Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Battle takes place on neutral ground

Wrath easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wrath easily.

I agree, Wrath dominates, though I will give backing to why I believe so. Wrath is known to take a beating and just as easily deal one out, where Fisto seems to just be more offensive. I believe that with the ability to do both offence and defense effectively gives him/her an edge.

Do we have any more on The Wrath? If not, I'm going with Fisto with difficulty.

Well he outduelled the Jedi's best lightsaber instructor and the greatest student he'd ever had at the same time as an apprentice. Defeated Marka Ragnos' pet Terentatek and one of the greatest Sith Overseers ever as an acolyte. Defeated a Jedi so powerful he was labelled a superweapon before he'd grown much more powerful by reaching enlightenment. Defeated 3 Dark Council members, one of which was one of the greatest Sith Assassins in history who was thought to be equal to any weapon the Empire had ever produced and another was Darth Baras. Resisted the Dread Masters mental influence solo. And defeated the Emperor's Voice after it had been possessed by the godlike Sel Makor, a being so powerful it was stated to be a threat to all life in the galaxy.

So he's pretty powerful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So he's pretty powerful.


Yeah, that's why I said Fisto with difficulty.

Fisto is powerful too, and has better combat feats and hype, IMO: credited as being a better duelist than Cin, being picked over him to arrest Sidious; referred to as one of the greatest lightsaber wielders in history by numerous characters; is at the top of his order, which was considered the prime of the jedi order, making his position a hard one to fill; slapped Grievous (who has consistently given jedi like Kenobi a struggle) around a bit; his force speed was such that it startled even Kenobi, who had witnessed beings like Darth Maul fight; has matched strength with the shark general on mon calamari, a beast who busted through a huge underwater tunnel with his head; has hurled big objects at great speed, despite being in underwater pressure; has casually lifted a giant capsule filled with liquid.

Fisto isn't going down easily, if at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he outduelled the Jedi's best lightsaber instructor and the greatest student he'd ever had at the same time as an apprentice. Defeated Marka Ragnos' pet Terentatek and one of the greatest Sith Overseers ever as an acolyte. Defeated a Jedi so powerful he was labelled a superweapon before he'd grown much more powerful by reaching enlightenment. Defeated 3 Dark Council members, one of which was one of the greatest Sith Assassins in history who was thought to be equal to any weapon the Empire had ever produced and another was Darth Baras. Resisted the Dread Masters mental influence solo. And defeated the Emperor's Voice after it had been possessed by the godlike Sel Makor, a being so powerful it was stated to be a threat to all life in the galaxy.

So he's pretty powerful.

What are his force feats Neph?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, that's why I said Fisto with difficulty.

Fisto is powerful too, and has better combat feats and hype, IMO:

Not even to close to the same degree.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
credited as being a better duelist than Cin,

Again, the Wrath beat the Jedi Order's best lightsaber instructor AND the best student the guy had ever had at the same time without breaking a sweat. As a mere apprentice a few months after training on Korriban.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
being picked over him to arrest Sidious;

Picked as the Emperor's Wrath. Picked to kill the Emperor's Voice. Picked to beat Baras. Picked for the Strike Team made up of the Empire's greatest champions.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
referred to as one of the greatest lightsaber wielders in history by numerous characters;

One of, if not the best warrior in the Swtor Sith Empire. Referred to as having "unstoppable might", with "unrivaled strength in battle" and lightsaber skill and "one of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy".

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
is at the top of his order, which was considered the prime of the jedi order, making his position a hard one to fill;

Oh jesus.

Bluh bluh and the Wrath was chosen out of millions of Sith as the best warrior in the Empire, which was considered a vast improvement over the Golden Age of the Sith bluh bluh bluh wank wank wank.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
slapped Grievous (who has consistently given jedi like Kenobi a struggle) around a bit;

Master Wyellett was literally considered a superweapon by the Republic before he spent 20 years communing with the Force and massively increasing in power. Not even to mention beating the Emperor's Voice, who was possessed by Sel Makor in the heart of his power. I'd put those above General Grievous any day. Especially considering that was Joke Grievous who is kind of shit.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
his force speed was such that it startled even Kenobi, who had witnessed beings like Darth Maul fight;

And then Fisto lost to Ventress, yeah.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
has matched strength with the shark general on mon calamari, a beast who busted through a huge underwater tunnel with his head;

Which would indicate how much momentum he can get while swimming, not his strength.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
has hurled big objects at great speed, despite being in underwater pressure; has casually lifted a giant capsule filled with liquid.

Yawn.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fisto isn't going down easily, if at all.

He'd get his ass handed to him almost as easily as Sidious did tbh.

Glad to see you back Sidious.

Originally posted by carthage
What are his force feats Neph?

No worse than Fisto's. He's killed with force pushes, ripped metal apart and thrown heavy objects. But he's also resisted the Dread Master's telepathy through his power in the Force. The same guys who can destroy fleets and extend their power across entire planets. A tiny fraction of one of the Dread Masters allowed an Esh-ka to obliterate a massive statue with TK. The Wraths also able to contain lightning into his blade and throw it at opponents, something that's supposed to be near impossible.

I never said he had worse force feats than Fisto, I asked what force feats he had.

I know.

He has a lot of minor (and some good) showings here:

dUydrvpExHI#t=341


Also I'd forgotten until now but as I recall it, amusingly one of the Wraths companions was indicated to have solo'd about a thousand republic troops at one point. Likely because no-one checked how big a battalion actually was, lol.

At 8:52 does he oneshot that one Jedi with the Golden lightsaber with TK along with those troops, or did he dodge it?

Other than that he's pretty good, moving faster than that one Jedi who charged him could react too at 7:29, deflecting multiple blaster bolts with one hand, killing that guy with a huge metal slab, and striking a Jedi with lightning before he could react are all good feats.

Not sure where to place him atm in terms of skill.

I checked and the Jedi is dead when you start the fight so he was one-shot with the troops.

The Warrior is similar to the Knight in that they don't do anything too fancy with the Force and mostly use it tactically and defensively.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, that's why I said Fisto with difficulty.

Fisto is powerful too, and has better combat feats and hype, IMO: credited as being a better duelist than Cin, being picked over him to arrest Sidious; referred to as one of the greatest lightsaber wielders in history by numerous characters; is at the top of his order, which was considered the prime of the jedi order, making his position a hard one to fill; slapped Grievous (who has consistently given jedi like Kenobi a struggle) around a bit; his force speed was such that it startled even Kenobi, who had witnessed beings like Darth Maul fight; has matched strength with the shark general on mon calamari, a beast who busted through a huge underwater tunnel with his head; has hurled big objects at great speed, despite being in underwater pressure; has casually lifted a giant capsule filled with liquid.

Fisto isn't going down easily, if at all.

I'd say he'd have problems with his power at the very least. I doubt speed would be an issue for Wrath, the guy more or less blitzed a Jedi that was charging him/killed a Jedi with lightning before he could deflect it. Fisto's best TK showing is moving a huge canister iirc, Wrath dropped a huge slab of ceiling and killed multiple troopers/a Jedi before he could react. He's clearly more powerful and his form could prove problematic for Shii Cho

Fisto might be more skilled, but the power edge goes to Wrath

Originally posted by carthage
Glad to see you back Sidious.


Thank you. I've been on here and there, just lost interest for a while.

I'm going to PM you in a bit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not even to close to the same degree.



Again, the Wrath beat the Jedi Order's best lightsaber instructor AND the best student the guy had ever had at the same time without breaking a sweat. As a mere apprentice a few months after training on Korriban.



Picked as the Emperor's Wrath. Picked to kill the Emperor's Voice. Picked to beat Baras. Picked for the Strike Team made up of the Empire's greatest champions.



One of, if not the best warrior in the Swtor Sith Empire. Referred to as having "unstoppable might", with "unrivaled strength in battle" and lightsaber skill and "one of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy".



Oh jesus.

Bluh bluh and the Wrath was chosen out of millions of Sith as the best warrior in the Empire, which was considered a vast improvement over the Golden Age of the Sith bluh bluh bluh wank wank wank.



Master Wyellett was literally considered a superweapon by the Republic before he spent 20 years communing with the Force and massively increasing in power. Not even to mention beating the Emperor's Voice, who was possessed by Sel Makor in the heart of his power. I'd put those above General Grievous any day. Especially considering that was Joke Grievous who is kind of shit.



And then Fisto lost to Ventress, yeah.



Which would indicate how much momentum he can get while swimming, not his strength.



Yawn.



He'd get his ass handed to him almost as easily as Sidious did tbh.


You started it.

I don't want any crying.

If you're gonna make a big deal out of this don't bother. I'm not getting into a slapfight with you again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you're gonna make a big deal out of this don't bother. I'm not getting into a slapfight with you again.


I have no control over how you react. It's just hard to disagree with you without you getting so angry. You start to lowball and mock certain characters, and when it's done back to the characters you argue in favor for, you act as if you're being victimized or trolled.

That's interesting because I feel the exact same way about you. I didn't even notice I was replying to you until your "You started it" reply and I was like "Oh shit now he's going to take it really personally and get really pissed off at me for disagreeing with him and thinking Kit's out of his league and completely jump down my throat over it uuuuuuurgh."

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's interesting because I feel the exact same way about you. I didn't even notice I was replying to you until your "You started it" reply and I was like "Oh shit now he's going to take it really personally and get really pissed off at me for disagreeing with him and thinking Kit's out of his league and completely jump down my throat over it uuuuuuurgh."


I have no problem with you believing Kit is way out of his league and that he'd be stomped. Thing is, you'd fail miserably in trying to prove it. Obviously you're the one with the problem with my post of not being overly impressed with The Wrath, which is why you were the first to respond and remind me that he's powerful, and reminded me of things we already discussed about him.

You also said Bane would incinerate someone like Maul. Did I jump on your case?

You're free to believe whatever you want.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not even to close to the same degree.


What makes it not close to the same degree? Your opinion?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, the Wrath beat the Jedi Order's best lightsaber instructor AND the best student the guy had ever had at the same time without breaking a sweat. As a mere apprentice a few months after training on Korriban.


And Fisto was besting Grievous pretty solidly, even giving Grievous a second shot at another round when he had the chance to finish him. And again, Grievous has consistently given the likes of Obi Wan a struggle, as well as numerous of other jedi masters, most of which have actual good feats and accolades.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Picked as the Emperor's Wrath. Picked to kill the Emperor's Voice. Picked to beat Baras. Picked for the Strike Team made up of the Empire's greatest champions.


Credited as being better than Cin, who is a master of all forms and also one of the greatest duelists in history. Picked for a strike team to arrest Sidious. Stated by various members of the jedi to be one of histories best.



Originally posted by Nephthys
One of, if not the best warrior in the Swtor Sith Empire. Referred to as having "unstoppable might", with "unrivaled strength in battle" and lightsaber skill and "one of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy".


Yeah, that's good. Again, that's why I said Fisto with difficulty. None of those statement have any bearing on Fisto, considering the very large gap in history between them. Fisto's quotes and accolades hold more weight, especially since he is one of the best in what is canonically known as being the jedi in it's prime. The quality of Fisto's status as being one of the best in his order, is hard to top.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh jesus.

Bluh bluh and the Wrath was chosen out of millions of Sith as the best warrior in the Empire, which was considered a vast improvement over the Golden Age of the Sith bluh bluh bluh wank wank wank.


I'm referring to the "prime" comment by Lucas, not the Golden age one. You've seen both.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Master Wyellett was literally considered a superweapon by the Republic before he spent 20 years communing with the Force and massively increasing in power. Not even to mention beating the Emperor's Voice, who was possessed by Sel Makor in the heart of his power. I'd put those above General Grievous any day. Especially considering that was Joke Grievous who is kind of shit.


There was some context behind his defeat of Sel Makor. It's not like he overpowered the actual spirit with his own power. He defeated a body that was possessed by it, and didn't give it time to even adjust to the body. Unless we are to assume he's greater than a godlike spirit and the power of the emperors voice combined. Seriously, what does that fight show us? The Wrath's saber skills, what? Tell me.

That "joke Grievous" has some actual impressive combat feats against impressive jedi. He's outskilled and physically overpowered some via physical strength. Kit's fight with Grievous shows us Fisto's ability with a saber.



Originally posted by Nephthys
And then Fisto lost to Ventress, yeah.


The text indicates the fight was intense and even until Ventress pierced his guard. While her advantage over him was small (analyzing his fighting style), even in a fight amongst equals, a small advantage can go a long way. Furthermore, Wrath's force feats and saber feats pale in comparison to Ventress's, so what exactly is your point?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Which would indicate how much momentum he can get while swimming, not his strength.


Are you referring to the shark general busting through the huge underwater tunnel? If so, that is true. However, it would still be a strength feat for Fisto, given that the same advantage would apply to the shark during their underwater fight; and the fact that Fisto's physical blows to the general's head had an affect on said general, despite his head being durable enough to bust through the tunnel without putting a scratch on him, shows how powerful Fisto's physical attacks are. Not to mention that to match the general in h2h combat, would require Fisto to have enough strength to fight off a beast who can propel himself with tremendous force.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He'd get his ass handed to him almost as easily as Sidious did tbh.


Ok, LeGenD. If that helps you to climax, I won't ruin it for you.

Fact is, even Ahsoka has better feats, especially in regards to TK than the Wrath. You wouldn't be able to prove he'd beat her, let alone one of the top dogs of her era.


Originally posted by Carthage
I'd say he'd have problems with his power at the very least. I doubt speed would be an issue for Wrath, the guy more or less blitzed a Jedi that was charging him/killed a Jedi with lightning before he could deflect it. Fisto's best TK showing is moving a huge canister iirc, Wrath dropped a huge slab of ceiling and killed multiple troopers/a Jedi before he could react. He's clearly more powerful and his form could prove problematic for Shii Cho


They are close in every area it seems

In the force, if we include his miniCW feats, Fisto trumps him in that TK; and given Fisto's reputation and rank in the order, I don't see why we shouldn't include them, considering they aren't overly exaggerated, and the fact that the creator of the series said he depicted the jedi as fully unleashing their powers in desperate situations (something along those lines). Regardless, even in TCW, Fisto hurled a speeder with the force as if launching it through thin air, despite being in underwater pressure. Also, Fisto's lifting of the huge liquid filled canister would indicate precision and strength in TK, considering how he casually lifted it and put it down carefully without trying to break it. The only real edge The Wrath has over Kit regarding force powers, is his range of abilities as is with most sith vs jedi.

BTW, if I were to use Neph's own logic regarding speed against him, then I wouldn't even have to list force feats. If power is the only key to one's speed, then Fisto is a beast by default since he is considered one of the greatest duelists in history. Exceptional speed would be a requirement, just as skill, especially in the context of a life or death duel, which is what the quotes about Fisto indicate, especially being was acknowledged as greater than Cin (who is considered a master of every form and among the best himself), and being picked to arrest Sidious.

Anywho, Wrath could likely win, but it will be an intense fight. I don't expect Neph to accept that, though.

You two are adorbz, tbh.

Probably Fisto in the end, but I don't think it'd be a perfect majority.

Decent fight anyway

Siding with Fisto atm.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I have no problem with you believing Kit is way out of his league and that he'd be stomped. Thing is, you'd fail miserably in trying to prove it. Obviously you're the one with the problem with my post of not being overly impressed with The Wrath, which is why you were the first to respond and remind me that he's powerful, and reminded me of things we already discussed about him.

You also said Bane would incinerate someone like Maul. Did I jump on your case?

You're free to believe whatever you want.

Um, you asked for more on the Wrath so I gave you a run down of his feats and showings. Not sure how that's me having a problem, like I said it didn't even register who I was talking to. But then you were like "You started this. Don't cry", which indicates some hostility or warning on your part.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, you asked for more on the Wrath so I gave you a run down of his feats and showings. Not sure how that's me having a problem, like I said it didn't even register who I was talking to. But then you were like "You started this. Don't cry", which indicates some hostility or warning on your part.


I asked for anything new. I know most of what you posted. His best feats are feats we already discussed in other debates.

When I made that comment, I was referring to your point by point reply to me, which was filled with sarcasm, some lowballing, and insinuating that I'm wanking Fisto. Like I said, when it's done back to you, you get overly angry and act as if you're going to ignore my posts, just to do it all over again. At least I respect you enough to let you know so you won't act clueless and victimized.

Again, I didn't know it was you. So I didn't know that you already knew all that shit.

I thought you were referring to my first reply to you, since you mentioned me reminding you he's powerful. Which was what my first reply did. And I do think you're wanking Fisto by suggesting he's on par with the Wrath tbh. He really should be decidedly below beings of the Wrath's caliber. He's just a Council member.

I think you've gotten the impression I feel victimised by you or that I get angry with you. But the truth of why I prefer to avoid you is simply because discussions with you are unpleasant and I'm here to have fun. So when you were constantly jumping on me for shit I just decided not to bother anymore. You're the one who felt victimised by my terrible double standards and got super angry with me. So that's why I decided to just be chill and not start anything with you again because all that bickering became lame as balls.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What makes it not close to the same degree? Your opinion?

The evidence? Sorry bro, but Kit Fisto isn't on the same level as the Emperor's Wrath. One's one of the greatest Sith ever who resists godlike beings like Sel Makor and the Dread Masters and the other is an above average Council member. Fisto certainly isn't powerful or skilled enough to literally be considered a superweapon before he vastly improves in power. Personally I boggle at how a Jedi even gets that accolade without being at crazypants levels. And then gets much MORE POWERFUL??? o_O

And the Wrath can beat that guy in Act II. And you think Ahsoka > ? You can see why I think you're really, really selling Swtor short here I hope.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And Fisto was besting Grievous pretty solidly, even giving Grievous a second shot at another round when he had the chance to finish him. And again, Grievous has consistently given the likes of Obi Wan a struggle, as well as numerous of other jedi masters, most of which have actual good feats and accolades.

Well he did use TK to get the upper hand. As most of GG's opponents do. Early Grievous really isn't a stellar combatant though. He's certainly not as good as he is later on. He did have to cheat to beat Vebb. And Fisto does have an advantage with Shii-Cho and his flexibility. Still, it is a very good feat. It's just not good enough to suggest parity with the Wrath. He'd beat GG as well.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Credited as being better than Cin, who is a master of all forms and also one of the greatest duelists in history.

Come on. We both know the Wrath would curbstomp Drallig. Let's just get that out of they way, ok?

TBH I'm not even sure Drallig could have killed the Beast of Marka Ragnos with a training saber like acolyte Wrath did. Terentateks are known to slaughter even groups of highly powerful Jedi, are they not? Or maybe I'm just selling Cin short.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Picked for a strike team to arrest Sidious.

Which doesn't indicate as much as you seem to think. At the time the only impressive Jedi on the planet were the B team, Anakin, Shaak Ti and Drallig. Mace distrusted Anakin and Shaak Ti was chosen to guard the temple, so the only thing we can ascertain with Kit being picked is that he's > ol' Drallig again.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Stated by various members of the jedi to be one of histories best.

Which is pretty vague and hyperbolic and not really all that useful as evidence for his skills.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, that's good. Again, that's why I said Fisto with difficulty. None of those statement have any bearing on Fisto, considering the very large gap in history between them. Fisto's quotes and accolades hold more weight, especially since he is one of the best in what is canonically known as being the jedi in it's prime. The quality of Fisto's status as being one of the best in his order, is hard to top.

And I simply don't see it man. What accolades and quotes? Being one of the best duelists in history and being > Drallig? Wrath is basically in the top 3-5 duelists of his age and Fisto is like 10th, maybe. Do you just put THAT much more weight on the PT era?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm referring to the "prime" comment by Lucas, not the Golden age one. You've seen both.

Yes I know what you were talking about thank you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There was some context behind his defeat of Sel Makor. It's not like he overpowered the actual spirit with his own power. He defeated a body that was possessed by it, and didn't give it time to even adjust to the body. Unless we are to assume he's greater than a godlike spirit and the power of the emperors voice combined. Seriously, what does that fight show us? The Wrath's saber skills, what? Tell me.

That "joke Grievous" has some actual impressive combat feats against impressive jedi. He's outskilled and physically overpowered some via physical strength. Kit's fight with Grievous shows us Fisto's ability with a saber.

You're wrong actually. Sel Makor did have time to adjust to the body, since before the Wrath fights it but after it possesses Vitiate, Sel Makor magics up about 20ish Gormak to fight. I guess..... to give it time to adjust to the body. >:]

I mean, I'm not sure you understand that when I say godlike I mean that he can literally create beings out of nothing, on top of being capable of planetary destruction. So clearly even in possession of the Voice's body Sel Makor was pretty f*cking powerful to be able to create a bunch of creatures out of thin air (something he'd also done earlier btw). Magada-Ru even describes him as "all-powerful" at one point. Which clearly isn't the case to be fair. >:]

The fight show's us how freaking powerful the Wrath is. Fisto likely would have evaporated if he tried to fight something as powerful as that. That the Wrath can withstand the powers of such a being and defeat it is freaking legendary. No, I don't think he's greater than Sel Makor + Vitiate, obviously. But are you trying to suggest that being wasn't still immensely powerful? Come on. It's at least Dooku levels bro. AT LEAST.

This was still early CW, so it's entirely probable that GG just wasn't that great a duelist yet. Not as good as he would become at least. Still early on his Dooku training.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The text indicates the fight was intense and even until Ventress pierced his guard. While her advantage over him was small (analyzing his fighting style), even in a fight amongst equals, a small advantage can go a long way. Furthermore, Wrath's force feats and saber feats pale in comparison to Ventress's, so what exactly is your point?

That close to AotC Ventress isn't that impressive though. So Fisto being on her level just doesn't suggest anything overly impressive in sabers. I mean, hell no does the Wrath pale in comparison to Ventress's. That's absurd and dumb as hell. He'd beat her at her peak.

You really think that the Emperor's Wrath would lose to Asajj Ventress? >:?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you referring to the shark general busting through the huge underwater tunnel? If so, that is true. However, it would still be a strength feat for Fisto, given that the same advantage would apply to the shark during their underwater fight; and the fact that Fisto's physical blows to the general's head had an affect on said general, despite his head being durable enough to bust through the tunnel without putting a scratch on him, shows how powerful Fisto's physical attacks are. Not to mention that to match the general in h2h combat, would require Fisto to have enough strength to fight off a beast who can propel himself with tremendous force.

Wouldn't propelling himself indicate his tail and legs muscles though? Not his upper body strength. TBH I've never seen this fight, so I can't tell how accurate you're being in describing this, but I guess that's a decent feat. Sub-Khem, but decent.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ok, LeGenD. If that helps you to climax, I won't ruin it for you.

Fact is, even Ahsoka has better feats, especially in regards to TK than the Wrath. You wouldn't be able to prove he'd beat her, let alone one of the top dogs of her era.



Oh man, you actually believe that, right? Priceless.

How do you think Ahsoka would react to the Dread Masters? Because I'm pretty sure they'd crush her without even looking. As would the Emperor's Voice and probably Baras and Ekkage too.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, if I were to use Neph's own logic regarding speed against him, then I wouldn't even have to list force feats. If power is the only key to one's speed, then Fisto is a beast by default since he is considered one of the greatest duelists in history. Exceptional speed would be a requirement, just as skill, especially in the context of a life or death duel, which is what the quotes about Fisto indicate, especially being was acknowledged as greater than Cin (who is considered a master of every form and among the best himself), and being picked to arrest Sidious.

I'm not even sure what the **** you're talking about here. How is that my logic? Exceptional speed based on that evidence? Are you.... on the drugs? It's ok man, I can help you if you are. (this is a joke, calm down)

I mean, even the Bounty Hunter beat Darth Tormen who could easily blitz other Sith Lords. So lets not wank the PT's speed that much, ok?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Anywho, Wrath could likely win, but it will be an intense fight. I don't expect Neph to accept that, though.

He may not curbstomp him, but Fisto really isn't that close to him at all. He's vastly more powerful and just a superior combatant by far.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The evidence? Sorry bro, but Kit Fisto isn't on the same level as the Emperor's Wrath. One's one of the greatest Sith ever who resists godlike beings like Sel Makor and the Dread Masters and the other is an above average Council member. Fisto certainly isn't powerful or skilled enough to literally be considered a superweapon before he vastly improves in power. Personally I boggle at how a Jedi even gets that accolade without being at crazypants levels. And then gets much MORE POWERFUL??? o_O


He's powerful enough to be considered by numerous beings as one of histories greatest.

Resisting Sel Makor means he can resist lightsaber blows? Again, what bearing would any of that have against Fisto?


Originally posted by Nephthys
And the Wrath can beat that guy in Act II. And you think Ahsoka > ? You can see why I think you're really, really selling Swtor short here I hope.


No, I don't actually think that. My point is, your opinion is irrelevant and needs more backing than a bunch of fancy terms and implications of power. Feat-wise, Ahsoka even as of season 1 has better force feats than your precious Wrath. Powerscaling, she is far below Fisto, who happens to be among the best of her order. Anakin was furious in learning that Ahsoka attempted to try and take on Grievous alone, whereas Dooku was unsurprised that Grievous couldn't take on someone like Fisto.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he did use TK to get the upper hand. As most of GG's opponents do. Early Grievous really isn't a stellar combatant though.


No, he didn't. He was all over Grievous, forcing the general on the fleeting end during majority of the duel, and even disarmed him of one saber within the first few seconds of the fight.

Early Grievous has maintained an upper hand against Kenobi in their saber duels. Hell, even TPM Kenobi was good enough to provide a great deal of help for Qui Gon when facing one of the most skilled and well trained sith lords of all time.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He's certainly not as good as he is later on.


Nothing indicates a difference in Grievous' dueling ability. His performances against Kenobi remained about the same until ROTS, indicating that the only one who improved between the two was Kenobi.

Regardless, I can just as easily say Fisto improved as well. Force users tend to get more powerful with time, enhancing their connection to the force. Grievous' advantage over his opponents is his strength, along with the speed and different angles in which he can attack with all four sabers. He also has chip in his brain that allows him to quickly adapt to his opponents fighting style within a few exchanges. Those are all advantages he had when facing Fisto as well. He doesn't get a speed upgrade every month.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He'd beat GG as well.


Via the force, if Grievous gives him an opening. Otherwise, you have nothing from him to suggest he'd overcome Grievous in a saber duel.



Originally posted by Nephthys
TBH I'm not even sure Drallig could have killed the Beast of Marka Ragnos with a training saber like acolyte Wrath did. Terentateks are known to slaughter even groups of highly powerful Jedi, are they not? Or maybe I'm just selling Cin short.


Irrelevant.


BTW, do you have a quote about Terentateks killing groups of highly powerful jedi?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't indicate as much as you seem to think. At the time the only impressive Jedi on the planet were the B team, Anakin, Shaak Ti and Drallig. Mace distrusted Anakin and Shaak Ti was chosen to guard the temple, so the only thing we can ascertain with Kit being picked is that he's > ol' Drallig again.


It proves Kit is better than any of them since Mace chose the best there to face Sidious. Cin is a master of all saber forms, and is stated to be among the best in jedi history (Zenwolf provided the source). Being better than some of the best means what, Neph?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is pretty vague and hyperbolic and not really all that useful as evidence for his skills.


It's not vague or hyperbolic at all. It's pretty straight forward, especially in the context of a life or death duel against the most powerful sith in history, which is pretty much what the statements focused on.

Vague are the statements you keep harping on to elevate The Wrath far higher than he is. Most of it just implies power and exceptional skill, which I'm not arguing against. Kit's quotes basically tells us where he is at compared to the majority of jedi in history.


Originally posted by Nephthys
And I simply don't see it man. What accolades and quotes? Being one of the best duelists in history and being > Drallig? Wrath is basically in the top 3-5 duelists of his age and Fisto is like 10th, maybe. Do you just put THAT much more weight on the PT era?


So he's better than Fisto because Fisto has more superiors within his era than The Wrath does his? What awful logic, especially since being at the top of an era in it's prime would be a harder position to fill. I mean, Dooku, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Maul, Anakin, etc.



Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I don't think he's greater than Sel Makor + Vitiate, obviously.


He defeats a godlike being who possessed Vitiate's voice, but he's not better than their combined strength? What exactly should I be impressed about then?


Originally posted by Nephthys
But are you trying to suggest that being wasn't still immensely powerful? Come on. It's at least Dooku levels bro. AT LEAST.


Not powerful enough to defeat someone like The Wrath. Dooku would demolish The Wrath. Obviously the being wasn't operating at full power which makes it hard to determine how great the feat is. Of course I wouldn't assume that just anyone could pull it off, but Fisto isn't just anyone. Besides, I'd say Boba fighting Abeloth is more impressive, yet Boba wouldn't stand a chance against Kit.

The only conclusion you can draw from the fight is that The Wrath is powerful. The only other alternative, is to assume he is greater than the combined power of Vitiate and Makor.



Originally posted by Nephthys
That close to AotC Ventress isn't that impressive though.


She's more impressive than The Wrath and has better feats even as of when Dooku first discovered her. According to him, she was a sith in all but name, as far as sheer combat.


Originally posted by Nephthys
You really think that the Emperor's Wrath would lose to Asajj Ventress? >:?


Based on feats? Hell yeah, which is why barely losing to her isn't a bad showing, especially when she had an advantage.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Wouldn't propelling himself indicate his tail and legs muscles though? Not his upper body strength. TBH I've never seen this fight, so I can't tell how accurate you're being in describing this, but I guess that's a decent feat. Sub-Khem, but decent.


Pretty sure it's on youtube.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not even sure what the **** you're talking about here. How is that my logic? Exceptional speed based on that evidence? Are you.... on the drugs? It's ok man, I can help you if you are. (this is a joke, calm down)


Pretty simple. You have consistently asserted that speed hinges on a force users power, and that someone labeled powerful can't be blitzed despite a lack of speed feats. Consider this, Fisto is one of the greatest duelists of his order (and of all time). A requirement to fill such a roll would be that he have exceptional speed, thus making Fisto a force beast by default, especially if power and speed are connected. Before you say it could be about technical skill, being one of the greatest swordsmen in the context of a life or death duel, speed is just as important as technical skill, otherwise one can't be considered as one of the greatest swordsmen if he is unable to use his skill with sufficient speed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I mean, even the Bounty Hunter beat Darth Tormen who could easily blitz other Sith Lords.


Well then, there goes your theory. Why don't you read carefully before arguing against an assertion you constantly apply in debates?

Are you going to flip out if I tell you that I may use your own statement against you in future debates regarding speed? Or is this, again, your last time responding to me? lol


Originally posted by Nephthys
So lets not wank the PT's speed that much, ok?


Pay attention next time.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Fisto really isn't that close to him at all. He's vastly more powerful and just a superior combatant by far.


Right, although Fisto has the better dueling feats of the two, such as easily besting Grievous, who has given other jedi masters, whom also have good feats and hype under their name, as opposed to besting people who are called skilled. Fisto also has better force feats. But, by all means, keep on harping on The Wrath's fancy terms and hyperbolic quotes. After all, Fisto's more straight forward quotes are still better.

You seem mad.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
whereas Dooku was unsurprised that Grievous couldn't take on someone like Fisto. Quote?

The Wrath likely wins due to the sheer amount of damage that it takes to kill her.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He's powerful enough to be considered by numerous beings as one of histories greatest.

Resisting Sel Makor means he can resist lightsaber blows? Again, what bearing would any of that have against Fisto?

That doesn't have any bearing on his power and a bunch of uninformed opinions matter little to someone as powerful as the Wrath, not does that accolade confer superiority to him. It's simply not that impressive. I find the thing I keep bringing up, the Jedi who was so powerful he was considered a superweapon, to be a greater accolade than that.

The bearing is that he's far more powerful than Fisto. So far you've not even tried addressing any of the evidence I've shown you that he's immensely powerful and have just pretended it doesn't exist or establish anything. If you're not going to engage my points then I'm not sure why we're even talking. The Wrath has defeated opponents who vastly exceed Fisto in power or resisted their power with his own. This establishes his own level of power as far greater than Fisto's.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, I don't actually think that. My point is, your opinion is irrelevant and needs more backing than a bunch of fancy terms and implications of power. Feat-wise, Ahsoka even as of season 1 has better force feats than your precious Wrath. Powerscaling, she is far below Fisto, who happens to be among the best of her order. Anakin was furious in learning that Ahsoka attempted to try and take on Grievous alone, whereas Dooku was unsurprised that Grievous couldn't take on someone like Fisto.

Please don't refer to him as "your precious Wrath." It comes off as more mean-spirited and hostile than I'd like to suffer when talking to someone.

And you're being ridiculous if you think Ahsoka has greater Force feats than him. The Wrath resisted the power of the Dread Masters with his own power. Need I remind you again that they can crush entire fleets with their power? Or that they once killed every living thing in a quarter mile? Or that a tiny fraction of their power obliterated a giant statue indirectly? Oh man but Ahsoka pulled a wall over, clearly that's much better right?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, he didn't. He was all over Grievous, forcing the general on the fleeting end during majority of the duel, and even disarmed him of one saber within the first few seconds of the fight.

Early Grievous has maintained an upper hand against Kenobi in their saber duels. Hell, even TPM Kenobi was good enough to provide a great deal of help for Qui Gon when facing one of the most skilled and well trained sith lords of all time.

It's how he got the definitive edge over him. Again, I chalk it up to Grievous' inexperience against a true Jedi Master and his arrogance getting the best of him. Not that Fisto's performance isn't impressive or that he's isn't hovering around Grievous' level somewhere (beneath his peak imo). But I don't see how the feat establishes Fisto as better than the Wrath.

And early AotC Kenobi isn't the beast you're making him out as. So in a 2 on 1 duel he actually managed to contribute? Wow, incredible.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nothing indicates a difference in Grievous' dueling ability. His performances against Kenobi remained about the same until ROTS, indicating that the only one who improved between the two was Kenobi.

Regardless, I can just as easily say Fisto improved as well. Force users tend to get more powerful with time, enhancing their connection to the force. Grievous' advantage over his opponents is his strength, along with the speed and different angles in which he can attack with all four sabers. He also has chip in his brain that allows him to quickly adapt to his opponents fighting style within a few exchanges. Those are all advantages he had when facing Fisto as well. He doesn't get a speed upgrade every month.

Which kind of proves my point, since GG performed consistently against Kenobi who we know made significant improvement during the war. So... thanks?

You're free to offer your baseless speculation, sure. But there's noting that indicates that Fisto improved and he seems to have already reached his peak. And clearly GG requires more than just that chip, else he wouldn't need to train with Dooku. He still needs to get familiar with actual lightsaber combat as we can see when Dooku gives him pointers on how best to fight. GG loses his hand to Fisto seemingly through a misstep and miscalculation on his part.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Via the force, if Grievous gives him an opening. Otherwise, you have nothing from him to suggest he'd overcome Grievous in a saber duel.

I'm fairly sure I've established the Wrath's strength, speed, power and skill enough to prove he can take Grievous in a saber duel.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Irrelevant.


BTW, do you have a quote about Terentateks killing groups of highly powerful jedi?

No, it isn't irrelevant. It establishes how much of a combat beast the Wrath is that he killed an enhanced Terentatek that had slaughtered every Jedi and Sith that laid eyes on it since Marka Ragnos' time. With a training saber. After just landing on Korriban. You don't find that incredibly impressive and think it establishes a prodigious talent and level of power that would only vastly grow? If he's that good in a few months, how do you think he'd be in a 3+ years? The Wraths also good enough to kill a prominent and very powerful Darth on the next planet in the game. So he's clearly an utter prodigy and powerhouse. How good was Fisto a few months after becoming a Jedi?

Not on me, but the whole point of the Great Hunt was that groups of Jedi Masters were sent out to hunt down and kill Terentateks and many of them failed. There was that Qel'Droma thing as well as I recall. But the Beast of Marka Ragnos was a special one anyway, so it's an incredible feat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It proves Kit is better than any of them since Mace chose the best there to face Sidious. Cin is a master of all saber forms, and is stated to be among the best in jedi history (Zenwolf provided the source). Being better than some of the best means what, Neph?

Better than Anakin? Don't be silly. Better than Cin and maybe better than Shaak Ti, sure. But there's other reasons he could have been chosen over Ti than strict superiority.

It means you're also one of the best, but that's simply equally as vague as before and your statements about that are still uninformed opinions.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's not vague or hyperbolic at all. It's pretty straight forward, especially in the context of a life or death duel against the most powerful sith in history, which is pretty much what the statements focused on.

Vague are the statements you keep harping on to elevate The Wrath far higher than he is. Most of it just implies power and exceptional skill, which I'm not arguing against. Kit's quotes basically tells us where he is at compared to the majority of jedi in history.

It's incredibly vague and incredibly hyperbolic. He's one of the best according to what criteria? On what scale? Is he in the top 100? Top 10,000 swordsmen? Who knows. It doesn't establish he's better than pretty much any notable swordsman. It doesn't automatically confer superiority to someone without the same accolade. That's clearly illogical.

How is there the slightest bit of difference there? Being one of the best implies power and exceptional skill just as much as any of the Wrath's quotes. How does it place Fisto above the majority of Jedi any more than the Wrath's or anyone elses quotes place them above the majority of Sith/Jedi?

Like, do you not think the Wrath is also one of the best swordsman ever? You can think not if you want, but the vagueness of the statement could easily apply to him regardless. Even if you thought he was merely in top million, it could still apply to him exactly as easily as it could to Kit Fisto.

But of course, this is all kind of moot. Since again, that accolade is just an unsupported opinion. So it's not really that important.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So he's better than Fisto because Fisto has more superiors within his era than The Wrath does his? What awful logic, especially since being at the top of an era in it's prime would be a harder position to fill. I mean, Dooku, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Maul, Anakin, etc.

No, but you keep going on about Fisto's placement in the era's and standing putting him above the Wrath, so I figured I'd respond to that. The Swtor era has plenty of premier swordsman as well, the overwhelming majority of which as lesser than the Wrath.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He defeats a godlike being who possessed Vitiate's voice, but he's not better than their combined strength? What exactly should I be impressed about then?



It's unimpressive unless he defeats someone with Sel Makor and Vitiate's combined power? Are you trolling me here? I think I'd see you in a better light if you were tbh. Otherwise you're just being willfully obtuse, thoughtless and disingenuous.

You're supposed to be impressed by him defeating a being of immense power. That he's not freaking double Sidious level doesn't make that a worthless feat. Duh.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not powerful enough to defeat someone like The Wrath. Dooku would demolish The Wrath. Obviously the being wasn't operating at full power which makes it hard to determine how great the feat is. Of course I wouldn't assume that just anyone could pull it off, but Fisto isn't just anyone. Besides, I'd say Boba fighting Abeloth is more impressive, yet Boba wouldn't stand a chance against Kit.

The only conclusion you can draw from the fight is that The Wrath is powerful. The only other alternative, is to assume he is greater than the combined power of Vitiate and Makor.

That's a ridiculous conclusion and I'm surprised someone I thought was pretty smart could come to it. Your preconceived notions of how powerful the Wrath is shouldn't impact the estimation of a feat establishing the Wrath's power. You're saying that the Wrath sucks and because he sucks his feat must have been easy and thus he sucks. It's an entirely circular argument that relies on the faulty premise that Dooku would demolish the Wrath in order to reach a conclusion based entirely on the faulty premise. So you're using your conclusion to support your conclusion. Don't be dumb.

You seem to think it was operating at like 20% power though. That's stupid, at worst it would be an vaguely-impeded Voice. That is still monstrously powerful and still on a level than would obliterate Fisto.

Sel Makor was still powerful enough to be able to create beings out of nothing to fight the Wrath. So we know he still wielded massive levels of power. That's a feat beyond pretty much every Force User who isn't in the seriously big leagues. And faaaaaar above Kit freaking Fisto. You don't need to be Vitiate + Makor levels to have massive power, you know. Try again.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
She's more impressive than The Wrath and has better feats even as of when Dooku first discovered her. According to him, she was a sith in all but name, as far as sheer combat.

She isn't and she doesn't. The Wrath could take her at her prime and take her apart that early. Being a Sith in all but name doesn't change the fact that she wasn't taught any Sith teachings or techniques. She wasn't a Sith.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Based on feats? Hell yeah, which is why barely losing to her isn't a bad showing, especially when she had an advantage.

I didn't say it's a bad showing, I was using it to allow us to establish Fisto's level. Since he lost to early Ventress, it's clear to me that he's not really on stomping Grievous levels or RotS Kenobi level or anything like that. I brought it up as a comparison to help us better evaluate him. Because whooping GG and losing to AotC Ventress is an gross inconsistency.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Pretty sure it's on youtube.

I looked.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Pretty simple. You have consistently asserted that speed hinges on a force users power, and that someone labeled powerful can't be blitzed despite a lack of speed feats. Consider this, Fisto is one of the greatest duelists of his order (and of all time). A requirement to fill such a roll would be that he have exceptional speed, thus making Fisto a force beast by default, especially if power and speed are connected. Before you say it could be about technical skill, being one of the greatest swordsmen in the context of a life or death duel, speed is just as important as technical skill, otherwise one can't be considered as one of the greatest swordsmen if he is unable to use his skill with sufficient speed.

I'm pretty sure this is another imagined faux pas you've cooked up for me. I don't recall saying that. At most I've argued that the more powerful a person is the better they should be in sabers in general but feats are still the best, most reliable method of establishing that stuff. My position has always been that if someone is very powerful than we can assume decent baseline levels for his ability because otherwise that would be pretty nonsensical. I've not consistently asserted what you think I have at all. Which doesn't matter since your argument is utterly nonsensical and doesn't support itself at all.

If you could, I'd really appreciate if you'd stop bringing up arguments I've made in the past and trying to throw them in my face. Especially if you're going to mess it up as badly as this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well then, there goes your theory. Why don't you read carefully before arguing against an assertion you constantly apply in debates?

Are you going to flip out if I tell you that I may use your own statement against you in future debates regarding speed? Or is this, again, your last time responding to me? lol

What theory? I seriously just cannot get you sometimes. I don't even see how that defeats your made up argument of mine. That the Hunter can defeat extremely fast Sith Lords has nothing to do with whether or not Force Speed is entirely reliant on an individuals power. You were really tired when you wrote this, weren't you.

It's not like Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, Grievous, Maul etc haven't had problems in melee with non-force sensitives, bro.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Pay attention next time.

I just... I don't even know what you think you've proven here.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Right, although Fisto has the better dueling feats of the two, such as easily besting Grievous, who has given other jedi masters, whom also have good feats and hype under their name, as opposed to besting people who are called skilled. Fisto also has better force feats. But, by all means, keep on harping on The Wrath's fancy terms and hyperbolic quotes. After all, Fisto's more straight forward quotes are still better.

The only dueling feat you've brought up is him getting the upper hand on Grievous. Which isn't good enough. Fisto is far less powerful his accolades are simply not as good. And not as good as you seem to think they are either.

The Wrath still wins easily.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Quote?
Dooku says so in the the same episode that Fisto faces GG.


Anyways, Sidious66 makes some good points. Atm I'm still siding with Fisto.

Originally posted by Stigma
Dooku says so in the the same episode that Fisto faces GG.


Anyways, Sidious66 makes some good points. Atm I'm still siding with Fisto.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/28efd7421928b6385454fb801e93c35a/tumblr_nkfmshTnZq1tjebxto1_250.png

You're already burried, my friend.

*buried.

Originally posted by Nephthys
*buried.
Indeed. Yet as a non-native English speaker I feel justified in making a typo or two once in a while

And while you're at it, please correct Bantha's plural form for Starkiller which he writes as Starkiller's LMFAO in "Starkiller runs a Bendak gauntlet" thread. You posted there, but somehow did not see it. You've become less perceptive, I suppose

I was merely correcting you, bro. No need to get so salty.

https://41.media.tumblr.com/d00ea06cbe4fb237a7418c05b47732ec/tumblr_nkf42qqifF1si6rs6o1_250.png

I'm just offering a friendly advice, my buried friend. If you're keen on correcting grammatical mistakes, you'll find much more across the board

You're so salty right now.

Hmm you're obsession with being salty is showing mmm Projection?

I often project saltiness at others, yes.

Also I think it's a funny word to use.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I often project saltiness at others, yes.
You are the master of it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I think it's a funny word to use.
It is

Neph, give me something that would apply in a fight against Fisto. Having great mind resisting power, and being called better than someone who is a super weapon or other hyperbolic nonsense and vague implications of great power, does not put him above a jedi who is one of the greatest of jedi of an order in it's prime, and who has solidly bested a cyborg that has bested other jedi with actual good feats as well. I haven't even brought up Fisto's other feats, such as his quick and easy slaughtering of some of Grievous' personal elite magnaguards, which is just as good as blitzing fodder sith, considering magnaguards' reaction speed.

Defeating a godlike being, who wasn't operating any near close to full power, is a very unquantifiable feat, and it's not up to you to level the wrath based on it. I mean, the logic your using with this feat, you can just as easily say he's greater than Sidious, since Sidious, too, has never beat down a possessed body who can create life through thin air.

Again, provide me some saber feats, and force feats that would apply against someone like Kit in combat. It's very simple if you can. Stop getting worked up about how mad/hostile you think I'm getting (it's not stopping your point by point responses, so what's the worry?), and worry about your own frustration and anger, because only your argument is being effecting by such emotions, and your emotions are visible in your posts.

I'll happily accept that Fisto might lose, if you provide what I'm looking for. You're not even coming close, and I could make a better case for your precious Wrath (lol) if I wanted to, TBH. A stomp is far, far overdoing it, though. Sorry, but you should already know how I feel about making a character out to be far more than what they've shown, unless their power levels are absolutely established in all eras without needing to show it, such as the ones.

So... try again?


@Stigma, thanks.

I posted 9 minutes worth of saber and force feats on the first page, bro. Sid (ha ha ha) you watch it? Carthage himself pointed out some notable examples.

Dismissing a feat just because you don't like how powerful it indicates a character is is silly. Obviously it doesn't mean he's greater than Sidious. But that feat is still ****ing incredible and you know it is so defeating a being that powerful reflects very well on the Wrath. There are some factors like Sel Makor possibly being inexperienced with combat since he's non-corporeal and operates through Avatars, but the feat is highly impressive regardless, since he would certainly have to deal with Sel Makor's power.

I've pointed out many examples of the Wrath's combat feats and posted a video of him in action. I don't see why it's not good enough for you for him to have defeated extremely powerful, skilled opponents that eclipse Kit. That we don't get to see the fights occur is simply a limitation of the medium. What matters is that he defeated these guys, regardless of how he did it. These feats are still quantifiable and I've gone a long way to trying to explain that to you but you've simply chosen to willfully ignore all of that to lowball him.

If you care about me making a character out to be far more that they've shown, then I hope you understand how I feel with you making out a character to be far less than they've shown. That's how I feel about this.

Also, skipping out on responding to the bulk of my points and then thinking you can condescend to me is lulzworthy.

Try again, and stop accusing me of what I'm not doing. It's making you look desperate. I've not dismissed anything. Kit's feats are just better, so are his accolades.

Your posts about the ones tops your posts here. I don't know what to say. lol

Is context irrelevant in general or just scenarios that favor SWTOR? mmm

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Try again, and stop accusing me of what I'm not doing. It's making you look desperate. I've not dismissed anything. Kit's feats are just better, so are his accolades.

Your posts about the ones tops your posts here. I don't know what to say. lol

Look, if you don't want to respond you can just say so. This isn't a playground where the first to stop responding loses. You can leave at any time and I won't think less of you for it.

You've repeatedly tried to dismiss things. I bring up the Terentatek feat and you call it irrelevant. I bring up the Wyellett feat and you ignore it. I bring up the Dread Masters and you say it proves nothing. I bring up Sel Makor and you dismiss it as unquantifiable and insist Dooku would crush the Wrath. I write 2 long posts and you don't bother responding to them. I write another response and you tell me to try again. It's bad enough to be doing it but at least be honest about what you're doing.

Ok, I don't want to respond.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Is context irrelevant in general or just scenarios that favor SWTOR? mmm

It's relevant when you try butting in to a conversation without any and miss the point.

S66 keeps asking about specific combat feats. I was referring to how he beats them in response to that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ok, I don't want to respond.

Yessssssss, I win.

this is a joke

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's relevant when you try butting in to a conversation without any and miss the point.

S66 keeps asking about specific combat feats. I was referring to how he beats them in response to that.

Without any what?

Just because I didn't respond to the argument doesn't mean I didn't read it. My question is valid: dismissing context is silly and I'm curious if it only applies to SWTOR or if it's just a general thing?

Wrath has deflected blasterbolts point blank, ripped off massive stone/steel ceiling portions and crushed people with them, blitzed a Jedi that was charging him, and killed a Jedi/multiple troopers with a TK wave before the Jedi could react. Fisto's best telekinetic feats are moving a massive canister/redirecting missiles. Wrath has a power advantage and Fisto's speed advantage is probably at best slight. Wrath is faster than AOTC Kenobi by a bit, anyway. As for skill Wrath was considered one of the best of the Sith Empire which is a comparable accolade to Fisto's at the very least.



Beating the Emperors Voice and beating Darth Baras who defeated Darth Angral and stalemated Satele Shan >> killing magnaguards. Fisto doesn't have the same advantage to exploit against Wrath that he had against Grievous, Wrath utilizes a single blade and Wrath's power is also an edge in his favor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's relevant when you try butting in to a conversation without any and miss the point.

S66 keeps asking about specific combat feats.


You mean asking for? That are better than Kit's, yes. You haven't, though. Whereas I went into detail about how good Kit's opponents were, and how good his opponents' opponents were; you haven't. You provided me with feats, and ignore context.

Kit's not trying to mind dominate him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Without any what?

Just because I didn't respond to the argument doesn't mean I didn't read it. My question is valid: dismissing context is silly and I'm curious if it only applies to SWTOR or if it's just a general thing?

Without any steak.

(context)

Context can be important but there are times when it's unavoidably impossible to fully have. Obviously we can't see the individual saber blows of the Wrath vs Baras fight because it's a video game. So we can't see exactly how the Wrath got the upper hand. But he did get it. There's no apparent reason why he couldn't replicate the same effectiveness against an equal or lesser opponent. Furthermore, because it's a video game we can't see the Wrath pull off many feats, because the vast quantity of the fighting takes place in gameplay. So it's only logical that we move slightly away from feat-based evaluation and towards achievement-based evaluation. An achievement is still a feat, but it doesn't satisfy the specific examples S66 was looking for. And even then, I did actually post many feats for him that he never fully acknowledged.

I'm reminded of my thoughts on that age-old argument about the Malak vs Revan duel. Remember that? People kept arguing that it was unquantifiable because he could have just used mines or grenades or something. I don't buy into that though because if hes that good with grenades/mines/whatever then he can use the same effectiveness again for equal results. So the feat stands. Unless there actually is a specific context where a victory isn't replicate-able then it's valid as a feat.

I understand your rationale perfectly, thanks. I don't necessarily have an issue with it. What I want to know is whether it's going to be selectively applied.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I understand your rationale perfectly, thanks. I don't necessarily have an issue with it. What I want to know is whether it's going to be selectively applied.

I can't promise that it won't be because I often forget I've made a particular argument and sometimes say something contrary to a position I've previously taken because I'm looking at it from a different angle. But I can't see how I could apply this selectively. It seems pretty clear.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't promise that it won't be because I often forget I've made a particular argument and sometimes say something contrary to a position I've previously taken because I'm looking at it from a different angle. But I can't see how I could apply this selectively. It seems pretty clear.

Don't sell yourself short, you have an unparalleled aptitude for applying things selectively.

Originally posted by carthage
Wrath has deflected blasterbolts point blank, ripped off massive stone/steel ceiling portions and crushed people with them, blitzed a Jedi that was charging him, and killed a Jedi/multiple troopers with a TK wave before the Jedi could react. Fisto's best telekinetic feats are moving a massive canister/redirecting missiles. Wrath has a power advantage and Fisto's speed advantage is probably at best slight. Wrath is faster than AOTC Kenobi by a bit, anyway. As for skill Wrath was considered one of the best of the Sith Empire which is a comparable accolade to Fisto's at the very least.


Comparable at the very most. Again, I'm more impressed with Kit being one of the best of an order in it's prime. Kit's placing is just as demanding, if not more. Being rooted out as better than a battle master, who is not only a master of all forms, but is also considered one of the best the order ever had to offer. Being better than one of the best in history, puts much more emphasis on Fisto's status.

As for Fisto's force feats, well I've already listed them. Most likely this will come down to who is better in sabers since neither will be ragdolling or controlling the other with the force. Though force pushes come in handy in duel, which I would give the Fisto the edge there as well, considering his force pushes on heavy objects underwater, which requires more force than on air.


Originally posted by carthage
Beating the Emperors Voice and beating Darth Baras who defeated Darth Angral and stalemated Satele Shan >> killing magnaguards. Fisto doesn't have the same advantage to exploit against Wrath that he had against Grievous, Wrath utilizes a single blade and Wrath's power is also an edge in his favor.


What wouldn't Kit have? Strength? Speed? What? His blitzing of elite magnaguards gives us a glimps of Fisto's speed, along with the fact that even Kenobi was startled with Kit's speed, and Kenobi has seen the likes of Maul fight. I don't see an issue there. Not to mention his overwhelming of Grievous can be looked at as not only a speed feat, but a strength feat as well, seeing as Fisto didn't have a problem with Grievous in any area. Too much emphasis on lightsaber forms is overrated. Fisto wouldn't be one of the greatest saber masters of his era if he were restricted to only what his preferred form calls for. Moreover, Kit's form, while called one of the most simple forms, is very demanding in what it calls for, TBH. To fight Grievous would call for exceptional reaction speed. To overwhelm Grievous and force him on the defensive, would call for exceptional striking speed and/or strength. Fisto did both. Then, as I said, there's Fisto's feat of matching the shark General (who, again, can propel himself with enough force to bust through a large underwater tunnel) in strength, and fought him off. Skill wise, well, there's the fact that he adapted to Grievous' fighting style, when Grievous himself can adapt to forms in just a few exchanges.

Really, his performance against Grievous says a lot. The opponents who struggled with Grievous, says a lot about Grievous, which in turn says even more about Fisto.