Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Fight takes place in NY times square. They start off 100 m away from each other.

Round 1: Combatants get all their equipment.
Round 2: they get simple, identical bows and normal arrows
Round 3: h2h

I don't recall any shooting feats for Oliver that would match Hawkeye's best, so Hawk should win the weapon fights.

Jeremy Renner shoots his arrow into Oliver's face at ftl speeds and erases his entire being from existence 10/10.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I don't recall any shooting feats for Oliver that would match Hawkeye's best, so Hawk should win the weapon fights.

I seem to recall GA shooting an arrow that was in flight.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I don't recall any shooting feats for Oliver that would match Hawkeye's best, so Hawk should win the weapon fights.

Maybe, but Hawkeye also doesn't have any feats to match Ollie's speed shooting. None that I recall anyway. Which makes them pretty even in my books.

Originally posted by ares834
I seem to recall GA shooting an arrow that was in flight.

I seem to recall Hawkeye shooting fast moving flying craft without looking and shooting arrows with USB attachments into a computer. let's also not forget that shot from the back of a jet that managed to take out one of the helicarriers engines.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I seem to recall Hawkeye shooting fast moving flying craft without looking and shooting arrows with USB attachments into a computer. let's also not forget that shot from the back of a jet that managed to take out one of the helicarriers engines.

Oliver doesn't have as impressive feats yes, but he's no slouch in accuracy either. Shooting an arrow in mid flight or shooting an arrow into the barrel of a gun is no mean feat.

I see the shots Hawkeye made as being harder, thus the reason I give him the nod in the weapon fights.

Clint could pull off Ollie's feats, but I don't see that working vice versa.

Originally posted by KingD19
Clint could pull off Ollie's feats, but I don't see that working vice versa.

Including speed shooting?

He's a highly trained SHIELD agent, yet they allow him to use a bow and arrow instead of a gun. I'm sure he can speed shoot, especially when he's not trying to make insanely complicated shots that he actually still gets off pretty fast despite them all being pretty much impossible to pull off.

Hawkeye wins bow and arrow fight but Ollie wins h2h

Originally posted by Silent Master
I see the shots Hawkeye made as being harder, thus the reason I give him the nod in the weapon fights. I remember seeing Ollie catch arrows on a few occasions. He should have no trouble catching or dodging any arrows Clint shoots off.

Clint on the other hand, doesn't have the same reaction feats. Yes his shots are better, but thats almost a non-factor against Ollie.

Ollie takes the first two scenario's by putting an arrow in Hawkeye before he can do the same. He takes the third by beating Hawkeye senseless without too much trouble.

Ollie 10/10 pretty easily

Ollie catches and exploding arrow, cool.

Originally posted by Mindset
Ollie catches and exploding arrow, cool.

I remember Loki did that too. Didn't work out great for him. And if you consider that Hawkeye without looking hit a Chitauri zooming by on a speeder going however many mph, and did the same to Loki. Saying Ollie just dodges his arrow is kinda funny.

He can hit moving targets(headshot) going at the least, 40+ miles per hour in the opposite direction while not looking, yet Ollie can just dodge?

He's also not taking into account that different bows have different draw strength and thus the arrows will move at different speeds and given the range of Hawkeye's shots, he is obviously using a very heavy draw strength bow.

Originally posted by Mindset
Ollie catches and exploding arrow, cool. You know, I knew someone would bring that up when I typed that. Ollie can just dodge it and use one of his own exploding arrows. Then Clint can catch it with his face.

Clint is massively outclassed here.

Hawkeye has managed to hit targets that move far faster than Ollie and yet Ollie will somehow not only dodge the arrow but the explosion as well.


Well, it's clear that there is no point in trying to have a real debate with you.

Hawkeye had some ridiculous bow feats in avengers.

That one he shot against the wind, calculating wind speed, curvature, etc and hitting the target was nice too.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Hawkeye has managed to hit targets that move far faster than Ollie and yet Ollie will somehow not only dodge the arrow but the explosion as well.


Well, it's clear that there is no point in trying to have a real debate with you. He didn't do that by pointing right at the objects. He anticipated where they were going and shot. That was skill, not the speed of the arrow.

And skill wont help land shots against a dude who can see, catch, and dodge his shots. Its like putting Deadshot in a battle with Spiderman. It doesn't matter how good of a shot he is. Spidey will dodge the bullet and beat him down. Except now, Spidey is using a gun and is an amazing shot himself. Sure, he's no Deadshot, but he's good enough to hit the target relatively easily and the target cant dodge his bullets like he can the targets.

BTW, Ollie uses a Oneida Kestrel compound bow. Hawkeye uses a Hoyt Buffalo recurve. Both are great, but the Kestrel is considered one of the best. Its price definitely reflects that. Compound bows are more powerful, faster, and easier to shoot than recurves. Hawkeye is outclassed in every area here except for skill, and that wont help him.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
You know, I knew someone would bring that up when I typed that. Ollie can just dodge it and use one of his own exploding arrows. Then Clint can catch it with his face.

Clint is massively outclassed here. Because Renner won't move?

He dodged blaster fire from the chituari.

Originally posted by Mindset
Because Renner won't move?

He dodged blaster fire from the chituari.

Apparently Ollie can outrun explosions.

Originally posted by Arachnid1

BTW, Ollie uses a Oneida Kestrel compound bow. Hawkeye uses a Hoyt Buffalo recurve. Both are great, but the Kestrel is considered one of the best. Its price definitely reflects that. Compound bows are more powerful, faster, and easier to shoot than recurves.

Well, I might not always agree with you, but you obviously know your bows.

Considering he has a very high tech quiver that can select bows based on...I dunno, his finger movements or something, I think it's safe to say Hawkeye's bow is similarly high tech. If it's SHIELD special issue, which it's safe to assume that it is, it probably shoots farther, faster, and easier than any other arrow in the world or something.

In a few months SHIELD R&D reverse engineered the Destroyer fragments and made a doomsday cannon out of it. What do you think they could do with years to work on a bow?

Originally posted by KingD19
Considering he has a very high tech quiver that can select bows based on...I dunno, his finger movements or something, I think it's safe to say Hawkeye's bow is similarly high tech. If it's SHIELD special issue, which it's safe to assume that it is, it probably shoots farther, faster, and easier than any other arrow in the world or something.

In a few months SHIELD R&D reverse engineered the Destroyer fragments and made a doomsday cannon out of it. What do you think they could do with years to work on a bow?

It's the whole real world argument again, just because it looks like a real world bow they are assuming it's performance is limited to real world standards....just like Phil's car is limited to what a real world 1962 Chevrolet Corvette is capable of.

Originally posted by Silent Master
It's the whole real world argument again, just because it looks like a real world bow they are assuming it's performance is limited to real world standards....just like Phil's car is limited to what a real world 1962 Chevrolet Corvette is capable of.

Yeah. It's so limited to the real world that it can fly...wait.

Originally posted by Mindset
Because Renner won't move?

He dodged blaster fire from the chituari. The Chituari rifle blasts were ridiculously easy to follow. They weren't anywhere near as quick as an arrow. And there where multiple scenes where Hawkeye was standing dead still and all the blasts were missing him. Not much dodging. He had one dodge scene the entire fight, and there is nothing to suggest he dodged after the blaster shot, so he could have seen the Chituari aim and get out of the way. God knows the Chitauri weren't much in the way of quick firing (it always took them multiple seconds the aim, and even then all their shots missed for the most part). If he was as speedy and had as amazing a reaction time as you would like me to believe, the dude wouldn't have been handled by Black Widow.

His speed and reaction abilities don't measure up to Ollies. He just doesn't have the feats. He's for damn sure not fast enough to dodge the hail of Arrows Ollie would rain into his face.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Apparently Ollie can outrun explosions. He wont need to. Ollie draws and shoots faster than Clint. Clint takes an arrow to the face from Ollies first shot before he can get off a shot.

And even if Ollie let him shoot off the explosive arrow, assuming Clint was smart enough to shoot it near Ollie as opposed to right at him like he did with Loki which Ollie can effortlessly dodge, Ollie could get off multiple shots in the time that timer took to explode and kill Clint before the explosion gets him. Or he could just run away before the explosion, since that timer was so long.

Ollie could also shoot his explosive arrow out of the air.

The dude has so many options its ridiculous. Clint can not get a shot on him. He can get a shot on Clint. There is nothing Hawkeye can do here.

Originally posted by KingD19
Considering he has a very high tech quiver that can select bows based on...I dunno, his finger movements or something, I think it's safe to say Hawkeye's bow is similarly high tech. If it's SHIELD special issue, which it's safe to assume that it is, it probably shoots farther, faster, and easier than any other arrow in the world or something.

In a few months SHIELD R&D reverse engineered the Destroyer fragments and made a doomsday cannon out of it. What do you think they could do with years to work on a bow? Thats all speculation, but its possible. Still, we literally followed the arrow right out of Hawkeyes hand and into Loki's. It wasn't that quick, so they definitely didn't make it shoot quicker. The bow he used in that movie was a confirmed Hoyt Buffalo. The only visible augmentation to the bow was the fact that it folded up for easier transport and it had a laser attachment to make aiming easier for him.


Why are you guys so against the idea of Ollie winning when its a stomp? Especially you SM. You seem to be getting hostile over this. I mean no disrespect to Hawkeye. He's awesome, but he's outclassed against a main character in a show who does what he does against worse opposition. Worse, its a normal character in a DC world surrounded by gods. He gets elevated above peak human, which is something Hawkeye didn't get outside of his aiming ability, which is why Ollie outclasses him.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I seem to recall Hawkeye shooting fast moving flying craft without looking and shooting arrows with USB attachments into a computer. let's also not forget that shot from the back of a jet that managed to take out one of the helicarriers engines.

And shooting an arrow out of flight is far more impressive due to its size. But it may not have happened which is why I said "I seem to recall".

Originally posted by ares834
And shooting out an arrow is far more impressive due to its size. But it may not have happened which is why I said "I seem to recall".

There's a Danish guy in real life who can shoot arrows out of the air. At least one anyway. It's impressive yeah, but nowhere near as impressive as Hawkeye's shot. Especially since real people can pull it off.


There's real life people like I said who can do that. I dare you however, to find someone in the world who can look one way, let an airspeeder pass him by(which makes the shot more difficult due to it's basically 3 dimensional movement capabilities), quickly take aim, make almost no draw, and blindfire a shot into the back of the drivers head all while he's going 50+.

lol first it was 40+ now its 50+, trying to puff up yer boy eh D19

Hawkeye's feat is less one of archery skill and more an almost supernatural battle awareness. Cool feat, but from an accuracy perspective Ollie's is far more impressive (also I'm sure the Danish guy knew where the arrow was to be shot beforehand). The USB and Hellicarrier shot were great displays of archery skill though.

40, 50. Does it matter? The skiff was going extremely fast and he had a no look, reverse headshot. And as until they say different, Hawkeye has no powers, only extreme skill with a bow and arrow as well as amazing accuracy. So to say shooting an arrow with an arrow (a real world feat that has been done several times) is more impressive than the no look shot is suspect imo. Since nobody in the world can pull off that shot.

And knowing someone will shoot an arrow at you full speed doesn't make it any easier to draw, aim, and shoot it out of the air once it's in flight. Also arrows aren't like bullets and don't always hit dead on.

So basically, people are saying a feat that real world people can almost match is more impressive than a feat that no real world human has ever come close to matching?

well I happen to agree with you on this point D19, I think Hawkeye would be able to beat Ollie in the bow fight but he'd get beat in the h2h one for sure

Originally posted by KingD19
40, 50. Does it matter? The skiff was going extremely fast and he had a no look, reverse headshot. And as until they say different, Hawkeye has no powers, only extreme skill with a bow and arrow as well as amazing accuracy. So to say shooting an arrow with an arrow (a real world feat that has been done several times) is more impressive than the no look shot is suspect imo. Since nobody in the world can pull off that shot.

And knowing someone will shoot an arrow at you full speed doesn't make it any easier to draw, aim, and shoot it out of the air once it's in flight. Also arrows aren't like bullets and don't always hit dead on.

Except, like I said, Hawkeye's feat isn't impressive because of the accuracy but the battlefield awareness. From that standpoint, yes Oliver's feat is far more impressive.

Originally posted by Silent Master
So basically, people are saying a feat that real world people can almost match is more impressive than a feat that no real world human has ever come close to matching?

Only when you strawman people's arguments like usual.

Originally posted by ares834
Only when you strawman people's arguments like usual.

So I'm wrong about you thinking that Ollie's feat was more impressive?

You keep claiming "battlefield awareness", but that's something you came up with. Officially, Hawkeye is just pretty much the best bowman in the marvel universe. If his arrows could keep going, he'd be Yondu from Guardians of the Galaxy.

So it's not battle awareness unless it's officially pointed out, until then it's just he is that damn good.

*sigh*

It's alright. I love you guys. As misguided and delusional as you all are, I love you guys.






























































Except you Mindset. Go choke on a transvestite.

Originally posted by KingD19
You keep claiming "battlefield awareness", but that's something you came up with. Officially, Hawkeye is just pretty much the best bowman in the marvel universe. If his arrows could keep going, he'd be Yondu from Guardians of the Galaxy.

So it's not battle awareness unless it's officially pointed out, until then it's just he is that damn good.


His argument kind of brings back memories, I remember when someone tried arguing that comic Cap throwing his shield long distances had absolutely nothing to do with strength, that instead it was a shield throwing skill feat.

Originally posted by Silent Master
His argument kind of brings back memories, I remember when someone tried arguing that comic Cap throwing his shield long distances had absolutely nothing to do with strength, that instead it was a shield throwing skill feat.


Hahaha what? The skill would come from the ability to make it ricochet off of anything and always come back to him. The damage it does and how far it goes is because he's amped up on super steroids.

Originally posted by KingD19
You keep claiming "battlefield awareness", but that's something you came up with. Officially, Hawkeye is just pretty much the best bowman in the marvel universe. If his arrows could keep going, he'd be Yondu from Guardians of the Galaxy.

So it's not battle awareness unless it's officially pointed out, until then it's just he is that damn good.

Um what? He was able to sense either through sound, smell, or somehow else where this guy was. That's what I'm referring to by "battlefield awareness".

Yes, he is a damn good shot but the feat in question is impressive not because of the shot he made better but the circumstances about it. IE that he knew where his target was going to be without using sight. Now that is what is impressive, that he was able to some how sense where the target was going to be.

This thread has been done to death on countless forums. Hawkeye has better shooting/accuracy feats, but Oliver has him in everything else.

Originally posted by KingD19
Hahaha what? The skill would come from the ability to make it ricochet off of anything and always come back to him. The damage it does and how far it goes is because he's amped up on super steroids.


Yea, it wasn't one of Oats best arguments.

Originally posted by ares834
Um what? He was able to sense either through sound, smell, or somehow else where this guy was. That's what I'm referring to by "battlefield awareness".

Yes, he is a damn good shot but the feat in question is impressive not because of the shot he made better but the circumstances about it. IE that he knew where his target was going to be without using sight. Now that is what is impressive, that he was able to some how sense where the target was going to be.

Unless specifically mentioned as one of his powers, you can't possibly claim that he somehow "sensed them". Hawkeye has never been once been implied as having super senses.

If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out. And HE's been able to dodge lasers before and quickdraw an arrow shot fast enough to he kill a Chitauri sneaking up on him at point blank range while his back was turned before it was able to strike a blow. And you're comparing his "feats" with arrow catching and arrow shooting? Surely there must be better "feats" for Ollie here....

Nope. I'm not going to just assume he can magically shoot arrows at anything he wants. Rather I'm going to look at it "logically" and realize he was some how able to sense the target or perhaps it's something similar to "gunkata".

Anyway, I never said Ollie wins or argued for it so much of you're second paragraph is moot as far as I'm concerned.

So instead of just looking at the feat and saying 'damn, he's good" you're going to make up abilities that aren't stated or even hinted at just so that you can say that the feat is less impressive than it looks.

Except it's hinted at in the feat in question itself.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Unless specifically mentioned as one of his powers, you can't possibly claim that he somehow "sensed them". Hawkeye has never been once been implied as having super senses.

If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out. And HE's been able to dodge lasers before and quickdraw an arrow shot fast enough to he kill a Chitauri sneaking up on him at point blank range while his back was turned before it was able to strike a blow. And you're comparing his "feats" with arrow catching and arrow shooting? Surely there must be better "feats" for Ollie here.... actually Hawkeye has (very very) low level super eyesight and (very very) low level sound loss.

That said idk if this true for the Renner.

Originally posted by ares834
Except it's hinted at in the feat in question itself.

You might as well say that he has a mutant power to never miss and the proof is that he never misses. you are literally making up an ability that has never been mentioned in the MCU.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. I'm not going to just assume he can magically shoot arrows at anything he wants. Rather I'm going to look at it "logically" and realize he was some how able to sense the target or perhaps it's something similar to "gunkata".

Anyway, I never said Ollie wins or argued for it so much of you're second paragraph is moot as far as I'm concerned.

None of that has been alluded to. Gunkata does not exist in the MCU so. I don't really know what you're going about there, I mean wat da...! He has no super senses so, again, that's a made up assumption.

Yes, you didn't say Ollie would win but you did say this:

Originally posted by ares834
Except, like I said, Hawkeye's feat isn't impressive because of the accuracy but the battlefield awareness. From that standpoint, yes Oliver's feat is far more impressive.

And your reasoning was this shooting an arrow in flight is (holy cow!) not just more impressive but FAR more impressive.

You DO understand that shooting an arrow out of the air has as much to do with predicting where the arrow is going to be as much as being able to skillfully aim for it right? That one's ability to predict where one's target is going along with computing where your projectile/missile is going relative to where the target will be at the time it takes to get hit? And that HE's "feat" is essentially this taken to an extreme uber exaggerated level? And essentially, that's what makes up "accuracy" when shooting at moving targets?

Also, I don't know why you would say my second paragraph was moot as this part of it is very important and explains why HE's "feat" is pretty damned impressive.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
actually Hawkeye has (very very) low level super eyesight and (very very) low level sound loss.

That said idk if this true for the Renner.

In comics. In comics, Thor has different abilities as well. We just can't assume such abilities exist until they are explicitly mentioned otherwise we might as well start pulling out random powers from our butts.

Sure, I agreed in my earlier post

That said its not outrageous to think a comic element is in the movie version.

Only it's never been mentioned.....it's like arguing that because at one time comic Thor was able to time travel, movie Thor must also have this ability.

Not really, it's more like assuming Thor has super senses.

Both have shown it's definitely possible, but neither has blatantly said it.
///////
That said the magical/mutant/bs excuse # whatever thing is dumb, Hawkeye is just more skilled.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You might as well say that he has a mutant power to never miss and the proof is that he never misses. you are literally making up an ability that has never been mentioned in the MCU.



Originally posted by Nibedicus
None of that has been alluded to. Gunkata does not exist in the MCU so. I don't really know what you're going about there, I mean wat da...! He has no super senses so, again, that's a made up assumption.

Except that's what the feat itself is proving... Hawkeye was somehow able to sense where the target was so he could take the shot. Either that or he predicted where the target is (something that you brought up) which is essentially part of what gunkata is (hence why I mentioned it).

This is basic stuff here. To shoot a target you have to either know where it is or guess where it is (or be very lucky which is certainly not the case here).

It has just as much evidence to support it as your argument.

Originally posted by ares834




Except that's what the feat itself is proving... Hawkeye was somehow able to sense where the target was so he could take the shot. Either that or he predicted where the target is (something that you brought up) which is essentially part of what gunkata is (hence why I mentioned it).

This is basic stuff here. To shoot a target you have to either know where it is or guess where it is (or be very lucky which is certainly not the case here).

You're essentially ignoring 80% of my post and repeating things I've already debunked.....

Originally posted by Silent Master
It has just as much evidence to support it as your argument.

So how was he able to know where the target was?

He has a mutant power that means he'll never miss.

Originally posted by ares834
So how was he able to know where the target was?

3rd time posting this. I'll do it one more time but that's it.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
If anything, it is an uber exaggerated "feat" of being able to calculate where your target is going to go simply based on predicting where they wanna be or somesuch and aiming an arrow with such extreme accuracy that you bullseye a fast moving target without looking. Simply put, it's marvel's way of telling us that HE is simply just "that good". Yes, I'm sure some level of skill-based battlefield awareness is involved but not at the level you're trying to make it out.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You're essentially ignoring 80% of my post and repeating things I've already debunked.....

No I'm ignoring the fluff to prevent a multiquote debate.


But here, ill respond to the rest. Yes, I realize shooting an arrow out of the sky would take fast reactions and good predictions. But at the end it's still shooting a small fast abject which is why it's damn impressive.

There I addressed it. happy now?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
3rd time posting this. I'll do it one more time but that's it.



Already responded to that with this:

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. I'm not going to just assume he can magically shoot arrows at anything he wants. Rather I'm going to look at it "logically" and realize he was some how able to sense the target or perhaps it's something similar to "gunkata".

Anyway, I never said Ollie wins or argued for it so much of you're second paragraph is moot as far as I'm concerned.

The first two sentences basically address it.

Originally posted by ares834


Already responded to that with this:



The first two sentences basically address it.

Do you just really ignore/interpret ppl's arguments to suit your needs or what?

I explained it pretty well how it works logically and not "magically". If you want to close you eyes and go "la la la, not gonna believe this!!!", well I won't stop you. But that only proves how wrong you are and unable to rebut my points.

/shrug

Edit. The funny part is that "you're not gonna assume that he can magically" do something but you're gonna go ahead and assume he has super powers. Cuz magic is just a lot less logical than super powerszz!!!1one

/le sigh

The f*** are you going on about? I'm not the one ignoring arguments here. I even consented that it could be based on prediction in that very post by comparing it to gunkata (which is based on advanced predictions) and actually directly mentioned the word prediction later on when I clarified what I meant by using the term...

And no I never once assumed super powers. But thanks for strawmaning.

That Danish archer (Lars Anderson) uses a low poundage bow, maybe 20 or so pounds. Plus he probably had multiple takes trying to shoot that other arrow out of the air. Completely different from trying to catch or shoot an arrow shot from a high poundage bow.

Hawkeye shoots a recurve, Oliver shoots a compound. If we're talking pure arrow speed and piercing power, recurves can't contend with compounds.

Originally posted by ares834
The f*** are you going on about? I'm not the one ignoring arguments here. I even consented that it could be based on prediction in that very post by comparing it to gunkata (which is based on advanced predictions) and actually directly mentioned the word prediction later on when I clarified what I meant by using the term...

Gunkata is "predictive" shooting via statistical knowledge of best location of a target to create optimal killzones AFAIR.

But if you're only thinking about the "predicting" part. Then in a tiny, salvageable portion of your post you're finally getting it. And if you are, I just don't see how you're still not getting the gist of my argument unless you're being intentionally obtuse...

Originally posted by ares834
And no I never once assumed super powers. But thanks for strawmaning.

Oh, pardon me. I meant ALMOST "supernatural".

Originally posted by ares834
Hawkeye's feat is less one of archery skill and more an almost supernatural battle awareness.

Cuz I'm sure either hearing, smelling or w/e sensing a moving target very long range and being able to shoot it with just that sensory input is just ALMOST superhuman...

Originally posted by ares834
Um what? He was able to sense either through sound, smell, or somehow else where this guy was. That's what I'm referring to by "battlefield awareness

Hence the quotation marks. Not to mention I clarified it in the next post directed to you... Had you actually read my posts you would have grasped this.

So you admit you stramaned me. Cool.

And I don't know if you realize this, but these character are able to perform feats that no human is capable of.

Originally posted by FrothByte
That Danish archer (Lars Anderson) uses a low poundage bow, maybe 20 or so pounds. Plus he probably had multiple takes trying to shoot that other arrow out of the air. Completely different from trying to catch or shoot an arrow shot from a high poundage bow.

Hawkeye shoots a recurve, Oliver shoots a compound. If we're talking pure arrow speed and piercing power, recurves can't contend with compounds.

Yet of the two, the recurve has made further shots, more accurate shots, faster shots, etc...

Also you're assuming his bow is just a bow he got from Wal-Mart. It's clearly custom made considering not only can he fold it up, but he can whack super durable aliens without it breaking. His quiver is incredibly high tech and has an auto selector. Why would his bow just be an ordinary, run of the mill bow?

Originally posted by ares834
Hence the quotation marks. Not to mention I clarified it in the next post directed to you... Had you actually read my posts you would have grasped this.

Pls quote w/c "question marks" you mean and how these addresses what I posted.

And, unlike you, I actually quoted what you said and addressed them individually. So drop the wholly unoriginal "had you read" schtick. You have no ground to stand on there.

Originally posted by ares834
So you admit you stramaned me. Cool.

Slightly misquoted, maybe. Irrelevant as the basic gist was there as well as an explanation on why the word "almost" was silly and thus disregarded.

I'm not sure strawmanning means what you think it means....

And the "oh noes! He strawmanzd me" schtick kinda reeks of desperation, don't you think?

Originally posted by ares834
And I don't know if you realize this, but these character are able to perform feats that no human is capable of.

Hence, HE's "feat" being far more impressive than Ollie's as it blows his "feat" away in every factor that is required in the "accuracy" involved in shooting moving objects. Like midflight arrows and alien speeders.

Originally posted by KingD19
Yet of the two, the recurve has made further shots, more accurate shots, faster shots, etc...

Also you're assuming his bow is just a bow he got from Wal-Mart. It's clearly custom made considering not only can he fold it up, but he can whack super durable aliens without it breaking. His quiver is incredibly high tech and has an auto selector. Why would his bow just be an ordinary, run of the mill bow?


None of those facts matter to them.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Pls quote w/c "question marks" you mean and how these addresses what I posted.

And, unlike you, I actually quoted what you said and addressed them individually. So drop the wholly unoriginal "had you read" schtick. You have no ground to stand on there.

facepalm

You tell me to drop "have you read shtick" yet here you are misreading my post yet again... I said quotation marks not question marks...

And here I even quoted the word in question.

Originally posted by ares834
"gunkata"

These quotation marks around the word mean I don't literally mean he used it but rather something vaguely similar. I then clarified it in a subsequent post regardless.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Slightly misquoted, maybe. Irrelevant as the basic gist was there as well as an explanation on why the word "almost" was silly and thus disregarded.

I'm not sure strawmanning means what you think it means....

And the "oh noes! He strawmanzd me" schtick kinda reeks of desperation, don't you think?

Not as much as stramaning in the first place... Also, like I said these characters are borderline super human anyway. One of them having senses greater than any human isn't that crazy considering they already are far more skilled any human. (Bringing up smell was, admittedly, a bit of a joke on my part though and not meant to be taken seriously.)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Hence, HE's "feat" being far more impressive than Ollie's as it blows his "feat" away in every factor that is required in the "accuracy" involved in shooting moving objects. Like midflight arrows and alien speeders.

Except it's not a more accurate shot. I've never understood why people hang onto this feat so much. Frankly, Clint's helecarrier shot was more impressive (and thinking about it, it may be better than any of Ollie's.)

Anyway of to bed.

Originally posted by ares834
facepalm

You tell me to drop "have you read shtick" yet here you are misreading my post yet again... I said quotation marks not question marks...


Gotta admit. I misread that one. But it's 3am. Getting a bit crosseyed here. But misreading a single word due to sleepiness =/= not reading your posts at all. Learn to differentiate.

Originally posted by ares834
And here I even quoted the word in question.

These quotation marks around the word mean I don't literally mean he used it but rather something vaguely similar. I then clarified it in a subsequent post regardless.

The only similarity or relationship between HE's accuracy and Gunkata (IIRC) is that somewhere between the two, you need to do predictive targeting.... But whilst one requires knowledge in the optimal statistical targeting to optimize killzones, the other requires intuitive calculation and targeting for pinpoint accuracy. Worlds apart.

And I did mention that if you're meaning the fact that some predicting is involved between, then you're actually starting to get it to some tiny extent.

Originally posted by ares834
Not as much as stramaning in the first place...

If you're still accusing me of strawmanning, you need to look up what strawmanning means.

Originally posted by ares834
Also, like I said these characters are borderline super human anyway. One of them having senses greater than any human isn't that crazy considering they already are far more skilled any human. (Bringing up smell was, admittedly, a bit of a joke on my part though.)

Except "borderline" super senses. (as if "borderline" super senses could actually explain how he did it) was never alluded to anywhere in the move.

Super accuracy, tho....

Originally posted by ares834
Except it's not a more accurate shot. I've never understood why people find hang onto this feat so.much. Frankly, Clint's helecarrier shot was more impressive (and thinking about it, it may be better than any of Ollie's.)

Except it IS an accurate shot in every criteria that would deem it an accurate shot...

Originally posted by KingD19
Yet of the two, the recurve has made further shots, more accurate shots, faster shots, etc...

Also you're assuming his bow is just a bow he got from Wal-Mart. It's clearly custom made considering not only can he fold it up, but he can whack super durable aliens without it breaking. His quiver is incredibly high tech and has an auto selector. Why would his bow just be an ordinary, run of the mill bow?

Would you mind posting links to these facts? I've been an archer for 8 years and these don't hold up to what I know about bows. But who knows, I'm not perfect, so if you could post links to these it would be great.

Besides, you talk as if only Hawkeye has access to high tech weaponry and Oliver just bought his bow from some hunting shop. In fact, Oliver's bow WAS mentioned in the show to be custom made. We don't know anything from Hawkeye's bow.

Now that I think about it, I feel like the lot of you are making too many assumptions about Hawkeye, like

1. his bow is probably custom made
2. he can probably speed shoot
3. he can probably shoot an arrow from mid flight

despite the fact that we have no feats to back this up.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Now that I think about it, I feel like the lot of you are making too many assumptions about Hawkeye, like

1. his bow is probably custom made
2. he can probably speed shoot
3. he can probably shoot an arrow from mid flight

despite the fact that we have no feats to back this up.

1. The tech attachements on his bow alone plus the fact that it is collapsible and durable enough to strike superhumans effectively would imply that wouldn't it? Not an expert on bows but wouldn't the fact that he was able to hit the targets that he hit at those range and manage to penetrate armored targets imply that the bow had superior range/penetration than a normal recurve?
2. There are 3 instances of this. One was when a Chitauri snuck up on him from behind, he turned around and head shotted the Chitauri before it could strike. The other was when he knee-slid under a Chitauri melee strike at his head and drew+fired a split second when he stood up. Plus his melee fight with BW where he fired off a few quick shots as they were fighting.
3. No one said he did this. Just that his "feats" (like the one that has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread) poop on mid arrow shooting.

Those certainly seem like "feats" to me.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. The tech attachements on his bow alone plus the fact that it is collapsible and durable enough to strike superhumans effectively would imply that wouldn't it? Not an expert on bows but wouldn't the fact that he was able to hit the targets that he hit at those range and manage to penetrate armored targets imply that the bow had superior range/penetration than a normal recurve?
2. There are 3 instances of this. One was when a Chitauri snuck up on him from behind, he turned around and head shotted the Chitauri before it could strike. The other was when he knee-slid under a Chitauri melee strike at his head and drew+fired a split second when he stood up. Plus his melee fight with BW where he fired off a few quick shots as they were fighting.
3. No one said he did this. Just that his "feats" (like the one that has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread) poop on mid arrow shooting.

Those certainly seem like "feats" to me.

When you say "normal recurve", what exactly do you mean? Because recurve bows comes in many different poundages and designs, and all of them will shoot differently.

As for his speed shooting, I have to admit I forgot about those scenes you mentioned. Thanks for reminding me. Still think Oliver shoots faster based on more consistent feats.

Hawkeye's best shooting feats are mostly done against stationary targets where he has lots of time to prepare (hellicarrier and USB shot). The blind shot against the chitauri speedster was awesome, but it was done against an object moving at a (seemingly) constant velocity that was travelling in a straight trajectory.

Oliver's feats on the other hand were usually done when he didn't have that much time to prepare. Shooting an arrow into a gun barrel for example, IIRC he had to pull an arrow from his quiver, nock it, draw and shoot the gun barrel as his opponent was aiming the gun. Shooting the arrow in mid flight, again he didn't have time to prepare for that shot. Shooting a bow from a motorcycle against another vehicle, etc.

Different kinds of skill required to do the feats, but I won't say Hawkeye's feats are BETTER. Fancier yes, but considering the situations they happened in, Oliver's feats are pretty much on the same difficulty level.

Hawk
Arrow
Arrow

I see Hawkeye sweeping

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Hawk
Arrow
Arrow

Kinda my thoughts as well. Or if anything, the matches should at least be close.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Kinda my thoughts as well. Or if anything, the matches should at least be close.

Hawk wins round 1 because his arrows are more powerful, not as versatile, but defiantly more destructive.

Arrow wins round 2 because as we saw with the black widow fight. Hawk has trouble with up close shooting against a quick opponent. Oliver, however, has shown better skill while Hawk has really only shown more accuracy.

Round 3 goes to arrow because Hawk (Even with his bow) got put down by BW and she was holding back.