Wyyrlok and Ulic vs. Zannah and HoT

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Stigma
Neutral setting.

No amp/prep time.

Who wins?

Nephthys
Team 2.

Zannah > Wyyrlok
HoT > Wyyrlok
Zannah > Ulic
HoT > Ulic

carthage
Wyyrlok is a weak link

Ulic can stomp Zannah, and kill the Hero in a good fight but he's out with Wyyrlok as a teammate

Nephthys
Ulic has a lot of trauma and guilt. He was easily turned to the darkside due to his mental weakness. She can mindhax him.

ILS
He was turned to the dark side because he had Sith poison pumped into him after enduring hours of torture, along with his master dying and what not. He resisted mental probing from Aleema and Satal so I doubt his mental fortitude could be considered weak.

Nephthys
Weak in comparison to Bane and Zannah levels of mental fortitude.

Bane considers hours of torture a refreshing massage.

carthage
You don't need Zannah or Bane mental levels of fortitude to resist TP attacks?

Zannah is a lesser duelist than Ulic, she'd lost by virtue of that while he could resist her spells as per the feats ILS listed.

Nephthys
Resisting Aleema and Satal doesn't mean you can resist Zannah. Those two pale in comparison to Kaan, let alone Zannah. laughing

Ulic would never get to engage Zannah in a duel.

carthage
She has to gather her energies in order to unleash an attack



Ulic would never give her the chance to use them thumb up, and Ulic has mental resistance feats so there is no reason her spells would give her any victory as opposed to relying on her dueling skill

Nephthys
No, she doesn't. You keep repeating this myth over and over and it's always been refuted. Yeah, Zannah can't attack while engaged in a duel just like pretty much every force user can't use it while getting their defenses hammered at. Yet she only needed Sarro to quickly glance away to use it on him. And in DoE she states she can use it nigh-instantly:

"She could, and had, rip the minds of her enemies apart with a simple thought and a gesture."

And proves it by using it on Harth as he charged her from at most a few meters away. Just like lightning or TK she can gather and unleash her mental attack with a simple inclination and gesture.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, she doesn't. You keep repeating this myth over and over and it's always been refuted. Yeah, Zannah can't attack while engaged in a duel just like pretty much every force user can't use it while getting their defenses hammered at. Yet she only needed Sarro to quickly glance away to use it on him. And in DoE she states she can use it nigh-instantly:

"She could, and had, rip the minds of her enemies apart with a simple thought and a gesture."

And proves it by using it on Harth as he charged her from at most a few meters away.

Yeah, Zannah's powers increased tremendously from ROT to DOE

carthage
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, she doesn't. You keep repeating this myth over and over and it's always been refuted. Yeah, Zannah can't attack while engaged in a duel just like pretty much every force user can't use it while getting their defenses hammered at. Yet she only needed Sarro to quickly glance away to use it on him. And in DoE she states she can use it nigh-instantly:

"She could, and had, rip the minds of her enemies apart with a simple thought and a gesture."

And proves it by using it on Harth as he charged her from at most a few meters away. Just like lightning or TK she can gather and unleash her mental attack with a simple inclination and gesture.

Except the part where the text says she had to gather her power thumb up. Nice picking and choosing your quotes though. Ulic is a relentless fighter and more fast and skilled than Sarro, there is no reason he'd give her any chance to use them. There is also nothing preventing her from getting sent flying by Ulic's telekinesis either.

Nephthys
Also:

"Zannah shook her elbow free of Cyndra's grasp and raised her shackled hands before her face. Weaving her ringers in a complex pattern in the air, she reached out with the Force and plunged deep inside the Chiss woman's mind to find her secret, most primal fears. Buried in her subconscious were nameless horrors: abominations and creatures of nightmare never meant to see the light of day. Drawing on the power of Sith sorcery, Zannah plucked them out and brought them to life one by one.

The entire process took less than a second. In that time Cyndra had drawn her weapon, but instead of pointing it at Zannah she suddenly screamed and aimed it high in the air above her, firing wildly at demons conjured from her own mind that only she could see."

carthage
Which has nothing to do with a powerful force sensitive like Ulic who resisted hours of torture/mental probing by Aleema Keto?

Bad example much, Cyndra isn't even force sensitive and has no mental resistance feats and neither does Harth.

Emperordmb
Obviously if anyone with mental resistance feats could just shrug off Zannah's illusions, neither Zannah nor Bane would've considered them a threat to him.

carthage
I never said they weren't a threat, only that its pretty obvious that she has to gather her power to use them and that in text she's had problems utilizing them against relentless duelists that've pressured them whether its Bane or Sarro. They can also be resisted, which people tend to forget due to the Zannah wanking.

Ulic's case would be no different than theres, only he is better than either of them and would kill her where Bane failed to do so

Nephthys
Originally posted by carthage
Except the part where the text says she had to gather her power thumb up. Nice picking and choosing your quotes though. Ulic is a relentless fighter and more fast and skilled than Sarro, there is no reason he'd give her any chance to use them. There is also nothing preventing her from getting sent flying by Ulic's telekinesis either.

That's good carthage. Like most trolls you've mastered the art of repeating your failed point over and over again in the hope that someone will be thick enough to believe it. It says she needs to gather it but it doesn't state how long that takes. As I've shown, its near instant and perfectly fast enough to do before a charging opponent gets to her. Its no different from gathering your power to shoot lightning or any other fast force attack.

Ulics not fast enough to blitz Zannah before she can raise her freaking hand. And what's his TK feats?

Originally posted by carthage
Which has nothing to do with a powerful force sensitive like Ulic who resisted hours of torture/mental probing by Aleema Keto?

Bad example much, Cyndra isn't even force sensitive and has no mental resistance feats and neither does Harth.

I posted it as proof of how fast it takes her. The whole process of shaking free from Cyndra and using the spell took less than a second. And this is just RoT Zannah. As seen in DoE she can do it with a mere thought and gesture.

carthage
The only failed point is you constantly reiterating that she can use them when the text says she has to gather her power.Also keep denying that offensive fighters can keep her at bay and prevent her from using them thumb up. Bane prevented her from using them and so did Sarro by constantly assaulting her defense. There is no reason to believe Ulic would give her any opportunity too before he drives his blade into her.



He's blasted back Cay/Tott Doneeta at once.

Nephthys
Originally posted by carthage
The only failed point is you constantly reiterating that she can use them when the text says she has to gather her power. Also keep denying that offensive fighters can keep her at bay and prevent her from using them thumb up. Bane prevented her from using them and so did Sarro by constantly assaulting her defense. There is no reason to believe Ulic would give her any opportunity too before he drives his blade into her.



He's blasted back Cay/Tott Doneeta at once.

And how long does it take for her to do that carthage? She does it in less than a second on Cyndra, she does it in the space of a mere glance to Sarro, she does it before Harth can take a few steps, she does it before Bane can stop her, she says herself all she needs is a thought and gesture. That's it. It's just as fast as a Force Push. Ulic needs to get to her first. He won't be able to before she uses it. And even then as seen against Bane, even injured and while on the ground she can successfully disengage and get enough space to cast the spell.

Well actually:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4250989-overpowers+tot+and+cay.jpg

It was part of a process that had been building for a while. Not a straight TK feat. And that's nothing to Zannah.

Q99
I'll note mindstuff is not only her specialty, but his teammate's as well.

Originally posted by carthage
Wyyrlok is a weak link
Ulic can stomp Zannah, and kill the Hero in a good fight but he's out with Wyyrlok as a teammate


He is? He did pretty darn well against Krayt, and he won a sorcery duel with Andeddu.


The way I picture this going is Zannah and 'lok get locked in a sorcery duel until the winner between the two sword types is decided, and then they cut down the opposing sorcerer.


And my money there is on Tython.

AncientPower
Ulic not only resisted the mental attacks of the Ketos he resisted King Ommin's Force attacks as a whole and without a connection to the Force was so mentally strong that he became one with the Force regardless.

His speed feats include generating almost half a dozen after-images and without any Force augmentation fighting at the same speed as dark Sylvar, someone who could blitz Force-enhanced Massassi abominations. Last but not least he has blitzed Warb Null and Ommin.

His dueling skill is on par with Exar Kun's despite a shrapnel injury and is routinely held in high regard as a Jedi Guardian by characters across the eras. Even Anakin Skywalker recognised him and his skill.

Force feats are sparse by comparison but he is certainly very powerful. As a matter of fact he has been used as a benchmark for Darth Sidious,
stating that even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine's power.

He is probably the strongest character here.

Trocity
Wyyrlok is better than Zannah.

Nephthys
No, he isn't.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll note mindstuff is not only her specialty, but his teammate's as well.

Not to the same degree. And I'd like to see him try mental attacks on Tython.

Originally posted by Q99
He is? He did pretty darn well against Krayt, and he won a sorcery duel with Andeddu.

In comparison to the other combatants? Yeah, he's the weakest.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ulic not only resisted the mental attacks of the Ketos he resisted King Ommin's Force attacks as a whole and without a connection to the Force was so mentally strong that he became one with the Force regardless.

Like I said, the Keto's aren't in the same league as Kaan, let alone Zannah, when it comes to mental attacks. For what it's worth, the HoT also has immense telepathic ability, able to dominate Tol Braga. Braga is the only Jedi or Sith to have ever completely overcome Vitiate's mental domination over time, so his will is pretty dang good. Ommin is also not as good as Zannah, especially in terms of mental attacks.

I'm pretty sure that last thing has nothing to do with willpower, lol.

Originally posted by AncientPower
His speed feats include generating almost half a dozen after-images and without any Force augmentation fighting at the same speed as dark Sylvar, someone who could blitz Force-enhanced Massassi abominations. Last but not least he has blitzed Warb Null and Ommin.

His dueling skill is on par with Exar Kun's despite a shrapnel injury and is routinely held in high regard as a Jedi Guardian by characters across the eras. Even Anakin Skywalker recognised him and his skill.

Force feats are sparse by comparison but he is certainly very powerful. As a matter of fact he has been used as a benchmark for Darth Sidious,
stating that even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine's power.

He is probably the strongest character here.

Nah, nothing here that's greater than the HoT or Zannah. In speed, skill and power both compare or exceed him.

AncientPower
I love the time you put into your rebuttals, the opinions are fantastic.

Nephthys
I'm a bit burnt out on arguing Bane and Zannah tbh. You should know all her shit by now anyway.

Stigma
Originally posted by Trocity
Wyyrlok is better than Zannah.
Interesting. mmm

Sinious
Team 2 wins.

carthage
Nephs arguments are pretty LOLworthy. People bring up feats/proof Zannah's illusions need time to gather power and all Neph says is LAWLnope Bane is better.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by carthage
Nephs arguments are pretty LOLworthy. People bring up feats/proof Zannah's illusions need time to gather power and all Neph says is LAWLnope Bane is better.

At a glance?

You're sort of misrepresenting him here :hmm

He's not denying that as far as I can tell, more he's trying to illustrate that you're overstating the issue of it possessing some charge time

Mostly through demonstrating how short of an interval the charge time may be

Hell if I care that much though, mostly just shooting the shit

Nephthys
It's barely even a charge time, it's more like ch- time.

Q99
Likewise, Wyyrlok can do his illusions pretty quick too. And has experience fighting mental attacks with mental attacks...


Originally posted by Nephthys

In comparison to the other combatants? Yeah, he's the weakest.

He's strong enough to give a long fight to be sure, regardless of how one precisely ranks them. Krayt's certainly a more dangerous foe than Zannah.

Kosmos Supreme
Wyyrlok is probably a bit of a dead weight, but not by much. and i think the Hero of Tython would beat Ulic Qel Droma at least 6/10

Q99
Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
Wyyrlok is probably a bit of a dead weight, but not by much.

I think you may have an odd definition of dead weight. He was a rough fight for *Reborn* Krayt (who's stronger than Ulic), and chumped a legendary immortal sith sorcerer at sorcery.

He's going to at least hold his own against most major sith lords.


Dead weight implies a character that has to be carried, while it's pretty obvious that if anyone in this fight fought the other team solo they'd die hard.

They're fighting against a sith sorcerer and Wyyrlok is known-really good at sorcery fights!

AncientPower
Ulic Qel-Droma has stalemated Exar Kun whilst injured, the same Exar Kun recognised as the best duelist of the era. Please tell me again what opponents Hero of Tython has fought with saber skills on the tier of Exar Kun.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Q99
He's strong enough to give a long fight to be sure, regardless of how one precisely ranks them. Krayt's certainly a more dangerous foe than Zannah.

Never said he'd go down easy.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ulic Qel-Droma has stalemated Exar Kun whilst injured, the same Exar Kun recognised as the best duelist of the era. Please tell me again what opponents Hero of Tython has fought with saber skills on the tier of Exar Kun.

Scourge.

Q99
Originally posted by Nephthys
Never said he'd go down easy.


Some are acting like he'd go down quickly or easily, which... isn't happening.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge.

Isn't on Exar Kun's tier, your point?

Nephthys
I don't see why Kun is significantly greater than Scourge.

AncientPower
What proof have you got that Scourge approaches one of the greatest master duelists in the lore? Allow me to guess, being roughly equal to Meetra Surik? Killing generic Sith with unknown elements of support? or is it getting handled by HoT? I hardly think so.

Kun remains arguably the greatest Niman master of all time, quite possibly invented the saberstaff and was routinely equating Ulic and Vodo in lightsaber combat, two genuine master duelists themselves. Not to mention that his personal lightsaber form is stated to be unstoppable when combined with his precognition.

Nephthys
Originally posted by AncientPower
What proof have you got that Scourge approaches one of the greatest master duelists in the lore? Allow me to guess, being roughly equal to Meetra Surik? Killing generic Sith with unknown elements of support? or is it getting handled by HoT? I hardly think so.

Kun remains arguably the greatest Niman master of all time, quite possibly invented the saberstaff and was routinely equating Ulic and Vodo in lightsaber combat, two genuine master duelists themselves. Not to mention that his personal lightsaber form is stated to be unstoppable when combined with his precognition.

Sure, he was about equal to Surik.... 300 ****ing years before his prime. Scourge mastered at least 3 lightsaber forms in a mere 20ish years. So it's not difficult to imagine that an extra 300 years (and the motivation of ending Vitiate) would make him insanely proficient. He's also got bonkers amounts of experience after 300 years of fighting powerful opponents and killing over 1100 of them. It was also notable that although he was decent in Revan, Nyriss and Revan both mention that Scourge still has tremendous amounts of force potential to unlock. Which I figure he did. He also has biochemical enhancements, has his combat prowess increased by Vitiate and has his special talent for feeding off of the emotions of his opponents (more than regular Sith). His massively levels of experience were also so good that he could quickly analyse a person and see their weaknesses.

And we see the "support" Scourge has in TOR. None. He walks up solo to a Republic military base to murder a former dark council member. And although he walks away, he was confident he could have succeeded despite Act II HoT being there and killed her and Sajar.

Kun was good sure but he was rivaled by Ulic and Vodo, he's not a transcendent swordsman above everyone else. Being unstoppable is obviously hyperbolic.

ares834
Originally posted by Trocity
Wyyrlok is better than Zannah.

Gotta agree.

carthage
Lmao @ Scourge being in the same tier as Exar Kun.

Stigma
Wyyrlok vs. Zannah is an interesting match-up indeed. I'm curious whose illusions will be more efficient.

Nephthys
Wyyrlok's illusions seemed to need him to know about his opponents vulnerabilities, while Zannah's automatically pluck them from the victims minds.

AncientPower
Neph's logic is particularly fantastic because it assumes Exar Kun couldn't have done the same and more. Oh and trying to lowball Kun in comparison to Scourge by using Ulic Qel-Droma and Vodo Siosk-Baas is hilarious in and of itself.

carthage
The only rival of Ulic was Kun? Obviously Vodo was no match for him as per text and the fact Kun smashed him into the ground. If anything Scourge is more comparable to Vodo than either Ulic or Kun lol.


- The Dark Side Sourcebook

Scourge would get stomped quite effortlessly by Kun. And Zannah doesn't compare to Ulic in anyway, unless Set Harth and Sarro has fought some expert duelist Karpashyn hid from us all

Q99
We've seen the fight, Vodo was able to block every blow, but his staff couldn't handle Kun's power. I wouldn't say 'no match,' even though Kun clearly won.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Wyyrlok's illusions seemed to need him to know about his opponents vulnerabilities, while Zannah's automatically pluck them from the victims minds.


He wasn't exactly familiar with Andeddu before they clashed.


The technique he used on Krayt is probably the same memory walk Zannah uses, and Darth Maladi also used.

S_W_LeGenD
Team 2 (Zannah and HoT)

Originally posted by carthage
Lmao @ Scourge being in the same tier as Exar Kun.
Emperor's Wrath likely is.

An individual doesn't gets to be Emperor's Wrath and kill over a thousand Jedi and Sith in battles by not being extraordinarily skilled and powerful in galactic history in Star Wars.

Scourge, as of Revan, was already an impressive duelist. He exponentially grew in power and experience afterwards, thanks to efforts of Emperor Vitiate in part.

Nephthys
Originally posted by AncientPower
Neph's logic is particularly fantastic because it assumes Exar Kun couldn't have done the same and more. Oh and trying to lowball Kun in comparison to Scourge by using Ulic Qel-Droma and Vodo Siosk-Baas is hilarious in and of itself.

Aren't you doing the same thing in assuming that Scourge can't do the stuff you mentioned?

Maaaaaaaaaaybe Scourge isn't as good as Kun. Doesn't matter since the HoT greatly improved after beating him anyway. And Ulic only matched him before Kun created his saberstaff, so that stuff about him being invincible with it when coupled with his precog doesn't count.

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