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Battleground is Tython during Je'daii time.

Vitiate solo's tbh. A galaxy's worth of power is above even them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate solo's tbh. A galaxy's worth of power is above even them.
Yhea the race of abeloth and the one named the celestian get kick ass by the Rakatta XD. So that's clear than their power have limits...

Ones godstomp both of them with ease

The ones stomp.

Originally posted by Stigma
The ones stomp.

I'm really not following the logic here. So Anakin could become as powerful as the Father but Vitiate becoming x10000000000000000000 more powerful isn't enough to defeat them?

The One's stomp because according to Obi-wan Mortis had the entire UNIVERSE'S Force energies running through it.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The One's stomp because according to Obi-wan Mortis had the entire UNIVERSE'S Force energies running through it.

the battleground isn't Mortis tho

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm really not following the logic here. So Anakin could become as powerful as the Father but Vitiate becoming x10000000000000000000 more powerful isn't enough to defeat them?

Your "logic" is informed by a well established bias for Vitiate. We went through this: The Mortis Anchorites are a universal threat. That's above Vitiate and Sidious.

Accept Viti's inferiority and move on. You don't see me claiming Sidious can win this despite the hype surrounding his DE incarnation. Learn from my example and wisdom and move on.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your "logic" is informed by a well established bias for Vitiate. We went through this: The Mortis Anchorites are a universal threat. That's above Vitiate and Sidious.

Accept Viti's inferiority and move on. You don't see me claiming Sidious can win this despite the hype surrounding his DE incarnation. Learn from my example and wisdom and move on.

LMAO Its not about Vitiate being above someone. This version of Vitiate will never become reality and it shows your bias to think that I'm wanking someone every time we disagree. I already consider him inferior to much weaker characters than the ones like Luke or that dude in my avatar.

There are 3 claims here:

1) Anakin's potential = Sidious x 2
2) Anakin's potential = The Father
3) The Father > Vitiate x 1000000000000000000000

So which one is to be taken seriously? Or do you actually believe that Anakin prime = The father = Sidious x2 > a galaxy wide deity

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your "logic" is informed by a well established bias for Vitiate. We went through this: The Mortis Anchorites are a universal threat. That's above Vitiate and Sidious.


Not everyone seems to agree that the Ones are a universal threat. See below:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t608508.html

If the One's were truly a Universal threat, then surely it would ridiculous to believe that even a strike team of that caliber would stand a chance against even a single one of them.

Edit: Nvm, misread.

Originally posted by Sinious
LMAO Its not about Vitiate being above someone. This version of Vitiate will never become reality and it shows your bias to think that I'm wanking someone every time we disagree. I already consider him inferior to much weaker characters than the ones like Luke or that dude in my avatar.

There are 3 claims here:

1) Anakin's potential = Sidious x 2
2) Anakin's potential = The Father
3) The Father > Vitiate x 1000000000000000000000

So which one is to be taken seriously? Or do you actually believe that Anakin prime = The father = Sidious x2 > a galaxy wide deity

facepalm

The fact that this incarnation of Vitiate doesn't even exist within the lore makes your rabid eagerness more disturbing, not less. We get it: you desperately fantasize for scenarios in which Viti stacks up against or surpasses other established badasses and now your only recourse is for the occasional thread such as this where you feel you may be vindicated. But it isn't so.

For all my "bias" for Sidious... you don't see me claiming he'd do anything other than die horribly against a Mortis Anchorite, his vast feats and accolades notwithstanding.

The Mortis Anchorites were, according to the damn show, threats to the very fabric of the universal. Galaxy!Fantasy!Vitiate is still many orders of magnitude below that.

The Anchorites/Abeloth shitstomp these two.

{Lucas's proclamation about Anakin being 2x Sidious was before the Mortis Anchorites even existed in the lore. Which wouldn't be a problem if the lore didn't subsequently contradict it. The Father's Children = universal threats that needed to be quarantined in a temporal fold/pocket universe. The Father > Children and Anakin = or > The Father. So the only way Lucas's proclamation holds true now is if Sidious himself is approaching the Anchorites in power... which is an absolutely stupid contention to make... but hey, maybe you give Palps more credit than even I do. }

Palpatine throws a fully unleashed Force Storm at Vitiate, which can consume all of space.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

The fact that this incarnation of Vitiate doesn't even exist within the lore makes your rabid eagerness more disturbing, not less. We get it: you desperately fantasize for scenarios in which Viti stacks up against or surpasses other established badasses and now your only recourse is for the occasional thread such as this where you feel you may be vindicated. But it isn't so.

For all my "bias" for Sidious... you don't see me claiming he'd do anything other than die horribly against a Mortis Anchorite, his vast feats and accolades notwithstanding.

For someone at your age, this level of immaturity and aggression over a fictional character is really impressive.



Well see, now I know what you agree with or what you don't on the 3 claims that are being made regarding the issue here. You make it sound like I'm speaking heresy but many people would disagree with what you said here. From all this, I understand that you believe that Anakin prime = The Father = a universal power

I for example lol @ the fact that you think Anakin(who is more or less on Obi-wan Kenobi's level after all those years of training) could become a universal power.

Does it actually make sense to you that Anakin would be THAT powerful one day? Don't you think being Sidsx2 is a much more accurate estimate? You ignore all the details in the entire franchise that hint Anakin's potential's limits just because there are some vague accolades about the Father that says otherwise yet when it comes to other eras of EU, you ignore vague accolades completely. Well done.

Actually what does "Full Amp" Palpatine even mean? Palpatine's ultimate plan was actually very similar to Vitiate's, except instead of just draining the entire Galaxy in one swoop he turns the Galaxy into a DS nexus like he did to Byss.

Originally posted by Sinious
For someone at your age, this level of immaturity and aggression over a fictional character is really impressive.

Your bitterness over the fact that Viti can't hope to win this match has completely overwhelmed your ability to reason, my son.

What I do, I do for you.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well see, now I know what you agree with or what you don't on the 3 claims that are being made regarding the issue here. You make it sound like I'm speaking heresy but many people would disagree with what you said here.

Those illusory "many people" would be just as wrong as you are. Do the numbers comfort you?

Originally posted by Sinious
From all this, I understand that you believe that Anakin prime = The Father = a universal power

Originally posted by Sinious
I for example lol @ the fact that you think Anakin(who is more or less on Obi-wan Kenobi's level after all those years of training) could become a universal power.

ermm

You... don't seriously think I mean the Anakin Skywalker we typically see is a universal power, do you?





Originally posted by Sinious
Does it actually make sense to you that Anakin would be THAT powerful one day? Don't you think being Sidsx2 is a much more accurate estimate? You ignore all the details in the entire franchise that hint Anakin's potential's limits just because there are some vague accolades about the Father that says otherwise yet when it comes to other eras of EU, you ignore vague accolades completely. Well done.

facepalm

That you lowball Anakin's capabilities to make Vitiate's prospects against him more enticing is transparent. Anakin is The Father's chosen successor and the guy who brought two universal threats to the curb. He'd stomp Sidious and he'd stomp Vitiate. Sack up and digest your man's inadequacies.

TCW declared the Mortis Anchorites "more powerful in the Force than any ever encountered" and that the reason The Father sequestered his children was because they threatened the universe.

That's beyond Vitiate. Deal with it.

And Sel Makor "threatens all existence". Just because they threaten the universe doesn't mean they're universe-busters. Posing a threat to something isn't that unambiguous and immediate.

Also if normal Vitiate can destroy a galaxy then I fail to why Ritual Vitiate couldn't threaten the universe.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your bitterness over the fact that Viti can't hope to win this match has completely overwhelmed your ability to reason, my son.

What I do, I do for you.

Those illusory "many people" would be just as wrong as you are. Do the numbers comfort you?



ermm



facepalm

That you lowball Anakin's capabilities to make Vitiate's prospects against him more enticing is transparent. Anakin is The Father's chosen successor and the guy who brought two universal threats to the curb. He'd stomp Sidious and he'd stomp Vitiate. Sack up and digest your man's inadequacies.

TCW declared the Mortis Anchorites "more powerful in the Force than any ever encountered" and that the reason The Father sequestered his children was because they threatened the universe.

That's beyond Vitiate. Deal with it.

You keep bringing up Vitiate even though I've told you that I consider him to be inferior to much lesser beings. You instead of creating counter arguments, make claims about my motives to justify your douchiness which is nothing but sad. I don't enjoy making personal accusations like this about each other since I don't know you and don't care about you. If you're not capable of keeping it just about Star Wars, then ignore my posts.



My point is, if he were actually destined to become a semi-omnipotent universal power one day, he would be born much more prodigious and become much more powerful after all those years of training. His potential in the force is still comparable to other force users around him even though he is the greatest by a margin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sel Makor "threatens all existence". Just because they threaten the universe doesn't mean they're universe-busters. Posing a threat to something isn't that unambiguous and immediate.

But when they threaten the universe... they're universal threats... which is what I've called them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also if normal Vitiate can destroy a galaxy then I fail to why Ritual Vitiate couldn't threaten the universe.

Well it's cool that you speculate as much but it's really not relevant to the thread tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sel Makor "threatens all existence". Just because they threaten the universe doesn't mean they're universe-busters. Posing a threat to something isn't that unambiguous and immediate.

Also if normal Vitiate can destroy a galaxy then I fail to why Ritual Vitiate couldn't threaten the universe.

And they accuse you of having double standards.

Originally posted by Sinious
You keep bringing up Vitiate even though I've told you that I consider him to be inferior to much lesser beings. You instead of creating counter arguments, make claims about my motives to justify your douchiness which is nothing but sad. I don't enjoy making personal accusations like this about each other since I don't know you and don't care about you. If you're not capable of keeping it just about Star Wars, then ignore my posts.

It's not my fault that your agenda is so transparent.

Originally posted by Sinious
My point is, if he were actually destined to become a semi-omnipotent universal power one day, he would be born much more prodigious and become much more powerful after all those years of training.

mmm

So what you mean to say is that he's clearly not that special because he doesn't have the feats to support the hype? Funny: I seem to recall you totally rejecting that line of thought when the criticism was the same but the subject was Vitiate and not Anakin and we're right back to square one.

{The difference being that Anakin is outright confirmed to be what he is as The Father's intended successor and the guy who cowed two beings capable of threatening the universe with their powers.}

It's fortuitous that you mentioned "double standards" because here you are, clinging to them desperately like a drowning man to driftwood.

Originally posted by Sinious
His potential in the force is still comparable to other force users around him even though he is the greatest by a margin.

And? You could make that remark about any other character. You can always make a comparison between any two things: a dust mote and the Sun can still be compared even if one outclasses the other by exponential orders of magnitude.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But when they threaten the universe... they're universal threats... which is what I've called them.



Well it's cool that you speculate as much but it's really not relevant to the thread tbh.

And like I said, being universal threats don't mean they're universe-level powerhouses. Abeloth ****ing wasn't. Sel Makor ****ing wasn't. Vitiate was a galactic scale threat and he wasn't even close to that level in his standing power. Do you have anything other than this extremely vague, hyperbolic statement that suggests they can take a Vitiate slurping on 200 billion stars worth of energy?

It's only logical.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not my fault that your agenda is so transparent.





Apparently, its not.



Again with the personal remarks. I know how badly you want to put me in a situation where I am trying to justify my actions to you but its not gonna happen buddy. I'm simply too cool for that.




There are other characters out there who are confirmed to be a threat to all life or have godlike accolades but I don't see you wanking or even acknowledging them at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And like I said, being universal threats don't mean they're universe-level powerhouses. Abeloth ****ing wasn't. Do you have anything other than this extremely vague, hyperbolic statement that suggests they can take a Vitiate slurping on 200 billion stars worth of energy?

https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1380222758/274652.gif

In one corner, we have explicit statements about what these "actual" characters are capable of by someone who has sees them in action on the daily and who created a pocket universe to contain them.

In your corner, you have speculation about what a "hypothetical" incarnation of a character of might be capable of from people who have absolutely no friggin' clue.

And what's said about them {universal > galactic} isn't even equitable. It takes a superhuman contortionist to get to your worldview, Neph.

Originally posted by Sinious
Apparently, its not.

Originally posted by Sinious
There are other characters out there who are confirmed to be a threat to all life or have godlike accolades but I don't see you wanking or even acknowledging them at all.

I'll bite, Sinious. Like who?

Originally posted by Sinious
Again with the personal remarks. I know how badly you want to put me in a situation where I am trying to justify my actions to you but its not gonna happen buddy. I'm simply too cool for that.

No, a personal remark would be an attack against your person. No one is calling you fat or stupid or whatever. Your arguments are rife with double standards, which is a fact. There's no value judgment there regarding your person whatsoever.

You didn't address my point. Vitiate was a galactic scale threat and he wasn't even close to that level in his standing power. The Father "explicitly" saying they're a threat to the universe (lol) doesn't mean they're explicitly universe-level standing power-wise. You're simply assuming the maximum level you can on vague, limited information and trying to shout down anyone dissenting to that extreme extrapolation.

I don't even see how it's that speculative or why that's such a dirty word to you. If Vitiate is capable of destroying something trillions of time greater than himself with his rituals, then why can't he do the same..... again. That's not even speculation, he can do that. We know he can do that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You didn't address my point. Vitiate was a galactic scale threat and he wasn't even close to that level in his standing power. The Father "explicitly" saying they're a threat to the universe (lol) doesn't mean they're explicitly universe-level standing power-wise. You're simply assuming the maximum level you can on vague, limited information.

I don't even see how it's that speculative or why that's such a dirty word to you. If Vitiate is capable of destroying something trillions of time greater than himself with his rituals, then why can't he do the same..... again. That's not even speculation, he can do that. We know he can do that.

You're being silly.

The Mortis Anchorites are confirmed universal threats. Fantasy!Vitiate is confirmed nothing.

At the end of the day, we have explicit statements of fact from an expert regarding their capabilities whereas fantasy!Vitiate's capabilities are the subject of speculation from nobodies.

Your own colored interpretation is all well and good but it's just not enough. There's no contest. The Anchorites stomp.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're being silly.

The Mortis Anchorites are confirmed universal threats. Fantasy!Vitiate is confirmed nothing.

At the end of the day, we have explicit statements of fact from an expert regarding their capabilities whereas fantasy!Vitiate's capabilities are the subject of speculation from nobodies.

Your own colored interpretation is all well and good but it's just not enough. There's no contest. The Anchorites stomp.

I create logical arguments and point out valid problems with your own argument and your only response it to insult me and try to shout that you're right loud enough that no-one notices that you're totally not.... and I'm the one being silly? I don't think that's true.

Being a threat to something doesn't imply you are equal in power to it. Luke was a threat to the Death Star. Luke for moon-buster?????

Either concede that the One's being universal threats doesn't imply anywhere even close to universe-level power or continue acting like a child and shriek that you're right again. I challenge you to surprise me here, but we both know you won't.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll bite, Sinious. Like who?

Sel Makor and Vitiate come to mind. I know for a fact that their hype is not literal. Because their feats and actual depiction tells me otherwise. I also know that these characters' creators' intentions were not creating actual Godlike beings like say, The Living Tribunal from Marvel. They're very much comparable to other force users around them.

Now I know that you are smart enough to depict a universal being in your mind. Would it be anything like the Father? Would it even have a body? Would it even be an individual existence? When you say universal, you're referring to all of existence. You're calling them semi-omnipotent. The Son's lighting is said to be capable of melting mountains. Shouldn't it be planets or star systems at least?

Now, we know how vastly Vitiate increased his power by consuming a planet and 8000 sith lords. Imagine him consuming the Outer Rim for example. He would become a cosmic aura beyond comprehension. But thats why he'll never become a being like that. That is also why Sidious wouldn't end up doing the same thing in time(I learned about this from you if you remember).

We know how powerful Vitiate is atm. Him while x100000000000 more powerful cannot be compared to any other force user's natural potential. Anakin was never meant to be a character of such sort. Nobody is that powerful without amp.

Another thing is, Luke Skywalker. Isn't Luke's potential AT LEAST close to Anakin's? He ended up dying as a human being. Why did he not become a galaxy wide being if not a universal being?

I could go on but you get the point.


Every time I make an argument, you instead of countering them, accuse me of having some kind of an agenda which is what makes debating with you a bit boring tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I create logical arguments

lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
and point out valid problems with your own argument and your only response it to insult me and try to shout that you're right loud enough that no-one notices that you're totally not.... and I'm the one being silly? I don't think that's true.

Where did I insult you? The "nobodies" in my post are a reference to the characters who speculate on what a post-ritual Vitiate might be capable of, not you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being a threat to something doesn't imply you are equal in power to it. Luke was a threat to the Death Star. Luke for moon-buster?????

No, Luke being a threat to the Death Star makes him a threat to the Death Star. I never claimed the Anchorites were "equal in power" to the universe... whatever that means??

Originally posted by Nephthys
Either concede that the One's being universal threats doesn't imply anywhere even close to universe-level power or continue acting like a child and shriek that you're right again. I challenge you to surprise me here, but we both know you won't.

Oh, stop. You're clearly upset given that your post has its foundation in egregious errors in reading comprehension. To recap: (a) I didn't insult you, (b) the Mortis Anchorites are a threat to the universe, (c) Vitiate ain't.

They got this and the Sith get stomped.

Originally posted by Sinious
Sel Makor and Vitiate come to mind. I know for a fact that their hype is not literal. Because their feats and actual depiction tells me otherwise. I also know that these characters' creators' intentions were not creating actual Godlike beings like say, The Living Tribunal from Marvel. They're very much comparable to other force users around them.

Now I know that you are smart enough to depict a universal being in your mind. Would it be anything like the Father? Would it even have a body? Would it even be an individual existence? When you say universal, you're referring to all of existence. You're calling them semi-omnipotent. The Son's lighting is said to be capable of melting mountains. Shouldn't it be planets or star systems at least?

Now, we know how vastly Vitiate increased his power by consuming a planet and 8000 sith lords. Imagine him consuming the Outer Rim for example. He would become a cosmic aura beyond comprehension. But thats why he'll never become a being like that. That is also why Sidious wouldn't end up doing the same thing in time(I learned about this from you if you remember).

We know how powerful Vitiate is atm. Him while x100000000000 more powerful cannot be compared to any other force user's natural potential. Anakin was never meant to be a character of such sort. Nobody is that powerful without amp.

Another thing is, Luke Skywalker. Isn't Luke's potential AT LEAST close to Anakin's? He ended up dying as a human being. Why did he not become a galaxy wide being if not a universal being?

I could go on but you get the point.

First, you do realize that this right here confirms the Vitiate agenda I've accused you of this entire exchange, right?

Second, as you yourself admit, the hype surrounding Vitiate, Sel-Makor, Sidious, etc. is all hyperbolic.

However, the Mortis Anchorites were conceived as manifestations of the Force. That's not hyperbole, that's not unsupported hype, that's not fan-invention. That's intrinsic to the conceptualization of the characters. So when The Father {who creates pocket universes} says that his children threaten the very fabric of the universe, hence their containment at his hands, and the opening narrator regards them as more powerful in the Force than anyone ever encountered before... I'm inclined to believe them.

That's the difference.

Originally posted by Sinious
Every time I make an argument, you instead of countering them, accuse me of having some kind of an agenda which is what makes debating with you a bit boring tbh.

Countering them and accusing you of an agenda aren't mutually exclusive and I do both quite well. I couldn't care less about your agenda or your biases as long as you leash them somewhat. You know how highly I regard Sidious and here I am, saying he'd be stomped right alongside Vitiate.

You claim to find it boring but that's obviously not true and it's plain as day that your agenda is at work here to an unsettling degree.

Wait wait wait wait!

The Father said his children threaten the fabric of the universe? That's not even close to threatening the entire universe! Oh, you complete hooligan!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, you do realize that this right here confirms the Vitiate agenda I've accused you of this entire exchange, right?

Second, as you yourself admit, the hype surrounding Vitiate, Sel-Makor, Sidious, etc. is all hyperbolic.

However, the Mortis Anchorites were conceived as manifestations of the Force. That's not hyperbole, that's not unsupported hype, that's not fan-invention. That's intrinsic to the conceptualization of the characters. So when The Father {who creates pocket universes} says that his children threaten the very fabric of the universe, hence their containment at his hands, and the opening narrator regards them as more powerful in the Force than anyone ever encountered before... I'm inclined to believe them.

That's the difference.

This thread is related to Vitiate and this debate started from him. I don't see how giving him as an example confirms an agenda I might have. :/

Yet everything else other than the accolade you present hints otherwise.

They are more powerful than anyone else, who ever denied that?



lol what is my agenda exactly? To prove Vitiate's superiority over the Ones?

Yup. Fabric, "unleashed a great danger upon the universe," "sow terror through the universe," "wreak havoc upon the universe," and defeating them will "save the universe."

"Universe" would indeed be the button word throughout the arc.

It looks like we're just going to have to agree to disagree, Neph.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup. Fabric, "unleashed a great danger upon the universe," "sow terror through the universe," "wreak havoc upon the universe," and defeating them will "save the universe."

"Universe" would indeed be the button word throughout the arc.

It looks like we're just going to have to agree to disagree, Neph.

You insufferable prick, that's totally deceptive of you. The whole thread you made it sound better than it was.

Wasn't Sidious threatening the fabric of the universe with his Force Storms. He was tearing apart time and space, which is the fabric of the universe so like, yeah. So that's not even that legit of an accolade.

I was about to jack it and go to bed but now you've totally ruffled my jimmies. >:[

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was about to jack it and go to bed
watch?v=xhNneU5shTs

Originally posted by Nephthys
but now you've totally ruffled my jimmies. >:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DGGcdZ4KYbA/T5FeDLPuJJI/AAAAAAAACKo/2ofTef2oC0w/s640/good-good-let-the-jimmies-rustle-through-you.png

I'mma make this quick since I'm about to hit the sack.

Then I'mma go to bed.

haermm

{get it?}

Originally posted by Sinious
This thread is related to Vitiate and this debate started from him. I don't see how giving him as an example confirms an agenda I might have. :/

Originally posted by Sinious
lol what is my agenda exactly? To prove Vitiate's superiority over the Ones?

You claim your agenda is to defend Vitiate's lackluster reputation in these parts. I think your exposure to unflattering opinions of the character has prompted a fairly rigid and extreme reaction {as is often the case with people and deep-seated opinions}. So when threads like these come along and you feel you can successfully make the case that Vitiate > the most powerful Star Wars characters, you're tacitly trumpeting the cause even if this incarnation of the character doesn't "exist" within the mythology.

Put another way, in a news/media paradigm, the ubiquitous presence of the "damn liberal media" has prompted you to be the Fox News of the Vitiate cause.

Bit of armchair psychology there, but I'm pretty perceptive and confident in my reading of your behavior.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yet everything else other than the accolade you present hints otherwise.

They are more powerful than anyone else, who ever denied that?

Determining a character's position based on just feats isn't a winning formula imo. Especially when it's selectively applied. {For example, you do realize how lame Vitiate comes off next to other characters when we just compare feats, right? If we just compared feats, Palps, Starkiller & maybe Nihilus would be the kings of the mountain.}

You have to juggle feats, accolades, and creative intent to come up with the most accurate formula available for determining character placements imo but even this has its flaws.

Under that formula, the Mortis Anchorites are exactly where I put them. Sidious and Vitiate, while crazy powerful, just don't stack up in any incarnation.

Now those are my absolute, raw two cents. Hopefully you understand a bit more though I'm pretty sure we're just retreading old ground at this point.

And while I'm most certainly right and you're most certainly wrong, I must admit for the record that I was also most certainly more aggressive towards Sinious than I have been towards anyone in a long time. It's been a while since I've really been so firm with someone. I apologize if I offended you, Sin. Must be an unusual spike in testosterone.mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'mma make this quick since I'm about to hit the sack.

Then I'mma go to bed.

haermm

{get it?}






Well, the thing is, I at some point believed that Vitiate was more powerful than Sidious. It was when I first joined this site and had much less knowledge on Star Wars. Sidious has always been my favorite character in any fiction I've read so far. I was more into his character than his power though. So I studied his political genius and the alignment with the dark side. I didn't go and study how powerful his lightning is compared to some ancient sith for example. Meanwhile, Vitiate's raw power and his emotionless and elite oratory was what I liked about the character. Yet in time I started learning about Sidious' combatant side which made me realize he is in fact the most powerful sith to ever live. Other than that, I never had crazy intentions about Vitiate.

I don't know for certainty that Vitiate would reach a galactic wide level with the ritual. I believe it but it isnt proven so don't use it as an argument. In this thread which is not created by me, Vitiate is assumed to have gained that power. Now, what bothers me here is that the Ones of Mortis is being hyped to a level which I find to be ridiculous. I've already made my arguments and you already made yours. You haven't really referred to my strongest ones so I'm not convinced. If you wanna keep debating, we can and I'll list my reason for skepticism again.

I place him as the second most powerful sith which is something you agreed with in a chat we had before. I'd rather have him stay there than go up or down. But that is my personal yet sincere feeling.




I can't agree more. The lack of this approach is what turned KMC into a troll pit.


This incarnation of Vitiate is not real and has no bearing or link to any other incarnation of his. So yes, any actualized incarnation of Vitiate or Sidious would utterly be destroyed by the Ones.

The OP creates a scenario where Vitiate is x100000000000000 more stronger than he actually is. In that case, I'll side with him or anyone else who manages to consume the galaxy and amps their powers to that degree.

The Chosen One is never created with the intention of having x1000000000 more potential than Yoda or any other jedi. He was simply, vastly more prodigious but not to that degree. The dialogue in the movies make that clear and you know it.



Appreciated yet no worries. I enjoy tough love but I also enjoy having mutual respect when debating about fictional things. Especially between Sidious fans.

Damn... it was some time since Temp has cleared the house like that. Hats off to you, good sir

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Mortis Anchorites are confirmed universal threats. Fantasy!Vitiate is confirmed nothing.
Bingo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate solo's tbh. A galaxy's worth of power is above even them.

Mortis is supposedly the place where all of the life energies of the universe flows. The Ones stomp.

Well they're not on Mortis. Also just because all it all flows there doesn't mean they command that level of power.

I don't know what to say, Neph. lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well they're not on Mortis. Also just because all it all flows there doesn't mean they command that level of power.

They are Mortis. Or did you miss the entire dimension altering with the Daughter's death.

If Mortis~Universal energies the the Daughter's death altered the fabric of the universe's force energies.

ones and abeloth

Originally posted by Lord Stark
They are Mortis. Or did you miss the entire dimension altering with the Daughter's death.

If Mortis~Universal energies the the Daughter's death altered the fabric of the universe's force energies.

Aren't they connected to it through the throne of balance and the fonts of blah blah? And that's why they affect it?

I mean if that's true then why is Abeloth so shitty outside of Mortis but beat the Son and Daughter together while off it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I mean if that's true then why is Abeloth so shitty outside of Mortis but beat the Son and Daughter together while off it?

Yep, the Children of Mortis were forced to unite against her to defeat her. And we know that she isn't a universal power, not even close.

Another BS I detect in their arguments is Anakin's prime.

Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker had AT LEAST comparable potentials.

Luke Skywalker did not end up being a universal power. So why would Anakin be 10 billion times stronger than Luke at some point? And since we all agree that Anakin at his prime is the Father's equal, I don't see how the Ones of Mortis are universal beings as well.


I guess I'll never get an answer to these as there are none. Still waiting though, Temp.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yep, the Children of Mortis were forced to unite against her to defeat her. And we know that she isn't a universal power, not even close.

Another BS I detect in their arguments is Anakin's prime.

Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker had AT LEAST comparable potentials.

Luke Skywalker did not end up being a universal power. So why would Anakin be 10 billion times stronger than Luke at some point? And since we all agree that Anakin at his prime is the Father's equal, I don't see how the Ones of Mortis are universal beings as well.


I guess I'll never get an answer to these as there are none. Still waiting though, Temp.


The "children of Mortis" were "forced to unite against her" according to a Killik mural in a Legends book.
Nowhere is it canonically declared that Anakin and Luke have "at least comparable potentials." All that Lucas ever said on the subject is that Luke could surpass Palpatine.
You admit that determining a character's worth based only on feats turned KMC into "a troll pit" and yet that's exactly what you're doing here: Luke doesn't have universal power feats so the Mortis Anchorites clearly aren't universal powers.
TCW declares that the Mortis Anchorites are threats to the universe, hence their containment. It's cut-and-dry.

Dude, you can't seriously be entertaining the idea of Luke having universal power feats? His point is generally correct that Anakin and Luke don't even begin to remotely approach that level and never will.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, you can't seriously be entertaining the idea of Luke having universal power feats? His point is generally correct that Anakin and Luke don't even begin to remotely approach that level and never will.

> complains against a feat-only paradigm
> 5 minutes later tries to use a feat-only paradigm

Where did I "entertain the idea of Luke having universal power feats"? What was your major at university, again? mmm

Using one example based off of feats doesn't suggest a feat-only paradigm. Are you going to accuse me of double standards as well if I ever make an single argument that only mentions feats?

English, which was why I was smart enough to not say you were doing that, but rather ask you whether you were by objecting to his point. Though I studied Literature, not Language. I hate Language, spelling and grammar.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

The "children of Mortis" were "forced to unite against her" according to a Killik mural in a Legends book.

And?

'

Isn't it also said that Luke became the Jedi Anakin was supposed to become? Anakin's ultimate destiny was linked to the sith. He was meant to become stronger than Sidious, not to become this uber god that dominates the entire universe. In the films, if Anakin's potential was that above everyone else, they wouldn't just give him to a jedi as an apprentice. They'd build him a freaking temple and start worshipping him.



Exactly. Thats his level. Being above someone like Sidious. Yet Abeloth wasn't 10 billion times stronger than Luke.



What? I never said anything about feats. What else does Luke have to make him a universal being? An accolade? Does the context hint him to be one? More importantly, wouldn't you agree that Luke and Sidious have comparable powers? Don't you think FOTJ Luke vs DE Sidious would at least be a decent fight? Yet you admitted that Sidious is nowhere near the Ones(Since they're universal powers).



Than everyone in SWEU is a threat to the universe. Anakin prime = The father, Anakin prime is comparable to Luke prime, Luke prime is comparable to Sidious prime etc etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Using one example based off of feats doesn't suggest a feat-only paradigm.

Writing off a character being a universal threat because you feel they lack the feats to indicate as much is using a feat-only paradigm.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you going to accuse me of double standards as well if I ever make an single argument that only mentions feats?

I'll accuse you of double standards when you inevitably use an argument hinged on feats regarding a PT character in a way you wouldn't otherwise if the character was, say, Bane.

In other words, when you use double standards, I'll accuse you of using them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
English, which was why I was smart enough to not say you were doing that, but rather ask you whether you were by objecting to his point. Though I studied Literature, not Language. I hate Language, spelling and grammar.

Given that Luke having universal power feats wasn't even remotely implied by my post and I spent previous posts condemning the notion that feats should not solely determine a character's placement, I'm pretty sure the previous post was the very definition of a non-sequitur.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Writing off a character being a universal threat because you feel they lack the feats to indicate as much is using a feat-only paradigm.



I'll accuse you of double standards when you inevitably use an argument hinged on feats regarding a PT character in a way you wouldn't otherwise if the character was, say, Bane.

In other words, when you use double standards, I'll accuse you of using them.



Given that Luke having universal power feats wasn't even remotely implied by my post and I spent previous posts condemning the notion that feats should not solely determine a character's placement, I'm pretty sure the previous post was the very definition of a non-sequitur.

Except he specifically says that it's just another problem he finds with the idea.

Well tough, because at some point I am going to make an argument based on feats. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring everything else though, just that that argument is the thing relevant to the point I'm making or the thing that's convincing me of something. Just because I'm not mentioning other aspects doesn't mean I'm excluding them. Nor does it mean Sinious is. You loon.

So you agree with his point then? Because unless you do think that's a possibility I can't see why you'd object to it.

Originally posted by Sinious
And?

Key words being: "mural" and "Legends." It's an in-universe myth in a continuity that is explicitly non-canon. Canon never was subordinate to the EU and it certainly isn't now that it's under the Legends umbrella.

Originally posted by Sinious
Isn't it also said that Luke became the Jedi Anakin was supposed to become?

More powerful than Sidious, yes. Not that Anakin and Luke's potential were comparable, let alone equitable. Anakin is Father level and Luke is > Palpatine level and there's a vast gulf between Father-level and just-greater-than-Sidious level. Luke can be potentially more powerful than Sidious and still nowhere friggin near Anakin/The Father.

Originally posted by Sinious
Anakin's ultimate destiny was linked to the sith. He was meant to become stronger than Sidious, not to become this uber god that dominates the entire universe.

They're not mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by Sinious
In the films, if Anakin's potential was that above everyone else, they wouldn't just give him to a jedi as an apprentice. They'd build him a freaking temple and start worshipping him.

...According to whom? What does your personal skepticism over the lack of religions surrounding Anakin have to do with anything? And I'll remind you again that the Mortis arc was introduced to the mythology a decade after TPM was released.

Originally posted by Sinious
Exactly. Thats his level. Being above someone like Sidious. Yet Abeloth wasn't 10 billion times stronger than Luke.

Abeloth and Luke are not Anakin or The Father and Legends depictions do not have any bearing on canon ones.

Originally posted by Sinious
What? I never said anything about feats. What else does Luke have to make him a universal being? An accolade? Does the context hint him to be one? More importantly, wouldn't you agree that Luke and Sidious have comparable powers? Don't you think FOTJ Luke vs DE Sidious would at least be a decent fight? Yet you admitted that Sidious is nowhere near the Ones(Since they're universal powers).

Dude... Luke and Sidious are not Anakin/The Father. Why is Anakin/The Father's placement contingent upon a fight between Sidious and Luke or Luke and Abeloth?

*Didn't see this part

Originally posted by Sinious
Than everyone in SWEU is a threat to the universe. Anakin prime = The father, Anakin prime is comparable to Luke prime, Luke prime is comparable to Sidious prime etc etc.

This might be valid if your premises were. But they're not. Anakin/The Father & the Mortis Anchorites are in a whole 'nother world next to even otherwise enormously powerful characters like Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except he specifically says that it's just another problem he finds with the idea.

Referring to you, brohan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well tough, because at some point I am going to make an argument based on feats. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring everything else though, just that that argument is the thing relevant to the point I'm making or the thing that's convincing me of something. Just because I'm not mentioning other aspects doesn't mean I'm excluding them. Nor does it mean Sinious is. You loon.

Yes, I'm well aware that you'll continue to make liberal use of double standards. My question to you in the other thread was more or less rhetorical. You'll make them, I'll probably do that thing I do when you make them, you'll get angry with me for "lecturing you," and I'll respond with the "well tough" precedent you graciously provided here, you'll get even more irritated and expect me to be more courteous with you than you are with me, I'll point out that that's merely another double standard, your anger will increase by orders of magnitude and you'll probably threaten to block me because if I was really your friend I wouldn't do something that irritates you and I'll just redirect the same question to you. It will be a vortex of anger and snark and the status quo will remain unchanged.

It's predictable, but there we are.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So you agree with his point then? Because unless you do think that's a possibility I can't see why you'd object to it.

Do I think Luke's been depicted as a universal power? Obviously not.

Luke had the potential to become greater than Vader and Palpatine, but, according to Lucas, Vader no longer had the potential that he once did as Anakin.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, I'm well aware that you'll continue to make liberal use of double standards. My question to you in the other thread was more or less rhetorical. You'll make them, I'll probably do that thing I do when you make them, you'll get angry with me for "lecturing you," and I'll respond with the "well tough" precedent you graciously provided here, you'll get even more irritated and expect me to be more courteous with you than you are with me, I'll point out that that's merely another double standard, your anger will increase by orders of magnitude and you'll probably threaten to block me because if I was really your friend I wouldn't do something that irritates you and I'll just redirect the same question to you. It will be a vortex of anger and snark and the status quo will remain unchanged.

It's predictable, but there we are.

That's not a double standard though. Just because I make arguments that solely focus on feats doesn't mean I'm excluding other methods of argument. All it means is that I find that line of comparison compelling and don't find other evidence etc relevant enough to mention. I don't understand how you think that if someone only uses feats for a single argument that they're suggesting only using feats to determine something forever. Just because you don't mention something doesn't mean you specifically want to exclude it.

Also you've always been far ruder to me than I've been to you. You're constantly talking down to me, suggesting that I'm stupid or inferior to you and others and outright laughing at, mocking or trying to humiliate me. The things you find annoying about me are completely unintentional on my part.

Is that the quote you're referring to, Sinious? The one where Lucas stated that Vader needed Luke to overthrow Sidious, because he no longer had to chance to do so on his own? If so, then you would have to think that Luke's potential surpassed Anakin's, which Lucas and other sources stated as being the greatest. Unless you think that Vader no longer having the potential to beat Sidious, whereas Luke did, implies parity between Luke's and Anakin's potential, which it doesn't.

I don't know what other quote you could be talking about.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's not a double standard though. Just because I make arguments that solely focus on feats doesn't mean I'm excluding other methods of argument. All it means is that I find that line of comparison compelling and don't find other evidence etc relevant enough to mention. I don't understand how you think that if someone only uses feats for a single argument that they're suggesting only using feats to determine something forever. Just because you don't mention something doesn't mean you specifically want to exclude it.

That's not what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also you've always been far ruder to me than I've been to you. You're constantly talking down to me, suggesting that I'm stupid or inferior to you and others and outright laughing at, mocking or trying to humiliate me.

I don't think you're stupid at all. I just think dishonesty is a staple of your arguments and has been for some time. If I mock anything, it's that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Is that the quote you're referring to, Sinious? The one where Lucas stated that Vader needed Luke to overthrow Sidious, because he no longer had to chance to do so on his own? If so, then you would have to think that Luke's potential surpassed Anakin's, which Lucas and other sources stated as being the greatest. Unless you think that Vader no longer having the potential to beat Sidious, whereas Luke did, implies parity between Luke's and Anakin's potential, which it doesn't.

I don't know what other quote you could be talking about.

I just remember a quote being used a lot when the potential of Luke and Anakin's were being compared in another thread. Some people believed that they had the exact same potential levels(which I disagree with) and used a quote that said Luke became the ultimate jedi that Anakin was supposed to become. I'm not sure where it comes from though.

Originally posted by Sinious
I just remember a quote being used a lot when the potential of Luke and Anakin's were being compared in another thread. Some people believed that they had the exact same potential levels(which I disagree with) and used a quote that said Luke became the ultimate jedi that Anakin was supposed to become. I'm not sure where it comes from though.


I'm not sure either. But even that doesn't suggest he had Anakin's potential.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Key words being: "mural" and "Legends." It's an in-universe myth in a continuity that is explicitly non-canon. Canon never was subordinate to the EU and it certainly isn't now that it's under the Legends umbrella.

More powerful than Sidious, yes. Not that Anakin and Luke's potential were comparable, let alone equitable. Anakin is Father level and Luke is > Palpatine level and there's a vast gulf between Father-level and just-greater-than-Sidious level. Luke can be potentially more powerful than Sidious and still nowhere friggin near Anakin/The Father.

They're not mutually exclusive.

...According to whom? What does your personal skepticism over the lack of religions surrounding Anakin have to do with anything? And I'll remind you again that the Mortis arc was introduced to the mythology a decade after TPM was released.

Abeloth and Luke are not Anakin or The Father and Legends depictions do not have any bearing on canon ones.

Dude... Luke and Sidious are not Anakin/The Father. Why is Anakin/The Father's placement contingent upon a fight between Sidious and Luke or Luke and Abeloth?

*Didn't see this part

This might be valid if your premises were. But they're not. Anakin/The Father & the Mortis Anchorites are in a whole 'nother world next to even otherwise enormously powerful characters like Sidious.

Are you saying that TCW retconned the entire movie franchise?


Anakin and Luke's potential can be compared by the progress they made. Anakin was around 22 in ROTS and he had received training for 12 years and spent years amongst thousands of jedi during their prime.
Luke had much more limited training and in similar number of years. They're progress is very much comparable since ROTJ Luke and ROTS Anakin are comparable.

Anakin was never meant to become an all mighty god that could dominate the universe it self. He was gonna be the greatest jedi or sith ever. That's it. That was the whole point of the movies and you are telling me that 3 episodes from a show changed that?

You think ROTJ Luke~ROTS Anakin? http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/haermm.gif

http://makeameme.org/media/created/THEN-YOU-ARE-04beal.jpg

Did you even read the discussion taking place?

If you think that ROTS Anakin is a deity so above ROTJ Luke that they aren't comparable at all, if you think that ROTS Anakin is so much above Luke that he could obliterate him with a mere thought, then you are lost.

Originally posted by Sinious
Did you even read the discussion taking place?

If you think that ROTS Anakin is a deity so above ROTJ Luke that they aren't comparable at all, if you think that ROTS Anakin is so much above Luke that he could obliterate him with a mere thought, then you are lost.


Dave Filoni (G-Canon Source): I think Luke would lose to any of the Council Members.

Even if you think that's bullshit Luke would likely lose to the top tier councilors.
Anakin on the other hand shits on most of the council. Anyone not named Yoda would lose to Anakin sans perhaps Mace. ROTJ Luke would get godstomped by ROTS Kenobi.

Filoni gave his opinion, not something that is fact.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dave Filoni (G-Canon Source): I think Luke would lose to any of the Council Members.

Even if you think that's bullshit Luke would likely lose to the top tier councilors.
Anakin on the other hand shits on most of the council. Anyone not named Yoda would lose to Anakin sans perhaps Mace. ROTJ Luke would get godstomped by ROTS Kenobi.

LMAO Read in what context I said they are comparable.

In that sense even Yoda and Ahsoka are comparable.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Filoni gave his opinion, not something that is fact.

Please. Bitches here praise Karpshyan's quotes as law, Filoni is a far greater authority than he'll ever be and frankly seems to be GL's successor (worked in an executive role in both the most recent additions to the canon). Its a more valid opinion than anyone on this board.




1. ROTS Anakin is far far above ROTJ Luke
2. That's not even close to max potential Anakin so...red herring.

Originally posted by Lord Stark

1. ROTS Anakin is far far above ROTJ Luke
2. That's not even close to max potential Anakin so...red herring.

1. No he is not.
2. And thats not even close to max potential Luke.

But more importantly, are you saying that Anakin's potential is billions of times greater than Luke's?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Please. Bitches here praise Karpshyan's quotes as law, Filoni is a far greater authority than he'll ever be and frankly seems to be GL's successor (worked in an executive role in both the most recent additions to the canon). Its a more valid opinion than anyone on this board.




1. ROTS Anakin is far far above ROTJ Luke
2. That's not even close to max potential Anakin so...red herring.

He said

"I think" meaning his own personal thoughts, it's his opinion. He doesn't really seem to know what Luke is capable of, even by ROTJ.

Heck he didn't even know, Luke referred to himself twice as a Jedi before telling Palpatine. One in the holo message to Jabba and again when he was talking to Yoda.



and



Right in the movies, dialogue right there. But Filoni said Luke referring himself as a Jedi to Palps was the first time.

Originally posted by Sinious
1. No he is not.
2. And thats not even close to max potential Luke.

But more importantly, are you saying that Anakin's potential is billions of times greater than Luke's?

1. Yes he is are you serious? Anakin trained over a decade in the prime of the Jedi Order. He's the third best swordsman in the golden age of the order. Compared to Luke who wouldn't even rank in the top 10 of that era, yes Anakin quite frankly could take two ROTJ Lukes.
2. Let me put this to you bluntly. PRIME Luke is way WAY outgunned by Abeloth. Anakin casually subjugated two beings who combined can threaten her NOT EVEN CLOSE TO HIS MAXIMUM POTENTIAL.

Billions? Don't be ridiculous. But its multiple magnitudes. Luke is stated to be 1/12 of Abeloth's power. The Father who's more powerful than Abeloth is still inferior to max potential Anakin imo.

Then why isn't ROTS Anakin at least 12 times better than ROTJ Luke?

Originally posted by Sinious
Then why isn't ROTS Anakin at least 12 times better than ROTJ Luke?

Anakin puts far more limits on himself than Luke does.

LMAO very universal indeed.

I demand a personal debate between Dave Filoni and Drew Karpyshyn. Anakin Skywalker vs Revan.

Originally posted by Sinious
LMAO very universal indeed.

Way to put words in my mouth, ROTS Anakin was never universal.

Stark, don't be dense. Lucas said that Anakin's potenial was merely twice that od Sidious. No way could he ever reach One status off of Mortis.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Stark, don't be dense. Lucas said that Anakin's potenial was merely twice that od Sidious. No way could he ever reach One status off of Mortis.

Up to date canon source material>10 year old kinda canon statement

Not to mention the Infinities article has Skywalker easily stomp Yoda and Sidious at not even max potential. The Father can only be replaced by Anakin. The location has nothing to do with it. Unless you think The Father off of Mortis is only 200% Sidious.

Lucas > everything.

Lol infinites.

Both Stark and Nepthys make very interesting points. Stark makes the point that Anakin's possible level of power as it relates to him surpassing the Father is certainly above 2X Sidious, while Nephthys asserts that Mortis is somehow instrumental to Anakin acquiring such a level of power.

I do personally find the idea of Father being only 2X Sidious to be an absurd one myself.

Anakin only subjugated the Son and Daughter by tapping into Mortis, yeah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lucas > everything.

Lol infinites.

No he's not. Not anymore. That's Legends continuity. According to the current canon only the Movies, TCWs, and Rebels is canon as well as anything released after continuity update. Everything else is ranked under the Legends continuity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin only subjugated the Son and Daughter by tapping into Mortis, yeah.

Both Anakin and the Father are very similar beings. The Father's origins are unknown but Anakin was created by the Force itself bring balance. The Son and Daughter were also on Mortis tapping into its power. Why would Anakin being on Mortis alter him more than the Ones?

Lucas' opinion didn't suddenly become invalid. He was the man who freaking created Anakin and personally oversaw the Mortis arc you're basing everything on. His word on the matter is still law and at the least it carries a hell of a lot more weight that your personal interpretation.

The Father states why himself, Anakin is the Chosen One. As a being born from the Force, it's only natural that he'd be exceedingly effective at using the energies of Mortis, where the Force of the universe flows.

Feats for farmer Vitiate?

It could be that since Anakin turned down the opportunity to be an anchorite, he lost a one time chance to become as powerful as The Father. In the commentary of the trilogy, Filoni stated that he purposely left the story up to interpretation.

However, if we accept them as being real, then no being aside from Anakin, had it in them to be equals with them. Their powers are beyond sith and jedi comprehension. Just one of them can cause destruction to the universe if released from Mortis. Vitiate being a farmer and everything he desired all at once (or whatever) doesn't come close to that Kind of power.

One Anchorite can manipulate weather and the entire environment of Mortis. Like Stark said. Mortis is a conduit through which the power of the entire universe flows, and that is power beyond a single galaxy. If they can manipulate Mortis to such an extent then they could manipulate galaxies without a problem.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Feats for farmer Vitiate?

Well he absorbed an entire galaxy. And if we go by our galaxy that is approximately 200 billion suns worth of energy plus the actual Force power contained within it so that's probably a veritable shitgigaton of power.

Also the power of the universe may have flowed through it but Mortis certainly didn't contain all the universe's energy, it was just a focal point for it and place that connected to it all. Surely?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he absorbed an entire galaxy. And if we go by our galaxy that is approximately 200 billion suns worth of energy plus the actual Force power contained within it so that's probably a veritable shitgigaton of power.


He did so through a ritual that was empowered by billions of deaths. Or something.

Plus, would he still hold that power after the ritual, or use it for something, like, being omnipresence and such to one galaxy? I mean, he absorbed the power of hundreds of sith, yet the power only served to increase his life.

Even if Mortis didn't hold all of the univers' power at once, it would still hold power far beyond one single galaxy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lucas > everything.

Except when he says the PT is the golden age of the Jedi, right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lucas' opinion didn't suddenly become invalid. He was the man who freaking created Anakin and personally oversaw the Mortis arc you're basing everything on. His word on the matter is still law and at the least it carries a hell of a lot more weight that your personal interpretation.

It didn't become invalid, but it certainly isn't law. Its a 10+ year old arbitrary statement made to simply say 'Anakin has the potential to surpass Sidious'. Even if we do treat it as law him saying 'Anakin had the potential to be 200% of Sidious' does not mean that Anakin could only be 200% of Sidious.



Better than the universal beings who have resided there for millennia?
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DQJzK3QQl4k/hqdefault.jpg

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except when he says the PT is the golden age of the Jedi, right?

Zing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he absorbed an entire galaxy. And if we go by our galaxy that is approximately 200 billion suns worth of energy plus the actual Force power contained within it so that's probably a veritable shitgigaton of power.

Also the power of the universe may have flowed through it but Mortis certainly didn't contain all the universe's energy, it was just a focal point for it and place that connected to it all. Surely?

And there are nearly a hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe... Also why are we assuming that Vitiate is going to absorb the energy of stars now?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dave Filoni (G-Canon Source): I think Luke would lose to any of the Council Members.

Sorry, no. Filoni isn't a canon source, let alone G-Canon one.

M0WcH-Y9lcg

0.25. The Wrath's vision of Vitiate's ritual going off.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He did so through a ritual that was empowered by billions of deaths. Or something.

Plus, would he still hold that power after the ritual, or use it for something, like, being omnipresence and such to one galaxy? I mean, he absorbed the power of hundreds of sith, yet the power only served to increase his life.

Even if Mortis didn't hold all of the univers' power at once, it would still hold power far beyond one single galaxy.

That doesn't matter, he still got the energy.

He doesn't mention anything he's going to use the power for. The first ritual did have a purpose by he doesn't need to use the second one for anything else than being untouchably powerful.

Nah.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except when he says the PT is the golden age of the Jedi, right?

That statement never stopped being a thing that was real. What exactly the statement means and what Lucas was referring to though, is open to interpretation through examination of it however. That's always been my stance.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
It didn't become invalid, but it certainly isn't law. Its a 10+ year old arbitrary statement made to simply say 'Anakin has the potential to surpass Sidious'. Even if we do treat it as law him saying 'Anakin had the potential to be 200% of Sidious' does not mean that Anakin could only be 200% of Sidious.

Better than the universal beings who have resided there for millennia?
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DQJzK3QQl4k/hqdefault.jpg

It's certainly more law than your opinion, bro. There's nothing that contradicts it and it completely matches the facts. Anakin didn't have 20 times the midichlorians than anyone else in history, theres no ****ing way he was that powerful. He was at most twice as powerful as Sidious as Lucas said. Also yeah it pretty much does mean that's his potential. If someone says "he could become about twice as powerful as the Emperor" they don't really mean "between twice to twelve times as powerful."

It doesn't matter if you don't think so because he very clearly did when he controlled them. Theres no mention or hint of Anakin tapping into his potential in that scene, the only thing that's indicated is that he tapped into Mortis.

Vitiate implies basically that he'd be everywhere in the galaxy at once, just enjoying life and doing everything he ever dreamed of. Obviously that would require an awful amount of power, perhaps...galactic level power. I mean, planetary level power did a little more than just increase his life. What makes you think one galaxy--a spec in the ocean compared to the entire universe--would put Vitiate on the level of universal beings? Yes, just by manipulating Mortis, the ones are operating on a universal scale. The son would warp Vitiate's galaxy and toy with him. They can warp Mortis--a focal point in which the power of the entire universe flows, and it's only there that their own powers can be contained according to the father. Outside of Mortis their powers are too great for the universe to handle, which is why they had to withdraw from it.

Originally posted by Nephthys


That statement never stopped being a thing that was real. What exactly the statement means and what Lucas was referring to though, is open to interpretation through examination of it however. That's always been my stance.

Open to interpretation? Lol so is the other conversation.





He was that powerful. TPM also implies Yoda's and Anakins aren't that far apart but that the boy has a higher count that he does. Anakin certainly doesn't have twice the count of Yoda and yet by your own assertion he'd still be 200% of Sidious he should.

It was an arbitrary statement. If I say Muhammad Ali is twice as strong as Joe Frazier, its not meant to be taken literally. Also this quote was made before the Ones even existed.

Originally posted by ares834
Sorry, no. Filoni isn't a canon source, let alone G-Canon one.

Yes he is. Filoni directed TCWs which has the same level of canonicity as the movies, is in charge of the Rebels project which has the same. He has regular convos with GL. How is he not a canon source?

The actual statement about Luke doesn't seem to be concrete canon, because Filoni never said specifically and concretely that Luke would get his ass kicked, he said he thought he would.

Because Ned, picking and choosing statements that conform to your personal view of Star Wars and dismissing those that don't is all the rage here these days.

Double standards my friend, this is how far this section has fallen.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because Ned, picking and choosing statements that conform to your personal view of Star Wars and dismissing those that don't is all the rage here these days.

Double standards my friend, this is how far this section has fallen.

Dany, I actually don't really believe the Luke is that low. The purpose illustrate how far he was from Anakin. Neph sucks though.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate implies basically that he'd be everywhere in the galaxy at once, just enjoying life and doing everything he ever dreamed of. Obviously that would require an awful amount of power, perhaps...galactic level power. I mean, planetary level power did a little more than just increase his life. What makes you think one galaxy--a spec in the ocean compared to the entire universe--would put Vitiate on the level of universal beings? Yes, just by manipulating Mortis, the ones are operating on a universal scale. The son would warp Vitiate's galaxy and toy with him. They can warp Mortis--a focal point in which the power of the entire universe flows, and it's only there that their own powers can be contained according to the father. Outside of Mortis their powers are too great for the universe to handle, which is why they had to withdraw from it.

No one said Vitiate would become a universal being by consuming a galaxy.

But some people here make it sound like The Ones are as powerful as the force itself. They have vague accolades that put them on that level yet I've never seen you so eager to take that kind of an hype this seriously.

The Son can melt mountains with his lightning, shape planets' environments etc. They are not semi-omnipotent or omnipresent or omniscient. Not even close. They are individuals of great power. Greater than any sith/jedi. But that's it.

More importantly, I'd like to ask you these 2 questions: Do you think that Luke at his peak is 1/12 of a being that is comparable to Universal deities? And do you believe that Anakin's potential is at least 12 times greater than Lukes?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dany, I actually don't really believe the Luke is that low. The purpose illustrate how far he was from Anakin. Neph sucks though.

I agree actually, infact I agree with Filoni and have always believe that Luke was certainly not on council tier by ROTJ. Though the ease at which he replicates Vader's style is frightening.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I agree actually, infact I agree with Filoni and have always believe that Luke was certainly not on council tier by ROTJ. Though the ease at which he replicates Vader's style is frightening.

Yeah, but Luke ain't below Coleman Trebor lol. But yeah people like Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, would likely take him to town.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Open to interpretation? Lol so is the other conversation.

I'm pretty sure there's only one way to interpret "Anakin lost a lot of his potential, he could have become twice as powerful as Sidious." Pretty sure he also says that Luke could become what Anakin wasn't able to, stating that Luke possessed Anakin's potential more or less in tact and not in fact, 12 times less than him as you're so bizarrely arguing.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He was that powerful. TPM also implies Yoda's and Anakins aren't that far apart but that the boy has a higher count that he does. Anakin certainly doesn't have twice the count of Yoda and yet by your own assertion he'd still be 200% of Sidious he should.

It was an arbitrary statement. If I say Muhammad Ali is twice as strong as Joe Frazier, its not meant to be taken literally. Also this quote was made before the Ones even existed.

He wasn't even close and he never could have been off of Mortis. His count clearly was greatly bigger than anyone else's, but it also wasn't so immense that he was 20 times that of everyone else. Also I thought Yoda's count was higher than Sidious' it's just that he's retardedly old. Regardless though there's plenty of reasons to think that Anakin was powerful within reason and none to suggest he was a dozen times greater than anyone else.

If that's an arbitrary statement then so is the Prime of the Jedi crap. Lucas was making a direct comparison to Luke and Sidious in order to make a point, I don't see why it's so arbitrary. And Lucas had a big hand in making the One's so his vision is still very relevant to the facts.

SWTOR Encyclopedia reveals that Emperor Vitiate would surpass every being in power after completing his final ritual, become omnipotent with the potential to do anything.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
One Anchorite can manipulate weather and the entire environment of Mortis. Like Stark said.
So did Emperor Vitiate. On Dromund Kaas.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mortis is a conduit through which the power of the entire universe flows, and that is power beyond a single galaxy. If they can manipulate Mortis to such an extent then they could manipulate galaxies without a problem.
Celestials built Mortis. Maybe this ancient relic grants anchornites great power. This explains Anakin's ability to overwhelm both Son and Daughter on Mortis.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Outside of Mortis their powers are too great for the universe to handle, which is why they had to withdraw from it.
No.

Abeloth forced them to flee to Mortis, an ancient relic of Celestials.

I take it that you haven't read all novels featuring Abeloth properly.

I can't believe how many replies these threads get, I always hate these silly ones where there's absolutely no way of telling. Vitiate wankers claim he will level solar systems with a fart and Vitiate haters claim the ritual is very over exaggerated. There's no way to tell, these threads blow.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he is. Filoni directed TCWs which has the same level of canonicity as the movies, is in charge of the Rebels project which has the same. He has regular convos with GL. How is he not a canon source?

Because he isn't as per the LFL's canon policy. He speaks with some authority. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Trocity
I can't believe how many replies these threads get, I always hate these silly ones where there's absolutely no way of telling. Vitiate wankers claim he will level solar systems with a fart and Vitiate haters claim the ritual is very over exaggerated. There's no way to tell, these threads blow.

Actually, the OP is assuming that Vitiate would achieve what he wants to do and all the arguments are based on that. So "Vitiate haters" are saying that The Ones are still above him even though he would multiply his power by billions.

The 2 problems I have with some of the arguments here are Anakin having the potential to become a universal deity and the Ones being a universal deity.

Abeloth and Luke Skywalker already have refuted their claims but they choose to ignore it. :/

So your theories are better than their theories? That's what I took from that. Both are not grounded in anything but opinion.

Not exactly. We have statements about Anakin, Luke and Abeloth that present them (and by extension the Ones) as far lesser than what Stark etc is arguing them to be. It's not mere opinions of ours.

And depending on how much stock you put in it, Legend is correct in that Swtore clearly states that were Vitiate to succeed in his ritual "the Emperor will conquer death itself and become the most powerful being in all of galactic history."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not exactly. We have statements about Anakin, Luke and Abeloth that present them (and by extension the Ones) as far lesser than what Stark etc is arguing them to be. It's not mere opinions of ours.

And we have statements saying the opposite. Who cares? Arguing hypotheticals based on nothing gets you nothing.

Again, another hypothetical. These threads are pointless because they are based on literally nothing.

I don't see any statements.

It's hardly hypothetical if a source directly states what would happen. :T

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So your theories are better than their theories? That's what I took from that. Both are not grounded in anything but opinion.

Abeloth being like only 12 times stronger than Luke isn't my opinion. Anakin not having 12 times more potential than Luke is also not my opinion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure there's only one way to interpret "Anakin lost a lot of his potential, he could have become twice as powerful as Sidious." Pretty sure he also says that Luke could become what Anakin wasn't able to, stating that Luke possessed Anakin's potential more or less in tact and not in fact, 12 times less than him as you're so bizarrely arguing.

He didn't say Anakin could have been up to 200% as powerful as Sidious. He just said he could have been 200% as powerful as Sidious. Its obvious that he wasn't talking about power when Abeloth who's inferior to Father is clearly >>>> Luke when Anakin's potential is equal to or greater than the Father's. He stated Luke is what Anakin could have been. He didn't say Luke becomes as powerful as Anakin could have been. Its absurd to think that Luke would have the same potential as Anakin anyway considering he's a natural birth not a birth through the force itself.




You have yet to explain why Anakin is unique on Mortis. You yourself have argued that a Force Nexus increases everyone's power an equal step rather than proportionately with their connection to the force as I do. AND EVEN IF we were to entertain that theory there's no proof Skywalker's connection to the force is greater than the Father's. As for this midichlorians argument. No not really. Kenobi says 'its over 20,000 not even Master Yoda has a count that high'. Not 'its over 20,000 that's over double Master Yoda's. And there's no proof of ANYONE's Midichlorian level sans Anakin so the point is moot.



Vision's change. So even if he meant what you are saying and Anakin's potential is exactly 200% of Sidious (which its not) that was well over 10 years before the Ones even existed and Anakin's full power was explored. Its like using a President's campaign slogan in as evidence of how he's changed foreign policy. The golden age of the Jedi quote is essential to the plot because it heightens the stakes of the entire PT plot. If the Jedi were on decline and would have dissolved anyway its not nearly as important of a plot, Sidious just helped it along a hundred years early. Anakin being 200% of Sidious or 1200% of Sidious changes nothing. The point of that statement is that Anakin would whoop Sidious' wrinkly ass at max power.