidentally goes back in time 50 years.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay09-04_zps9c8b2e60.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay09-08_zpsfff8083b.jpg
thumb up

cdtm

And for no reason at all, here's Priest after (I can only assume, seeing it's 1995) watching Pulp Fiction:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-04_zps2a640331.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-05_zps0d6b6d2c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-06_zps41208b40.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-07_zpsdd5d7184.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-08_zpsfb79f778.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-13_zps3f8278df.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-14_zps20cb9851.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-15_zpsed8c0e12.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-16_zpsc1862a36.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/th_TheRay13-17_zps99919743.jpg

cdtm

I'll post Lobo later. big grin

Golgo13

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll post Lobo later. big grin

Where would you rank Ray? High herald? Low?

leonidas

no chance he is high herald. i think low herald is pretty fair actually. he could reach mid i guess--the boundary between low and mid can be blurry.

also, accidentally going back in time is supposed to HELP his case....? shows a lack of control imo. abhi, do you have the dr polaris fight? can't recall if i've seen it. i think i remember one where he helped the jla, but i don't remember the details if that's one of them....

Golgo13

carver9

Originally posted by Golgo13
It's more about if Mags can react to someone who moves FTL.

Do you think he can react to someone faster than light?

Existere

Magneto has a couple pretty ridiculous reaction feats, including seemingly raising his shields after Dazzler fires a light attack (iirc anyways, it's been a couple years since I read the whole scene).

He also has some ridiculous durability feats though, especially to energy attacks. I don't think it's utterly impossible for Ray to win this fight, but I do think that Magneto has the edge here, and should take a strong majority.

Golgo13

Originally posted by carver9
Do you think he can react to someone faster than light?

Not sure. Photon was able to get through his shields and she's about FTL. Supposedly, she has done this a few times.

Losing to Arthur Light isn't a low showing, considering what he has done. He can control ALL light. Even mystic based energy as well. I'd say he's about as skilled as Magneto, maybe even more so, because of his versatility. This is a guy who also took down Superman once, IIRC.

beatboks

Originally posted by leonidas
but mags has FAR more high end feats than ray does and light DID manipulate his energy form. those are reasons enough for me to think mags would take him but at this point the thread will just become tedious with one side saying he can and one side saying he can't. mags' history and feats are unquestionable. ray's, not so much. that's enough for me.
FTR I'm not saying Ray wins, I'm just one who believes neither one can be stated as "easily" taking the other. In the JLA story where the dimensional entity said Ray was their most powerful he needed great power to escape the confinement a he was in. He tricked ray into using his energy on him to do so. He'd already had MMH do as much and it wasn't any help. Atom then told Ray to absorb the energy back, he absorbed all the energy of the entire dimension and then the energy of the baing itself and sucked it back into its confinement. That's just one of his high end feats (more in JLTF) and it's due to feats like that that I find the whole Dr Light thing complete bunk. Yes he has the low feat but based on the high showings he has it just shouldn't have been possible.

leonidas

i don't think anyone said it would be easy--least i didn't. mags isn't always shown as capable of the proteus feat, unfortunately. i said earlier, i think ray has a chance. both at their best though, i'll take mags.

re: reactions--he's bent laser beams that have been fired at him, caught bullets multiple times raised shields seemingly instantly. he can see/sense all forms of energy. that alone would suggest he'd be able to react.

cdtm

Originally posted by leonidas
no chance he is high herald. i think low herald is pretty fair actually. he could reach mid i guess--the boundary between low and mid can be blurry.

also, accidentally going back in time is supposed to HELP his case....? shows a lack of control imo. abhi, do you have the dr polaris fight? can't recall if i've seen it. i think i remember one where he helped the jla, but i don't remember the details if that's one of them....

He was a young, inexperienced, and his father trolled him more then trained him. But that's irrelevant to the feat.

Flash couldn't go back in time in the early to mid 90's. Superman couldn't do it (And he still can't). So yeah, I think it's damned impressive for a DC character to display that level of speed.

leonidas

(a) i never commented on the 'impressiveness' of the feat, only it's relevance to this thread. (b) we'll disagree regardless. it's impressive in a sense that he reached that speed, sure. but if he can't control it, i don't see how it has any bearing on anything at all. did he learn to time travel by design later, or was that a one time accidental feat? if he did, then it's pretty impressive--still irrelevant in the sense that it would be utterly ooc for him to try blitzing at ftl speeds--but it would be more impressive were he shown to control the power.....

carver9

Originally posted by Golgo13
Not sure. Photon was able to get through his shields and she's about FTL. Supposedly, she has done this a few times.

Losing to Arthur Light isn't a low showing, considering what he has done. He can control ALL light. Even mystic based energy as well. I'd say he's about as skilled as Magneto, maybe even more so, because of his versatility. This is a guy who also took down Superman once, IIRC.

Even during the time she went pass his shields, she still couldn't stop him, especially with light based attacks. Magneto reactions fts are insane. He could more than likely counter just like he did against Spectrum and Northstar.

cdtm

Originally posted by leonidas
(a) i never commented on the 'impressiveness' of the feat, only it's relevance to this thread. (b) we'll disagree regardless. it's impressive in a sense that he reached that speed, sure. but if he can't control it, i don't see how it has any bearing on anything at all. did he learn to time travel by design later, or was that a one time accidental feat? if he did, then it's pretty impressive--still irrelevant in the sense that it would be utterly ooc for him to try blitzing at ftl speeds--but it would be more impressive were he shown to control the power.....

He repeated the feat two other times, until he finally got a message from himself in the future on how to hit his time.

He also traveled between star syetems under his own power.

He's not a GL, with a built in navigation system, nor does he have Flash's experience with navigating the time stream. But there's a world of difference between charging through someone at ftl speeds (Or blasting them), and navigating time and space at ftl speeds.

leonidas

so, that's cool, but still--are you telling me it would be in character for him to blitz someone at ftl speeds? because if you are, my next point would be to prove it, show him doing that to anyone. if you can't prove it, then, cool as it is (because i did not know he was that fast) it still has no bearing on this match...

Golgo13

Magneto besting Dazzler is cool and all, but she doesn't act and think at FTL speeds. Northstar isn't nearly as fast a Ray, so...

cdtm

Originally posted by leonidas
so, that's cool, but still--are you telling me it would be in character for him to blitz someone at ftl speeds? because if you are, my next point would be to prove it, show him doing that to anyone. if you can't prove it, then, cool as it is (because i did not know he was that fast) it still has no bearing on this match...

Are you asking for examples of him attacking, where it's explicately stated he's blitzing at ftl speeds?

Because they don't exist. I could show you examples of him moving at ftl, and I could show you examples of him charging at Superman (Who he thought was his father, messing with him) or blasting Triumph with way more force then necessary (Enough to make Triumph, who provoked him, admit he forgot just how powerful Ray is.)

I can prove he's basically a punk who doesn't know when to hold back, proving he won't hesitate to "shoot first", and hit hard.

But I can't prove he's specifically attacking at FTL speeds, no.

But Golgo has a point, can YOU prove whenever Magneto fends off a ftl capable character, that they're attacking at FTL speeds?

If the answer is no, then the weight of evidence goes against Magneto. The rules work to the benefit of speedsters, who rarely attack at their top speeds. The Ray's, while moving at his top speed, was able to see the light entity. He was able to maintain his position around the sun, instead of flying straight off the edge of it into space. His control is proven good enough to charge at Magneto while he's directly in front of him, without losing his sense of direction or missing his mark. Further, while he passed Earth's solar system when traveling at FTL speeds in space, he KNEW he missed his mark. He does have some ability to see what's happening at ftl speeds, even if his control isn't perfect.

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not arguing he can dance around him like Spidey can to Hulk. Only that in a quick draw scenario, he should have the upper hand in initiating first strike, and be capable of hitting his mark.

carver9

Originally posted by Golgo13
Magneto besting Dazzler is cool and all, but she doesn't act and think at FTL speeds. Northstar isn't nearly as fast a Ray, so...

Is he one shorting Eric?

Golgo13

Originally posted by carver9
Is he one shorting Eric?

Maybe at his best, but not on average. I could see this going either way, TBH. If what Zop said is true, Magneto is going to have a hard time taking him out for good, since Ray has reconstructed himself from being destroyed from Anti-Matter.

cdtm

Here's his fight with Lobo:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-13_zps2567455b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-14_zpsb751ee72.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-15_zps40c097bc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-16_zps47eae1c9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-17_zps9b52e48f.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-18_zps0524433b.jpg

cdtm

Continued:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-19_zpsbbb93888.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-20_zpsfde01e4b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-21_zps4e6820bb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-22_zps2e5a6d98.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-23_zps818eecea.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay08-24_zps5a97375a.jpg

leonidas

Originally posted by cdtm
Are you asking for examples of him attacking, where it's explicately stated he's blitzing at ftl speeds?

Because they don't exist. I could show you examples of him moving at ftl, and I could show you examples of him charging at Superman (Who he thought was his father, messing with him) or blasting Triumph with way more force then necessary (Enough to make Triumph, who provoked him, admit he forgot just how powerful Ray is.)

I can prove he's basically a punk who doesn't know when to hold back, proving he won't hesitate to "shoot first", and hit hard.

But I can't prove he's specifically attacking at FTL speeds, no.

But Golgo has a point, can YOU prove whenever Magneto fends off a ftl capable character, that they're attacking at FTL speeds?

If the answer is no, then the weight of evidence goes against Magneto. The rules work to the benefit of speedsters, who rarely attack at their top speeds. The Ray's, while moving at his top speed, was able to see the light entity. He was able to maintain his position around the sun, instead of flying straight off the edge of it into space. His control is proven good enough to charge at Magneto while he's directly in front of him, without losing his sense of direction or missing his mark. Further, while he passed Earth's solar system when traveling at FTL speeds in space, he KNEW he missed his mark. He does have some ability to see what's happening at ftl speeds, even if his control isn't perfect.

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not arguing he can dance around him like Spidey can to Hulk. Only that in a quick draw scenario, he should have the upper hand in initiating first strike, and be capable of hitting his mark.

well, bending lasers and energy attacks aren't susceptible to changes of speed. those types of attacks simply move at light speed.

even in that lobo fight (which was pretty cool) he was physical a great deal of time and lobo was able to grab him. all mags needs to do is raise a shield. in the entire history of comics no one has ko'd him before he could raise a shield.... and by your own statements, even if he somehow did harness all this speed, there's no guarantee he'd hit mags. i think it FAR more likely he'd attack at a speed he could control with certainty. imo mags would almost certainly have time to raise a shield, from there, it's simply a matter of who you think is the better manipulator. you've stressed at times his lack of training and discipline--those are skills mags has over almost anyone. maybe he loses a quickdraw but i think once the battle starts, mags skill, experience and feats all point towards him taking this match.

cdtm

Would the shield stop Ray's energy blast, though? (At "default" settings?)

I mean, he's supposed to be made of light. In theory, photonic attacks should slip through a transparent shield the same way sunlight does.

Existere

The shield protects him from Dazzler's attacks at 'default' settings.

Comics, I guess.

cdtm

Right, forgot about Dazzler. >_<

That settles that, then.

I'll see about putting up a few more scans, but I don't think there's much left that's going to change anyone's mind at this point. Ray simply doesn't have the history to compete against an X character like Magneto.

Guess the fight pretty much comes down to where you place Magneto's reactions/durability, against Ray's ability to survive Mag's em powers, just like it did before my scans...

abhilegend

Originally posted by leonidas
no chance he is high herald. i think low herald is pretty fair actually. he could reach mid i guess--the boundary between low and mid can be blurry.

also, accidentally going back in time is supposed to HELP his case....? shows a lack of control imo. abhi, do you have the dr polaris fight? can't recall if i've seen it. i think i remember one where he helped the jla, but i don't remember the details if that's one of them....
Unfortunately no. I don't have the scans of it. Originally posted by Existere
Magneto has a couple pretty ridiculous reaction feats, including seemingly raising his shields after Dazzler fires a light attack (iirc anyways, it's been a couple years since I read the whole scene).

He also has some ridiculous durability feats though, especially to energy attacks. I don't think it's utterly impossible for Ray to win this fight, but I do think that Magneto has the edge here, and should take a strong majority.
That dazzler scene was just an illusion.

Golgo13

Originally posted by cdtm
Right, forgot about Dazzler. >_<

That settles that, then.

I'll see about putting up a few more scans, but I don't think there's much left that's going to change anyone's mind at this point. Ray simply doesn't have the history to compete against an X character like Magneto.

Guess the fight pretty much comes down to where you place Magneto's reactions/durability, against Ray's ability to survive Mag's em powers, just like it did before my scans...

Yeah it depends on if Magneto can successfully take out a energy being on Ray's magnitude. What is Magnetos track record against something like that?

abhilegend

The dazzler scene was explicitly an illusion created by Jean.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14533837

zopzop

Just a comment on the scene with Magneto reacting to Northstar's attack. He caught him and claimed Northstar was "nowhere near as fast as his son." Which is 100% bullsh|t.

The writer was an idiot so take that into consideration when discussing whether Magneto would react in time to a light speed blitz from a herald level being (aka Ray).

cdtm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Unfortunately no. I don't have the scans of it.
That dazzler scene was just an illusion.

Is that so....

Found the Polaris scans:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-02_zpsf6f13c8f.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-03_zps0860f87c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-04_zps5043adaf.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-05_zps96d3cc23.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-09_zps168ee145.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-10_zps2bba4ecb.jpg

cdtm

Continued:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-11_zpsa1903209.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-12_zps720b1967.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-14_zps73f9892d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-15_zps84b9d19c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-16_zps0ff233d8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-17_zpsede0001c.jpg

I forgot about him performing laser surgery on part of Dr. Polaris's brain. That's some pretty serious control, right there, especially considering it's from the pre Priest mini, with no experience at all.

leonidas

yeah, that's cool. a fight with mags would be different than this went though--more of an energy struggle. meh, i think it safe to say that anyone who thought it would be easy one way or the other has been proven wrong. i'll still take mags though. and the dazzler scene was never a part of my own reasoning for his being able to counter ray. a lot also has to do with his ability to perceive energy in all its forms. some good stuff shown by you though. thumb up

maybe if i get some time tomorrow i'll revisit this and add some mags stuff. many of his feats are pretty well known, but it might be worth showing a couple just as a refresher for those following along.

abhilegend

Originally posted by cdtm
Continued:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-11_zpsa1903209.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-12_zps720b1967.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-14_zps73f9892d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-15_zps84b9d19c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-16_zps0ff233d8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay5of6-17_zpsede0001c.jpg

I forgot about him performing laser surgery on part of Dr. Polaris's brain. That's some pretty serious control, right there, especially considering it's from the pre Priest mini, with no experience at all.
That's good. I was talking about when Polaris was merged with his dad and Ray just blitzed the **** out of him.

carver9

Originally posted by zopzop
Just a comment on the scene with Magneto reacting to Northstar's attack. He caught him and claimed Northstar was "nowhere near as fast as his son." Which is 100% bullsh|t.

The writer was an idiot so take that into consideration when discussing whether Magneto would react in time to a light speed blitz from a herald level being (aka Ray).

Or the writer was speaking very highly of Quicksilver (Magneto has caught him as well).

beatboks

You know what to get this much strong discussion on the Ray (one of my favorite non magic characters) is a huge win IMO.

When I get home from work I might throw a few of his scans in myself, nicely done though cdtm

Golgo13

Originally posted by beatboks
You know what to get this much strong discussion on the Ray (one of my favorite non magic characters) is a huge win IMO.

When I get home from work I might throw a few of his scans in myself, nicely done though cdtm

thumb up

please do. The Ray is such an underrated character that people forget.

beatboks

Ray "the JLA's most powerful member"
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV176-Page16.jpg.html

Energy level "potentially" limitless (certaily more than JLA sensors could take)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/raysenergypotential.jpg.html
The reason Rot wanted ray
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV177-Page4.jpg.html
(again we see more of the hot head blast first and sort out the issue alter that cdtm mentioned)

then we have Ray drawing the energy back
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV177-Page19.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/ Raydrawslightfromoutsidetehdimensionafterdrawingal
lfromwithin.jpg.html

Ray learns a new trick even greater versatility
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV176-Page18.jpg.html

GL like constructs (couple of many)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf18-13.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf21-13.jpg.html

Despite being a hot head in battle Ray is far from stupid. computer hacker/programmer extraordinaire
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf19-20.jpg.html

So much so that an algorithm he wrote to control one of his light constructs ( built a light construct around a laptop) became self aware and his greatest enemy
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueTaskForce28-Page20.jpg.html

As for the argument if Ray blitzes in character, almost constantly
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf32-18.jpg.html
Nothing to state he's going light speed, but he isn't taking it easy. There are other examples where it's shown you can't "lock onto the guy" with target systems because of his speed.

basilisk

This is interesting. Been a long time since I saw the Ray.

On one hand, Magneto has some pretty impressive feats with his magnetic powers, and the Dr. Light incident where he controlled the Ray (don't remember it, but going on the other comments). So Mags might stand a good chance.

On the other hand we have a similar character like Photon bypassing his shields. Now in a different issue I remember Photon turning into neutrinos, not one of her normal powers and I'm not sure if it was a writer's error, but neutrinos could certainly go through magnetic fields unaffected.

I don't think Ray does neutrinos. But presumably like Photon he can do gamma rays, which are also unaffected by electromagnetism. So there's an option.

Ray also has the ridiculous speed on his side.

So, is Mags control over energy forms as good as Light's? Probably not because that's Lights thing. But is it good enough to overcome Ray, or can Ray uses speed or turn into something that Magnetic can't really affect?

Given Mag's longer history and more feats, maybe I'm inclined to give him a slight edge here. But from what I remember of Ray I think he can take some or even just stalemate.

cdtm

Originally posted by beatboks
Ray "the JLA's most powerful member"
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV176-Page16.jpg.html

Energy level "potentially" limitless (certaily more than JLA sensors could take)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/raysenergypotential.jpg.html
The reason Rot wanted ray
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV177-Page4.jpg.html
(again we see more of the hot head blast first and sort out the issue alter that cdtm mentioned)

then we have Ray drawing the energy back
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV177-Page19.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/ Raydrawslightfromoutsidetehdimensionafterdrawingal
lfromwithin.jpg.html

Ray learns a new trick even greater versatility
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueAmericaV176-Page18.jpg.html

GL like constructs (couple of many)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf18-13.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf21-13.jpg.html

Despite being a hot head in battle Ray is far from stupid. computer hacker/programmer extraordinaire
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf19-20.jpg.html

So much so that an algorithm he wrote to control one of his light constructs ( built a light construct around a laptop) became self aware and his greatest enemy
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/JusticeLeagueTaskForce28-Page20.jpg.html

As for the argument if Ray blitzes in character, almost constantly
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/The%20Ray/justiceleaguetf32-18.jpg.html
Nothing to state he's going light speed, but he isn't taking it easy. There are other examples where it's shown you can't "lock onto the guy" with target systems because of his speed.

Rock and roll. thumb up

Some might argue this next one is not completely relevant, because it deals with a future version of Ray, who became a heartless corporatist Gordon Gekko type by working for Vandal Savage, and eventually beating him in a hostile takeover.

DC time travel doesn't work like Marvel does, which is why some take future Orion's feat of resetting the universe in Rock of Ages as canon. Take this how you will:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay26-06_zpse9c21e97.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay26-07_zps4844c012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/TheRay26-08_zpsb0701c95.jpg

Existere

This is awesome. You guys should definitely throw together a respect thread for Ray.

beatboks

Originally posted by Existere
This is awesome. You guys should definitely throw together a respect thread for Ray.

He's certainly deserving of one and way underrated. I'll do my part but I was actually surprised how few scans I had in my Ray scan folder ( especially considering how many times I used him in tourneys on other sites).

ATM I can't really scan a lot more. Down to a couple hundred MB on my desktop storage and badly in need of cleaning it up. Despite addin a 1tb internal drive to the 750 gb it came with. What you get for using the damn thing as a media server for the house with a few wi fi and networking media players drawing movies, tv shows and music direct from it.

Delta1938

Originally posted by beatboks
He's certainly deserving of one and way underrated. I'll do my part but I was actually surprised how few scans I had in my Ray scan folder ( especially considering how many times I used him in tourneys on other sites).

ATM I can't really scan a lot more. Down to a couple hundred MB on my desktop storage and badly in need of cleaning it up. Despite addin a 1tb internal drive to the 750 gb it came with. What you get for using the damn thing as a media server for the house with a few wi fi and networking media players drawing movies, tv shows and music direct from it.

I don't have his mini or solo series(unfortunately), but have all of JUSTICE LEAGUE TASK FORCE and I think all the JUSTICE LEAGUE AMERICA comics and would be willing to help if you'd want.

Golgo13

TheHulk

Originally posted by leonidas
that's a fair enuff assessment. but, while gamma rays may not be affected by magnetism, it IS part of the em spectrum, and as such, within the scope of mags' power to control.

here are a few scans to show some different things (just so people don't think we mags' people were talking out of our arses):

affects STONE by manipulating the iron atoms in it demonstrating atomic levels of control:

http://i.imgur.com/GNqAhh0.jpg

a cool feat--slices his way through the earth's em field:

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/30027/535118-magcutsaswath8vm.jpg

if ray DID go solid, it would be interesting to see what he would do if mags simply tried something like this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/47999/1113829-magripsapartneo7do.jpg

surely it would count as a forum win at the least....

here again he shows control over the em spectrum by rendering himself invisible and practically undetectable--even by black bolt:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/58698/1113503-visionandthescarletwitcjo3.png

here is the dazzler illusion--thing here is, even though it's illusion, dazzler admits that she KNEW mags would shield against her...so i don't think it illogical to assume this is what would have happened.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/58698/1113505-magcontrolsphotons0ki.png

more atomic control--very impressive, considering this was NOT metal:

http://i.imgur.com/ZR0rv1B.jpg

i could show the whole fight against phoenix as well, which would show ludicrous durability if anyone wants to see it. here he reacts to northstar who moves at 99.999% of light speed and a couple others, courtesy of phil:

i could post some scans with statements regarding his power level, but statements only mean so much. in general, everyone knows he is among the most powerful of all mutants. if he decided to go invisible (he's actually used it a couple times), that would also give him a helpful edge.

anyway, there are many more scans i could show for mags. his history is sooo long. i've learned a lot about ray in this thread though, but i still give the win to mags because of experience and overall skill/control. keep posting ray stuff though and if i get the chance i can try adding more for mags. Magneto is stated to be alpha level ain't he? Their is some proof that he is also omega...i think it has something to do with his clone...

carver9

Naah, he's always been an Omega level mutant. I thought that statement was only referred too by mutants but they are calling Hulk Omega level as well. So I don't know what that means anymore tbh. Well, in the Marvel Universe j dont.

TheHulk

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, he's always been an Omega level mutant. I thought that statement was only referred too by mutants but they are calling Hulk Omega level as well. So I don't know what that means anymore tbh. Well, in the Marvel Universe j dont. Omega level mutant needs to have abilities that contain unlimited power. Mags powers covers the entire EM spectrum and can do a lot of crazy shit with it. But it ends there so that is why people still classify him as an alpha level mutant.

Hulk is an omega level threat. Their is a difference between calling a threat and classifying a mutant abilities.

krisblaze

^How are you two still unclear on some of the more basic terms used by Marvel?

TheHulk

Originally posted by krisblaze
^How are you two still unclear on some of the more basic terms used by Marvel? I'm clear.....i'm just ain't the best explaining it.

krisblaze

Originally posted by TheHulk
I'm clear.....i'm just ain't the best explaining it.

Okay, because Omega has nothing to do with scope of power, only potential.

TheHulk

Originally posted by krisblaze
Okay, because Omega has nothing to do with scope of power, only potential. True and i know. I guess didn't explain that part well.

Existere

Also, Magneto's not an Omega level mutant, unless something has changed in recent years.

cdtm

Originally posted by krisblaze
Okay, because Omega has nothing to do with scope of power, only potential.

The problem is, they added Cable and Franklin to the "Alpha" category, when both guys are arguably two of the most powerful mutants on potential.

leonidas

Originally posted by Existere
Also, Magneto's not an Omega level mutant, unless something has changed in recent years.

nope, that has not changed. that doesn't mean alpha mutants like xavier and magneto can't beat omegas though.

carver9

Originally posted by TheHulk
Omega level mutant needs to have abilities that contain unlimited power. Mags powers covers the entire EM spectrum and can do a lot of crazy shit with it. But it ends there so that is why people still classify him as an alpha level mutant.

Hulk is an omega level threat. Their is a difference between calling a threat and classifying a mutant abilities.

Magneto powers doesn't just stop at Earth though. He can pull energy from the planet's in the solar system.

Gotcha...Omega level threat and Omega level classifications are two different things.

abhilegend

Why would alpha or omega matter here? Ray has dealt with better energy manipulators than Magneto and he has crazy power output.

Combine it with his speed and it's a wrap up. I don't know why grabbing Northstar is hyped that much. In the very same series he was maxing at Mach 10 IIRC.

cdtm

Oh yeah, Ray's much faster then Northstar... in straight line movement speed.

His reflex's are a different story. Future Bart Allen proved they're not on his level, and there's the fact Ray had to keep slowing down to adjust his course for interstellar travel.

But straight line works just fine for his usual MO of charging through someone, or blasting them.

abhilegend

Originally posted by cdtm
Oh yeah, Ray's much faster then Northstar... in straight line movement speed.

His reflex's are a different story. Future Bart Allen proved they're not on his level, and there's the fact Ray had to keep slowing down to adjust his course for interstellar travel.

But straight line works just fine for his usual MO of charging through someone, or blasting them.
How much interstellar distance he covered anyway? I recall it was a solar system.

cdtm

Originally posted by abhilegend
How much interstellar distance he covered anyway? I recall it was a solar system.

All we get from Lobo's directions are "Hang a left at sector VI, then I grab the first black hole on the left".

So, a few system's, maybe? How close is the nearest black hole?

abhilegend

No idea actually.

complexbrother

MAGS

-K-M-

Originally posted by carver9
Don't think speed is the issue here. Not only has Mags flown the speed of light but he has also grabbed a blitzing Northstar like nothing.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113932/3456395-8681486931-Magne.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113932/3456397-3628870967-Magne.jpg

Good for him, but he caught northstar who wasn't serious or near his top speed. What happened when he got serious? He instantly tagged Magneto and flew into space to save Paulie. Why didn't Magento grab him there? hmmmmm?

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/mangeto%20northstar_zpsxnazvqsi.png

Northstar also went escape velocity, which is nothing QS at the time was capable of so that comment is way off him being slower.

In summary, Northstar was clearly going much slower then usual which allowed magneto to grab him. Heck, Sasquatch has caught Northstar that mean Walter has FTL reflexes too?

Originally posted by zopzop
Just a comment on the scene with Magneto reacting to Northstar's attack. He caught him and claimed Northstar was "nowhere near as fast as his son." Which is 100% bullsh|t.

The writer was an idiot so take that into consideration when discussing whether Magneto would react in time to a light speed blitz from a herald level being (aka Ray).

thumb up

Well at that time Northstar couldn't go lightspeed. So the point is moot. When serious he had no troubles tagging Magneto and flew off into space to save paulie.

cdtm

Originally posted by abhilegend
No idea actually.

http://www.space.com/7678-black-hole-closer-earth-thought.html

Since the feat happened with a 1994 understanding of astronomy, can we say it was around 14,000-16,000 light years? eek!

Golgo13

Originally posted by -K-M-
Good for him, but he caught northstar who wasn't serious or near his top speed. What happened when he got serious? He instantly tagged Magneto and flew into space to save Paulie. Why didn't Magento grab him there? hmmmmm?

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/mangeto%20northstar_zpsxnazvqsi.png

Northstar also went escape velocity, which is nothing QS at the time was capable of so that comment is way off him being slower.

In summary, Northstar was clearly going much slower then usual which allowed magneto to grab him. Heck, Sasquatch has caught Northstar that mean Walter has FTL reflexes too?

thumb up

Well at that time Northstar couldn't go lightspeed. So the point is moot. When serious he had no troubles tagging Magneto and flew off into space to save paulie.

He wasn't serious? Not seeing Magneto doing anything to Ray now. Especially since he's much faster.

TheHulk

Originally posted by Existere
Also, Magneto's not an Omega level mutant, unless something has changed in recent years.

Originally posted by leonidas
nope, that has not changed. that doesn't mean alpha mutants like xavier and magneto can't beat omegas though.

I remember it was just a theory. Magneto's clone Joseph was stated to possibly have unlimited power or potential and Mags and Joseph had no difference, only the other had better use of his power....blah can't remember the details.

krisblaze

Originally posted by cdtm
The problem is, they added Cable and Franklin to the "Alpha" category, when both guys are arguably two of the most powerful mutants on potential.

Yeah but power has nothing to do with it. MJJ is in the Alpha category.

TheHulk

Originally posted by krisblaze
Yeah but power has nothing to do with it. MJJ is in the Alpha category. Seriously? Who is omega level then? If Franklin, Cable and MJJ aren't classified as Omega then i don't know what one is.

leonidas

Originally posted by Golgo13
He wasn't serious? Not seeing Magneto doing anything to Ray now. Especially since he's much faster.

the fact that northstar was only doing....mach 10 or whatever is STILL pretty amazing, as he was trying to zip around. the only thing mags needs to do is raise a shield, not grab him like he did northstar--though lobo certainly had no troubles, multiple times. so, not sure why you're so convinced of....anything really. cdtm already said it's straight line motion. once the battle starts and mags has a shield his speed is nerfed anyway.

cdtm--any combat speed feats you're aware of for ray?

-K-M-

Originally posted by leonidas
the fact that northstar was only doing....mach 10 or whatever is STILL pretty amazing, as he was trying to zip around. the only thing mags needs to do is raise a shield, not grab him like he did northstar-

I would argue he was going much slower then Mach 10. As isotope e quicksilver who at the time was Mach 10 and magneto said he was much faster then Northstar.

Also northstars punches have hurt hulk, sasquatch and the completly invulnerable Paulie who magneto couldnt hurt in the same story yet easily takes those hits? I'd argue his shields were up.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/UXM392_16.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/UXM392_17.jpg