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Ra's al ghul from arrow
Captain America from Avengers Captain America and The winter soldier

Ra's gets beat down.

Cap wins.

Ra's does not lose, lol

Originally posted by Based
Ra's does not lose, lol

You're right, because the beating Cap will put on him goes far beyond simply losing.

True, saying he loses would imply that Ra's was in a fight, this is more Cap delivering a massive beat down.

Ra's is far more skilled than Cap
But Cap has super strength

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Ra's is far more skilled than Cap
But Cap has super strength

He's skilled, but Cap is also highly skilled. Not on Ra's level, but skilled enough that combined with his superhuman stats(speed/agility/strength/durability) he can overcome Ra's who is still simply just a human.

Ra's unarmed toyed with green arrow and he used groups of the worlds deadliest assassins as practice

Green Arrow is also highly skilled and yet he was laughable against Ra's. Cap isn't more skilled than Green. He needs his superhuman feats to even compete

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Green Arrow is also highly skilled and yet he was laughable against Ra's. Cap isn't more skilled than Green. He needs his superhuman feats to even compete

Green Arrow is also completely human.

Cap is far beyond that and highly skilled in his own right as he fought Winter Soldier who is one of the best assassins in the world and was similarly enhanced.

Ra's needs his immortality to even be relevant as he's 78 in Arrow. Without it he'd be a decrepit old man so it's the same as Cap needing his powers.

But you made this thread, no need to get vicious against the guy you put in it.


Cap wins.

facepalm

We've never even seen Ra's pushed anywhere past comfortable, and he stomped the holy hell out of Arrow.

We haven't seen much unarmed murder from him, so he's currently featless. I'd have to give it to Cap.

If it was full gear though, Ra's would stomp.

Originally posted by KingD19
You're right, because the beating Cap will put on him goes far beyond simply losing.

Arrow kept up with Barry's movements, tanked his punches and even laid out a hit. And that same person got completely shit stomped by Ra's.

And where is this "completely human" argument go when Batman is the topic? No one ever says this.

Originally posted by KingD19
Green Arrow is also completely human.

Cap is far beyond that and highly skilled in his own right as he fought Winter Soldier who is one of the best assassins in the world and was similarly enhanced.

Ra's needs his immortality to even be relevant as he's 78 in Arrow. Without it he'd be a decrepit old man so it's the same as Cap needing his powers.

But you made this thread, no need to get vicious against the guy you put in it.


Cap wins.

You can tell that he realizes that Cap would win, otherwise he wouldn't be so mad.

Originally posted by Based
Arrow kept up with Barry's movements, tanked his punches and even laid out a hit. And that same person got completely shit stomped by Ra's.

And where is this "completely human" argument go when Batman is the topic? No one ever says this.

When Barry turned bad he laid the hurt on Ollie and he couldn't do a thing about it. And CW Flashes hits aren't all that hard. Plenty of people with no durability whatsoever have taken his hits without issue.

Do you mean Christian Bale Batman? Because he's absolutely completely human.

Originally posted by KingD19


He'd also get destroyed by Cap in a HTH fight.

Originally posted by Silent Master
He'd also get destroyed by Cap in a HTH fight.

I believe there was a thread where the point was made that Cap could easily take on Baleman and Bane and beat both of them like red-headed stepchildren.

Cap stomps.

Originally posted by KingD19
I believe there was a thread where the point was made that Cap could easily take on Baleman and Bane and beat both of them like red-headed stepchildren.

I think thats one I made, where Cap was pitting against not just Batman and Bane, but Ras Al Ghul, Catwoman, Two Face and the Joker, and the fight was at night in Gotham, and most everyone here Still believed Cap would beat them. Not me, but I was in the solid minority there.

this is a good fight but I think Caps superior stats would get him the W here, he'd know he was in a fight though thats for sure

Originally posted by relentless1
this is a good fight but I think Caps superior stats would get him the W here, he'd know he was in a fight though thats for sure Yup, his knuckles would be ****ed.

thread belongs in the toilet, Cap shitstomps, curbstomps, etc

I havent seen the last episode of Arrow, but from previous episodes we just havent seen enough of what Ras can do to accurately compare him to all that were seen Cap do.

Spite, Capt stomps badly.

you Marvel zombies are a hoot...you really think that Cap will just walk all over Ras? the ONLY thing that Cap has in this fight going for him is his raw physical stats, Ras from arrow is a dad to Steve in the realm of skills and if it wasn't for Caps superior physicality he'd get smaaashed

Originally posted by relentless1
you Marvel zombies are a hoot...you really think that Cap will just walk all over Ras? the ONLY thing that Cap has in this fight going for him is his raw physical stats, Ras from arrow is a dad to Steve in the realm of skills and if it wasn't for Caps superior physicality he'd get smaaashed

And if Ra's wasn't immortal he'd be in a retirement home suffering from senility and a bad hip. They both need their abilities so what's your point?

Originally posted by KingD19
And if Ra's wasn't immortal he'd be in a retirement home suffering from senility and a bad hip. They both need their abilities so what's your point?

Check out all his posts that involve a member of the batfamily, he is a massive fanboy.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Check out all his posts that involve a member of the batfamily, he is a massive fanboy.

So it's pot calling the kettle black. Figures.

please, I vote for Marvel guys when I think they can win...I just voted for Cap here but you braindead spammers dont bring that up, what I'm saying is is that it won't be an easy win for Cap and if you really think that Cap will just steamroll Ras then you're not thinking objectively.

I am not vicious against Cap. I was trying to state that the disparity between skill is massive so Cap needs the boost of his stats to fight this guy. Remember at the beggining of WS. Cap fought that guy on the boat and had some trouble. Ra's would give Cap the arrow treatment if Cap wasn't super human. But since Cap is super human it could go either way

Cap didn't have any real trouble with him, the second Cap got serious the fight was over. Why aren't you using Cap's fight with WS or Loki or the Spec Ops guys in the elevator?

Loki isn't a super crazy martial artist and Cap threw like 2 punches before it was interrupted by iron man. Sw is impressive but he hasn't trashed a well established martial artist like Ra's did. And Cap had trouble taking the guys in the elevator. He simply isn't as skilled as Ra's. Not even close. But he has the physical stats to close the gap

I'd like to see you prove that Ra's could do even 1/5th as well against that many spec ops soldiers while in an enclosed space and with one arm in a magnetic cuff.

Every time you bring up Cap's stats. I'm gonna bring up the fact that Ra's is 78 years old and is according to a direct interview functionally immortal. If not for his immortality he'd be in a nursing home.

Also Bucky at the time Cap fought him was pretty much one of if not the top assassin in the world. And shown by their fight, they're both pretty damned skilled and capable of moving at speeds faster than Ra's and Ollie. Hitting harder, etc...

Even against Batroc like SM pointed out, as soon as he realized he wasn't a pushover and got serious, he ended the fight instantly.

So let's not act like he fought a featless wonder.

King. The fact that he is 78 doesn't matter because he is in a much younger body. Unless he is going to age 20 years in the span of a fist fight then his actual age shouldn't matter. He could be 1000 years old but as long as he isn't in the body of a 1000/year old it has no bearing on the fight

Originally posted by WildBantha88
King. The fact that he is 78 doesn't matter because he is in a much younger body. Unless he is going to age 20 years in the span of a fist fight then his actual age shouldn't matter. He could be 1000 years old but as long as he isn't in the body of a 1000/year old it has no bearing on the fight

You guys keep saying, "If Cap didn't have the SSS, he wouldn't even last in this fight." Over and over.

I'm pointing out how "If Ra's wasn't immortal(as it directly stated by his actor Matt Nable), he'd be a 78 year old man in a 78 year old man's body. (78 is the youngest possible age. He could actually be older)

You see what I'm getting at?

It doesn't matter because that's what their characters are. Cap is Cap because of the Serum. Ra's is Ra's because his immortality let him gain all those skills. But the Ra's side keeps bringing up how Cap can only hang because of the serum, so I'm gonna keep bringing up how Ra's can only hang because he's immortal.

Cap still wins by the way. Highly skilled and physical stats far beyond Ra's make it Cap's fight to lose.

So where is the proof that Ra's could replicate Cap's feats?

Originally posted by KingD19
You guys keep saying, "If Cap didn't have the SSS, he wouldn't even last in this fight." Over and over.

I'm pointing out how "If Ra's wasn't immortal(as it directly stated by his actor Matt Nable), he'd be a 78 year old man in a 78 year old man's body. (78 is the youngest possible age. He could actually be older)

You see what I'm getting at?

It doesn't matter because that's what their characters are. Cap is Cap because of the Serum. Ra's is Ra's because his immortality let him gain all those skills. But the Ra's side keeps bringing up how Cap can only hang because of the serum, so I'm gonna keep bringing up how Ra's can only hang because he's immortal.

Cap still wins by the way. Highly skilled and physical stats far beyond Ra's make it Cap's fight to lose. The immortality doesn't factor into Ra's skill set. It just brings him back to life and deages him if he is to die. It doesn't give him super speed/strength, greater agility, greater fighting skills, or anything.

Caps ability to fight is completely dependent on his SSS.

Your comparison kind of falls flat because of that.

That said, I agree. Why are people bringing up cap pre-SSS?

Originally posted by Arachnid1
The immortality doesn't factor into Ra's skill set. It just brings him back to life and deages him if he is to die. It doesn't give him super speed/strength, greater agility, greater fighting skills, or anything.

Caps ability to fight is completely dependent on his SSS.

Your comparison kind of falls flat because of that.



It factors into his ability to fight. A 78 year old man or older in an appropriately aged body will not be in anything near fighting shape. He'll be lucky to be able to walk normal speed at that age.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
The immortality doesn't factor into Ra's skill set. It just brings him back to life and deages him if he is to die. It doesn't give him super speed/strength, greater agility, greater fighting skills, or anything.

Caps ability to fight is completely dependent on his SSS.

Your comparison kind of falls flat because of that.

That said, I agree. Why are people bringing up cap pre-SSS?

You don't think being in a normal 78 year old body would effect Ra's ability to fight?

I wonder how the fight would go if it was Ra's in his 78 yr old body vs. Asthmatic 5 foot steve rogers.

Pre-SSS Steve was doing a decent job of making it through boot camp.

Originally posted by KingD19
It factors into his ability to fight. A 78 year old man or older in an appropriately aged body will not be in anything near fighting shape. He'll be lucky to be able to walk normal speed at that age.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You don't think being in a normal 78 year old body would effect Ra's ability to fight? Maybe, maybe not.

http://www.vyperlook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Jeffry-Life-fountain-of-youth4.jpg

And if you guys want to go that route, Ra's never said he used the Lazarus Pit. The pit hasn't even shown up in the show yet, so as far as we know, Ra's is just a really skilled 78 year old.

the fact that he's immortal has no bearing on his fighting style, the fact that the serum amps caps physical stats has a DIRECT relation to how he fights so try another way to be a smartass. I don't even know why we are arguing; we all agree that Cap wins, you all just seem to think Cap wins so easily. Think of a martial arts style like wing chun; invented by a woman to effectively take out those that are physically stronger than them, that is how a fight between Ras and Cap would go; Ras would use his superior skill to hurt Cap until Cap catches him and wallops him. So, to reiterate, Cap wins but by no means is it a walk in the park for him, in fact the fight would be more even than you think.

Originally posted by KingD19
It factors into his ability to fight. A 78 year old man or older in an appropriately aged body will not be in anything near fighting shape. He'll be lucky to be able to walk normal speed at that age. you don't get it that because he is in a younger body his age doesn't factor in. We bring up Caps super human abilities because it gives him a major edge in the fight.

Your point is mute because Ra's isn't in a 78 year old body, he is in a much younger one. No one else is discussing this because it doesn't give him an edge. Sure a 78 year old would have a harder time fighting but so would skinny ass no steroids cap. But that is not what we are discussing here

Ra's could use submission holds and pressure points to inflict damage on Cap. Cap just has alot harder striking power and durability. Cap doesn't have any fighting style that would phase Ra's. But Ra's has more than enough skill to phase Cap. The only question is if Ra's can effectively deal with Caps super human stats which as I stated he does have ways around it

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Ra's could use submission holds and pressure points to inflict damage on Cap. Cap just has alot harder striking power and durability. Cap doesn't have any fighting style that would phase Ra's. But Ra's has more than enough skill to phase Cap. The only question is if Ra's can effectively deal with Caps super human stats which as I stated he does have ways around it Getting punched in the face would phase Ras.

Yes. IF Cap can hit him. That is what I'm trying to say. Ra's knows how to deal with every fighting style Cap is bringing to the table. The problem will be Cap actually getting his hands on Ra's but once Cap does he will do a lot of damage. But h2h doesn't always goto the guy who packs the biggest wallop!

It goes to the guy who is better in literally every physical category by a large margin. i.e. Cap.

Unless Ra's is Karate Kid, him being more skilled doesn't change the fact that Cap is Army/SHIELD(meaning he's very skilled) trained and stronger, faster, more durable, etc...

Originally posted by KingD19
It goes to the guy who is better in literally every physical category by a large margin. i.e. Cap.

Unless Ra's is Karate Kid, him being more skilled doesn't change the fact that Cap is Army/SHIELD(meaning he's very skilled) trained and stronger, faster, more durable, etc... Cap is shield meaning he is skilled. Okay?? Ra's is the kingpin of the league of assassins meaning he is 20x more skilled

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Cap is shield meaning he is skilled. Okay?? Ra's is the kingpin of the league of assassins meaning he is 20x more skilled

If you look back I never claimed Cap is as skilled as Ra's. I said he is a trained Army soldier, and a trained SHIELD agent making him highly skilled in his own right.

Ra's being 20x more skilled means jack diddly when Cap moves faster than him, can tank all of his hits, and can literally send him flying with a single hit. Even a glancing hit will break his bones if Cap is trying.

Because even though Ra's is more skilled, his body isn't superhuman so he can't keep up with Cap actually putting in effort.

This is simple, how are you not getting it?

High End Skills + Superhuman Stats >>>> Higher Skill + Normal Stats

Would you favor Bruce Lee in a fight vs a US Marine who can punch people 15 feet through the air and easily survive a several hundred foot drop onto an aircraft carrier? And look at Cap clearing Batroc's ship in the beginning of Cap 2. He's more than skilled enough to take it to Ra's.

Cap wins.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Yes. IF Cap can hit him. That is what I'm trying to say. Ra's knows how to deal with every fighting style Cap is bringing to the table. The problem will be Cap actually getting his hands on Ra's but once Cap does he will do a lot of damage. But h2h doesn't always goto the guy who packs the biggest wallop!

You make it sound as if Cap is some slow moving brickhouse. He's not. The question here should be whether Ra's can actually hit Cap.

In a match with weapons (like swords, for example), skill counts for a lot more than it does in an h2h fight. I'd give Ra's the win over Cap in that kind of contest, because Cap hasn't shown any kind of skill or training with bladed weapons.

However, this is h2h, and physical stats play a huge factor here. Ra's is more skilled but that won't be enough. Fact is that Cap going all out would break Ra's' bones. It took repeated blows from Winter Soldier's metal arm to do any real notable superficial damage to a worn out, gunshot, stabbed and bleeding Cap, so Ra's is going to have a hell of a time hurting him.

If this was a weapons fight, wouldn't Cap have his shield rather than a sword?

I'd take Cap w/Shield over Ra's w/Sword 10/10.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If this was a weapons fight, wouldn't Cap have his shield rather than a sword?

Depends on the match stips. Last weapons match anyone made between these two was a sword fight. Cap is very prone to throwing his shield around though, which is a bad idea when facing a guy with a big sharp blade. Ra's showed great combat awareness as well when he fought 8 assassins at once, so I don't think he'd fall for the shield ricochet thing Cap sometimes does.

Basically, my view is that h2h goes to Cap, sword duel goes to Ra's, and Ra's with swords and Cap with his shield could be a toss up.

Originally posted by KingD19
I'd take Cap w/Shield over Ra's w/Sword 10/10.

I wouldn't. If Brock Rumlow can connect Cap with those stun batons multiple times, the world's oldest and most skilled assassin can tag him with swords. Not saying it would be easy, but it's a very likely outcome.

Sure, as long as Ra's has the help of 7 or 8 other soldiers and the fight takes place in a elevator....you know, like the scene where Brock managed it.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Yes. IF Cap can hit him. That is what I'm trying to say. Ra's knows how to deal with every fighting style Cap is bringing to the table. The problem will be Cap actually getting his hands on Ra's but once Cap does he will do a lot of damage. But h2h doesn't always goto the guy who packs the biggest wallop! Ra's will have a harder time hitting Cap than Cap will him.

Skill means nothing before vastly greater strength, speed, and toughness. The most skilled human couldn't hope to defeat a rhino with his bare hands. The same is true of Ra's vs. Cap.

Originally posted by Based
Arrow kept up with Barry's movements, tanked his punches and even laid out a hit.

To be fair, Barry is a moron when it comes to fighting.

If he had half a brain he wouldn't try to get the heat and cold guns to cross, he'd run in and punch the cr@p out of both of them before they knew he was there.

Also, he should carry a bat or something.

spike knucks at least, imagine Barry had Batmans belt and a killer instinct

oh man cmon guys... Ra's is skilled but he is in no way hurting cap long enough to beat him before cap either one shots him, shatters his jaw/ribs or just sends him flying. As another said, cap has tanked hits from a metal arm that was shattering concrete and ripping apart cars. If you believe ra's is hurting cap with blunt force you are mistaken.

Someone also said Ra's could submit cap....um yea naw. ANY hold he gets on cap will EASILY be pried open, and once cap has a grip on him its a wrap. IF this was a weapon fight it could go either way, but h2h is spite. Ra's cant put cap down no matter how skilled he is.

Lol Ra's gets one shotted.

Cap has plenty of feats to show his skill and strength. Ra's simply hasn't shown much yet. Based on what we have seen so far he is skilled, sure, but absolutely in no way whatsoever a threat to Cap. Perhaps once he has been featured a bit more and displayed more feats this will be a better argument, but as the majority the votes have shown, Cap takes this fairly comfortably.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Sure, as long as Ra's has the help of 7 or 8 other soldiers and the fight takes place in a elevator....you know, like the scene where Brock managed it.

Yeah, except all the other guys were floored and Cap had both his hands free at that point. I mean it's not like Ra's has fought similar numbers of skilled opponents while remaining in a similarly sized space before, dispatching them all far more quickly and easily... but I guess defeating members of a group of assassins who displayed enough skill to defeat a numerically superior group of superhumans is no longer impressive.

People do seem to like throwing out the "Just human" argument but forget that skilled humans in the Arrowverse often achieve feats that would be considered superhuman in the real world. 200mph arrow catches, just to name one example that occurs fairly frequently. People can research it if they want. No regular human, no matter how skilled, can perform arrow catches in the manner they do on the show. Some really skilled humans get lucky catching slower moving arrows, with blunt tips and from longer distances away, with preparation, but that's it. This would put any of the people in the show who can do those harder catches in the low superhuman category for reaction times and speed. And Ra's has been shown superior to virtually all of these people.

Now those things don't mean much in this fight. Like I said myself, in H2H Ra's doesn't have the strength to hurt Cap. But if you give Ra's a weapon that is actually capable of hurting Cap, it becomes a different story. So while some people still seem to insist that Cap stomps Ra's under any conditions, I am not one of them. I think a weapons much could go either way under most conditions, especially if both are in character.

Cap didn't remove the cuff until after the fight, so no, he didn't have both hands free at that point.


Not to mention that Cap was unarmed at that point and Brock had two stun batons.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Cap didn't remove the cuff until after the fight, so no, he didn't have both hands free at that point.


Not to mention that Cap was unarmed at that point and Brock had two stun batons.

He was capable of using both his hands while confronting Brock. He frees his arm using his legs, then does a flip off the wall, drops the last few no-name agents, and then faces Rumlow. He then blocks attempted strikes with both arms (but takes 2 hits in the process) and then smashes Rumlow into the ceiling with both arms again so, unless he has a third arm, he most certainly had both free.

And I never said Cap was armed there. But his opponent at the time isn't as skilled as the one in this thread (nor does he have the speed or reaction times), and a pair of swords has greater range and deadliness than a pair of stun batons. Point is that Cap is not guaranteed a 10/10, or even a majority, against Ra's if both get the weapon of their choice, at least not IMO.

Cap still stomps this fight though.

That was a magnetic cuff that seemed to cling to the wall of the elevator if he got too close to the sides. Not too unreasonable to theorize that it hindered his movement, IMO.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That was a magnetic cuff that seemed to cling to the wall of the elevator if he got too close to the sides. Not too unreasonable to theorize that it hindered his movement, IMO.

Could be speculated that it did affect him, but I highly doubt it did so to any notable degree, considering multiple Shield agents basically had to drag him towards the side of the elevator before the cuff showed any real effect.

But anyway, that's an argument for another day. Pretty sure the consensus here is that Ra's doesn't have a hope against Steve in H2H.

Pretty much a non-fight IMO. There hasn't been an un augmented human, that's even been able to hurt Cap. Skilled or not, Ra's doesn't have what it takes to win this at all.

Al Ghul with ease. DC Strong.

You're right, Ra's does lose with ease.

Why did I read through this?

Ra's is more skilled because he has no showings?

Cap didn't fight Bucky with a knife (bladed weapon)?

Cap got shot through a bus and walked away... No human is hurting him h2h without superpowers.

Cap probably wins, but the notion that Cap is as skilled is on the verge of laughable, he's not.

Who is saying that Cap is as skilled?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Cap probably wins, but the notion that Cap is as skilled is on the verge of laughable, he's not. What makes you say that?

Arrow

Well, Ra's is most certainly vastly more experienced. He was already around in 1854. Not that it matters in this particular fight.

?So in your opinion is Thor is more skilled than either of them?

Ra's is certainly a huge threat in the comic books, but so far he has demonstrated nothing in Arrow that would make Captain America do anything more than yawn. In fact, so far his feats don't even put him in the same class as Black Widow.

Agreed

Originally posted by Dreampanther
In fact, so far his feats don't even put him in the same class as Black Widow.

Don't be mad, maybe one day someone will post a thread where a DC street level character can win.

Should have put Neeson Gul. He has feat of never loosing to Batman. Putting him over bane.

But even then... c'mon, It's Captain America.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Arrow Nothing in Arrow showed Ras is vastly greater than Cap in skill.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Ra's is certainly a huge threat in the comic books, but so far he has demonstrated nothing in Arrow that would make Captain America do anything more than yawn. In fact, so far his feats don't even put him in the same class as Black Widow.

Eh... Effortlessly stomping GA puts him above BW. But yeah, Cap wins this.

Why? She beat up Renner and he would kill Ollie.

Great argument. Any reason to assume Hawkeye is superior to GA, especially in H2H combat? This is a guy who has, after all, taken on super powered opponents and won.

And Ra's absolutely stomped this guy. He didn't merely defeat him.

Hawkeyes fought an army of super powered aliens and Shield.

H2h he's literally only fought Widow, and she seems > human by the way she just flips around in the air beating up groups of people.

All of these characters are "> human" and have trashed fodder. BW is flashier than either of these two I'll give her that.

the bias on this forum against DC is staggering, Ras deeestroyed Ollie with our breaking a sweat, Hawkeye took out Chitauri with arrows, not h2h aside from hitting one and his fight with BW was very competitive until she used the environment to eek out a win also pro wrestlers do BW moves all the time, they are far from superhuman. I thought this site was supposed to be for comic book lovers to debate matches but all I see is an overwhelming presence of Marvel fanboys hating on DC, I love both companies and if you all were true fans you would too

One or two people saying that BW would beat Ra's isn't an example of a staggering level of bias.

Originally posted by relentless1
the bias on this forum against DC is staggering, Ras deeestroyed Ollie with our breaking a sweat, Hawkeye took out Chitauri with arrows, not h2h aside from hitting one and his fight with BW was very competitive until she used the environment to eek out a win also pro wrestlers do BW moves all the time, they are far from superhuman. I thought this site was supposed to be for comic book lovers to debate matches but all I see is an overwhelming presence of Marvel fanboys hating on DC, I love both companies and if you all were true fans you would too so you are biased. Makes more sense than everyone is biased.

Wrestling is worked, unless you think Batroc's groupies and the NotSkrulls were in storyline helping Widow.

i just mean in general on this site, and it doesnt matter if her opponents were working with her wrestling style or not what matters is regular humans can do those moves, thats the point i was making

Regular people can also do the moves Ra's uses, were you trying to make a point?

yeah, you're saying that she seems "> human by the way she just flips around in the air beating up groups of people"

to which i am responding with facts that regular humans are out there doing the stuff she's doing so its not enhanced or above human at all

Where did I say that she seems > human?

if i were to rank all of the people we have touched on here i would say that Cap >>> Ras >>> Arrow > Black Widow > Hawkeye, I'm sure there will be arguments against that but from what I've seen of these characters onscreen this is where they stand in any hand to hand scenario

sorry, that was pym that said it not you, but your arguing in his place, so my argument still stands

Except I'm not arguing in his place in regards to her seeming to be > human, so how exactly does your argument stand?

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
?So in your opinion is Thor is more skilled than either of them?

Exactly when did I say this, or anything even remotely like this? I said that Ra's is vastly more experienced than Cap. That being said, Ra's has been alive for over a 160 years, and has been the head of the League for nearly 7 decades at least. It would stand to reason that having over a century longer to practice his art, his skills are most likely more finely honed than Steve's. The fact that, as a "peak human" in Arrow, he was able to effortlessly defeat other individuals who have more than held their own against metahumans is also a testament to his skill level.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Why? She beat up Renner and he would kill Ollie.

BW and Hawkeye combined don't have the feats to match Oliver, at least not in h2h.

Ollie gets his ass kicked by Merlyn regularly, who got beaten up by Nyssa, who I would assume is below Ra's - not to mention Slade whooped Ollie's butt again on the island recently. In H2H Ollie is not really that good against skilled and trained opponents - he's really much better with his fancy bow and arrow.

From their onscreen feats Ollie should present no significant challenge to Black Widow.

Watching a fight between Nyssa and Black Widow might be fun to watch, though.

Chitauri were legit superhumans and HE and BW were mowing them down.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Exactly when did I say this, or anything even remotely like this? I said that Ra's is vastly more experienced than Cap. That being said, Ra's has been alive for over a 160 years, and has been the head of the League for nearly 7 decades at least. It would stand to reason that having over a century longer to practice his art, his skills are most likely more finely honed than Steve's. The fact that, as a "peak human" in Arrow, he was able to effortlessly defeat other individuals who have more than held their own against metahumans is also a testament to his skill level. you literally just restated when you said that... Experience =/= skill

Cap held his own against Loki who would steamroll the arrow verse and probably Flash's aswell (unsure if poison would effect Loki)

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
you literally just restated when you said that... Experience =/= skill

Cap held his own against Loki who would steamroll the arrow verse and probably Flash's aswell (unsure if poison would effect Loki)

You clearly lack the ability to comprehend English very well. At no point whatsoever do I say that more experience automatically means better skill. But disregarding the MASSIVE amount of extra time Ra's had to learn more, develop and hone his skills etc. is facepalm-worthy. More time does not automatically mean more skill. But when someone has literaly had lifetimes longer than another person to train and fight, they generally develop a more polished skill set. And that is ignoring the fact that he has made people, who themselves have held their own against superhumans, look like utter amateurs.

But then you claim that Hawkeye (who has no notable H2H against anyone of worth) would kill Arrow, so I really should not be surprised. The only thing Hawkeye has over Arrow, based on feats, is bow accuracy.

And Cap did not hold his own against Loki. His blows did no damage whatsoever and Loki casually tossed him around. And this was Loki who was not utilising any of his exotic powers and wanted to be taken captured to get onto the Helicarrier. Also, the notion that Loki could steamroll the entire Arrow/Flash verse on his own is laughable. He would never even come close to tagging guys like Reverse Flash.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You clearly lack the ability to comprehend English very well. At no point whatsoever do I say that more experience automatically means better skill. But disregarding the MASSIVE amount of extra time Ra's had to learn more, develop and hone his skills etc. is facepalm-worthy. More time does not automatically mean more skill. But when someone has literaly had lifetimes longer than another person to train and fight, they generally develop a more polished skill set. And that is ignoring the fact that he has made people, who themselves have held their own against superhumans, look like utter amateurs.

Sooo breaking it down. What you're saying is:
1) nowhere did you say more experience = more skill
BUT
2) we should not disregard experience.
BECAUSE
3) more experience = more polished skill (generally)

Sooo, you're saying more skill =/= more polished skill? I mean a lot of us would think having a more polished skillset makes one more skillful but that's just us...

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
But then you claim that Hawkeye (who has no notable H2H against anyone of worth) would kill Arrow, so I really should not be surprised. The only thing Hawkeye has over Arrow, based on feats, is bow accuracy.

He was mowing down (with difficulty) Chitauri in Avengers in H2H. Those were legit superhumans.

Well, you generally polish something in order to make it look better, so maybe he is saying that Ra's fighting skill looks better than it actually is, IE his skill looks like a 7 when it's actually a 4.

Originally posted by FrothByte
BW and Hawkeye combined don't have the feats to match Oliver, at least not in h2h.

Ollie on his own couldn't take Merlyn, who got a beating from Nyssa, who is basically DC's version of Black Widow at the moment.

Which means in H2H Ollie wouldn't stand a chance against Black Widow.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Ollie on his own couldn't take Merlyn, who got a beating from Nyssa, who is basically DC's version of Black Widow at the moment.

Which means in H2H Ollie wouldn't stand a chance against Black Widow. That was an inexperienced Ollie. He, Merlyn, and Nyssa were all fighting on equal footing.

On a serious note, Cap curbstomps. According to a recent interview of AOU, Cap will be swinging around motorcycles with one hand.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
That was an inexperienced Ollie. He, Merlyn, and Nyssa were all fighting on equal footing.

Not sure we're talking about the same scenes. I'm talking about the fact that Ollie has agreed to be trained by Merlyn in the last couple of episodes, meaning he acknowledges Merlyn as the better fighter, and Merlyn then got taken out by a fairly p!ssed Nyssa, while Merlyn was fighting for his life. Seems pretty clear that it's Nyssa at the top, followed by Merlyn and Ollie at the bottom (in H2H anyway).

Originally posted by playa1258
On a serious note, Cap curbstomps.

That seems to be the consensus by a fairly large margin. I don't think anyone has really put up an argument that could be taken seriously in favour of Ra's.

Yep, I was just saying I was trolling earlier.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Not sure we're talking about the same scenes. I'm talking about the fact that Ollie has agreed to be trained by Merlyn in the last couple of episodes, meaning he acknowledges Merlyn as the better fighter, and Merlyn then got taken out by a fairly p!ssed Nyssa, while Merlyn was fighting for his life. Seems pretty clear that it's Nyssa at the top, followed by Merlyn and Ollie at the bottom (in H2H anyway).

And yet Merlyn, Nyssa and Oliver all have more respectable h2h feats than BW and Hawkeye. These are guys who easily catch arrows out of the air.

I mean, what kind of h2h feats do BW and Hawkeye have that make you think they're better? Because they can beat fodder?

Superhumans...

What Superhumans? Chitauri?

Originally posted by FrothByte
What Superhumans? Chitauri?

Yes, the Chitauri were superhuman.

They were clinging themselves against the sides of buildings after falling hundreds of feet with grip strength alone and digging the stone out of the sides, and crumpling cars beneath them and not even slowing down.

every one of those Chitauri that were dropped by hawk or BW were done with weapons, not bare handed

Originally posted by relentless1
every one of those Chitauri that were dropped by hawk or BW were done with weapons, not bare handed

Because a regular person can just smack a Chitauri with a bow and knock it out?

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Not sure we're talking about the same scenes. I'm talking about the fact that Ollie has agreed to be trained by Merlyn in the last couple of episodes, meaning he acknowledges Merlyn as the better fighter, and Merlyn then got taken out by a fairly p!ssed Nyssa, while Merlyn was fighting for his life. Seems pretty clear that it's Nyssa at the top, followed by Merlyn and Ollie at the bottom (in H2H anyway). Ah, my mistake. I haven't seen the last 3 episodes yet. I thought you were taking about this scene where Ollie fights Nyssa on equal ground till Merlyn shows up and takes her out in 15 seconds. Then Ollie stops him from killing her in the split second after.

UckKvtto3LI

What were the circumstances in the episode you're talking about? The one I've seen is pretty fair with all 3 having their normal gear and being in top shape.

Originally posted by FrothByte
And yet Merlyn, Nyssa and Oliver all have more respectable h2h feats than BW and Hawkeye. These are guys who easily catch arrows out of the air.

I mean, what kind of h2h feats do BW and Hawkeye have that make you think they're better? Because they can beat fodder?

Uhm, this seems to be another misunderstanding - I have never once mentioned Hawkeye in this debate. As for feats: Since you are the one claiming M, N and O have more respectable H2H, the burden of proof is actually yours, but sure, I'll play this time.

Here are some of her more obvious feats:

- In IM2, BW takes out a dozen guards without one of them laying a finger on her.
- In Avengers, she takes out two soldiers and an officer, while tied to a chair and with her hands tied behind her back.
- She takes out Hawkeye who seems to have a fighting style similar to Ollie, while dodging the arrows he shoots at her.
- She takes on the Chitauri, trained alien soldiers with superhuman strength two or three at a time, dodging their blasts and using their own weapons against them.
- In Winter Soldier, she takes out two trained mercenaries similar to Slade without any significant difficulty.

*Shrug*

Ollie couldn't even beat a depowered Slade without help from his sister, and having to ask Merlyn to train him means he is not even close to Nyssa's skill, so I definitely don't think they are on the same level.

However, if you want to continue to debate it, start a separate thread with a poll for us to vote, and we'll see what everybody else thinks.

As for this thread, I think the result is pretty clear.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Ah, my mistake. I haven't seen the last 3 episodes yet. I thought you were taking about this scene where Ollie fights Nyssa on equal ground till Merlyn shows up and takes her out in 15 seconds. Then Ollie stops him from killing her in the split second after.

UckKvtto3LI

What were the circumstances in the episode you're talking about? The one I've seen is pretty fair with all 3 having their normal gear and being in top shape.

Ah, no worries - in that case I apologise for the confusion

I don't really want to spoil it for you - are you sure you want me to tell you what happens in the last couple of episodes? It's kind of essential to the plot, and I hate it when people spoil it for me. If you really want, I'll tell you, but I think you'll enjoy it more if you watch it yourself.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Ah, no worries - in that case I apologise for the confusion

I don't really want to spoil it for you - are you sure you want me to tell you what happens in the last couple of episodes? It's kind of essential to the plot, and I hate it when people spoil it for me. If you really want, I'll tell you, but I think you'll enjoy it more if you watch it yourself. Good point. I'd rather not get spoiled so I'll come back to this once I see it

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Good point. I'd rather not get spoiled so I'll come back to this once I see it

Cool - we'll continue this then, but maybe on another thread would be better.