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Mara Jade. 10/10

Mara jade 10/10 sorry kit

Probably Kit.

Mara Jade has taken on Darth Caedus (not at his prime but still leauges ahead of Kit Fisto) and Lumiya who has given Luke Skywalker trouble on many occasions.

Not only is Mara Batman, but she's fought tougher foes on numerous occasions. Mara's got it.

Mara Jade solidly wins this one.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Not only is Mara Batman, but she's fought tougher foes on numerous occasions. Mara's got it.

Justice?

But yeah, Mara solidly wins this.

I wonder how badly this forum would be hit with a shitstorm if the B-Team actually had fans with enough drive to defend them...

Mara.

Originally posted by ILS
I wonder how badly this forum would be hit with a shitstorm if the B-Team actually had fans with enough drive to defend them...

You disagree with the verdict?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You disagree with the verdict? I disagree with Mara winning in anything short of a hard fight.

-

Originally posted by ILS
I disagree with Mara winning in anything short of a hard fight.

Originally posted by ILS
I wonder how badly this forum would be hit with a shitstorm if the B-Team actually had fans with enough drive to defend them...

I think they have to many already, people frequently put them against high tier foes (Onomi vs Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin vs Darth Malgus, Plo Koon vs Darth Vader and Kit Fisto vs Cade Skywalker), they're not combat gods they can take on foes the next level below.
Ven Zallow vs Kit Fisto, Wolf Sazeen vs Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin vs Vindican are all good match ups.

Mara Jade just about edges it, High Council members aren't the pawns they are viewed as around here.

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
I think they have to many already, people frequently put them against high tier foes (Onomi vs Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin vs Darth Malgus, Plo Koon vs Darth Vader and Kit Fisto vs Cade Skywalker), they're not combat gods they can take on foes the next level below.
Ven Zallow vs Kit Fisto, Wolf Sazeen vs Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin vs Vindican are all good match ups. I think the best part about this post is that Plo Koon isn't even in the B-Team.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Mara Jade just about edges it, High Council members aren't the pawns they are viewed as around here.



nBsNc_KM5MI

Jango killing a council member is kind of justifiable.

It's that he died so easily and pathetically that's the problem.

Mara Jade; one of the sexiest Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's that he died so easily and pathetically that's the problem. Well tbf the guy did carve through hundreds of droids before Jango killed him. He's not a push over, Jango's just that good.

Originally posted by ILS
Jango killing a council member is kind of justifiable.

Sure. If he did it in more than a handful of shots...

Jedi aren't elected to the council on the merits of their martial skills (Coleman Trebor was apparently the galaxy's most badass diplomat, whereas esteemed duelists like Anoon Bondera and Cin Drallig never made it to the council). So the performance of one council member can hardly be representative of them all, for good or worse.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Jedi aren't elected to the council on the merits of their martial skills (Coleman Trebor was apparently the galaxy's most badass diplomat, whereas esteemed duelists like Anoon Bondera and Cin Drallig never made it to the council).

Yeah but why are we bringing logic into this? Trebor is probably an historical anomaly being elected with such weak strength which makes some sense given that the Council has seen a thousand years of peace from the Sith.

Don't know why he's being shown as a baseline of anything.

Originally posted by ILS
I wonder how badly this forum would be hit with a shitstorm if the B-Team actually had fans with enough drive to defend them...

We have people defend Fisto and Kolar all the time.


Heck, I defend Fisto! I think he's the best of the B-team and a very solid fighter.


Originally posted by ILS
I disagree with Mara winning in anything short of a hard fight.

Oh, it'll definitely be effort. Mara is the stronger, but Fisto isn't an easy matchup for almost anyone.




Originally posted by Tzeentch
Jedi aren't elected to the council on the merits of their martial skills (Coleman Trebor was apparently the galaxy's most badass diplomat, whereas esteemed duelists like Anoon Bondera and Cin Drallig never made it to the council). So the performance of one council member can hardly be representative of them all, for good or worse.

Council isn't *just* strength, but when one is elected to the council for strength, that's generally a good sign of how strong they are. Fisto, Tiin, Kolar, Ki-Adi, Shaak Ti? They all got their slots based on being rather badass.


The fact of the matter is, most of the order's strongest warriors are on the council, and tend to clump around a few strength ranges.

I'd be interested in hearing an actual argument for Mara.

Originally posted by Based
Yeah but why are we bringing logic into this? Trebor is probably an historical anomaly being elected with such weak strength which makes some sense given that the Council has seen a thousand years of peace from the Sith.

Don't know why he's being shown as a baseline of anything.

Trebor being on the council clearly shows that members of the council are not chosen by strength (at least during that era). So the fact that a Jedi is on the Council does not mean they are a bad ass combatants and can be little more than fodder.

In swtore it states that while strength isn't a deciding factor in becoming a member of the council, the best candidates are usually those with a naturally strong affinity with the Force. Like that the wisest Jedi tend to be the most powerful anyway.

Originally posted by Q99
We have people defend Fisto and Kolar all the time.

And it always causes a shitstorm. Point proven.



Not really, Council strength can vary massively.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And it always causes a shitstorm. Point proven.

Eh, situational. And point is, they have defenders.



At the top and bottom, sure, but there's definite clumping.


Plo Koon, Shaak Ti, Fisto, Mundi, Kolar, Tiin, Adi Galli. There's a gentle curve there, while there's differences they aren't too far apart.

And if you take characters from other eras, they slot in there fine too, with Corran Horn more around the Plo Koon zone, Kam Solusar near the lower end, Wolf Sazen, Ven Zallow, etc..

Zallow wasn't a Councillor, nor is Sazen to my memory.

If you believe feebs like Vrook Lamar or Kavar--perhaps a couple of their day's best--are in the same boat, or 'clump' as Kit Fisto or Depa Billaba, I would think that's where we disagree.

Ven Zallow wasn't a council member?

Interesting.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zallow wasn't a Councillor, nor is Sazen to my memory.

Equivalents, at least.

TOR doesn't talk much about it's council oddly enough, but Zallow's one of it's top people, and Legacy didn't get around to officially re-filling it's council.





Ok, the thing about Vrook and Kavar is... we know only a little about their direct combat ability. So part of that is simply ignorance, we don't know exactly where they fit.

It wouldn't surprise me if Vrook was, like, Tiin/Kolar level. What I call 'mid council,' the bottom half of the clump, maybe. Considering he did get sent as the lead in combat ops a lot and makes a hard boss fight. But it might be that his age has slowed him down and he merely *was* that level but has declined below it. Who can say, really?

And Kavar, well, we really don't know much about him but his rep, the Mandalorians though he, not Revan, would lead the war against them! So he could be pretty badass. Then again, it could be more like Even Piell, who's below the big clump while still being a reasonably strong fighter, and more famous for his leadership than personal ability. As we didn't really see him fight, it's quite hard to say.

So, personally? I'd put them notably weaker than Fisto and Depa, who're high-council clump, but some of that is guesswork.



On the flip side, Atris, who we have more combat info on, I would have no problem putting in the high-council end of the clump.


Like I've said, not all council members are in such clumps, but many council warriors tend to fit in with it.

Originally posted by Q99
It wouldn't surprise me if Vrook was, like, Tiin/Kolar level. What I call 'mid council,' the bottom half of the clump, maybe. lol

Originally posted by ILS
lol


Do you actually have anything to say, or....?


You seem to have a lot of opinion on the precise level of power of someone we have not actually seen fight much at all. On what do you draw your conclusion? Like I said, 'it would not surprise me,' but I have to use guesswork.

So, considering your level of certainty, what do you have to actually back up what you have to say?

Originally posted by Q99
Then again, it could be more like Even Piell, who's below the big clump while still being a reasonably strong fighter, and more famous for his leadership than personal ability. As we didn't really see him fight, it's quite hard to say. In the book Tarkin Tarkin basically says Piell was a shitty tactician and his strategy lead to them being captured by the Separatists and brought to Lola Sayu. But Tarkin did say that Piell was a pretty good fighter. Maybe I'll look for the exact quote.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
In the book Tarkin Tarkin basically says Piell was a shitty tactician and his strategy lead to them being captured by the Separatists and brought to Lola Sayu. But Tarkin did say that Piell was a pretty good fighter. Maybe I'll look for the exact quote.


Ah. Still, "Piell level strength but a good general" would make someone an obvious choice for council. More wisdom and knowledge in Piell's case, I guess.


There was a magazine that compared Shaak to Even. It gave her a 9 and 8 in force power and strength, and him a 7 and 6 respectively. So, while he's skilled in every lightsaber style and seems solid all-around, the higher members of the council obviously leave him in the dust.

Originally posted by Q99
Ah. Still, "Piell level strength but a good general" would make someone an obvious choice for council. More wisdom and knowledge in Piell's case, I guess.


There was a magazine that compared Shaak to Even. It gave her a 9 and 8 in force power and strength, and him a 7 and 6 respectively. So, while he's skilled in every lightsaber style and seems solid all-around, the higher members of the council obviously leave him in the dust. Yeah, pretty much. Here's the quote on Piell:

"Despite their refusal to come to Eriadu's aid against pirates, Tarkin had respected Jedi as peacekeepers, but as generals they had proven failures. The Jedi Master with whom he had served most closely during the Clone Wars was Even Piell, to whom Tarkin's cruiser had been assigned. Brusque and bellicose, the Lannik excelled in lightsaber combat, seeming to have integrated every possible fighting style, but he, too, had his flaws as a strategist. If Piell had deferred to Tarkin during their mission to investigate a hyperlane shortcut into Separatist-held space, they might have avoided capture and imprisonment, and perhaps the Lannik would have survived at least until the end of the war."

Originally posted by Q99
Do you actually have anything to say, or....?


You seem to have a lot of opinion on the precise level of power of someone we have not actually seen fight much at all. On what do you draw your conclusion? Like I said, 'it would not surprise me,' but I have to use guesswork.

So, considering your level of certainty, what do you have to actually back up what you have to say? Vrook doesn't have enough dueling renown to defeat Vos - Kolar curbstomped Vos. It's your utter lack of knowledge on, or complete underestimation of, Vos, that prevents you from recognizing that Kolar is one of the best duelists of the era.

What are Quinlan's best dueling feats that happened before his duel with Agen, ILS?

Considering what Mara almost did to Caedus (full strength Caedus, mind you, none of this wounded nonsense Jaina benefited from...), only those who are truly OP can overcome her Batman style of fighting. Kit's just not anywhere near that level.

Granted, she doesn't do as well in straight fights, but trying to use her in a straight fight discredits her personality and tactics. Straight fights just aren't what she does for a living.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
What are Quinlan's best dueling feats that happened before his duel with Agen, ILS? Six years prior to his fight with Kolar, he fought and nearly defeated the two Morgukai Tsyr and Bok.

http://imgur.com/a/q9Rs4

Important things to note about this? Vos was injured from being slashed by multiple shuriken before this fight, and his main form, ataru, is ill-suited to fighting multiple opponents, meaning only true masters of the form can effectively use it against multiple opponents.

Not only was Vos dealing with adverse conditions, but the Morgukai are elite warriors. They're renowned for being able to repeatedly kill Jedi and Sith in melee combat.

-Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
---
The ones in particular that Vos defeated were also highly capable warriors - together they were able to rapidly defeat Tholme (someone who has held his own against Sora Bulq and curbstomped six+ Force sensitive Anzati while holding back), and Bok has frequently provided an issue for Aayla Secura. Together they were too much for Secura to handle. Aayla having her feat of defeating Aurra Sing (someone who has briefly challenged the Jinn/Kenobi duo among other feats, and has been labeled as "one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy", makes her a pretty formidable duelist. The Morgukai together were too much for her. Vos, under the aforementioned adverse circumstances, took on both at the same time, killed one and lost via bolt to the shoulder from the other. That's a great feat in of itself, but the fact that it also places Vos noticeably ahead of Aayla, an accomplished duelist, also helps matters.

Fast forward six years later, and Kolar wipes Vos out in a matter of two moves. Like I said, Vos alone has Kavar outskilled, never mind the guy who wrecked Vos.

That's quite impressive.

Originally posted by ILS
Vrook doesn't have enough dueling renown to

Wait. Stop there.

He has a lack of information. That means his precise position is unknown, it doesn't mean it's automatically weak.

And what little information we have- lead the battle against the Jedi Covenant, and supposed to be able to put up some fight against the Exiles- doesn't paint him as weak.


Someone has to earn the title of 'feeb' just as much as one has to earn the title of 'strong,' and Vrook has a reasonable amount of renown.

Heck, remember what I actually said- "Maybe he was a Kolar level guy who got old." Which is just a maybe, and does also say he's not as strong as Kolar anymore. I didn't say he's as strong as Kolar to begin with, so you don't need to freak out.






Oh hey, like I've said before, I own and read almost every single comic with Vos I got into Legacy because it was by the writer of the Quinlan Vos stuff, seriously.

He is, also, presented as an underdog in many fights. He is quite a solid warrior, but beating him doesn't make one top tier... especially when he received a lot of training after that defeat, so basically what I'm saying is, "He gets stronger, and Vos later on is even more impressive!".

Then there's the matter that Vos proceeded to escape from Kolar, it wasn't a successful capture, and Vos was only trying to avoid getting captured so he was the one who completed his objectives there...



Additionally, we have additional info on Kolar! Such as, well, Fisto was able to react to Sidious and Kolar was not. So that also tells us solidly which is the better of those two.


And somehow you've looped around 'How strong is Vrook?' to trying to diss me on Vos, who I likely know at *least* as well as you!

...And absolutely none of that has to do with Mara or Kit.

Oh boy.

Q99
How does he have a lack of information, exactly? Is there anything actually indicating that he could potentially be on Kolar's level? Also lol @ misinterpreting what I said as me calling Kavar "weak" - weren't you not too long ago calling my reading comprehension into question?
Again, didn't say he was weak. Nice reading comprehension brah
I didn't say he earned the title of feeb, I'm just baffled that you think there's anything to indicate Kavar could be near Kolar, whether that be a matter of cold-hard evidence, or potential information.

I'm not freaking out, just loling.
That doesn't mean that you're capable of actually interpreting it properly.
Indeed.
Let's not talk about arbitrary tiering for a moment - explain to me why you believe Kavar to be so superior to Vos that he could potentially be as good as Kolar.
Proof he received "a lot of training" - he sparred with Dooku occasionally and only once did Dooku state that Vos improved, and literally all he said was "better" - how that has led you to believe that Vos improved to such an extent that Kolar wouldn't rapidly defeat them if they fought again, is totally lost to me.

Also, one of Vos's best dueling feats takes place six years prior to his fight with Kolar, which I expounded on above.
Vos was only trying to get captured? LMFAO. What do you call this, then?
http://i.imgur.com/SRRxHNv.png
Also lol @ Vos successfully escaping by his own merit. He only escaped because he had a cantina full of gunmen to distract Kolar while he ran off. I'm not sure if you have read these comics, to be honest.
1. Surprise played a factor in Sidious stomping Kolar and Tiin.

2. Fisto is renowned for his impressive speed and has many impressive speed feats, so him holding Sidious off for a few more strikes than Kolar doesn't indicate that he's "solidly" above him in terms of skill, only that he has better reaction time - and he would have had more time to react as well, considering Kolar was the first target, whereas Fisto was the third and was being aided by Mace Windu in parrying Sidious.
LMFAO.

Mara 11/10.

She is a trained assassin. Her style packs up multitude of dirty tricks that a regular Jedi like Fisto is simply unprepared for. He won't last more than a few seconds.

Originally posted by Q99
Council isn't *just* strength, but when one is elected to the council for strength, that's generally a good sign of how strong they are. Fisto, Tiin, Kolar, Ki-Adi, Shaak Ti? They all got their slots based on being rather badass.


The fact of the matter is, most of the order's strongest warriors are on the council, and tend to clump around a few strength ranges. Right, but that's an example of correlation rather than causation. Shaak-Ti and the others you mentioned were all renowned for their wisdom as much as their combat prowess, whereas Anakin for example rivaled or was outright superior to most of them in dueling ability but was never truly welcome on the council. Point is, you can be weak as a new-born baby and still make it on the council if you're wise enough. On the other hand, the most badass duelist who ever lived will never go further than Master/Sword-master if they're a blood-knight or dumb as hell. So simply being on the council isn't really a metric of skill.

Mind you, I don't get the impression that you're actually making that claim.

- - - - -

On an unrelated note, Mara's one of my favorite characters in the entire mythos, second only to Obi-Wan perhaps, but ****in' A there is no way in hell she is casually stomping Kit like some of you are stating. I think she'd win, but she's going to work for it.

She's going to break a sweat for sure, but it's also not going to be the hardest battle of her life.

Shut up, nerd.

Well, of course it's not going to be the hardest battle of her life. That was Darth Caedus. It was also the last battle of her life. Damn you Karen. Damn you.

Seeing as Caedus stand second only to Luke and Sidious themselves, and alongside Plageuis and Yoda, it says a lot that it took him to kill her off.

Mara Jade Skywalker comfortably.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Right, but that's an example of correlation rather than causation. Shaak-Ti and the others you mentioned were all renowned for their wisdom as much as their combat prowess, whereas Anakin for example rivaled or was outright superior to most of them in dueling ability but was never truly welcome on the council. Point is, you can be weak as a new-born baby and still make it on the council if you're wise enough. On the other hand, the most badass duelist who ever lived will never go further than Master/Sword-master if they're a blood-knight or dumb as hell. So simply being on the council isn't really a metric of skill.

Mind you, I don't get the impression that you're actually making that claim.

Right, there's other requirements. One can be that strong without being council and so on.

But the majority of Jedi who are that level are Council, and a lot of Council people are not far from those levels.

Mara jade actually gave caedus a lot of trouble in her duel. No one in the prequel trilogy except for the very high tiers such as mace, yoda, sidious and anakin would be able to give caedus that much trouble.