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I'm curious as to where you rank him compared to other notable Sith and Jedi. Wrath II, obviously.

Scenarios:
1. All-out
2. Saber duel

Full rest between each opponent.


1. AotC Anakin
2. Kit Fisto
3. RotS Kenobi
4. KotoR Revan (end game)
5. Scourge
6. Meetra Surik
7. Darth Maul
8. Ventress
9. Darth Zannah
10. Mace Windu (without Vapaad)
11. Vader
12. Dooku
13. DoE Bane
14. Nox
15. Exar Kun

What are Wrath's best force feats for anyone who is knowledgeable on him?

He's not really a major Force user, more defensive. His best feat is probably resisting the Dread Masters fleet-destroying mental attack.

What on earth is with this ordering?

Well, he probably stops at 3 or 4. Though he could basically strut through 5 and 6 before stopping again at 7, and then he could still handle 8.

Lol, I just realized how messed up my order is.

Let me rearrange that:

1. AotC Anakin
2. Kit Fisto
3. Ventress
4. RotS Kenobi
5. Darth Maul
6. KotoR Revan
7. Scourge
8. Meetra Surik
9. Darth Zannah
10. Mace Windu (without Vapaad)
11. Vader
12. Dooku
13. DoE Bane
14. Nox
15. Exar Kun

Vader is above Dooku as per canon sources. And how can you have Mace Windu without Vaapad...that's an unquantifiable. Its like saying Yoda without Ataru or Dooku without Makashi. Mace is Vaapad and Vaapad is Mace as he's the only one to truly master it.

It's just that I find it difficult to quantify effectively the impact Vapaad would have on the fight, as opposed to Ataru or Soresu or whatever. I'd say just imagine Wrath is a light sider, and analyze the fight in that manner. But maybe it's easier to just let him have Vapaad for this fight.

Considering vaapad doesn't normally amp him to the levels he was at in ROTS, I don't see why it should be removed. I feel like that's what most people are referring to when they take "take vaapad out" of a fight.

He's not going to be fighting at Sidious levels with vaapad normally. Just look at his fight with Dooku where they stalemated or his fight with Ventress.

Alright, he has Vaapad.

All wins.



Probably(?) all losses, not bad fights though



These guys shouldn't pose much of a threat, they'll put up fights but still shouldn't be after 4-6.



Uh, not sure. Should be pretty interesting, the Wrath could certainly win; for now I'll say this is a loss, though.



All losses here with the possible exception of Nox.

I think TOR Meetra is above KOTOR Revan. Barely, though. I believe he might win 4, 5, 6, tbh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
All wins.



Probably(?) all losses, not bad fights though



These guys shouldn't pose much of a threat, they'll put up fights but still shouldn't be after 4-6.



Uh, not sure. Should be pretty interesting, the Wrath could certainly win; for now I'll say this is a loss, though.



All losses here with the possible exception of Nox.

I think he'll lose handily to Nox. He is a total powerhouse. That said, imo people heavily underestimate Wrath.

1. Win.
1. Win.
3. Win.
4. Win.
5. Win.
6. Win.
7. Win.
8. Win.
9. Not sure. Possible win, but it's hard to say.
10. He'd probably lose about 7/10 against Mace.
11. He'll most likely lose, but not without a good fight first.
12. Same as 11
13. Lose
14. Lose
15. Lose

Beats Bane, Zannah, AOTC Anakin, Scourge,

Not sure about Surik

Loses to everyone else

Originally posted by carthage
Beats Bane, Zannah, AOTC Anakin, Scourge,

Not sure about Surik

Loses to everyone else

Scourge way before his prime was Meetra's equal so...

Originally posted by carthage
Beats Bane, Zannah, AOTC Anakin, Scourge,

Not sure about Surik

Loses to everyone else

Definitely beats Fisto, too.

Maybe

If he's more of a defensive force user, I see him losing to ROTS Kenobi in a duel.

He oneshot a Jedi and multiple troopers win Tk before the Jedi could react, blitzed a Jedi that charged him, and dropped a massive slab of duracreet on a guy with a flick of a wrist. He could probably ragdoll Kenobi, I'm not sure if he could win sabers though, most likely not

In terms of skill Wrath is probably equal to Plo Koon/Mara Jade/Jaina Solo/Cade Skywalker in terms of skill. Low tier 8 duelist imo

I wouldn't say he's defensive. As a duelist, he beat a Knight and a Master simultaneously, defeated Nomen Carr quite handily (who was regarded as one of the best duelists in the Order), defeated Darth Baras, blitzed Jedi and troopers... Off the top of my head.

He's supposed to be like the 2nd coming of Exar Kun.

I don't think we should even take this statement into consideration.

Originally posted by The Merchant
He's supposed to be like the 2nd coming of Exar Kun.

Said a low level grunt in a very sarcastic manner...

Emperor's Wrath aren't jokes. They are among the best of the best.

Emperor's Wrath II is likely to approach Nox or Kun. Might possibly clear, if Nox is not amped by ghosts.

Odd positioning of opponents though.

Th only thing I'd underatand people finding odd is that I placed Meetra after Revan. The list at the beginning of the thread isn't the good one, tho. There is a revised list somewhere down the page.

LOSES TO MAUL, KENOBI, KUN, VADER, VENTRESS, DOOKU, NOX,

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'm curious as to where you rank him compared to other notable Sith and Jedi. Wrath II, obviously.

Scenarios:
1. All-out
2. Saber duel

Full rest between each opponent.


1. AotC Anakin
2. Kit Fisto
3. RotS Kenobi
4. KotoR Revan (end game)
5. Scourge
6. Meetra Surik
7. Darth Maul
8. Ventress
9. Darth Zannah
10. Mace Windu (without Vapaad)
11. Vader
12. Dooku
13. DoE Bane
14. Nox
15. Exar Kun
what order is this LMAO

lol @ the idea of Ventress being > Maul

All-Out: Dies to Zannah, but beats Bane.
Sabers: Dies to Maul, but beats Bane and Nox.

Dies to Kotor Revan.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
3. RotS Kenobi
8. Ventress


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NmUcdptXsE

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Dies to Kotor Revan.

Ironic.

fvck; I missed Kenobi

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Dies to Kotor Revan.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ironic.

Beating a superior version of Revan doesn't mean he's above Revan. Just ask Drew.

Dies to KOTOR Revan, yes.

Raisins?

Beating a superior version of Revan?
He has only done that with several other people of his caliber, and Revan ironically.

Beating someone far more powerful than Exar Kun while weakened.

How was the Wrath weakened?

Is Fresh referring to the Foundry or am I off here?

Way off.

Originally posted by Geistalt
How was the Wrath weakened?

Clearly was responding to Freshest, tbh.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Way off. Interdasking. What does he mean by this then:
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Beating a superior version of Revan doesn't mean he's above Revan. Just ask Drew.

SOR. Because Foundry Revan is probably the weakest incarnation of Revan there is.

In which it literally states wrath can't take him alone, the context of the fight Proves it.

Oh; you meant KotOR Revan was far more powerful than Kun while weakened.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
SOR. Because Foundry Revan is probably the weakest incarnation of Revan there is. But Wrath had copious backup, and that was just one half of Revan's essence, while the other (apparently) helped empower the team.

So yeah, not sure why Fresh would bring up SOR.

What do you have to say for yourself, 'slice?

At insane speeds as well^

Even in the foundry, he still had a strike team.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Even in the foundry, he still had a strike team. It's soloable, as with Malgus.

Originally posted by ILS
It's soloable, as with Malgus.
Pretty sure that's just game mechanics. was sure you needed a strike team to do it.

It's classified as a flashpoint, which is mean't for team gameplay, much like a heroic 4, but with it's own instance.

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/flashpoints

This pretty much covers it's intent for Team gameplay.

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/group-missions

It's definitely a group mission, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of soloing it either, which appears to become possible at a high enough level. I don't think "Some threats around the galaxy are too dangerous for even the most seasoned warrior to take on alone." is really binding. It seems to be talking about gameplay, since these are challenges for groups of players. That doesn't mean Malgus is necessarily > HoT, etc, and that they made it solo-able seems telling.

Another example I'd draw is Mace Windu forming strike teams on two different occasions to deal with Maul. Is a team consisting of four Jedi masters, a padawan and a group of clone troopers required to kill Maul and Opress? No, but that's the team that was sent.

There's also the fact that Malgus has military resources, IIRC, that need to be destroyed before facing him, so in that case sending a group would make a lot of sense. That doesn't preclude one Jedi defeating Malgus.

The point is, only way you solo the flashpoint is through game mechanics.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The point is, only way you solo the flashpoint is through game mechanics. Pretty sure there is unique dialogue for both the Foundry and Malgus fights.

It's stated that a strike team fought Revan.

I'm sure that's what actually happened (maybe), doesn't mean it's the only possible course of action. Unless you have a quote?

Indeed, though I'd love to see a quote that invalidates possible scenarios in Legends. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, Ant?

Originally posted by ILS
Unless you have a quote?





Curiously enough, mined data suggests The False Emperor flashpoint was originally intended to be a 8 player mission, as there's a version of the FP on the database where all PC's can participate.

Is there a quote that says only a group of four could defeat Malgus or Revan? If not, what you just posted was completely irrelevant to the point. Dialogue supports the fact that Revan and Malgus could both be defeated alone, and that makes those scenarios valid. End of discussion.

Though the idea that there is a definite to any of this is false either way because they're both in Legends, which is not a continuity last I checked. Valid scenarios work for argumentation and placement.

A group of it's most powerful champions, that clearly means He is not facing one lmfao.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/group

And FYI Kotor Revan would destroy foundry Revan.

There's no source for that, and again, not the point. What a sourcebook said back before the Legends split has no impact on the validity of the single player content that is also in the game. If the game says said scenario is possible, it is possible unless stated otherwise. Show where it says it's not possible, or concede.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Is there a quote that says only a group of four could defeat Malgus or Revan?

By it's own definition, a flashpoint is intended, including story-wise, as demonstrated by the FP entries I posted above, to be a group oriented activity.



http://www.swtor.com/holonet/flashpoints

By rigorously following it's own definition, a flashpoint can't be dissociated from team play. Which brings back what Skillz stated about the solo mode being a workround for players that can't or don't want to find a group.

It's okay, the Smuggler is pretty badass any way, and Malgus should take no shame in his L.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
By it's own definition, a flashpoint is intended, including story-wise, as demonstrated by the FP entries I posted above, to be a group oriented activity.



http://www.swtor.com/holonet/flashpoints

By rigorously following it's own definition, a flashpoint can't be dissociated from team play. Which brings back what Skillz stated about the solo mode being a workround for players that can't or don't want to find a group.
And yet story mode flashpoints are clearly marked solo, and dialogue backs this up. Now, give me the evidence I asked for, or you can do as I recommended Hasch. I'll gladly take two concessions, as opposed to one.

"Escaping imprisonment in a mad bid to destroy the Emperor for good, he was stopped by an Imperial strike force and believed dead."

mmm

I see you too don't quite know how to read. An example of a strike team that is obviously required is Revan in SOR where Revan flat outstates the player can't defeat EVULZ-Revan alone, and he's shown to be overwhelming. What you posted is not evidence, and is in fact contradicted by dialogue when you go solo. The fact that more people show up does not mean that more people are required, this being if we take outside sources as definite, especially when the person they are combating loses. You need hard evidence that Revan can't be solo'd to dismiss the very hard evidence that he can be.

It's clear what happened was that a strike team fought Revan. The solo options are overruled by the codex.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And yet story mode flashpoints are clearly marked solo, and dialogue backs this up. Now, give me the evidence I asked for, or you can do as I recommended Hasch. I'll gladly take two concessions, as opposed to one.

The two definitions of Flashpoints in the whole of swtor.com literally states it's a story-driven, group activity. If they could be "canonically" soloed, it'd render the entire definition wrong - not only that, there'd be no reason to have flashpoints at all, story-wise.

That it's a group activity does not mean said group activity cannot be completed by one player, which is 100% possible.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's clear what happened was that a strike team fought Revan. The solo options are overruled by the codex.
I didn't punch the shit out of you for this half assed response, but trust me that it's very possible for me to. What we are discussing is possibility. Stop dodging.

Except simply being a possibility doesn't warrant it being legitimate material for a Legends debate.

The "legend" would be that a strike team defeated Revan. There is not sub-Legends for every differing possible move the player makes.

If there is, gladly share proof from Chee or Pablo.

Originally posted by ILS
That it's a group activity does not mean said group activity cannot be completed by one player, which is 100% possible.



Originally posted by TenebrousWay
If they could be "canonically" soloed, it'd render the entire definition wrong - not only that, there'd be no reason to have flashpoints at all, story-wise.

It seems clear to me that, by it's own definition and it's own reason to exist, Flashpoints, story-wise, are a group based event.

It said "some of which" are too dangerous for you on your own. Not every single flashpoint for every single player. Some players are perfectly capable of soloing Malgus as a Republic Trooper, and nowhere is it stated that this scenario, which has it's own unique dialogue, is necessarily impossible.

It probably seems clear to you because you have forsaken the good name of Tenebrous and developed a soft spot for bald failures. Repent, my brother. Repent before it is too late.

They've already conceded, ILS, given they refuse to provide the information asked for yet continue to reply. I assume these are just really long wided ways of saying, "You're right and I'm so very, very wrong." No need to rub it in.

Agreed, best not to do that.

Originally posted by ILS
It said "some of which" are too dangerous for you on your own. Not every single flashpoint for every single player.

When it states "some of which", it refers missions in general, which flashpoints are a subset of. It's explicitly referring flashpoints as these "some of which".





Perhaps because these are gameplay mechanics? Mechanics that conflict with the very definition of Flashpoint and, if taken as "canon", would render the whole feature of a Flashpoint - and it's reason to be - irrelevant - both gameplay-wise and story-wise.



Any character whose objective is to wage eternal warfare deserves a soft spot, although with my newfound infatuation with Mace, Malgus will probably be relegated to second fiddle in the future.

And yet, you can do flashpoints on your own, so that statement is incorrect. Likely because it wasn't intended to be looked at so hyper-literally.

Story-wise, unique dialogue was written for every class when soloing Malgus, so that argument is flawed. Gameplay mechanic-wise, flashpoints very much serve their purpose, as they are designed to be more challenging than normal missions, which encourages group play. Again, though, no refutation has been offered to the simple fact Malgus is susceptible the cunning Smuggler or the brute-force power of the Republic Trooper.

That dialogue is as non-canon as the Endor DLC.

"Captain Sarkli." "My liege?" "Take your troops and destroy the clone."