Freedon Nadd vs Tulak Hord vs Marka Ragnos

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Kosmos Supreme
Who's the strongest of the ancient sith

Trocity
Marka Ragnos.

http://i40.tinypic.com/29vzdr9.jpg

ChaosTheory123
Huh

Never thought I'd see that outside of EndlessMike's joke respect thread

The Merchant
Dunno, the hype for Hord and Ragnos is above Nadd though.

carthage
Nadd

NewGuy01
I disagree strongly, but alas I can't choose between these three either, Kosmos.

Q99
Freedon Nadd was mostly the warlord of one planet who's spirit was then blown up by Exar Kun. I do not consider him one of the all time greats.

NewGuy01
1. Killed more Jedi than any Sith preceding him.
-With a Pistol.
2. Was apparently said to be the greatest Sorcerer up to his time, and mastered almost every Force Power.
-His hand-me-downs were practically the core of Exar's, and Zannah's knowledge of Sorcery.
3. Destroyed Naga Sadow, who himself is "one of the all time greats"

Freedon Nadd is exceptionally powerful; Bane recognized him as one of the Sith he aspired to rival as well.

The Merchant
Yeah Nadd is really powerful, actually that accolade of his pistol feat probably gives him an edge over Hord....

Q99
Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Killed more Jedi than any Sith preceding him.
-With a Pistol.

I'll note that's either unlikely or easy depending on how you count it. 99% of the sith before him never met a Jedi, after all.

There was the HYD, who's 'Dark Jedi' may or may not be counted as sith in that at all, then millennia of isolation, then the short Great Hyperspace War where there was not all that much Jedi/Sith fighting.

He, meanwhile, went out and conquered one planet, after apparently searching a bit for the right one, and he lived there until his death. There could've been Jedi killed during his searching, but if so, it's unknown. Finally in the end, the Jedi found out about his world, sent 'a team' to it, and they beat and killed him.

So, the Hundred Year Darkness ones. They lived for over a hundred years and fought Jedi constantly during that time. It seems... highly unlikely that he beat them, but they weren't called sith at the time, so perhaps they're not even included.

The Great Hyperspace War ones, he does have to bet the ones there, but as it was a short-lived conflict decided, in large part, in space, that's actually believable for him to beat.

He wasn't in any great, long battles. He was a lone marauder eventually killed by a strike force- not an army.

If you look at the history, if one doesn't include the HYD Dark Jedi, then... well, there simply wasn't all that much opportunity for Jedi killing before Nadd!

If we assume some killings in his wanderings, we could be talking about a dozen or two Jedi and it'd be accurate. Could be a bit more than that.. but point is, we don't need a gigantically huge number. He never fought in a war vs the Jedi.



Said by whom, and how could they judge?

I mean, before him we have immortals (Andeddu) who made world-threatening sorcery plagues (Muur).

Nadd's more recent, records may not be intact on older ones. He may be famous in part because he's one of the few Sith that the Jedi actually met. Every one during the Sith Empire, they didn't encounter save for those at the war, and of the ones that survived the war, apparently several went out and caused trouble, and Freedon Nadd was supposed to be easily the worst of those batch. So that gets kinda famous.




Destroyed his spirit. Most of the time, spirits are less powerful than the originals.




He's strong, but, like... normal-strong, if that makes sense. The level of a strong sith ruler to be sure, but the level a number of strong sith rulers have risen to.

His feats don't seem better than Naga Sadow's. Knowing all the known force techniques of the time is something like Naga and Ragnos both did.

We have a few impressive vague statements about him, but looking at his timeline, his accomplishments are relatively tepid. I mean, his sorcery, the highest level sorcery powers we know of him is essence transfer, which, while rare and in itself qualifies one in the upper ranks, was also known by a couple beforehand.


Ragnos? He's stronger than Naga Sadow- the living Naga Sadow! and Ludo Kressh and many other sith. He lived over a hundred years, and expanded the sith empire significantly in his time, and managed to be a sith that died of *old age*. That's impressive.

ILS
All I hear is Nadd lowballing tbh

Q99
Originally posted by ILS
All I hear is Nadd lowballing tbh

Well, that's one of the problems: We've got conflicting datapoints on him.

His life story offers very little opportunity for his hype to happen (other than stuff like 'is a great sorcerer).


Though don't get me wrong- Tulak's just as bad in that regard! He literally could not have met a Jedi going by the galactic history but he's supposed to have been in battles where a thousand Jedi died. Which, mind you, often accounts for a significant portion of the order (Jedi orders often being around 10k Jedi, sometimes less).


Marka, say what you will about him (interrupter of lightsaber duels!), at least all of his feats and accolades where they could actually happen.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Q99
I'll note that's either unlikely or easy depending on how you count it. 99% of the sith before him never met a Jedi, after all.

Well supposedly that wasn't the case in Tulak Hord's time, since supposedly he cut through hordes of Jedi single-handedly.



Who said the quote talked about Sith? He killed more Jedi with his blaster alone than anyone else in history.



The quote was in KOTOR II, so it applies to Revan's and Exar's reign as well.



Both quotes are from sourcebooks.



In some ways.



I'm just gonna recommend you wait for ILS's Freedon Nadd respect thread, tbh.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Killed more Jedi than any Sith preceding him.
-With a Pistol.
2. Was apparently said to be the greatest Sorcerer up to his time, and mastered almost every Force Power.
-His hand-me-downs were practically the core of Exar's, and Zannah's knowledge of Sorcery.
3. Destroyed Naga Sadow, who himself is "one of the all time greats"

Freedon Nadd is exceptionally powerful; Bane recognized him as one of the Sith he aspired to rival as well.
Nadd get under Marka Ragnoss power....

ares834
Based solely on hype, Hord wins. No contest.

Sinious
Originally posted by ares834
Based solely on hype, Hord wins. No contest.

thumb up

carthage
Depends on the situation.

Nadd per sourcebooks knew all of the darkside techniques, was capable of creating two immense DS nexuses on his death, was capable of severing Exar from the force/disrupting his telepathic link to Vodo, and was capable of shattering Exar's bones even when dead. The guy is an immense powerhouse even based on his limited showings in TOTJ, whereas, Hord's feats really are more hard to pin down. Are they both based on hype, yeah- but Nadd's at least have some basis on actual showings. A duel between them would be based on if Hord could actually deal with Nadd's immense force power- iirc in a scan Ant provided Nadd actually did poorly in a duel. But I really doubt Hord would have an answer to Nadd's power (which is tremendous), but he'd more than likely kill in sabers.

Its hard to say

Stigma
Tool'ak Hord > Mark A. Ragnos > Freedon Nadd

carthage
facepalm

Stigma
Someone had to point that out.

NewGuy01
I always thought it was "Marco Ragnos" and "morganFreeman Nadd"

Stigma
Originally posted by NewGuy01
"morganFreeman Nadd"
I would see that movie thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Tulak Hord solidly.

Originally posted by Stigma
Tool'ak Hord > Mark A. Ragnos > Freedon Nadd
thumb up

Minor correction in names though:

Tulak Hord > Marka Ragnos > Freedon Nadd

psmith81992
Based on nothing more than speculation.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by psmith81992
Based on nothing more than speculation.
Tulak Hord is very impressive, as per latest revelations. He have extraordinary combat record, showings of power, and mastery of dark sorcery.

psmith81992
So does Ragnos, as well as a century worth of rule.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by psmith81992
Based on nothing more than speculation.

To be fair, all three of them are based around speculation. erm

But yeh. I dunno who wins.

Trocity
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Tulak Hord is very impressive, as per latest revelations. He have extraordinary combat record, showings of power, and mastery of dark sorcery.

Why do you talk like that?

Selenial
Originally posted by Trocity
Why do you talk like that?

He have learned english as a second language.

Though so did I, so that's a pitiful excuse.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Trocity
Why do you talk like that?
Why are you so concerned about accuracy of English in a forum such as this one?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by psmith81992
So does Ragnos, as well as a century worth of rule.
Well: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t595436.html

Trocity
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why are you so concerned about accuracy of English in a forum such as this one?

I was only curious as to why you spoke like that.

Mad or?

Trocity
Originally posted by Selenial
He have learned english as a second language.

Though so did I, so that's a pitiful excuse.

English isn't your first language?

Yeah, you did a way better job of learning it.

Selenial
Originally posted by Trocity
English isn't your first language?

Yeah, you did a way better job of learning it.

I learned Norwegian simultaneously. I ended up speaking later than most due to my parents each speaking to me in a different language (so I knew both). I had pretty much caught up with other kids by age 2, and t that point spoke both languages as well as they spoke one.

thumb up

NewGuy01
Ah, bilingual then

Selenial
Well I also speak French and Spanish.... But yeh

psmith81992
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t595436.html

I am well aware of Hord's feats as I have played the game in its entirety. And yes, he has more hyperbole surrounding him than Ragnos.

The Merchant
Eh I think Ragnos should be above Hord for some reason.

Q99
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well supposedly that wasn't the case in Tulak Hord's time, since supposedly he cut through hordes of Jedi single-handedly.

The only way that makes sense is if they were Dark Jedi who didn't adopt the name sith, or if some Sith converted lightside, because the Jedi of the Republic did not know about the Sith Empire.




Which, frankly, doesn't make sense and is contradicted by his timeline.

Really whoever did the blurb, and the 'Tulak killing Jedi' one, just threw out stuff to sound cool. Now, Tulak was certainly in a place to fight force users so it makes sense to just be the wrong word, but Nadd's blaster quote really doesn't make any sense.

The Hundred Year Darkness had individuals fight Jedi for a century.

Nadd killed his Jedi master, wandered for awhile, and then was attacked and killed by a team of Jedi. And in that, he got a better kill count with just his blaster than people who fought in wars for a much longer period?

It's hyperbole that doesn't match up for known data.

It'd be akin to listing Vong kill counts of a KotoR character. It just does not make sense, and even if, say, a New Sith War character was listed as having an "Axe that killed more Yuuzhan Vong than any blaster," the correct response is to be quite suspicious of that quote.




It's pretty clear Exar's considered stronger than him, for one point.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Q99 The only way that makes sense is if they were Dark Jedi who didn't adopt the name sith, or if some Sith converted lightside, because the Jedi of the Republic did not know about the Sith Empire.

It's called a retcon.




What, so your argument is that canon is invalid because you deem it so?

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
Eh I think Ragnos should be above Hord for some reason.

IIRC, Ragnos has accolades calling him the greatest Sith Lord up to his death where as Hord is only one of the greatest

Could be the reason why *shrugs*

NewGuy01
Ragnos has no such quotes.

ChaosTheory123
Remembered the wording a bit wrong

http://web.archive.org/web/20080629030120/http://www.starwars.com/gaming/videogames/news/news20041109.html

This is what I was thinking of though

Could be taken a few ways in theory though

The Merchant
I remembered some of Nihilus's troops on Nadd's temple on Dxun, did they make any comparison to its strength in comparison to Nihilus's? All I remember was how great they felt because of how powerful Nadd's energies were.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
I remembered some of Nihilus's troops on Nadd's temple on Dxun, did they make any comparison to its strength in comparison to Nihilus's? All I remember was how great they felt because of how powerful Nadd's energies were.

I don't remember much of that part of the game anymore honestly

Kind of curious why they needed Nadd's power if Nihilus was so amazing, but I always advocate that the ****er is overrated

The Merchant
Freedon Nadd has an accolade where he was "Far worse than Revan and Malak ever were." Wonder how that could be interpreted as? Visas was also impressed by the Tomb's power if you take her in the tomb.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
Freedon Nadd has an accolade where he was "Far worse than Revan and Malak ever were." Wonder how that could be interpreted as?

Where's that from? :hmm

The Merchant
lEm60UQbKUA

Besides that, there's nothing much. Statement is at the 4:30 mark.

ChaosTheory123
Hmm

When it's not third person narrative?

I'd take it with a grain of salt without some reason is given, be it from word of god or in story ability, for the person making the statement to know what they're talking about

Word of God hasn't said the statement holds weight nor does the ****er showcase that he has psychometry/clairvoyance on the level of Darth Cognus/Traya to actually glean this for himself by actually viewing and gauging their powers himself.

You might be better off trying to pursue Marr's statement if you can somehow link it to Nihilus

The Merchant
Semi on-topic, but Nadd should get power-scaling from Sadow and Kressh, and Kressh created Gauntlets that tank turbolaser blasts.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
Semi on-topic, but Nadd should get power-scaling from Sadow and Kressh, and Kressh created Gauntlets that tank turbolaser blasts.

Nadd kind of killed Sadow or at least defeated his spirit

IIRC, there are multiple explanations of what state of being Sadow was in

Bear in mind though? Sort of unnecessary to put yourself into stasis as Sadow did if you're dead so...

I'd take it as Nadd outright winning myself

http://i.imgur.com/JRX0yZ6.png
http://i.imgur.com/T6rLXYf.png

Both Nadd and Sadow also seem to know Force Storm, with Sadow even having the precision feats to shut up anyone about lacking control

Given the ****er could modulate between causing Solar Flares and Super Nova on his Corsair? One basically being a drop of water in terms of energy (solar flare) compared to the ocean of a ****ing super nova?

I'm pretty sure he doesn't need to worry about control :hmm

The Merchant
I thought Palpatine was the first user of the Force Storm, unless you're referencing the Force Lightning Storm?

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
I thought Palpatine was the first user of the Force Storm, unless you're referencing the Force Lightning Storm?

http://i.imgur.com/dcbri8s.png
http://i.imgur.com/gu57JEy.png
http://i.imgur.com/QgFzws9.png

From Tales of the Jedi Companion

Sidious isn't the first, and it was even considered a Jedi power in both TotJ Companion and The Jedi Path (well, it was, but they recently labeled it dark sided as of the writing post Ruusan IIRC)

http://i.imgur.com/St4mqxm.png

The Merchant
That's lame. And if that's supposed to be a general description of what the force power does doesn't that mean anyone with the ability could replicate those effects?

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
That's lame. And if that's supposed to be a general description of what the force power does doesn't that mean anyone with the ability could replicate those effects?

You'd need the power and control to initiate usage of it

Think of it being the Flare or Meteor to Force Lightning's Fire and Force Maelstrom's Fira/Firaga if you're familiar with JRPG spell tiers (most specifically Final Fantasy)

Q99
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123

Given the ****er could modulate between causing Solar Flares and Super Nova on his Corsair? One basically being a drop of water in terms of energy (solar flare) compared to the ocean of a ****ing super nova?

Even Keto could cause supernovae in the Corsair. That's really more ship than user, y'know?



Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's called a retcon.

And yet, nothing's actually said the timeline is wrong in such a major way, no additional Jedi/Sith wars have been named, and it's still explicit that the Jedi did not know where the Sith were at the time.

With Hord, there are a few ways one could interpret it without requiring *too* much twisting, there is a history of using 'dark jedi' as a generic. With Nadd... nah, it just doesn't work unless the statement is hyperbole.


And that's in-universe. Out of universe, the real explanation is simply sloppiness/lack of fact checking.





No, my argument is it is hyperbole because it is contradicted heavily by the stories of Freedon Nadd's life, in multiple sources.

Is your argument that the description of a piece of equipment overrides multiple tellings of a character's life?

Because it seems to me like you'd just choosing what's convenient to your argument no matter how poorly it fits with anything else.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Q99
Even Keto could cause supernovae in the Corsair. That's really more ship than user, y'know?

Yeah, and she died for her efforts because she never learned how to modulate how much power she could use with it

Was sort of Qel-Droma's and Kun's plan for revenge and getting rid of her and Crado

With great power comes the need for some actual control in using it

Even something as comparatively pithy as Kun's initial performance with Naga Sadow's Amulet on Yavin IV with the Sith Wyrm had him going out of control just because of the power the amulet gave him.

Control is a major part of using their powers, and Sadow proved he had much of that in spades by showing how well he could control the amount of power he released with the Corsair

Q99
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Yeah, and she died for her efforts because she never learned how to modulate how much power she could use with it

Was sort of Qel-Droma's and Kun's plan for revenge and getting rid of her and Crado

With great power comes the need for some actual control in using it

Even something as comparatively pithy as Kun's initial performance with Naga Sadow's Amulet on Yavin IV with the Sith Wyrm had him going out of control just because of the power the amulet gave him.

Control is a major part of using their powers, and Sadow proved he had much of that in spades by showing how well he could control the amount of power he released with the Corsair


True, there's absolutely no doubt he's a good deal more skilled.

It just shows that that's the tricky part of the Corsair, the control, rather than the omph.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Q99
And yet, nothing's actually said the timeline is wrong in such a major way, no additional Jedi/Sith wars have been named, and it's still explicit that the Jedi did not know where the Sith were at the time.

Yet we also know that the Jedi sieged an Imperial Stronghold on Yn, and that Tulak Hord led his forces to slaughter a Jedi force on Chabosh, all long prior to the GHW.



It contradicts only with your ideas, not with the actual story.

Trocity
Originally posted by Selenial
I learned Norwegian simultaneously. I ended up speaking later than most due to my parents each speaking to me in a different language (so I knew both). I had pretty much caught up with other kids by age 2, and t that point spoke both languages as well as they spoke one


That's really impressive. The only other language I know is french and I still can't understand Revanchiste.

psmith81992
I don't think the swtor writers retconned anything. They just didn't do their homework and lazily wrote in Hord's accomplishments, regardless of the canon timelime.

Jmanghan
bump

TheMuser
Ragnos should win, Hord is out by default via Ragnos>All sith of his time/before quote. Unless someone can tell me how via quotes he>Ragnos this is a done fight.

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by TheMuser
Ragnos should win, Hord is out by default via Ragnos>All sith of his time/before quote. Unless someone can tell me how via quotes he>Ragnos this is a done fight. thumb up

Freedon Nadd
The problem is that Freedon Nadd can be hardly classified as Sith Lord. He displayed no traits of them(except for the lust of planet conquering) Even, then, he stopped at one.

I would daresay, the new lore regarding Nadd has been mistaken about his nature as Dark Side warrior. It's obvious that Nadd should be classified more as a Dark Jedi rather than a Sith Lord.

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