Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

No optic blasts, no Joker venom, knives, exploding cigars, potato peelers...you get the idea.

Just hand to hand.

Joker kills him...literally.

Cyclops.

Joker is really inconsistent when it comes to h2h. Hard to say.

Thsts the most even 3 responses ever!

Cyclops, not even a contest. He knows joker is willing to kill, knows hes a tad psychotic. Cyclops takes no prisoner.

Joker knows about Cyclops, too though, right? Lots to work with there, messing with him wise.

Originally posted by riv6672
Joker knows about Cyclops, too though, right? Lots to work with there, messing with him wise.

He knows the basics. That shouldn't be enough to get in his head like he does Batman, even then I doubt it would work. Cyclops usually gives no shit about anything. You could insult his 5 times+ dead wife, and when you're finished, he'll calmly beat you down. Not because you insulted Jean, but because he was about to beat you up anyway. Also Cyclops is a consistently better fighter than Joker.

Isn't DCNU Joker hard to put down because of his healing and the fact that he might be exposed to the same meteor that powers the likes of Vandal Savage?

Originally posted by KingD19
He knows the basics. That shouldn't be enough to get in his head like he does Batman, even then I doubt it would work. Cyclops usually gives no shit about anything. You could insult his 5 times+ dead wife, and when you're finished, he'll calmly beat you down. Not because you insulted Jean, but because he was about to beat you up anyway. Also Cyclops is a consistently better fighter than Joker.



Current Joker's pain tolerance is arguably superhuman; he took getting his face sliced off...

Even if Scott can outfight him, Joker's insanity proves too much...

Joker 10/10...

Originally posted by Juk3n
Cyclops, not even a contest. He knows joker is willing to kill, knows hes a tad psychotic. Cyclops takes no prisoner.

Joker tanks everything Scott throws at him, and then proceeds to brutally slay him...

Jokers too unpredictable so he'd come u with some crazy shit and he's not afraid of pain which gives him; as Faora put it, an evolutionary advantage... when you aren't worried about pain to your opponent or yourself then you're more likely to win

Scott is willing to kill him, something that is keeping Joker from being a one off character.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Scott is willing to kill him, something that is keeping Joker from being a one off character.

Joker can laugh the following off; Scott has no prayer...

Supposedly joker might be immortal now. If true, nothing Scott can do.

Joker takes this. Even as far back as pre flashpoint, he was solidly fighting with nightwing, batman,robin, batgirl, etc. In the nu 52, he's also shown an insane amount of pain tolerance from the beatings that he's taken from batman.

Originally posted by relentless1
Jokers too unpredictable so he'd come u with some crazy shit and he's not afraid of pain which gives him; as Faora put it, an evolutionary advantage... when you aren't worried about pain to your opponent or yourself then you're more likely to win


this

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Scott is willing to kill him, something that is keeping Joker from being a one off character.

where in the OP suggested they're bloodlusted? and from the two of them joker has a higher chance of actually going in for the kill

His pain tolerance means nothing. Scott is a better fighter than him and is capable of being cold and ruthless instead of crazy and ruthless. He could easily break all Joker's limbs. He can withstand the pain all he wants, but if he can't move there's nothing he can do.

And Scott would have absolutely no issue in killing him.

Again, he can't kill him. Plus, he's gone on fighting with broken bones before. He has high pain tolerance.

Originally posted by 8swords
where in the OP suggested they're bloodlusted? and from the two of them joker has a higher chance of actually going in for the kill Scott kills people who are far less evil than Joker, if anyone has scans of Joker being able to survive a broken neck we might have an argument going.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Again, he can't kill him. Plus, he's gone on fighting with broken bones before. He has high pain tolerance.

Again, pain tolerance doesn't count for anything when your body can't operate. It could feel like a summer breeze when Scott snaps his arm, but if it's snapped completely he can't use it. Unless his body can ignore physics fully...like a bone not connected to the rest of the bone being able to move.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Again, he can't kill him. Plus, he's gone on fighting with broken bones before. He has high pain tolerance. If the optic blasts weren't turned off would Cyclops still lose?

Originally posted by KingD19
Again, pain tolerance doesn't count for anything when your body can't operate. It could feel like a summer breeze when Scott snaps his arm, but if it's snapped completely he can't use it. Unless his body can ignore physics fully...like a bone not connected to the rest of the bone being able to move.

Joker can heal. When was the last time Scott did that to a character?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
If the optic blasts weren't turned off would Cyclops still lose?

In killing Joker? If Joker was exposed to the same meteor as Savage and his healing/immortality worked on the same level, he wouldn't die.

Here is a quote about the whole thing. Recent Snyder run

If Joker has a healing factor and is immortal now, why are we even having this conversation? Also, if he has those things going for him, I better not see Batman beating his ass anytime soon either.

Cyclops is a better fighter H2H then Joker is and I cant believe that is even up for discussion. I don't care about Jokers pain tolerance either. Its hard to laugh off pain when your knocked out.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Here is a quote about the whole thing. Recent Snyder run

Lame

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lame

Agreed and totally unneeded.

Just what comics were desperately needing, ANOTHER healing factor.

sleep1

Now that Golgo13 has educated you all, under the conditions present in the OP, can we now all agree that Joker wins?

Or is it beyond you all to admit and accept that fact?

Originally posted by tkitna
If Joker has a healing factor and is immortal now, why are we even having this conversation? Also, if he has those things going for him, I better not see Batman beating his ass anytime soon either.

Cyclops is a better fighter H2H then Joker is and I cant believe that is even up for discussion. I don't care about Jokers pain tolerance either. Its hard to laugh off pain when your knocked out.

Damian Wayne was using a crowbar on joker and it hardly did anything.

So they actually confirmed that retarded Joker meteor thing?

****.

Did he try choking him or snapping his neck?

I was assuming this is no powers, otherwise Scott can keep his Optic blast if Joker's get's his supposed immortality.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Damian Wayne was using a crowbar on joker and it hardly did anything.

Well then I guess the Joker is superhuman now and out of Batmans league.

Just doesn't seem right that the Joker should be a superman villain now.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Now that Golgo13 has educated you all, under the conditions present in the OP, can we now all agree that Joker wins?

Or is it beyond you all to admit and accept that fact? All I got from that is that Batman gets to tee off on him more than usual and Joker can come back a few times a year without having to burden the writers too much.

From what I read the immortality thing is still just a theory. Joker was asked if he's immortal, or just a very sick man and his response was something like "I look at it more as a choose your own adventure rather than a multiple choice." It's still supposed to be a mystery at this point. The direction we seem to be getting steered towards is him being older than Gotham though.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Here is a quote about the whole thing. Recent Snyder run It's nice to see that they never run out of great ideas over there!

Originally posted by riv6672
No optic blasts, no Joker venom, knives, exploding cigars, potato peelers...you get the idea.

Just hand to hand.

These are the conditions presented to us in the OP...

Given what we know of these two characters, how can any rational person utter the words "Scott wins?"

I doubt riv was aware that the Joker has powers now, it's rather clear from the OP that this is intended to be a no weapons/powers fight.

Originally posted by tkitna
If Joker has a healing factor and is immortal now, why are we even having this conversation? Also, if he has those things going for him, I better not see Batman beating his ass anytime soon either.

Cyclops is a better fighter H2H then Joker is and I cant believe that is even up for discussion. I don't care about Jokers pain tolerance either. Its hard to laugh off pain when your knocked out. ^ yes

So, Joker has powers now?
Way to go DCnu.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
These are the conditions presented to us in the OP...

Given what we know of these two characters, how can any rational person utter the words "Scott wins?"
because you nor anyone have shown how immortality is gonna give him the win.

Needless Immortality aside, i still gave the win to Joker, personally.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Here is a quote about the whole thing. Recent Snyder run

Thats sh1t is retarded. Good job fuqing up the character

No joke. Joker's power is, he's bat shit crazy. Duh.

I thought his power was more like cheating death. It's not so much a healing factor as if he's about to die, he just ends up coming back for some random reason. It shouldn't keep him in a fight if all his bones are broken, which Scott is easily skilled enough to do.

Cyclops yesll/ NOO I can't hitz hm wit muh punchin lazer then gives up.

Nah, all that has been retconned now. It's not 100% that he gets the same type of power as Savage, but there is strong evidence that it points to it.

But it's still speculation at this point until it's revealed on panel right?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Nah, all that has been retconned now. It's not 100% that he gets the same type of power as Savage, but there is strong evidence that it points to it. That's terrible.

Cyclops stomps but the whole joker healing factor is making me sick

Originally posted by KingD19
But it's still speculation at this point until it's revealed on panel right?

Joker was shown to be older than Gotham, so it has to be the meteorite source, unless it's shown to be something totally different when the story ends.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Joker was shown to be older than Gotham, so it has to be the meteorite source

shit

Originally posted by Golgo13
Isn't DCNU Joker hard to put down because of his healing and the fact that he might be exposed to the same meteor that powers the likes of Vandal Savage?

If so, that's an interesting take.

Yeah, Snyder's run is pretty damn good right now. Much better than his last Joker story.

IIRC, Joker was actually supposed to die in his first appearance, so end-up as a one-off, but the editor forced the end to change so he did actually survive.

Not that it has anything to do with the topic. Just some stuff people said earlier reminded me of that.

The story is actually pretty good so I'll wait til the end. But I have a feeling all this immortality stuff and old pictures of Joker may just be a huge elaborate plan to phuck with Bruce. Either that or it will be left inconclusive.

Agree with KingD19. How is Joker supposed to fight back at all when Scott - unquestionably a better hand-to-hand fighter - snaps both of his legs? Slither after him? I hate the Joker, it's always annoyed me that his popularity has meant that in fights where he should have easily had his face pushed in he comes away with a cheap win. I kind of wish someone in the DC universe would pick him up by one leg and give him the treatment Hulk gave Loki in the Avengers movie.

the problem is that Jokers fighting skills fluctuates rapidly from story to story; some he's a one punch or even a half smack for Batman, in others he's doing damage to Bats all over the place, it all really comes back to his unpredictability and craziness i suppose, I recall reading somewhere that they explained away his sometimes violent killer sometimes harmless prankster thing by saying he's a different Joker every day or some shit like that

^^^yeah.
For people to say Cyclops breaks all his bones is inducing.
Scott's no top 10 MA. Joker routinely can and has, taken it to Batman, who's gear and resilience both put him well above Scott's ability to absorb damage.
As usual, i have to say i've no problem with people going against my choice for a win, i just cant back silly reasoning.

I reckon Cyclops can well win. All this talk of Joker's HF is....well, even IF he has one, for the purposes of this thread, I'll assume it;s off. No powers.

Saying that, one of the standout scenes I remember is the Cat KOing Cyclops with a pressure point move.

Not saying the Joker can replicate it, but no top tier MA is going down like that.

Cyclops isnt top tier.

Hasn't he been training since he was 15? And isn't he like 30 now? That's the exact same character progression as the bat

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Hasn't he been training since he was 15? And isn't he like 30 now? That's the exact same character progression as the bat

Only in terms of years. Nothing more.

@Maxi
Noooo, it really isnt.
Cyclops holds black belts in judo and aikido, yes. He wears spandex with the occasional equipment pouch. That doesnt make him Batman.

Originally posted by riv6672
@Maxi
Noooo, it really isnt.
Cyclops holds black belts in judo and aikido, yes. He wears spandex with the occasional equipment pouch. That doesnt make him Batman.

He also has hidden bases, cool vehicles and teenage boys in tight clothing hanging on his every word...

Come to think of it, you never see Scott Summers and Batman in the same place.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I doubt riv was aware that the Joker has powers now, it's rather clear from the OP that this is intended to be a no weapons/powers fight.

yeh sure. even though the OP clearly states the obvious, and riv didnt edit it or mentions otherwise. you still want it to be a mortal joker vs scott, so that scott could win.

1) Cyke doesn't need to kill Mistah J. KO = win.

2) Joker's regen seems to kick in after he's been dominated, not during the fight. So it's useless in vs. threads.

Still, even without cheating, Joker *can* be a solid h2h combatant. Just not under every writer.

^ I think the general consensus agrees Joker is hard to put down in H2H. But I don't think many would dispute that he's folded like an accordion at times once the gig is up. So it'd be good to see some scans though of his more impressive fights. Originally posted by Golgo13
Joker was shown to be older than Gotham, so it has to be the meteorite source, unless it's shown to be something totally different when the story ends. This hasn't been verified at all, to my knowledge. It's an ongoing mystery at this point with another issue to conclude the mystery. Synder has pulled the ole switcheroo with what's true and what's not with Joker before.

Originally posted by 8swords
yeh sure. even though the OP clearly states the obvious, and riv didnt edit it or mentions otherwise. you still want it to be a mortal joker vs scott, so that scott could win.

You're aware that you can't edit posts that are more than 15 minutes old, right? As for you thinking that the OP knew that the Joker had powers when he made the thread. See below.

Originally posted by riv6672
So, Joker has powers now?
Way to go DCnu.

No i didnt know he had powers.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You're aware that you can't edit posts that are more than 15 minutes old, right? As for you thinking that the OP knew that the Joker had powers when he made the thread. See below.

he could've posted something to say that they dont have their powers. per knowing he does have HF. but he didnt. so we go with with HF, but IMHO, even without HF. joker is batshitt crazy, and would've killed any good moraled street if he could. cept the batman, coz bromance.

Originally posted by 8swords
he could've posted something to say that they dont have their powers. per knowing he does have HF. but he didnt. so we go with with HF, but IMHO, even without HF. joker is batshitt crazy, and would've killed any good moraled street if he could. cept the batman, coz bromance.

So it's 100% confirmed then? Because anything else is just speculation and theories. Hell, Snyder has made an entire storyline out of Joker theories, so until it is 100% confirmed, he has no HF - and we should stop it before it becomes a myth, taken as fact.

In any case. Cyclops wins here.

I REPEAT...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OPJPC2j_Ggc/TQjhy5wIZaI/AAAAAAAAAFk/-zZl47PmfzE/s1600/billclinton.png

I did not know Joker had super powers.

That is, if he even has any powers. No one knows for sure.

So for all those saying Joker wins - CDnU Joker fighting feats, please? No blades, poison, acid etc - just h2h combat as stipulated in the thread?

Crazy stomp for Cyclops.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Crazy stomp for Cyclops.
Scans of Cyclops stomping someone crazy.

Originally posted by riv6672
Scans of Cyclops stomping someone crazy.
hmm, new x-men I suppose. He's stomping Shi'ar guards like crazy.

Originally posted by riv6672
Scans of Cyclops stomping someone crazy.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/2677158-cykes_h2h13.jpg

But for real, he has those scans of him fighting whilst blindfolded against all those thugs, AND taking on that giant monster with a sword , whilst blindfolded....

Thugs:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/8582/830691-680877_640243_ma6a_super_super.jpg

Monster:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/2068098-cyclops_sword.jpg

Disarming a gunman who is behind him:
http://i.imgur.com/YPfvJJ3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/c3orR6F.jpg

Impressive.
Batman's done better though, and Joker still gives him what for.

Originally posted by riv6672
Impressive.
Batman's done better though, and Joker still gives him what for.
He's Batman.

Joker doesn't.

And certainly not without weapons.

Batman also explains this stuff pretty well when he's stomping Black Mask in their second ifght. He doesn't go all out in hand to hand and the fact that people can take a punch and give some back doesn't mean that they can actually compare to him/threaten him.

That doesnt mean Cyclops holds back.

Originally posted by riv6672
That doesnt mean Cyclops holds back.
No, obviously not.

It means that Batman holds back.

Yeah. I mean, mastering 127 styles and learning to focus your chi and all that is impressive and all, but at the end of the day, after a certain level, it becomes moot. A punch is still a punch, after all.

Now, does Joker do well against Batman in h2h ALONE due to skill, or due to impressive damage soak? I haven't seen many (any?) solely h2h showings from Joker to make me want to vote for him - am open to being convinced, however.

Most of the times, he does well due to cheating (suddenly having a knife, or acid, or prepping beforehand, or his goons).

I'll give you that.
But i'm also not buying Cyclops dismantling him like he's suddenly ShNg Chi, either.

Originally posted by riv6672
I'll give you that.
But i'm also not buying Cyclops dismantling him like he's suddenly ShNg Chi, either.

God no, lol. He's no Shang Chi. After all, this happened with the Cat:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/39001/1412093-cycdodge2.png

Actually, I'm still surprised Cyke has blocked him while preoccupied for 1 panel.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Actually, I'm still surprised Cyke has blocked him while preoccupied for 1 panel.

Yeah wtf.

He's getting hit from behind/the side while attacking deadpool.

Originally posted by 8swords
he could've posted something to say that they dont have their powers. per knowing he does have HF. but he didnt. so we go with with HF, but IMHO, even without HF. joker is batshitt crazy, and would've killed any good moraled street if he could. cept the batman, coz bromance.


Originally posted by riv6672
I REPEAT...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OPJPC2j_Ggc/TQjhy5wIZaI/AAAAAAAAAFk/-zZl47PmfzE/s1600/billclinton.png

I did not know Joker had super powers.

Joker

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Joker

Have you any h2h feats of his?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
God no, lol. He's no Shang Chi. After all, this happened with the Cat:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/39001/1412093-cycdodge2.png how is that a bad showing? He was fighting 2 MA and one is +peak

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
how is that a bad showing? He was fighting 2 MA and one is +peak

To show that Cyclops is not +peak in skills?

Not saying its a bad showing. Am just saying Cyclops is not an IronFist/Black Panther/Cap level MA - he's good, as my other scans have shown, but not THAT good.

Not that it would matter against Joker, anyway, as Joker still gets beaten down.

Yeah? I agree but for a second there I thought people were arguing

Joker ~= Deadpool & help.

Originally posted by Silent Master


Unconfirmed. Remember death in the family? Snyder had us convinced things would happen one way and he pulled the switcheroo on us. That could very well be the case in this story.

Cyclops is a far better MA than Joker. By a long, long way. We're talking about someone that can fight blind against multiple opponents. Someone that trained the X-Men, and is proficient in at least two martial arts. Sure, he's not Batman, but he's well above most "average" people.

Joker's "unpredictability" is what usually helps him out. And the fact that Batman's usually all "Give up Joker, don't make me do this" while Cyclops would just punch him in the face.

Joker can win, imo, but it's not because he's a more skilled fighter.

I feel Cyclops can win, but not because he's an overly skilled fighter.
Joker's as likely to bite someone's face off as he is to play "got your nose". Cyclops wins if Joker's in a good mood.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Cyclops is a far better MA than Joker. By a long, long way. We're talking about someone that can fight blind against multiple opponents. Someone that trained the X-Men, and is proficient in at least two martial arts. Sure, he's not Batman, but he's well above most "average" people.

Joker's "unpredictability" is what usually helps him out. And the fact that Batman's usually all "Give up Joker, don't make me do this" while Cyclops would just punch him in the face.

Joker can win, imo, but it's not because he's a more skilled fighter.

agreed,

i don't think anybody ever said he was a better fighter than cyke but Jokers way too crazy to be taken lightly in any sort of fight

Joker doesnt know Karate, he knows Ca-razy.

Originally posted by relentless1
i don't think anybody ever said he was a better fighter than cyke but Jokers way too crazy to be taken lightly in any sort of fight

Any scans of his fighting performances?

heres a good fight with Luthor:

http://s668.photobucket.com/user/jokertheclownprince/media/jokermisc-vsluthor1.jpg.html

Batgirl not able to read his body language:

http://s668.photobucket.com/user/jokertheclownprince/media/jokermisc-batgirlcain3a.jpg.html

getting a couple good shots on Aquaman:

http://s668.photobucket.com/user/jokertheclownprince/media/jokermisc-fishylaugh1a.jpg.html

I mean this in the nicest way possible - but those aren't that impressive, nor are they of DCnU Joker.

The Luthor fight, Luthor, who I rate below Cyclops, was actually smacking him around an winning, until he cheated with the flower. This despite all the 'crazy Joker antics', like biting and laughing at pain etc. He used all that, and was still losing, until the acid flower.

The Batgirl fight is not quite the same - she relies on body language reading, and remove that, and she's screwed. Cyclops doesn't rely on it. Moreover, Joker was using his buzzer (numbing her arm) and using chairs etc on her. Hardly a h2h fight.


I'd like to say the Aquaman/Joker fights is PIS, but its Aquaman, so....prob not

Here's my take:
Neither of the characters is a pure h2h fighter. Joker uses gadgets and Cyclops is a ranged fighter due to his optic blasts (the Provided Joker scan with joy buzzer. The provided Cyclops scan with optic blast shattering sword).
While Cyclops is the more classically trained of the two, Joker is more apt to get into physical altercations on a regular basis.

Pretty even fight, really. One i think Joker wins, though great points have been made both ways...

Actually Joker never won because they never fought, duh.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean this in the nicest way possible - but those aren't that impressive, nor are they of DCnU Joker.

The Luthor fight, Luthor, who I rate below Cyclops, was actually smacking him around an winning, until he cheated with the flower. This despite all the 'crazy Joker antics', like biting and laughing at pain etc. He used all that, and was still losing, until the acid flower.

The Batgirl fight is not quite the same - she relies on body language reading, and remove that, and she's screwed. Cyclops doesn't rely on it. Moreover, Joker was using his buzzer (numbing her arm) and using chairs etc on her. Hardly a h2h fight.


I'd like to say the Aquaman/Joker fights is PIS, but its Aquaman, so....prob not he also fought nightwing in The Last Laugh and more recently, was shown to be so fast that he could stab batman twice without bruce even knowing.

Originally posted by deathslash
he also fought nightwing in The Last Laugh and more recently, was shown to be so fast that he could stab batman twice without bruce even knowing.

Got scans?

And without a blade, how deadly will he be?

DCNU Joker doesn't have the feats, this is riduclous.

Preboot could give Cyclops a fight in some incarnations, like in Morrison's Batman and Robin.

Nightwing literally beat him to death with his bare hands in Last Laugh.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nightwing literally beat him to death with his bare hands in Last Laugh. IIRC, that was the Joker's last wish; to taint Batman (or at least his former sidekick) with his death. And before he let Dick beat him to death, he was putting a a pretty good fight.

Originally posted by deathslash
IIRC, that was the Joker's last wish; to taint Batman (or at least his former sidekick) with his death. And before he let Dick beat him to death, he was putting a a pretty good fight.

We'll need scans.

@kris blaze: well, was only going off earlier posters who were happy to use Snyder's POTENTIAL HF Joker.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Got scans?
http://birdsofpreysuperheroes.blogspot.com/2014/09/joker-last-laugh-06-you-only-laughs.html
There you go. There is still context behind Dick killing him. When he began losing, he made a statement about how he had hit Jason much harder than Grayson was hitting him and he continued to goad Dick into beating him to death.

Yah, I thought it was that showing

Its...erm...again, not that impressive. Now, I may sound like I'm picking holes in everything, but is there a nice, good showing of Joker, using ONLY h2h, winning a fight? Going up against Nightwing and deliberately trying to die isn't exactly a good showing, lol. It just shows Joker CAN be beaten to death...

Because so far, all I've see of a fight that goes the way Joker's supporters are claiming - where he kicks and bites and uses his damage soak and laughs off punches - is the Luthor fight, where Luthor is winning the beat down (until Joker cheats). In this fight, he has no acid flower...

We are at an impasse. No Joker showing will ever be truely impressive.
No cyclops feat will ever be on the Bat family's level.

Originally posted by riv6672
No cyclops feat will ever be on the Bat family's level.
It doesn't need to be.

And Joker's feats dont need to be that impressive to take down Cyclops.

Impasse.

Originally posted by riv6672
And Joker's feats dont need to be that impressive to take down Cyclops.

Impasse.
They don't.

But they should at the very least be of him taking down someone.

Exactly. So far, I haven't seen him taking ANYONE down, and the most relevant fight I've seen (against Luthor, who isn't Bat family level), where Joker is biting and laughing at the pain, Joker was still losing.

Until he cheated with an acid flower. Which he won't have here.

So all Cyclops needs to be, h2h wise, is Lex level. Which I believe he is, based on the scans I've seen.

Batman confidential he showed high level skill. I'll post scans later....or not. You're not the boss of me

Alright it is time for me to step in and set this debate straight on who wins.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Alright it is time for me to step in and set this debate straight on who wins.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Worst post of the day

Originally posted by -K-M-
Batman confidential he showed high level skill. I'll post scans later....or not. You're not the boss of me
Batman Confidential had him as a lock-expert and a marksman.

As far as I know it's not canon.

First I heard it being non-canon *shrugs*

Batman Confidential is the early adventures of Batman, so I think it's canon.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Alright it is time for me to step in and set this debate straight on who wins.



Get em.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Alright it is time for me to step in and set this debate straight on who wins. http://i.imgur.com/y9X2Foz.gif

I heard rumours it was non canon *shrug* but you'd have to dig writer interviews up, which I don't care for.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I heard rumours it was non canon *shrug* but you'd have to dig writer interviews up, which I don't care for.

People were saying the same thing about Superman&Batman (later stories) and it turned out to be canon just fine.

Some won't accept it as a canon material, but afaik, it's usable. And good, because Batman vs. JLA is just too good not to be counted

Originally posted by krisblaze
Batman Confidential had him as a lock-expert and a marksman.

As far as I know it's not canon. Krisblaze? More like KissGayz amirite Batman fans?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Krisblaze? More like KissGayz amirite Batman fans?

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/hmmmmm_zpsvd6mfjw0.gif

It's not canon. Dan Dildo said so in an interview.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Krisblaze? More like KissGayz amirite Batman fans?
You're a dead man.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly. So far, I haven't seen him taking ANYONE down, and the most relevant fight I've seen (against Luthor, who isn't Bat family level), where Joker is biting and laughing at the pain, Joker was still losing.

Until he cheated with an acid flower. Which he won't have here.

So all Cyclops needs to be, h2h wise, is Lex level. Which I believe he is, based on the scans I've seen.
I'd put Cyclops above Luthor, but i take your meaning.

Originally posted by krisblaze
It's not canon. Dan Dildo said so in an interview.

If it was then why was one of the story arks referenced in JSA?

Originally posted by -K-M-
If it was then why was one of the story arks referenced in JSA?

Probably because that arc was canon.

Like how some of the Superman confidential arcs were canon, but not all.

I reckon whatever storyline KM posts, it won't be canon.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Probably because that arc was canon.

Like how some of the Superman confidential arcs were canon, but not all.

So then you can't say the book is non-canon and can't say that story isn't canon either as you don't know.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I reckon whatever storyline KM posts, it won't be canon.

The JSA story? It was JSA volume 3 49-52 some issue in between there

Originally posted by -K-M-
So then you can't say the book is non-canon and can't say that story isn't canon either as you don't know.
What do you want here?

Joker in Batman confidential is completely different from the Joker we know.

If you want Confidential to be canon, then that's a retcon of both the man who laughs, the killing joke and hush returns.

Originally posted by krisblaze
What do you want here?

Joker in Batman confidential is completely different from the Joker we know.

If you want Confidential to be canon, then that's a retcon of both the man who laughs, the killing joke and hush returns.

It was joker pre joker. We really didn't know much about him.

I don't particular care if it is or isn't. I have not seen anywhere where it says it's non-canon and it was referenced in a JSA book hence why I'm asking proof it's non-canon. We can't say for certain that's the point. Fyi, those stories you mentioned retconned other "origin" stories.

Originally posted by -K-M-
So then you can't say the book is non-canon and can't say that story isn't canon either as you don't know.



The JSA story? It was JSA volume 3 49-52 some issue in between there

Don't fall for his half-truths, Kissgayz, be strong. He's trying to use scans which would strengthen his position, and weaken ours. The textbook definition of non-canon.

Originally posted by -K-M-
It was joker pre joker. We really didn't know much about him.

I don't particular care if it is or isn't. I have not seen anywhere where it says it's non-canon and it was referenced in a JSA book hence why I'm asking proof it's non-canon. We can't say for certain that's the point. Fyi, those stories you mentioned retconned other "origin" stories.

Killing Joke was referenced in the hush arcs.

Man who laughs was referenced in new 52 and another batman arc.

I'd say these take precedence over the JSA book.

But like you say, Joker has at least 4 canon origins that have been referenced multiple times...

Originally posted by krisblaze
Killing Joke was referenced in the hush arcs.

Man who laughs was referenced in new 52 and another batman arc.

I'd say these take precedence over the JSA book.

But like you say, Joker has at least 4 canon origins that have been referenced multiple times...

Exactly. Now the new 52 is apparently making joker immortal and older then Gotham, which will retcon those origins. They could theoretically now become "non-canon" too.

I still haven't seen anything making batman confidential non-canon

Originally posted by -K-M-
Exactly. Now the new 52 is apparently making joker immortal and older then Gotham, which will retcon those origins. They could theoretically now become "non-canon" too.

Though the man who laughs is in my opinion the current "most canon" origin we have, at least until the new "immortal joker" nonsense is completed. Considering that it's been specifically referenced in the new 52 comics.

As for preboot, I suppose any of the 4 will do.

Anyways, for the sake of this thread the Batman Confidential origin is the only one that points to Joker being great at hand to hand combat and a slew of other things that have never been revisited.

All of the other origins point to the Joker's inevitable loss at the hands of Cyclops.

In my opinion

I thought that was part of the Joker's 'thing'? That you don't know which is real and which isn't?

Kinda like Ledger's 'know how I got these scars?' stories.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought that was part of the Joker's 'thing'? That you don't know which is real and which isn't?

Kinda like Ledger's 'know how I got these scars?' stories.
We hate you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought that was part of the Joker's 'thing'? That you don't know which is real and which isn't?

Kinda like Ledger's 'know how I got these scars?' stories.

Pretty much
----------
Also seperate note as it's been years how did the Luthor and joker fight go in salvation run? I vaguely remebered he karate kicked luthor in the head

But yes I'm confident to say cyclops is a much better h2h fighter. However, I have still seen nothing that can take away the confidential showing

Originally posted by -K-M-
Pretty much
----------
Also seperate note as it's been years how did the Luthor and joker fight go in salvation run? I vaguely remebered he karate kicked luthor in the head

But yes I'm confident to say cyclops is a much better h2h fighter. However, I have still seen nothing that can take away the confidential showing

Originally posted by relentless1
heres a good fight with Luthor:

http://s668.photobucket.com/user/jokertheclownprince/media/jokermisc-vsluthor1.jpg.html


Just click through the images. Synopsis: Joker gets some good hits in, Luthor dominates, until Joker cheats.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just click through the images. Synopsis: Joker gets some good hits in, Luthor dominates, until Joker cheats.

You do realize that Luthor cheated also?

Makes it a legit showing for Joker.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You do realize that Luthor cheated also?

Makes it a legit showing for Joker.

Oh yes, he did in the start of the match. My point was, the Joker supporters were saying Joker would fight dirty, with biting etc, and would be immune to pain and laugh it off. I was just showing that even with all that, Lexy was still getting the upper hand - and he is not Cyke level, and shows that you don't need to be Bats level to take the Joker down.