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Who wins?

Team

Vitiate imo.

Team definitely, if the Revan + Surik team is good enough to give the Emperor trouble he would certainly be at a loss to take down two far superior opponents.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Team definitely, if the Revan + Surik team is good enough to give the Emperor trouble he would certainly be at a loss to take down two far superior opponents.

1) That was before prime Vitiate
2) Revan+Surik+Scourge team isnt as weak as you make them sound.
3) We don't know if the team would actually give Vitiate trouble.

We have no idea how much more powerful Vitiate may or may not have gotten. Beyond that Vitiate was in his original body at the time which may imply a lot more power than any of his Voice-based showings have.

Revan is the only one of those three that even compares to Exar Kun, on the other hand both Kun and Ulic are master duelists with extreme Force Power. Kun himself is arguably top five Sith of all time.

The team did give Vitiate trouble, he could have been killed there and then. Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma are certainly the stronger team and would certainly be far more challenging. In my opinion too challenging.

Vitiate could try to dominate them.

Ulic Qel-Droma has undergone extensive mental torture and only been corrupted due to Sith poison. Not to mention had the strength of mind to maintain a connection to the Force strong enough to allow him to achieve Oneness with the Force after having been Severed from it.

Exar Kun had the willpower to last thousands of years as a Sith spirit and fight off the void, a feat that Sidious found mentally exhausting. His willpower also managed to over-come post-DE Luke's own.


I am very speculative of his ability to pull this off whilst holding off two much faster and very powerful Sith Lords themselves.

This sort of reminds me of Revan and Malak vs. Vitiate. Sort of. Exar Kun is way more powerful than Malak. I think Vitiate would dominate their minds, unless they're actually prepared for it.

Originally posted by Sinious
1) That was before prime Vitiate
2) Revan+Surik+Scourge team isnt as weak as you make them sound.
3) We don't know if the team would actually give Vitiate trouble.

1) Do you have a source for this? Its heavily implied that his power is not limitless and he will eventually die when it runs out. And its not like he did another ritual in the 300 years between SWTOR and Revan.

2) Exar Kun is at least on Revan's level force wise and his superior with a saber and Ulic is his equal with a blade. Ulic is Nyriss level, they are a superior team.

3) Yes we do. Scourge sees a vision of the future with Vitiate dead at Revan's feet.

Wasn't that HoT?

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Wasn't that HoT?

Not just HoT, Scourge did see futures where Revan could have won

Bear in mind? Even if it wasn't the most frequent future? The fact the outcome was a possibility at all says a good deal.

Emperor Vitiate most likely.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Wasn't that HoT?

Nope as Chaos pointed out Revan and co. vs. Vitiate was a maybe HoT was a definate victory. That's why Scourge chose to betray them, he didn't want to gamble his life on a maybe.

Duo takes this.

Originally posted by AncientPower
We have no idea how much more powerful Vitiate may or may not have gotten. Beyond that Vitiate was in his original body at the time which may imply a lot more power than any of his Voice-based showings have.

Revan is the only one of those three that even compares to Exar Kun, on the other hand both Kun and Ulic are master duelists with extreme Force Power. Kun himself is arguably top five Sith of all time.

The team did give Vitiate trouble, he could have been killed there and then. Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma are certainly the stronger team and would certainly be far more challenging. In my opinion too challenging.

We don't know for sure which ones were the Voice in SWTOR.

I rank Kun higher than most people but I think that he isn't in top 5. Revan vs Kun is a close fight and Meetra+Scourge vs Ulic is not a bad fight either and the team didnt give him trouble. Vitiate underestimated Revan and ended up getting hurt which really isnt surprising since Revan himself admits that last time he faced the Emperor, it wasn't even a fight so Vitiate probably assumed that Revan wouldn't be a real challenge to him. Also, Scourge and Meetra weren't even helping Revan there.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1) Do you have a source for this? Its heavily implied that his power is not limitless and he will eventually die when it runs out. And its not like he did another ritual in the 300 years between SWTOR and Revan.

2) Exar Kun is at least on Revan's level force wise and his superior with a saber and Ulic is his equal with a blade. Ulic is Nyriss level, they are a superior team.

3) Yes we do. Scourge sees a vision of the future with Vitiate dead at Revan's feet.

1) Well its known that he was feeding on his servants constantly and he was getting stronger within each century but this is what I have atm: "Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail." - SWTORE

2) I agree that they are superior but not by a margin. First of all, team Revan had an advantage. Because of Revan, they were able to resist Vitiate's mind attacks. They also have the advantage in numbers. Kun and his former apprentice won't be taken out as easily as Revan and Malak but I still don't think they can take the Emperor down.

3) Scourge sees incalculable amount of possibilities of the future. It really doesn't mean that they were powerful enough to challenge him. IIRC, the novel kinda states that none of them knew if they actually had a chance or not. It's an unknown matter and using it as an argument doesn't make sense to me tbh.

Originally posted by Sinious
the team didnt give him trouble.

Yes they did. Revan alone knocked Vitiate on his ass and the Exile could have killed Vitiate had she wanted to instead of saving Revan. Then we have Scourge's visions...

Originally posted by ares834
Yes they did. Revan alone knocked Vitiate on his ass and the Exile could have killed Vitiate had she wanted to instead of saving Revan. Then we have Scourge's visions...

Yeah, I already said Revan gave him trouble.

But again, the circumstances are quite clear there. If you put the trio in front of Vitiate in an arena and make them go all out on each other, I doubt that they will ever get the chance to get near to him.

Too bad the actual fight says otherwise...

Originally posted by ares834
Too bad the actual fight says otherwise...

Oh so the plot and motives doen't matter to you?

Good point. Who knows how the duel would have turned out if Revan fought smart and used his blade to deflect Vitiate's lightning again.

Like that time when the entire jedi strike team used their sabers against Vitiate's FLS?

True. Shame none of them are on Revan's level. Otherwise Vitiate may very well have been dead there.

Vitiate's FLS in SWTOR wasn't charged or concentrated like it was in the novel. Perhaps Revan could hold his ground like Braga and HoT did against an FLS like that but against a concentrated attack? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Sinious

1) Well its known that he was feeding on his servants constantly and he was getting stronger within each century but this is what I have atm: "Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail." - SWTORE

Eh, good enough. Still not really evidence of any considerable increase in martial prowess.



I'd agree, but even a slight degree of superiority is enough considering this group was already enough to match Vitiate.



"But there was no way to choose the most likely outcome"

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, good enough. Still not really evidence of any considerable increase in martial prowess.

Is power not an applicable feature in combat?


match Vitiate? So Scourge saw millions of scenarios and in some of them Vitiate was defeated and that proves they were powerful enough to match him?

Vitiate underestimated Revan and put himself in a vulnerable position. Once he used his most powerful attack, Revan was no match for him. And Revan was far above the other two as they were in no position to defend themselves against Nyriss. So if Revan was instantly overwhelmed by Vitiate's lightning, I don't see how the rest of the group could make a difference.


More importantly, Vitiate's mentality changed after that confrontation. He created Voices and was more cautious in general. You can also see this change in SWTOR as he unleashes his potent attacks right away against the strike team instead of fooling around. So in this case, he won't do the same mistake again against Kun and Ulic.

Kun and Qel.

Better suited for Vitiate's best combat attack than the jedi strike team.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1) Do you have a source for this? Its heavily implied that his power is not limitless and he will eventually die when it runs out. And its not like he did another ritual in the 300 years between SWTOR and Revan.

2) Exar Kun is at least on Revan's level force wise and his superior with a saber and Ulic is his equal with a blade. Ulic is Nyriss level, they are a superior team.

3) Yes we do. Scourge sees a vision of the future with Vitiate dead at Revan's feet.

It wasn't Revan, it was HoT

Team wins.

Team stomps.

Kun alone is a huge powerhouse.

IIRC Vitiate fears Kun alone in power, but he could probably still win a Force-only duel, or lose with tremendous effort on the duo's part.

If the duo get up close then Vitiate gets assassinated like Julius Caesar with 40+ stabs and then gets his throne thrown on top of his corpse.

Originally posted by SunRazer
IIRC Vitiate fears Kun alone in power, but he could probably still win a Force-only duel, or lose with tremendous effort on the duo's part.


Why would Vitiate have trouble beating Kun in a force fight? Revan has better showings than Kun in the force and Vitiate makes Revan his b*tch every time they encounter.

Once again no he doesn't.

Yes he does but I misread SunRazer's post anyway.

Vitiate. SOR Revan duked out against a strike team that was even more powerful than the one sent after Vitiate in the novel, and it's universally acknowledged in the same expansion that Vitiate is infinitely stronger than Revan, or anyone. Whether or not it's directly stated, Vitiate is obviously being displayed as far more powerful in recent SWTOR updates than during the novel.

Kun has frozen over 10,000 individuals simultaneously without effort and stomped Vodo whilst doing so. Tanked bombing runs with no visual sign of effort and shrugged off Odan-Urr's Sever Force attack. He is stated to have more knowledge of the Force than Darth Vader and in his time as Dark Lord of the Sith been the most powerful in the galaxy and was darker than any other Sith of the time. He has been stated to be far more powerful than Thon, Jeth, Odan and all other Jedi of the day.

Not seeing where Revan is more powerful in the Force.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1) Do you have a source for this? Its heavily implied that his power is not limitless and he will eventually die when it runs out. And its not like he did another ritual in the 300 years between SWTOR and Revan.
Emperor Vitiate have no limitation in the matter of power progression. Using sorcery and powers, Emperor Vitiate continuously grew in power since his birth to the point when he was ready to initiate a ritual of galactic proportions. Further power progression had been interrupted when Emperor Vitiate's ultimate ritual was stopped by his enemies; Emperor was actually weakened by this development and had been recovering since, and the story is in progress.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
2) Exar Kun is at least on Revan's level force wise and his superior with a saber and Ulic is his equal with a blade. Ulic is Nyriss level, they are a superior team.
It is impossible to establish that Ulic is on Nyriss level, based on available information.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
3) Yes we do. Scourge sees a vision of the future with Vitiate dead at Revan's feet.
This was 'among' the possibilities but not a definite outcome.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Team stomps.
Utter bullshit.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kun alone is a huge powerhouse.
So is Revan.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1) Do you have a source for this? Its heavily implied that his power is not limitless and he will eventually die when it runs out. And its not like he did another ritual in the 300 years between SWTOR and Revan.

Swtore. It says his power was "ever increasing" as he fed on his Servants (and Revan).

He also fed on Revan.

Exar Kun alone would be a good fight.

Actually, in Force, the duo could win if they have all their trinkets.

Originally posted by Sinious
Why would Vitiate have trouble beating Kun in a force fight? Revan has better showings than Kun in the force and Vitiate makes Revan his b*tch every time they encounter.

I said he has trouble with the duo, not Kun, and Revan doesn't have better offensive Force showings than Kun, who's easily destroyed Freedon Nadd's spirit before reaching his own prime.

Emperor Vitiate have sufficient raw power and command of Sith Sorcery to single-handedly challenge and defeat even a Strike Team of powerful opponents, he have some solid showings in this respect.

Exar and Ulic are absolutely vulnerable to telepathic subjugation from Emperor Vitiate, to begin with. Should this pressure mount on them, it is likely to disorient the Strike Team and Exar and Ulic will become vulnerable to further exploitation. At this point, Emperor Vitiate have the option to use his Force Drain powers to siphon energy of both to fuel his own, weakening the Strike Team even further and/or just strike the opponents with deadly force to eliminate both.

When has Vitiate used Drain in combat?

Not that it matters, considering they're immune to Drain anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
When has Vitiate used Drain in combat?
Force Drain can be used in combat situations, an example is not necessary.

However, Emperor Vitiate drained Revan, irrespective of Revan being an unwilling subject to serve him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not that it matters, considering they're immune to Drain anyway.
Nobody is 'absolutely immune' to Force Drain powers unless having a special condition that nullifies their effectiveness. Ulic knows a technique that may enable him to resist Force Drain powers for a while but Exar is not stated to have such knowledge.

1. Hardly. Bane knew the technique but claimed it was virtually impossible to use combatively.

Vitiate using Drain Knowledge on Revan isn't compatible with a fight, where he never Drained Revan.

2. The Exile is immune.

That being said, Ulic and Exar know techniques to block life-siphoning/harvesting powers.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Hardly. Bane knew the technique but claimed it was virtually impossible to use combatively.
Force Drain represents a spectrum of offensive and defensive powers. Also, Bane's limitations are not valid for Emperor Vitiate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate using Drain Knowledge on Revan isn't compatible with a fight, where he never Drained Revan.
Emperor Vitiate did not just drain knowledge from Revan but drained his energy as well at times to make an effort to break him. Revan circumvented such attacks by siphoning energy from the ghost of Meetra Surik to replenish his own.

Emperor Vitiate is stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. He is likely to have a wide range of offensive options to consider in combat situations. Just because we don't see him performing action (A) in a duel, doesn't means he cannot.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. The Exile is immune.
Based on?

Originally posted by SunRazer
That being said, Ulic and Exar know techniques to block life-siphoning/harvesting powers.
They don't have a permanent solution.

1. I'm aware of what Force Drain is, you don't need to quote wiki for me.

The limitations are certainly applicable when Vitiate has never displayed it mid-duel.

2. By that logic, "just because Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma haven't displayed Force Drain immunity in a fight, doesn't mean they can't".

3. Based on Nihilus failing to Drain her, and supplementary sources that confirm this.

4. Yes, they do. They don't need one when Vitiate hasn't demonstrated Drain in combat - his MO is TK and Lightning.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I'm aware of what Force Drain is, you don't need to quote wiki for me.

The limitations are certainly applicable when Vitiate has never displayed it mid-duel.
I am not quoting Wiki.

By that logic, Emperor Vitiate haven't choked someone to death during a confrontation as well. So should we assume that Emperor Vitiate cannot choke anybody?

Emperor Vitiate is much more powerful and masterful in the ways of the dark side then Darth Bane.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. By that logic, "just because Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma haven't displayed Force Drain immunity in a fight, doesn't mean they can't".
I am not asserting that Ulic cannot resist Force Drain powers for a while but nothing implies that his defensive technique is foolproof.

As for Exar, I have clearly stated earlier that he is not implied to have the ability to resist Force Drain powers. Provide evidence to the contrary if you think that I am wrong.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Based on Nihilus failing to Drain her, and supplementary sources that confirm this.
Darth Nihilus failed to drain whom? The Exile? How is this relevant to Ulic and Exar?

Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Yes, they do. They don't need one when Vitiate hasn't demonstrated Drain in combat - his MO is TK and Lightning.


Emperor haven't Force-choked an opponent either, doesn't means he cannot.

Emperor Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to drain an unwilling opponent (i.e. Revan) and this is sufficient indicator of his capability to drain his opponents in combat situations, should he try.

Also, Emperor Vitiate knows much more then TK and Lightning.

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Here is an example of a mysterious power of Emperor Vitiate:

He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

1. Yes, you are. "Spectrum of offensive and defensive powers" is basically what the wiki says. Whatever.

2. That's a subset of TK. Drain is it's own power.

3. What do you mean not foolproof? When has it ever failed?

Exar logically knows the same technique since he was the one who rediscovered the Dark Reaper and brought it back into use.

4. You said nobody is immune to Drain. The Exile is.

5. I don't doubt that Vitiate knows Drain, but he doesn't use it in fights. I'm asking you to prove that he does. Choke is an application of TK, so yes, he can use it. That, and HoT and Revan were powerful enough to not be Choked.

Excuse me, but I've played SWTOR (Jedi Knight), read TOR: Revan, and read The Old Republic Encyclopedia. I've also already read that thread. I'm aware of what Vitiate can do.

I said his MO (Modus Operandi) is TK and Lightning, which means those are his go-to powers and the ones he primarily uses. Palpatine knows every power in existence, but his MO is Lightning and TK as well.

Your examples do not confirm combat-applicable mastery of Drain, either. Drain isn't among the most uncharted depths of the dark side, it was a commonly mastered technique among Ancient Sith, as well as Revan and the Sith Triumvirate.

Vitiate displaying an unspecific ritual doesn't have anything to do with Drain either.

1. Drain and TK are separate powers.

2. It succeeded when Ulic and Exar could operate the Dark Reaper without dying, LMAO.

3. Resurrecting the Dark Reaper doesn't require you to use Drain. It requires you to survive the Drain, though.

4. Even if it was "a while", it's sufficient, especially since Vitiate doesn't have a habit of using Drain in fights anyway.

5. You haven't provided any credibility to your claim whatsoever. Knowing a power and consistently using it in a fight is completely different.

6. Sever Force =/= Drain.

7. Based on the fact that they weren't dominated by Choke, LOL.

8. He did as of DE, I meant.

9. Hardly a "poor deduction", except by your standards. Kun is immensely powerful and even Vitiate fears him, or would be right to, anyway.

10. I think Ulic and Exar's lightsabers would function just fine in that circumstance.

Also, Ulic's repelled capital-ship damaging lasers with Barrier, and that was before he gained considerable power upon becoming a Sith Lord. Kun's Force Blasts would likely hurt Vitiate, too.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Drain and TK are separate powers.
You really think that you need to tell me this?

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. It succeeded when Ulic and Exar could operate the Dark Reaper without dying, LMAO.
Hmm, provide details of this development.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Resurrecting the Dark Reaper doesn't require you to use Drain. It requires you to survive the Drain, though.
Resurrecting or operating? Dark Reaper is a superweapon, not a being.

Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Even if it was "a while", it's sufficient, especially since Vitiate doesn't have a habit of using Drain in fights anyway.
Emperor Vitiate have other options to disorient the Strike Team; his telepathic powers and sorcery.

Originally posted by SunRazer
5. You haven't provided any credibility to your claim whatsoever. Knowing a power and consistently using it in a fight is completely different.
Emperor not just have knowledge of Force Drain, he have performed it against both willing and unwilling individuals. Your point is moot.

What is the difference between a combat situation and performing an action against an opposing individual? Nothing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
6. Sever Force =/= Drain.
This is argument for the sake of argument. I never implied this.

I am just pointing out that Emperor Vitiate have a wide range of offensive options to consider against the Strike Team.

Originally posted by SunRazer
7. Based on the fact that they weren't dominated by Choke, LOL.
Genius, Emperor Vitiate did not attempt to choke them at any point. Your point is moot.

Originally posted by SunRazer
8. He did as of DE, I meant.
No, he didn't.

Originally posted by SunRazer
9. Hardly a "poor deduction", except by your standards. Kun is immensely powerful and even Vitiate fears him, or would be right to, anyway.


Emperor Vitiate is not afraid of any Jedi and Sith, as far as I am aware.

In-fact:

No Sith has generated as much curiosity, frustration, and fear among the Jedi as the Empire's dread ruler.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

&

For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Emperor Vitiate intimidated even the mighty Revan.

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

Despite this, he still felt a chill in his gut when he saw again the enormous durasteel doors of the throne room. They were shut, of course, but he knew all too well what lay beyond.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Originally posted by SunRazer
10. I think Ulic and Exar's lightsabers would function just fine in that circumstance.
Lightsaber-augmented defenses have limits too.

Revan figured out that his lightsaber-augmented defenses won't be enough to stop a storm of lightning from Emperor Vitiate.

Even some of the Emperor Vitiate's inferiors were able to overwhelm lightsaber augmented-defenses of powerful Force-users with powerful bursts of Force lightning such as Darth Malgus and Exal Kressh. I believe that Darth Thanaton and Darth Nox could also pull off this feat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, Ulic's repelled capital-ship damaging lasers with Barrier, and that was before he gained considerable power upon becoming a Sith Lord. Kun's Force Blasts would likely hurt Vitiate, too.
Exar did that, not Ulic.

And Sith Sorcery is much more dangerous then firearms and lasers.

As for the Force Blasts, Emperor Vitiate can unleash them with bare hands as apparent from his showings against some Jedi (including HoT).

As for the defenses, Emperor Vitiate have successfully tanked every kind of power unleashed on him by his opponents. His defenses are bolstered by his condition.

Emperor Vitiate lost in a battle only when he was vulnerable.

Yes, I do. You denied it.



What development? And this is entirely off-panel and just mentioned by sources, we haven't seen them do it in person.



Both, because it was inactive and resurrected in that it was reactivated.



He has other powers to use against Kun and Qel-Droma, too.

Still haven't seen him using Drain in a fight.



The difference is that he doesn't use it in a fight, meaning that it doesn't matter here. He might use it for say, one round out of ten, but if his track record against multiple types of opponents indicates that he doesn't use it, then suggesting that it's likely he'll use it against Kun and Qel-Droma is reaching.

Besides, if he only uses it once out of ten rounds, then the defense technique would certainly work.



Yes, you did imply it. You said it lends further credibility to the notion of him using Drain in a fight, which it doesn't.



You mean because he couldn't.



Vitiate causing fear doesn't mean he doesn't fear things - he fears death. As for fearing the ancient Sith:



And Kun's canonically more powerful than any of the ancient Sith. Even if you take SOR into account, he's at least on par with Hord/Ragnos/Sadow, whom Vitiate considered threats to his power. And Kun's still likely more powerful than any of them.



Right, except the Strike Team, most of whom don't compare to Kun and Ulic, lasted quite a while against Vitiate's Storm that way.

Not to mention that if Vitiate tried building up Storm, Kun can unleash Blasts on him.



Umm.... no.



I was responding to the point about Lightning, so this is a red herring.



Good for him. Displaying a power isn't the same as displaying a defense against it - after all, Traya had no issues displaying Drain, but when Nihilus and Sion turned it on her she got her shit shoveled up her ass.



Too bad that Exar Kun's Force Blasts were never unleashed on Vitiate before, then.



Ulic Qel-Droma hasn't lost a battle either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, I do. You denied it.
When have I claimed that TK and Force Drain are same powers?

This is my point:

Telekinesis represents a spectrum of powers/actions. Similarly, Force Drain represents a spectrum of powers/actions.

Both represent a different set of abilities but both are not a 'single' power each.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What development? And this is entirely off-panel and just mentioned by sources, we haven't seen them do it in person.
You mentioned that both Exar and Ulic had experiences with the Dark Reaper, I want to know the details of these developments for knowledge basis.

And here is the evidence of Ulic's limited capability at resisting Force Drain powers:

"I can teach to harness the power of the Force around you, making you immune to the Dark Reaper's effect, for a short time. But this knowledge comes with a risk."



Originally posted by SunRazer
Both, because it was inactive and resurrected in that it was reactivated.
I don't think that "resurrect" is the correct choice of word for Dark Reaper. Still, your elaboration is noted.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He has other powers to use against Kun and Qel-Droma, too.

Still haven't seen him using Drain in a fight.
Indeed.

Performing an action in a fight is same as performing it in another situation. The difference is that in a fight, the target is 'expected' to resist. In other situations, the opponent may be caught by surprise.

ANALOGY:

If I am strong enough to throw a stone, I can do it in both normal and confrontational scenarios. My 'ability' to throw a stone is much more relevant then the scenario itself.

---

Emperor Vitiate successfully subjected Revan (an enemy) to his Force Drain powers from lightyears distance but Revan attempted to circumvent the effects of such powers by utilizing the Force Ghost of Meetra Surik as his "energy reserve." While this is not a face-to-face confrontation, it is still a confrontation. The Emperor's ability to use his Force Drain powers against an 'opponent' is amply demonstrated in this case.

Clear?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The difference is that he doesn't use it in a fight, meaning that it doesn't matter here. He might use it for say, one round out of ten, but if his track record against multiple types of opponents indicates that he doesn't use it, then suggesting that it's likely he'll use it against Kun and Qel-Droma is reaching.
See above.

As for likelihood of using a power; we, as neutral observers, are not in the position to determine Emperor's decision-making ourselves. We, as neutral observers, need to keep all possibilities in mind for a neutral versus scenario.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Besides, if he only uses it once out of ten rounds, then the defense technique would certainly work.
See above

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, you did imply it. You said it lends further credibility to the notion of him using Drain in a fight, which it doesn't.
It does. See above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You mean because he couldn't.
No, he just did not attempt the implied action; choke Revan and HoT.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate causing fear doesn't mean he doesn't fear things - he fears death. As for fearing the ancient Sith:
Thanks for sharing that quote. However, it does not implies that Emperor Vitiate actually feared the ancients. He did not.

Considering someone a threat and fearing someone are not necessarily mutually-exclusive reactions.

ANALOGY

Suppose that you and me are two combatants. I may consider you a threat or competitor but I may not be hesitant to challenge you in a fight if I am confident in my abilities.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Kun's canonically more powerful than any of the ancient Sith. Even if you take SOR into account, he's at least on par with Hord/Ragnos/Sadow, whom Vitiate considered threats to his power. And Kun's still likely more powerful than any of them.
What do you think about Tulak Hord?

Revan > Sadow and Ragnos, IMO.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, except the Strike Team, most of whom don't compare to Kun and Ulic, lasted quite a while against Vitiate's Storm that way.
The individuals of the referred Jedi Strike Team differed from each other in talents, capabilities, power, and accomplishments, but all met the same fate; defeat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not to mention that if Vitiate tried building up Storm, Kun can unleash Blasts on him.
Emperor Vitiate can disorient the Strike Team beforehand with his telepathic powers.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Umm.... no.
Ok? Evidence?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I was responding to the point about Lightning, so this is a red herring.
Are you implying that Ulic can handle Emperor Vitiates' FLS? He cannot.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Good for him. Displaying a power isn't the same as displaying a defense against it - after all, Traya had no issues displaying Drain, but when Nihilus and Sion turned it on her she got her shit shoveled up her ass.


Too bad that Exar Kun's Force Blasts were never unleashed on Vitiate before, then.
Emperor Vitiate's immortality itself represents a layer of defense against external threats.

On average, Force-users have to rely on their own talents to defend themselves from external threats. In comparison, Emperor Vitiate's immortality bolstered his defensive abilities.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ulic Qel-Droma hasn't lost a battle either.
Ulic, is still, not as much tested in combat as Emperor Vitiate.

Even if it was for only a "short time", Vitiate's never shown any aptitude for force drain ergo its pointless that you're suggesting he can use it. Its not hard to follow, man.

Originally posted by carthage
Even if it was for only a "short time", Vitiate's never shown any aptitude for force drain ergo its pointless that you're suggesting he can use it. Its not hard to follow, man.
Really?

Example 1:

Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Example 2:

REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Example 3:

The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Don't have time to respond to the same thing over and over again, so my response will be shorter.



lol That's not what I accused you of. However, TK and Drain are completely different powers, hence your comparisons of Choke and Drain are irrelevant.



It's just backstory - that they revived and used it. To have used it, though, they would have to have been immune to its effect, since it harvests anything in its vicinity.



A limited time is more than sufficient, considering Vitiate never uses Drain in combat, and if he did, he would only use it once - should it fail, I highly doubt he would repeat that same power.



lol Your analogy doesn't work because Drain is a complicated power which is actually difficult to utilize, whereas hurling a rock is something that everybody and their grandmother could do.



lol We can infer how often he would use it based on his track record. In other words, he won't, or extremely rarely, in which case Ulic's technique would counter it.



Not necessarily, and there's numerous aspects to each character. For instance, Sadow's Force knowledge outstrips Revan's, as does his use of Sorcery and Alchemy, but Revan is more battle-tested and has techniques like Battle Precognition to afford him the edge in direct combat. That being said, Sadow and Ragnos's hype as swordsmen based on the SWTOR website and Kreia's claim (which Avellone has confirmed to be accurate) makes them roughly equal with him in sheer prowess with a blade - however, a lightsaber is more practical than a Sith warblade (which is more or less directly confirmed by the TOR Encyclopedia), and Revan is just more combat-tested. I doubt Revan's directly more powerful than Sadow or Ragnos, either, but his powers are generally more combat-applicable.

Tulak's a better swordsman than Revan, though, and just as combat-tested.



And as I said, they don't compare to Kun or Ulic. At that point in time, at least. And they still lasted a fairly long amount of time - imagine how long Kun and Ulic would last, not to mention that they wouldn't be as strained and would be potentially able to hurl Blasts and the like in retaliation.



He did that, like, once, in the Revan novel.

Not sure how well it'd work, though. Kun might be able to break out of the telepathic trauma via Scream like Bane did in DoE, but he could get disoriented.

As I said, there's options for both teams to win.



There's a respect thread for Qel-Droma on the Internet, you can find the feat there.



His Barrier would last against Vitiate's Force Lightning for some time, yes.


Sion was immortal, too, but he was still affected by basic powers.



LOL. Vitiate is a scholar, not a warrior. His power is immense, hence why he sees it through his three battles, but those are the only combative situations he's been in to my knowledge, whereas Ulic was tested in combat throughout his life. He is far more combat-tested than Vitiate is - Vitiate is just fortunate that he has a huge reservoir of Force power to fall back on.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really?

Example 1:

Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Example 2:

REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Example 3:

The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Example 1 involves him Draining from people who let him Drain them (ie. total subservience), and Example 2 involves him Draining from somebody who was too weak to resist (he could only resist mentally).

Example 3 details his usage of rituals, so again, not combat-relevant.

As I said, he knows Drain, so in a morals off encounter, he could use it, but morals on, there's nothing to suggest he would based on the fact that it's simply not how he approaches a fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD



Nobody is 'absolutely immune' to Force Drain powers unless having a special condition that nullifies their effectiveness. Ulic knows a technique that may enable him to resist Force Drain powers for a while but Exar is not stated to have such knowledge.


LMAO, so when we use Traya's drain it's bullshit to you that it's impossible to defend yet now that Vitiate is the one here no one is "absolutely immune."

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol That's not what I accused you of. However, TK and Drain are completely different powers, hence your comparisons of Choke and Drain are irrelevant.
You didn't understand my intended point then. I will give it a try again.

My argument is that just because Vitiate didn't choke an opponent in a documented confrontation, doesn't means that he cannot do so. Similarly, just because Vitiate haven't attacked an opponent with his Force Drain powers in a documented confrontation, doesn't means he cannot do so. No rocket science here.

A Force-user, who is arguably the greatest master of the dark side, cannot perform choke or drain his opponents in a confrontation? Makes no sense, IMO.

The word confrontation itself is meaningless, ability (strength) and talent (skill) to perform an action, are the real determinants of the ability to perform an action.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's just backstory - that they revived and used it. To have used it, though, they would have to have been immune to its effect, since it harvests anything in its vicinity.
But they were not immune:

"I can teach to harness the power of the Force around you, making you immune to the Dark Reaper's effect, for a short time. But this knowledge comes with a risk." (Ulic Qel-Droma to Anakin Skywalker)

It would be better if you pay proper attention to the information that I cite. This would spare us both time and energy in a debate to reach an understanding on the topic.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A limited time is more than sufficient, considering Vitiate never uses Drain in combat, and if he did, he would only use it once - should it fail, I highly doubt he would repeat that same power.
You shouldn't assert with absolute certainty that Vitiate never uses Force Drain powers in confrontations, because Vitiate have history of extensively using Force Drain powers to fuel his strength and satiate his hunger. You are doubting Vitiate's ability to use Force Drain powers in confrontations and this makes no sense.

As I pointed out to you several times in this debate, Vitiate subjected Revan to his Force Drain powers from lightyears distance, a feat which demonstrates that Vitiate have phenomenal command of Force Drain powers. Now you may boast that Revan was vulnerable in his imprisonment but do not forget that Surik's ghost supported him in this situation and Revan was able to draw strength from this ghost to endure Vitiate's torturous attempts. Do you really think that anybody can last 300 years in torturous conditions without external help? Nobody can.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol Your analogy doesn't work because Drain is a complicated power which is actually difficult to utilize, whereas hurling a rock is something that everybody and their grandmother could do.
Here is a hint: STRENGTH

Vitiate is stronger then Sith Lords who have actively used Force Drain powers in confrontations such as Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, and Lord Draahg.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol We can infer how often he would use it based on his track record. In other words, he won't, or extremely rarely, in which case Ulic's technique would counter it.
Vitiate have defeated different opponents using different abilities. Yes, Vitiate have commonly considered telepathic powers and Force Lightning as offensive options in confrontations but this doesn't means he cannot utilize other options in confrontations. Versus topics are not restrained by story elements.

As for Ulic's defenses, he might be able to reduce the effectiveness of Force Drain powers in a confrontation if subjected to it but he is still not strong enough to win in this confrontation. As I stated earlier, Vitiate have large number of options to consider in a confrontation, based on the revelation that he have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side and he is likely to have knowledge and command of techniques that Ulic and Exar may never have heard of.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not necessarily, and there's numerous aspects to each character. For instance, Sadow's Force knowledge outstrips Revan's, as does his use of Sorcery and Alchemy, but Revan is more battle-tested and has techniques like Battle Precognition to afford him the edge in direct combat. That being said, Sadow and Ragnos's hype as swordsmen based on the SWTOR website and Kreia's claim (which Avellone has confirmed to be accurate) makes them roughly equal with him in sheer prowess with a blade - however, a lightsaber is more practical than a Sith warblade (which is more or less directly confirmed by the TOR Encyclopedia), and Revan is just more combat-tested. I doubt Revan's directly more powerful than Sadow or Ragnos, either, but his powers are generally more combat-applicable.
I wouldn't underestimate Revan's knowledge and command of the Force. He have explored both the light and dark aspects of the Force in great depth and just the magnitude of his knowledge of dark aspects left Darth Bane in awe who spent weeks to digest such breath of knowledge but was reluctant to try many of the techniques and rituals that Revan had acquired knowledge of.

Revan's knowledge of the Force exceeded that of even Darth Traya who was highly learned in the ways of the Force and a Jedi Historian to boot.

Some revelations:

Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

&

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tulak's a better swordsman than Revan, though, and just as combat-tested.
Possible.

Tulak became famous for his legendary dueling abilities.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And as I said, they don't compare to Kun or Ulic. At that point in time, at least. And they still lasted a fairly long amount of time - imagine how long Kun and Ulic would last, not to mention that they wouldn't be as strained and would be potentially able to hurl Blasts and the like in retaliation.
Who are 'they'?

Ulic isn't a peer of Exar Kun either. Ulic certainly stalemated Exar once, but the latter became more powerful afterwards.

Vitiate doesn't needs Force Drain powers to strain Ulic and Exar Kun, Vitiate's telepathic powers are sufficient for this purpose. Honestly, Ulic is nearly useless in this confrontation. Exar Kun is the only individual who may put up a decent fight but will eventually loose as well.

Against Vitiate, numbers do not matter much. As an example, Vitiate could solo the trio of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He did that, like, once, in the Revan novel.

Not sure how well it'd work, though. Kun might be able to break out of the telepathic trauma via Scream like Bane did in DoE, but he could get disoriented.
Yes, you are making progress. Good.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As I said, there's options for both teams to win.
Vitiate is likely to defeat this duo in most situations.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's a respect thread for Qel-Droma on the Internet, you can find the feat there.
I know.

Originally posted by SunRazer
His Barrier would last against Vitiate's Force Lightning for some time, yes.
Nope.

The Jedi Strike Team attempted to defend themselves from Vitiate's FLS using lightsabers but the Jedi and their weapons failed. Also, Vitiate went easy on this Strike Team. No, I am not kidding; you would know if you have read Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sion was immortal, too, but he was still affected by basic powers.
Vitiate have relatively much superior command of the Force as well on top of immortality.

Originally posted by SunRazer
LOL. Vitiate is a scholar, not a warrior. His power is immense, hence why he sees it through his three battles, but those are the only combative situations he's been in to my knowledge, whereas Ulic was tested in combat throughout his life. He is far more combat-tested than Vitiate is - Vitiate is just fortunate that he has a huge reservoir of Force power to fall back on.
Vitiate 'used' to be a scholar. Also, scholar label doesn't means that the affiliated individual did not concentrate on the matters of combat. Vitiate swiftly defeated the ruler Sith Lord of Medriaas at the age of 10 in a confrontation, and he was possibly the most powerful Force-user among the ancients even during the era of Marka Ragnos.

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate. He amasses an army of Sith followers and turns his back on Imperial politics to hone his skills in the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Some other examples of notable scholars are Darth Traya and Gnost-Dural, and both were great warriors.

Ulic is far more combat-tested than Vitiate is?

Vitiate have defeated enormous number of opponents in confrontations, he began to kill since the age of 6. Also, Vitiate have spent centuries controlling the Sith and dealing with betrayals and vice versa. He had to contend with Strike Teams of powerful Force-users at times.

Vitiate's own words ring true:

"My life spans millennia. Legions have risen to test me."

I really doubt that anybody is as much combat-tested as Vitiate.

Exar himself disagrees with the notion that Ulic isn't a peer of his, lmfao. Come on, Leg, you can do better.

Originally posted by ILS
Exar himself disagrees with the notion that Ulic isn't a peer of his, lmfao. Come on, Leg, you can do better.
Here:

By the time he was finally defeated, Ulic Qel-Droma had become a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, second only to his partner Exar Kun.

Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

&

Although Ulic Qel-Droma eventually becomes one of the most powerful Sith Lords of his time, his reign was brief.

Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook



--

Exar Kun believed that Ulic Qel-Droma had the potential to challenge him, but this doesn't means that Ulc Qel-Droma remained his peer when Exar Kun reached his prime.

Well, peer is actually the wrong word; what I was getting at is that Ulic isn't as far off Kun as people tend to make out. When they both got their amulets, Exar sensed Ulic as a rival, and there's nothing to indicate that that parity changed after their duel. Exar is stronger in the Force, but not by too much.

Thanks for posting quotes we were both already aware of, doe.

Originally posted by Based
LMAO, so when we use Traya's drain it's bullshit to you that it's impossible to defend yet now that Vitiate is the one here no one is "absolutely immune."
Traya's ability to drain any being have never been disputed. The argument of Traya's ability to dismiss any being in the same manner as she dismissed some Jedi Masters, have been disputed and rightfully so. Understand the difference?

Pit Traya against Vitiate in a confrontation and the former will get her @ss handed to her on short notice. Vitiate have the strength and abilities to take Traya to the cleaners.

It may be possible to siphon energy from Vitiate but its impact on him would be lame due to his excellent strength, formidable defenses (including immortality), and ability to counter-drain in return. And confrontations with him do not typically last long anyways, he is such a formidable Force-user.

Proof that vitiate can drain in combat please.

Would have been super helpful to replenish his reserves against the HOT, but he still got trounced.

Originally posted by Selenial
Proof that vitiate can drain in combat please.

Would have been super helpful to replenish his reserves against the HOT, but he still got trounced.
The above have already been discussed in detail in this thread.

Draining in combat isn't different from draining in other situations. The target may try to resist in combat or otherwise. Vitiate frequently drained Revan from lightyears distance and Revan did not happen to be a willing subject.

Vitiate was vulnerable in this confrontation because he had lost much of his power in the disruption of his ultimate ritual. Vitiate was recovering, but HoT struck at the right time. In addition to Vitiate's vulnerability, HoT happened to be the most powerful Jedi of his era.

Not buying it, you haven't made a single argument that proves he can do it mid fight.

If you believe I'm wrong, point me to the post.

Originally posted by Selenial
Not buying it, you haven't made a single argument that proves he can do it mid fight.

If you believe I'm wrong, point me to the post.
Here is the proof:

REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

And what is this mid-fight nonsense? A Force-user doesn't needs to be in combat situation to resist an oppressive action. Similarly, a Force-user doesn't needs to be in a combat situation to perform an offensive action.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is the proof:

REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

And what is this mid-fight nonsense? A Force-user doesn't needs to be in combat situation to resist an oppressive action.

You mean that quote that occurs when vitiate is dozens of parsecs away?

It matters because if Vitiate's drain isn't instantaneous, then how on earth will he utilize it here.

For example, to encase herself in a full Telekinetic barrier, Talzin required 2-3 seconds to conjure it. Could be stabbed through the heart by then, given some of the speed in the Star Wars Universe.

Besides, Vitiate has never been shown to do anything other than slowly leech (Bar Natheema). There are different applications of drain, Vitiate's is not combat applicable.

Vitiate can almost certainly use a standard Force Drain in combat. Malak could and I refuse the idea that tin-chin could do something Vitiate couldn't. But Vitiate can't use Nihilus and Traya's specific technique.

Lol, so your entire argument is that your personal Malak bias is proof that Vitiate can use drain in combat?

Guys, Sidious could drain Natheema without the 8000 Sith because he's totally more powerful than vitiate and I refuse to believe that shitty carbon copy can do better than Sidious. Am I doing this right Neph?

Originally posted by Selenial
You mean that quote that occurs when vitiate is dozens of parsecs away?

It matters because if Vitiate's drain isn't instantaneous, then how on earth will he utilize it here.

For example, to encase herself in a full Telekinetic barrier, Talzin required 2-3 seconds to conjure it. Could be stabbed through the heart by then, given some of the speed in the Star Wars Universe.

Besides, Vitiate has never been shown to do anything other than slowly leech (Bar Natheema). There are different applications of drain, Vitiate's is not combat applicable.
Yes.

Vitiate's drain is not instantaneous as per?

Vitiate' conjured up barrier instantaneously when T3-M4 opened-up on him with its flamethrower. Talzin's limitations do not necessarily apply to Vitiate.

Vitiate does what he wants to do. I know that their are different applications of Drain, but I disagree with the notion that Vitiate cannot perform combat-applicable drain. He frequently drained Revan, as evidence. Revan survived because of his own formidable defenses and could leech energy from Surik's ghost to replenish his strength.

Vitiate

That's a different kind of barrier. She threw one up against Sidious and Dooku instantly, so I'd hardly try say Vitiate has better barrier showings.

So now that we've established the only reason you think he has Combat applicable drain is because you want him to have it, you may move on.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's a different kind of barrier. She threw one up against Sidious and Dooku instantly, so I'd hardly try say Vitiate has better barrier showings.

So now that we've established the only reason you think he has Combat applicable drain is because you want him to have it, you may move on.
So what kind of barrier took time to materialize?

No. I have already provided an example which proves that Vitiate can perform combat-applicable Drain. Their are no ifs and buts in this.

Because it was proof that different spheres of a power can sometimes require different times. For Talzin to totally encase her body in a sphere of a barrier took a couple seconds, a forward shield capable of blocking Sidious and Dooku however was instant.

Oh, and you really haven't. Anyone else can see that, not sure why you can't.

Originally posted by Selenial
Lol, so your entire argument is that your personal Malak bias is proof that Vitiate can use drain in combat?

Guys, Sidious could drain Natheema without the 8000 Sith because he's totally more powerful than vitiate and I refuse to believe that shitty carbon copy can do better than Sidious. Am I doing this right Neph?

Vitiate's force knowledge far exceeds Malaks. He comes from the empire that Malak is feeding scraps of knowledge from. An Empire where Nihilus' technique freaking originates from and that was known to have great knowledge of draining abilities.

Also Swtor Inquisitors and Sorcerers are stated to be able to use force drain in combat so yeah.

Originally posted by Selenial
Because it was proof that different spheres of a power can sometimes require different times. For Talzin to totally encase her body in a sphere of a barrier took a couple seconds, a forward shield capable of blocking Sidious and Dooku however was instant.
While I see your point, I don't see the relevance of it in the matters of Force Drain powers of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Selenial
Oh, and you really haven't. Anyone else can see that, not sure why you can't.
So draining Revan means nothing or you (and other critics) mistakenly assume that Revan was a willing subject?

Malak experienced Malachor, he never learned drain in a conventional way.

And congratulations I guess? There are many variations of drain so I'm not sure what that means, but just because an underling can do it doesn't mean Vitiate can. Or by extension Vitiate apparently has the dread masters power, Atris can use battle meditation or Yoda can use Vapaad.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
While I see your point, I don't see the relevance of it in the matters of Force Drain powers of Vitiate.


So draining Revan means nothing or you (and other critics) mistakenly assume that Revan was a willing subject?

Prove to me that Vitiate didn't have to prepare the draining of Revan, or that it didn't require him to form a link with Revan first.

Originally posted by Selenial
He never learned drain in a conventional way.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/11114/111140132/4511473-8949335928-mP6NW.gif

Originally posted by Selenial
And congratulations I guess? There are many variations of drain so I'm not sure what that means, but just because an underling can do it doesn't mean Vitiate can. Or by extension Vitiate apparently has the dread masters power, Atris can use battle meditation or Yoda can use Vapaad.
As a reminder, Vitiate explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. Your point is moot.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/11114/111140132/4511473-8949335928-mP6NW.gif

No idea what the relevance of that is.

I happily said he knew drain, but that he learned it off Malachor, not from some holocron.

Originally posted by Selenial
No idea what the relevance of that is.

I happily said he knew drain, but that he learned it off Malachor, not from some holocron.
Nvm, I didn't get what you meant by conventional.
---
I disagree. The drain from Malachor is different from the regular drain. Also, can you prove to me Malak ever walked on the surface? Revan did, but nothing I've read suggests Malak did.

Malak would have learned it either from Revan when he plundered the ancient underground city on Malachor V that was destroyed in the Mandalorian Wars, or from Korriban itself.

Originally posted by Selenial
Malak experienced Malachor, he never learned drain in a conventional way.

And congratulations I guess? There are many variations of drain so I'm not sure what that means, but just because an underling can do it doesn't mean Vitiate can. Or by extension Vitiate apparently has the dread masters power, Atris can use battle meditation or Yoda can use Vapaad.

What, you think Malak knew the Traya-Nihilus drain? No. I highly doubt Malak knew that version or he would have insta-pwned Revan. Wouldn't Malak have resisted Malachor's influence? He exhibits none of the symptons that using that version of force drain leads to.

Yes, like I said there are variations of drain. Vitiate can almost certainly use the standard force drain that any Sith bumpkin can learn. But he's not using Nihilus' variant. He'd never surrender his mind in such a manner, the whole point of the Nathema ritual was seemingly to use a similar process in a non-harmful manner, wouldn't you agree?

The only people in Revans empore who knew drain (confirmed anyway) were Malak, Revan and his assassins.

Malaks drain is underrated, he fully restored his own power using it. It appears to be the same power Traya/Surik used in that no other form of Drain has ever been shown to be that prominent.

Not to mention that Revans academy on Malachor was said to be the only method of learning Drain by Traya. If they knew of another source, she wouldn't have said anything of the sort.

Originally posted by Selenial
Prove to me that Vitiate didn't have to prepare the draining of Revan, or that it didn't require him to form a link with Revan first.
It is not stated or implied in any source that Vitiate had to perform a ritual to drain Revan. Vitiate drained many beings simultaneously to fuel his power, this is how he grew in power with passage of time.

It is also not stated or implied in any source that Vitiate's Force Drain powers are dependent upon his telepathic links with targets to materialize.

Except Vitiate's drain is slow and constant, that very much implies a unique form of drain that isn't applicable in combat. And the only people he's drained he has a link with, unless I'm missing someone.

Originally posted by Selenial
The only people in Revans empore who knew drain (confirmed anyway) were Malak, Revan and his assassins.

Malaks drain is underrated, he fully restored his own power using it. It appears to be the same power Traya/Surik used in that no other form of Drain has ever been shown to be that prominent.

Not to mention that Revans academy on Malachor was said to be the only method of learning Drain by Traya. If they knew of another source, she wouldn't have said anything of the sort.

No. Chris confirmed that the drain of Malachor has a major side-effect that the normal doesn't - it strips away your mind and identity, slowly consuming you. That's why Traya rarely used it.

Malak wouldn't have used it so freely on the Star Forge if that was true. We know for a fact Revan got the normal drain lore from Zelashiel the Blasphemer, and that's where Malak probably got it too.

Granted, Revan also knew of the drain Traya knew of, and was the one who originally exploited it by teaching it to the Assassins, but Revan wouldn't have taught Malak it. Plus, Malak would first have to travel to Malachor.

Originally posted by Selenial
The only people in Revans empore who knew drain (confirmed anyway) were Malak, Revan and his assassins.

Malaks drain is underrated, he fully restored his own power using it. It appears to be the same power Traya/Surik used in that no other form of Drain has ever been shown to be that prominent.

Not to mention that Revans academy on Malachor was said to be the only method of learning Drain by Traya. If they knew of another source, she wouldn't have said anything of the sort.

The only method of learning that variant, not standard force drain itself. The common version is, well, common.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. Chris confirmed that the drain of Malachor has a major side-effect that the normal doesn't - it strips away your mind and identity, slowly consuming you. That's why Traya rarely used it.

Malak wouldn't have used it so freely on the Star Forge if that was true. We know for a fact Revan got the normal drain lore from Zelashiel the Blasphemer, and that's where Malak probably got it too.

Granted, Revan also knew of the drain Traya knew of, and was the one who originally exploited it by teaching it to the Assassins, but Revan wouldn't have taught Malak it. Plus, Malak would first have to travel to Malachor.

I forgot about Zelashiel.

Doesn't bane explicitly state though that it's almost impossible to use in combat? Kinda proves my point, no?

Originally posted by Selenial
I forgot about Zelashiel.

Doesn't bane explicitly state though that it's almost impossible to use in combat? Kinda proves my point, no?

But Swtor mentions Inquisitor's using it on enemies a lot. Even Warriors can use it:

"Protecting their allies and punishing their adversaries, they charge into the thick of any fray, and take the brunt of the assault and are even able to drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve."

@Selenial: I didn't read your point in the first place, I merely wanted to correct the Malak part. I'm not trying to argue against or for you.
Well, debatable. Revan's holocron was damaged, so the motion Bane would have understood the full extend of what Revan/Malak did is not true.
And we also know holocron's only give information the user is powerful enough to understand, so perhaps that Bane simply wasn't ready to know how it could be used in combat.

Originally posted by Selenial
Except Vitiate's drain is slow and constant, that very much implies a unique form of drain that isn't applicable in combat. And the only people he's drained he has a link with, unless I'm missing someone.
Vitiate, apparently, continuously drained his Hands to fuel his power and satiate his hunger, but Vitiate transformed them into immortal beings beforehand. Due to the immorality, the Hands were able to endure Vitiate's Force Drain powers but they became weak and were not suitable for combat-oriented tasks.

Vitiate also frequently drained energy of his captives in the Dark Temple. The captives don't sound like willing targets, and I don't think that they lasted long in such conditions.

Revan endured Vitiate's drain by replenishing his energy from Surik's ghost whenever subjected to it. However, Revan's strength eventually began to falter during the course of his imprisonment and this motivated Surik's ghost to orchestrate his freedom. If not for Surik's ghost, I don't see the possibility of Revan to have survive the ordeal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What, you think Malak knew the Traya-Nihilus drain? No. I highly doubt Malak knew that version or he would have insta-pwned Revan. Wouldn't Malak have resisted Malachor's influence? He exhibits none of the symptons that using that version of force drain leads to.

Yes, like I said there are variations of drain. Vitiate can almost certainly use the standard force drain that any Sith bumpkin can learn. But he's not using Nihilus' variant. He'd never surrender his mind in such a manner, the whole point of the Nathema ritual was seemingly to use a similar process in a non-harmful manner, wouldn't you agree?
I really doubt that Traya can insta-pwn Revan with her Force Drain powers. Also, she learned what Revan had learned before her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate can almost certainly use a standard Force Drain in combat. Malak could and I refuse the idea that tin-chin could do something Vitiate couldn't. But Vitiate can't use Nihilus and Traya's specific technique.
Vitiate's nexus-augmented drain is the most potent display of Force Drain power in the mythos so far.

Not really. Also it was a ritual that he needed 8000 other Sith to do. It's not relevant to combat.

I saw a quote the other day that said it was among the most powerful Sith too, or something like that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. Also it was a ritual that he needed 8000 other Sith to do.
It is.

The ritual was performed to create an enormous nexus of the dark side on Medriaas. Vitiate was the only participant who successfully utilized this nexus for personal gains; the nexus provided Vitiate the opportunity to consume the entire biota of Medriaas.

Legend, Vitiate's drain was indeed the most potent one. Vitiate had more destructive results in Natemha than Nihilus did in Katarr. However, you gotta admit that Nihilus got those results with less effort and his drain is surely more combat applicable.

@Legend -



He isn't arguably the most powerful master of the Dark Side - not even Sidious is.

What's another determinant is the ability to do so whilst under the strain of combat, especially with another person attacking you at the same time that you're trying to Drain somebody else. As you said, no rocket science here. I hope you understand that I don't intend to claim that Vitiate simply cannot perform Drain, but that he would only do it in morals off because his entire history of combat does not involve Drain, and secondly, even if he did perform it here, it would be a fairly rare basis.



I've paid far more attention than you in this debate, LOL. I've read everything you've posted, whereas you've clearly failed to give me the same courtesy, because if you bothered to read my posts comprehensively, you'd realize that I said that even "a limited time" is sufficient to repel an attempt from Vitiate, who would not simply try to rinse and repeat the procedure. And it's ample time for Kun to retaliate with Blasts, which would fairly difficult for Vitiate to counter.



I know all of this - I don't know why you're repeating yourself. You do realize that all the examples of Vitiate siphoning strength from others involved beings too weak to resist (Revan, who could only resist mentally) or people who literally allowed Vitiate to siphon them, like his Servants. None of these happened under the strain of combat, and none of them were against people who actually were in any position to defend themselves. Doesn't work this way - that's like saying Bane can deflect a torrential rainstorm whilst dueling Darth Zannah because he's shown it before, even if it's not in a combative situation.



That's not how it works at all. Bane is also more powerful than Draagh and knows Drain, but he couldn't use it on short notice without amps.



I love how you speak of Vitiate as multiple people.

That being said, Vitiate's "dark and sinister techniques" largely revolve around rituals, and he hasn't displayed any of this stuff in combat. Illusions, Barrier, TP, Lightning and TK are just about everything he's shown in a fight, none of which are beyond Kun or Ulic's comprehension.

And I've already voiced that Vitiate can potentially win, lol.



I'm aware of all this - Naga Sadow knew every single power ever demonstrated in TotJ, Jedi or Sith, plus numerous more hidden in vaults and holocrons/scrolls. His knowledge includes powers the Jedi have never seen and can't withstand. Ragnos logically holds a comparable amount of knowledge.



Kun sensed Ulic as a peer, so yes, here's a peer, to some degree.

Not the novel Vitiate, who studied them and had genuine concern about them. Moreover, among Scourge's numerous visions, Vitiate was slain, it was just that there was an equal chance where Vitiate slew them.



Nope, I knew this already, and I mentioned it, too. You didn't bother to notice it earlier, though. Try to keep up.



1. What implies he's the most powerful of the era including Ragnos and Sadow? Numerous sources suggest that Ragnos and Sadow were the most powerful of their time, so this would be a major retcon which I doubt it is. Vitiate only became more powerful following the ritual on Medriaas, and after the events of the novel where he increased in power to become the most powerful character up to and of his time barring the Ones. And even then, he feared Sadow and Ragnos's spirits, so suggesting that he was more powerful than them before receiving that dramatic increase in power is stretching considerably in my opinion.

2. Right, except he dominates most via rituals or tricks, not combat. He rarely engages in combat to begin with, because of his supreme status (therefore few would challenge him), and numerous examples involve him being able to prepare beforehand and perform some sort of ritual. Ulic, on the other hand, has actually fought in physical/blade combat all his life. Vitiate's fights virtually never involve physical strength or lightsaber skill - he usually manages to win through straight Force power. So how he is tested in combat is different to how Ulic is tested in combat - and as I said, Vitiate's power could be sufficient to overwhelm the duo, but you're being seriously ignorant if you suggest that the reverse isn't a possibility. And yes, I'm aware you said it could happen, but for a minority - I'm just not sold on that, yet, since Vitiate considers the ancient Sith alone to be a threat to his power - and Kun is more powerful than any of them, or at least equal.

He was "tested" by legions, but most weren't defeated in strictly personal combat. He dominated most of those via rituals.

I feel so alone.