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Palpatine as of Return of the Jedi.

Vader as of A New Hope.
Malgus during his reign as the False Emperor.

Vader recruits Malgus so that they can overthrow the Emperor. Can they succeed? Palpatine is equipped with two of his lightsabers. Battle takes place on Hypori. Starting distance is 50 meters.

The duo dies.

Do you think they could take Palps if it was RotJ Vader?

Bump.

Doesn't matter which Vader it is. The duo has no hope.

I disagree. Vader, on his own, is about 80% of Sidious, and Malgus is no slouch. They won't be easy to separate and take on solo either.

They definitely stand a chance.

50 meter starting distance? That does give Palpatine the opportunity to go all Vitiate on them.

Palpy.

Oh, as long as Palpy doesn't do anything stupid like shocking Vader's son to death, he shouldn't have a problem.

The 50 meters distance is a huge advantage to Sidious. He'd make the most of it going all-offensive with the Force. I'm not sure if they have enough defense to survive his attacks. If this was a close quarters fight, with say, 2 meters of separation, they'd put on a really good fight against him. I'd say they have a real good chance at defeating him.

He has so many ways to kill them

They get force f***ed at a far distance, they get outdueled and smacked down at close range.

They do not win.

Originally posted by Trocity
They get force f***ed at a far distance, they get outdueled and smacked down at close range.

They do not win.

Nah Vader chucks an At-At at him

Young fools...you will pay the price for your lack of vision! Only now do you understand your feeble skills can never compete with mine!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah Vader chucks an At-At at him

Originally posted by carthage
He has so many ways to kill them

But they have defenses against his ways, and their added-together power is going to be more total omph than just-him.


Again, we know that Vader himself isn't that far behind.

Originally posted by Trocity
They get force f***ed at a far distance, they get outdueled and smacked down at close range.

They do not win.

This won't be like Savage and Maul, or like Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and company. These two are true powerhouses. Together at close range they could pose a significant threat to Sidious.

Not saying it'd be easy for anyone, though. If they do manage to defeat Sidious, it will certainly be an extremely long, painful duel in which both Sith would end up injured badly. I think it could go either way, saberwise. Vader has a speed disadvantage, other than the fact that Sidious knows him all too well.

Mmmm....probably the team actually.

Starting distance makes this a stomp.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Starting distance makes this a stomp.

How so?

The duo can do a combined two-person TK at a distance. They don't lack in ranged force either, and again, additive power.


Originally posted by Col. Valerian
This won't be like Savage and Maul, or like Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and company. These two are true powerhouses. Together at close range they could pose a significant threat to Sidious.

Not saying it'd be easy for anyone, though. If they do manage to defeat Sidious, it will certainly be an extremely long, painful duel in which both Sith would end up injured badly. I think it could go either way, saberwise. Vader has a speed disadvantage, other than the fact that Sidious knows him all too well.


Right. It'll be a pretty brutal fight, I picture. Vader and Malgus will take damage, but they're bricks, they *can* take damage, and output a lot of offense while doing so.

More to the point, there's another thread with a weaker version of Sidious against these two and Maul besides.

If he can take 3, these two have no chance.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
More to the point, there's another thread with a weaker version of Sidious against these two and Maul besides.

If he can take 3, these two have no chance.

In that thread Sidious gets stomped. In this one he gets soundly defeated.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
More to the point, there's another thread with a weaker version of Sidious against these two and Maul besides.

If he can take 3, these two have no chance.
I remember that there was an argument that Sidious grew in power between RotS and RotJ.

Of course he did. He had all that time to fvck around with Sith artifacts, holocrons, shrines, etc. He was just in the basement basically of the old Jedi Temple/Imperial Palace jus' fvcking with shit. How could he not have grown in power?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Of course he did. He had all that time to fvck around with Sith artifacts, holocrons, shrines, etc. He was just in the basement basically of the old Jedi Temple/Imperial Palace jus' fvcking with shit. How could he not have grown in power?
Hardcore training that makes characters strain their limits is what makes them more powerful not ****ing around with artifacts.

Learning from holocrons and artifacts increases one's knowledge of the Force and how they'd be able to use it in certain scenarios. And lol@ Palpatine not doing hardcore training

The ancient Sith would disagree. All TOR era Sith DID for a living is screw around with artifacts. The process of messing with ancient stuff is how he learned what the Sith of thousands of years ago did for giggles.

Sidious wins.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In that thread Sidious gets stomped. In this one he gets soundly defeated.


If Sidious does lose the other thread, he isn't getting stomped or even soundly defeated. Savage and Malgus aren't far apart in sheer power, except Savage doesn't have lightning.

Even in Sidious's fight with Yoda on the spirit plane, Anakin provided absolutely no help because of the power distance between Sidious and Anakin. And while Anakin was only an illusion, Yoda thought he was the real deal, and new he was running head first to his doom. Yoda knows how powerful Anakin is, and before Anakin intervened, Yoda was equally matched by Sidious, indicating that Yoda thinks of Anakin as fodder to one who is equal to him in power. If you take that into account, Maul and Malgus would be easy take outs for Sidious.

I'm not sure why you see this team as soundly defeating Sidious. Vader being 80% of Sidious has nothing to do with how much support his teammate would provide. Yoda was an equal of Palpatine's and didn't even think Kenobi would provide him any help. Yoda's opinion makes more sense now that he had faced Sidious on the spirit plane.

From that distance he can just TP either of them and just kill the other via blitz or some other force power. He wouldn't even break a sweat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Sidious does lose the other thread, he isn't getting stomped or even soundly defeated. Savage and Malgus aren't far apart in sheer power, except Savage doesn't have lightning.

But he is a lot more polish, and he has Vader with him.

Savage's main problem when he fought Sidious wasn't power, it's that the skill gap was enough that Sidious could just dance through his guard and stab him.



Vader's stronger than that Anakin, though. Certainly less reckless.





Yea, there's *no way* he can take on those three. At that point, they have the option of just standing side-by-side and force'ing him til he's dead. Or taking him in melee for sure. Either way.

Originally posted by Q99
But he is a lot more polish, and he has Vader with him.


Not a lot, he isn't. He relies heavily on his strength as Savage does. In the force, Malgus has lightning whereas Savage doesn't, but that's the biggest difference.

And Savage had Maul with him. Didn't stop Sidious from stomping them without even taking them seriously.


Originally posted by Q99
Savage's main problem when he fought Sidious wasn't power, it's that the skill gap was enough that Sidious could just dance through his guard and stab him.


That's because Sidious held back his force power. Yes, there is a huge power gap between Sidious and Maul + Savage, let alone just Savage. However, you are right about the gap in skill. I'd also add the obvious speed gap as well. The gaps are about the same between Palpatine and Malgus.


If Sidious decided to use more of the force, then it would have been a huge problem and a quick victory for Sidious. Savage is no match for Sidious' TK as shown when he was unable to break free from Sidious grip despite Sidious also dividing his attention to hold Maul, or when he was unable to prevent himself from being gripped and pulled them off a balcony by a Sidious as he was falling, and again Sidious was directing his power at Maul, who was also helpless. They both were shown to be helpless even together (and more than once).



Originally posted by Q99
Vader's stronger than that Anakin, though. Certainly less reckless.


I wasn't exactly comparing Vader to Anakin. Just that the argument of Vader being 80% of Sidious and Malgus filling in the gap, is very faulty, especially when it didn't help Yoda, who was equal to Sidious. Yoda didn't even want to bring Obi Wan, because he knew Obi Wan's death would be nothing but an after thought for Sidious. Hell, Dooku has eliminated Obi Wan easily while fighting Anakin, who is far closer to Dooku in sheer power than Vader is to Palpatine.



Originally posted by Q99
Yea, there's *no way* he can take on those three. At that point, they have the option of just standing side-by-side and force'ing him til he's dead. Or taking him in melee for sure. Either way.


Sidious being vastly faster than them, and having far better precognition and reflexes, the chances of him taking out a weak link before they read each other's mind to decide to combine their powers, are far greater.

Though, that would be a possibility if they had prep, plan ahead, and do it at the start, but in up close combat, it would be much more difficult, especially when they, individually, will be on constant guard to protect themselves from any form of attack Sidious will throw. In other words, for them to pull that off, would require very coordinated team work, which I don't see being the case with them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Sidious does lose the other thread, he isn't getting stomped or even soundly defeated. Savage and Malgus aren't far apart in sheer power, except Savage doesn't have lightning.

Even in Sidious's fight with Yoda on the spirit plane, Anakin provided absolutely no help because of the power distance between Sidious and Anakin. And while Anakin was only an illusion, Yoda thought he was the real deal, and new he was running head first to his doom. Yoda knows how powerful Anakin is, and before Anakin intervened, Yoda was equally matched by Sidious, indicating that Yoda thinks of Anakin as fodder to one who is equal to him in power. If you take that into account, Maul and Malgus would be easy take outs for Sidious.

I'm not sure why you see this team as soundly defeating Sidious. Vader being 80% of Sidious has nothing to do with how much support his teammate would provide. Yoda was an equal of Palpatine's and didn't even think Kenobi would provide him any help. Yoda's opinion makes more sense now that he had faced Sidious on the spirit plane.

Well going by the new Canon, Vader may be even more than 80% of Sidious. It sounds like he'll be his near equal. Will find out when Lords of the Sith comes out, but his feats are already making him seem that way in new Star Wars comics.

And it's not like his back up here are completely useless. I'm assuming Vader's not just going to stand there while Sidious Tk's his team.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well going by the new Canon, Vader may be even more than 80% of Sidious. It sounds like he'll be his near equal. Will find out when Lords of the Sith comes out, but his feats are already making him seem that way in new Star Wars comics.

And it's not like his back up here are completely useless. I'm assuming Vader's not just going to stand there while Sidious Tk's his team.


You do realize Vader has tons of far greater feats in the EU? I mean, yeah canon is new and we will get more from him in the future, but I'm not seeing how you would draw such a conclusion from that single showing when Sidious's overpowering of Maul and Savage alone is vastly greater, considering their own feats. Not to mention how effortlessly Palaptine strangled Dooku from across the galaxy. Here, I assume we are going by Vader's EU feats, which is a far greater source to go by for the purpose of this thread, otherwise Vader is not much here.

What can Vader do to prevent it, being vastly slower? I mean, Anakin was unable to prevent Dooku from TKing Obi Wan despite there not even being much of a gap between them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
but I'm not seeing how you would draw such a conclusion from that single showing when Sidious's overpowering of Maul and Savage alone is vastly greater, considering their own feats.

From a strictly canon perspective? Gotta disagree. Maul and Savage's best TK feat is pushing starships not bad but considerably less impressive then lifting an AT-AT let alone ripping it apart (these thing have armor strong enough to be unscathed by turbolasers...).

Originally posted by ares834
From a strictly canon perspective? Gotta disagree. Maul and Savage's best TK feat is pushing starships not bad but considerably less impressive then lifting an AT-AT let alone ripping it apart (these thing have armor strong enough to be unscathed by turbolasers...).


DP stated that Darth Vader is seemingly portrayed as Sidious's equal based on that single showing. I wasn't comparing them to Vader. Vader has always been depicted as more powerful than Maul or Savage, and that's including their EU showings. Even if we restrict Sidious and Vader to canon only, Sidious domination over Maul and Savage simultaneously, and Dooku across the galaxy beats Vader's showing by far, as I doubt we'll see Vader replicate such domination over characters of such caliber.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
DP stated that Darth Vader is seemingly portrayed as Sidious's equal based on that single showing. I wasn't comparing them to Vader.

Firstly I said Near equal. Not equal.

Secondly I didn't say based solely on that 1 feat. The new novel Lords of the Sith seems to be portraying them as such, (but I admit we should wait until it is released).

Thirdly in terms of Canon feats, Vader probably has the most beastly lifting feat in that comic.


As for my argument it was based on having the back up Vader has here. Remember Mace beat Sidious starting the fight with back up that were fodder to him. Vader's proposed back up in these 2 threads are presumably greater than the "fodder"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly I said Near equal. Not equal.

Secondly I didn't say based solely on that 1 feat. The new novel Lords of the Sith seems to be portraying them as such, (but I admit we should wait until it is released).

Thirdly in terms of Canon feats, Vader probably has the most beastly lifting feat in that comic.


As for my argument it was based on having the back up Vader has here. Remember Mace beat Sidious starting the fight with back up that were fodder to him. Vader's proposed back up in these 2 threads are presumably greater than the "fodder"


Where are you that from? Quote? Source?

No, Sidious casually dominating Maul and Savage simultaneously, and Dooku across the galaxy is still the best in terms of strict canon.

Presumably by who? TOR fans? Again, Malgus isn't much greater than Maul or Savage. Mace's fodder team was irrelevant to Mace's victory over Sidious, so bad example. The Dooku example works much better, other than the fact that Anakin had the power to beat Dooku alone (which isn't the case with Sidious vs Vader), but the large gap between Dooku and Kenobi allowed Dooku to take him out of the fight multiple times.


EDIT: Not sure why you'd even want to use Mace vs Sidious as an example for your argument. If Sidious crushes Vader's team that swiftly, Vader is done for. It would be a stomp.

Probably Sidious, given the fairly massive distance. Would definitely be a good fight under conventional conditions, though.

Anyone can post or at least give the source to Vader destroying an AT-ST?

Originally posted by ares834
(these thing have armor strong enough to be unscathed by turbolasers...).

Where's that from? :hmm

Originally posted by The Merchant
Anyone can post or at least give the source to Vader destroying an AT-ST? http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/22147777/001.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/22147778/002.png.html

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And Savage had Maul with him. Didn't stop Sidious from stomping them without even taking them seriously.

That fight took several minutes and required him to split them up before he took them down.

And here? Both fighters are better than either of those two, *way* better than Savage.






Problem, range. At a distance, there's all the more time to react and defend against whatever he's throwing.

Precog should be an area of fairly small gap. Physical speed and precog are two different things, and Anakin has good precog. He's never had problem reacting to a fast person.

I'll note how Talzin + Maul was able to clash with Sidious at ranged force, and expected to win were it not for Dooku joining in.




Up close, they're both *very* good saber masters, it's their specialties, and Sidious needs to defend himself from heavy blows constantly while only using the strength of one arm in each block.


While a win is possible, if he can wound one of 'em early enough, it is a rough spot indeed and I do believe it favors the duo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
DP stated that Darth Vader is seemingly portrayed as Sidious's equal based on that single showing. I wasn't comparing them to Vader. Vader has always been depicted as more powerful than Maul or Savage, and that's including their EU showings. Even if we restrict Sidious and Vader to canon only, Sidious domination over Maul and Savage simultaneously, and Dooku across the galaxy beats Vader's showing by far, as I doubt we'll see Vader replicate such domination over characters of such caliber.

Except, I'd say it's more impressive then either as it completely eclipses anything Maul/Savage or Dooku has done.

Force Lightning of Sidious' degree is too much for either of them to withstand whilst closing down a 50 meter distance.

People are forgetting he has already TPed Vader, and Vader is more powerful has superior telepath feats to Malgus as is.

He can literally bring any of them down to their knees, aside from ragdolling them or blitzing them

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Where are you that from? Quote? Source?


There was a description from Lords of the Sith that made it sound like that. It sounded like that to a few people, but can't find it now. Will see when the book comes out now (next month).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, Sidious casually dominating Maul and Savage simultaneously, and Dooku across the galaxy is still the best in terms of strict canon.


But Vader has the best "lifting" feat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace's fodder team was irrelevant to Mace's victory over Sidious, so bad example.

EDIT: Not sure why you'd even want to use Mace vs Sidious as an example for your argument. If Sidious crushes Vader's team that swiftly, Vader is done for. It would be a stomp.


Because I think they did effect the fight with Mace, given Sidious was dominating the beginning of that fight, so those first extra 7 seconds concentrating solely on Mace could have made the difference.

You think Sidious vs Vader 1 on 1 would be a Stomp? You don't think Sidious would beat him with difficulty?

Originally posted by Q99
That fight took several minutes and required him to split them up before he took them down.


By this logic, Krayt required dark transfer to beat Cade.


Originally posted by Q99
And here? Both fighters are better than either of those two, *way* better than Savage.


I'd like for you to prove this.

Maul is on par with Vader in terms of saber prowess.



Originally posted by Q99
Problem, range. At a distance, there's all the more time to react and defend against whatever he's throwing.


You do realize direct application of TK happens instantly? If Maul and Savage can't defend against it while it's being divided between them, then Malgus has no hope.

As far as lightning, peak Malgus (after he killed Aleema) got burned while blocking a lightning attack from Adraas, whose lightning doesn't even begin to compare to Sidious'. Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands, so I don't think Malgus's saber defense is good enough here.



Originally posted by Q99
Precog should be an area of fairly small gap. Physical speed and precog are two different things, and Anakin has good precog. He's never had problem reacting to a fast person.


Yeah, he's never fought anyone as fast as Sidious, and he's certainly not on par with Sidious speedwise, otherwise there'd had been no fight between him and Obi Wan. Obi Wan would go down to Sidious as easily as the B-team.

You only need slightly better precognition and be a great deal faster for it to matter.

Instead of just stating what you think, you need to back it up a bit more. You're argument basically: "these two are good fighters and powerful, and see Sidious fought Maul and Savage for several minutes; oh and these guys are strong."


Originally posted by Q99
I'll note how Talzin + Maul was able to clash with Sidious at ranged force, and expected to win were it not for Dooku joining in.


Talzin at the heart of her power is on par with Sidious evidently. Using her, especially at the heart of her nightsister power, is a bad example. Well, actually Sidious was powering through her lightning within a few panels until Maul joined in, and I don't remember anything implying they'd have overpowered him. The help of weakened Dooku, who was using only one hand was enough to kill them both once Talzin's shield was overpowered/down according to her.

Different scenario here, and I doubt Malgus would want to tangle with Sidious in a lightning contest. And we know Vader doesn't have lightning.


Originally posted by Q99
Up close, they're both *very* good saber masters, it's their specialties, and Sidious needs to defend himself from heavy blows constantly while only using the strength of one arm in each block.


He casually dealt with Savage's and Maul's strength without feeling the need to go all out and while enjoying himself. He won't have a problem here. And if he does, he can always resort to heavy force usage, something he didn't do against Maul and Savage, assuming he even allows them to get up close.


Sidious also blitzed through a team of *very* good saber masters, so you need to come up with something better.


Originally posted by Q99
While a win is possible, if he can wound one of 'em early enough, it is a rough spot indeed and I do believe it favors the duo.


Ok.


Originally posted by ares834
Except, I'd say it's more impressive then either as it completely eclipses anything Maul/Savage or Dooku has done.


Being far more impressive than them in TK isn't the same as being able to casually ragdoll them with it. Don't know how the new canon is going to depict power levels, but for all of Vader's raw TK feats in the old canon, he's never ragdolled two Maul level opponents at once or a Dooku level character from across the galaxy, whereas Sidious has done both very easily.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There was a description from Lords of the Sith that made it sound like that. It sounded like that to a few people, but can't find it now. Will see when the book comes out now (next month).


No, it didn't. Not from what I recall.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Vader has the best "lifting" feat.


He's always had better "lifting" feats than Sidious. Dooku, Maul and Savage do to.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because I think they did effect the fight with Mace, given Sidious was dominating the beginning of that fight, so those first extra 7 seconds concentrating solely on Mace could have made the difference.


If they were instrumental in Mace's victory then Mace would have been on the winning end when they were present, or at least right after Sidious downed them, not a good minute later. I mean, they were probably instrumental in not getting Mace completely overwhelmed from the start, but nothing more than that.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You think Sidious vs Vader 1 on 1 would be a Stomp? You don't think Sidious would beat him with difficulty?


We're using EU, so yeah. Perhaps easier in canon since we don't know if Vader made adjustments to his suit for lightning defense. Even in a strict saber duel, Sidious would wear him down quite solidly.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Being far more impressive than them in TK isn't the same as being able to casually ragdoll them with it. Don't know how the new canon is going to depict power levels, but for all of Vader's raw TK feats in the old canon, he's never ragdolled two Maul level opponents at once or a Dooku level character from across the galaxy, whereas Sidious has done both very easily.


Kanan ragdolled the Inquisitor in their first encounter despite being inferior. Anyway, based solely on feats Vader should be able to do the same as Sidious did. Now, do I actually think he is capable of it? Probably not. But from a strictly feat perspective, Vader's appears superior.

The Inquisitor was only "ragdolled" by Kanan because he was caught off guard. Similar to Ahsoka Force pushing Ventress that massive distance in "Cloak of Darkness."

And Palpatine caught Maul and Savage off-guard as well.

Originally posted by ares834
Kanan ragdolled the Inquisitor in their first encounter despite being inferior. Anyway, based solely on feats Vader should be able to do the same as Sidious did. Now, do I actually think he is capable of it? Probably not. But from a strictly feat perspective, Vader's appears superior.


Kanan may very well be more powerful than the Inquisitor, but unfinished training may have prevented Kanan from doing so consistently with such feats being mostly dictated by circumstance. After all, Kanan seems quite powerful, and I haven't watched all of the episodes so I'm sure there are feats that I'm missing.

Judging from the TCW, the only time we see that level of dominance is if the force user is far superior than his/her opponent, or if a force user is in an unusual fit of rage and with a lot of strain (Ventress to Anakin/Kenobi; Savage to Dooku/Ventress). Yoda casually paralyzed Ventress while calm and holding a conversation with the king of Toydaria, whereas Anakin was only able to do so to Ventress while unleashing his anger, otherwise she holds her own against him quite well, even lands force attacks on him. The difference, Yoda's casual domination over her suggests he can do so any time without circumstance, whereas Anakin can only do so under certain circumstance, despite the fact that Anakin has the best TK feat in the series (toppling an underwater building).

We'll just have to see how new canon depicts Vader. I don't think we'll be seeing him easily tame Maul and Savage level force users, not casually and consistently anyway.

EDIT: SOD confirms Maul was intending to draw Sidious away from Corsuscant to fight him, so there is nothing to indicate he was taken off-guard, especially after Sidious entered the room so aggressively and gave Maul somewhat of a warning before he attacked. Regardless, Sidious did it more than once. Sidious wasn't catching them off-guard every time.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
The Inquisitor was only "ragdolled" by Kanan because he was caught off guard.


He kept him pinned up though and the Inquisitor couldn't break free of Kanan's grip.

Inquisitor by the end of the story is more powerful than Kanan.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Inquisitor by the end of the story is more powerful than Kanan.

Do you mean that the other way around?

I saw no evidence that Kanan's Tk was ever a match for The Inquisitor's. Not even by the end of the season.

Darth Kanan Jarrus would ragdoll Maul tbh

Vader doesn't deserve this.

Originally posted by ILS
Darth Kanan Jarrus would ragdoll Maul tbh *ragdoll Sidious and Maul tbh

LOL at anything short of a One ragdolling Sidious.

Even GM Luke can't ragdoll DE Sidious. He has an advantage, but not enough to make him look like a 3rd rate n00b.

Nah, brah. Kanan is an A-list Jedi. He makes the Ones shit themselves with his immense power.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Nah, brah. Kanan is an A-list Jedi. He makes the Ones shit themselves with his immense power. *bruh* bruh

Originally posted by ares834
Kanan ragdolled the Inquisitor in their first encounter despite being inferior.


Have I mentioned how much I dislike the use of the word 'ragdolled' for whenever someone force-pushes someone else?


Being pushed rarely does more than buy time for the other person, and can happen despite power disparities as no-one has force defense up all the time. A Padawan could force throw Sidious if the latter didn't actively defend against it.

Originally posted by Q99
Have I mentioned how much I dislike the use of the word 'ragdolled' for whenever someone force-pushes someone else?


Being pushed rarely does more than buy time for the other person, and can happen despite power disparities as no-one has force defense up all the time. A Padawan could force throw Sidious if the latter didn't actively defend against it.


Yes but Kanan actually "Pinned" the Inquisitor, and the Inquisitor couldn't break free. Even though the Inquisitor was clearly much more powerful in the Force at the time.

That scene really answers everyone who says the cut scene of the Sidious vs Maul and Opress fight isn't canon because it contradicts the rest of the fight simply due to Maul pinning Sidious at one point.

Deleted scenes aren't canon, though. Thank God.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Deleted scenes aren't canon, though. Thank God.


So you're saying it's a complete mystery how the fight went in the Palace, even though that was filmed?

And actually you're wrong, because there's whole episodes not completed (deleted episodes from S6) like that scene, which are officially canon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So you're saying it's a complete mystery how the fight went in the Palace, even though that was filmed?

And actually you're wrong, because there's whole episodes not completed (deleted episodes from S6) like that scene, which are officially canon. If they don't confirm what was in the deleted scene as canon then it isn't. A shit load of deleted scenes in the movies were filmed and they'd fit into the film, but they're considered non-canon.

Um, they are whole episodes that were in production, not little scenes. And they were confirmed to be canon, unlike the deleted scene. Give me a source saying the deleted scene in the Maul episode is canon and I'll gladly accept it.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
If they don't confirm what was in the deleted scene as canon then it isn't. A shit load of deleted scenes in the movies were filmed and they'd fit into the film, but they're considered non-canon.

Um, they are whole episodes that were in production, not little scenes. And they were confirmed to be canon, unlike the deleted scene. Give me a source saying the deleted scene in the Maul episode is canon and I'll gladly accept it.


Well I'll accept it's a great area. But I don't accept it's outright non-canon, when the scene in question is clearly missing from the episode, and it was made to fill in that gap.

It's like Yoda disarming Sidious in the ROTS script. That scene was never even filmed, but happens in the gaps of that fight which we don't see. Whilst this scene was at least filmed, but left out due to time constraints (that much is confirmed by Filoni).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I'll accept it's a great area. But I don't accept it's outright non-canon, when the scene in question is clearly missing from the episode, and it was made to fill in that gap.

It's like Yoda disarming Sidious in the ROTS script. That scene was never even filmed, but happens in the gaps of that fight which we don't see. Whilst this scene was at least filmed, but left out due to time constraints (that much is confirmed by Filoni). There are many reasons why a scene might be deleted, but it's non-canon nontheless. (Or at least left ambiguous.)

It is kind of like Yoda disarming Sidious, yeah. But Yoda doing that was confirmed in the RotS junior novel, while the contents of the deleted Maul/Savage vs. Sidious fight is not confirmed to have actually had happen, even if it fits.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
It is kind of like Yoda disarming Sidious, yeah. But Yoda doing that was confirmed in the RotS junior novel,
Nice. I forgot about it.

Yoda > Sidious in sabers, confirmed.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
There are many reasons why a scene might be deleted, but it's non-canon nontheless. (Or at least left ambiguous.)


So you're saying the portion of the fight that happened inside the Palace is left a mystery to us, even though we have it?

I think it's canon unless it's contradicted by the events which made it to the episode, or unless the creators say something like "we deleted that because in the end we thought it didn't make sense".


Originally posted by |King Joker|
It is kind of like Yoda disarming Sidious, yeah. But Yoda doing that was confirmed in the RotS junior novel, while the contents of the deleted Maul/Savage vs. Sidious fight is not confirmed to have actually had happen, even if it fits.


So you think it's the "Junior Novel" which canonizes that scene from the script?

Nah it's the movie script that canonizes that scene. Anything in the script that isn't contradicted by the events of the movie is said to be canon. Heck people even argue anything in the movie novelizations not contradicted by the on screen events is canon.

But certainly not having the time or budget to fit a certain scene in the film (or in an episode) doesn't render it non-canon.

Similarly the Maul vs Sidious in the Palace was in the scripted fight, and (presumably) not something the animators just pulled out their ass.

Originally posted by Stigma


Yoda > Sidious in sabers, confirmed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So you're saying the portion of the fight that happened inside the Palace is left a mystery to us, even though we have it?

I think it's canon unless it's contradicted by the events which made it to the episode, or unless the creators say something like "we deleted that because in the end we thought it didn't make sense". Again, unless it's confirmed to be canon and it's a deleted scene it's non-canon. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree or something.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So you think it's the "Junior Novel" which canonizes that scene from the script?

Nah it's the movie script that canonizes that scene. Anything in the script that isn't contradicted by the events of the movie is said to be canon. Well, I haven't read the RotS script, but I was always under the assumption the junior novel canonized it. And I'm sure there has to be inconsistencies/retcons to the RotS script, right? I didn't know everything that was in the script was canon. Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck people even argue anything in the movie novelizations not contradicted by the on screen events is canon. Didn't Leland Chee say something along those lines?

The whole Grievous/Shaak Ti schpiel that was deleted was also confirmed to be canon recently, iirc.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Again, unless it's confirmed to be canon and it's a deleted scene it's non-canon. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree or something.



Ok. Fair do's.

I just think it's the other way around. That missing/deleted scenes are canon unless we're specifically told they're not canon.

Or unless of course they contradict and couldn't possibly fit into the onscreen events (e.g. the Anakin vs Ventress deleted scene from TCW movie). There's just nowhere that could fit into the events of the final movie.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
The whole Grievous/Shaak Ti schpiel that was deleted was also confirmed to be canon recently, iirc.


Yes I also remember someone did confirm that recently.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The whole Grievous/Shaak Ti schpiel that was deleted was also confirmed to be canon recently, iirc. This is a truly wondrous revelation.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The whole Grievous/Shaak Ti schpiel that was deleted was also confirmed to be canon recently, iirc.

Don't think so.

Originally posted by Q99
Have I mentioned how much I dislike the use of the word 'ragdolled' for whenever someone force-pushes someone else?


Being pushed rarely does more than buy time for the other person, and can happen despite power disparities as no-one has force defense up all the time. A Padawan could force throw Sidious if the latter didn't actively defend against it.

+1

watch?v=8l-44bYXlxE

My favourite scene in the whole movie, hands down.

Even if the Shaak Ti scene is barely being confirmed as canon, that would only indicate that deleted scenes aren't automatically canon, otherwise we wouldn't need such confirmation for the scene to barely be considered canon.

The unfinished animated scene in the palace is non-canon, as it has so many contradictions. Savage is right behind Maul when Sidious exits the throne, whereas in the episode he's running out after several exchanges were made between Sidious and Maul, indicating Savage was far behind. Also, Savage was straining to keep Dooku and Ventress in his grip despite his rage amp, whereas no such strain was shown from Maul while holding Sidious. The power difference between Sidious and Dooku+Ventress is much bigger than between Maul and Savage. Plus that, it contradicts how lopsided the fight between Sidious and the bros was finally intended to be by Filoni, and the official websites statement that Sidious never wavered from his position of superiority. Being held against one's will only to be saved by chance (hanging chandelier) right before having a lightsaber nearly shoved through the stomach, is not only wavering from superiority, it's nearly losing a fight.

Also, I haven't watched all the Rebel episodes, so can someone tell me how powerful the Inquisitor is supposed to be compared to Kanan? From what I've seen, they seem pretty close, except the Inquisitor comes of as more refined in TK, similar to Dooku vs Anakin.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The whole Grievous/Shaak Ti schpiel that was deleted was also confirmed to be canon recently, iirc.

Impossible. Shaak Ti is scene in the Jedi Council chambers after that. Not to mention her talking to Anakin in the canon ROTS novel.

As for this deleted scenes debate I'm fairly certain its stated in the original canon policy that deleted scenes are G-canon unless they contradict the movie (like Shaak Ti's death). I don't know where the new canon stands on this but that is what it used to be.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Even if the Shaak Ti scene is barely being confirmed as canon, that would only indicate that deleted scenes aren't automatically canon, otherwise we wouldn't need such confirmation for the scene to barely be considered canon.


Well that would kind of need confirming seen as the EU had her survive ROTS.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, I haven't watched all the Rebel episodes, so can someone tell me how powerful the Inquisitor is supposed to be compared to Kanan? From what I've seen, they seem pretty close, except the Inquisitor comes of as more refined in TK, similar to Dooku vs Anakin.


Until the very last episodes he was much more powerful and skilled than Kanan in both Sabers and the Force.

In fact he actually was "toying" in their first fight given the number of times he has Kanan but keeps talking instead:


k3p2tsmhvag

^ First at 0:48, then Definitely at 1:11-1:21 and possibly again at 1:48.

As for the force pin, after being ragdolled by the Inq at 2:16, Kanan completely freezes the Inq (2:42), then pins him to the ceiling, then puts him down himself (but yes he struggles although he did it one handed and he had just been knocked out).



Anyway by the final episodes Kanan catches up to Inquisitor in Sabers, but he was never as powerful as him in Tk seen as the Inq has consistently controlled Kanan with Tk throughout the season, even in the final episodes.


Originally posted by Lord Stark


As for this deleted scenes debate I'm fairly certain its stated in the original canon policy that deleted scenes are G-canon unless they contradict the movie (like Shaak Ti's death). I don't know where the new canon stands on this but that is what it used to be.

Oh yeah just remembered!

It was shown in TCW the way it was depicted in the ROTS deleted scene:

zJZ5ikpqMGU

^ 0:20-0:23

Sidious still wins.

DP is jealous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well that would kind of need confirming seen as the EU had her survive ROTS.


Exactly my point. Deleted scenes have never been treated as absolute canon. They have the potential to be canon. That's why we see Shaak Ti running around in the EU, whereas the last we seen of Fisto was being slaughtered at the hands of Sidious (not including back stories obviously), because the canonicity of both scenes were never treated the same.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Until the very last episodes he was much more powerful and skilled than Kanan in both Sabers and the Force.

In fact he actually was "toying" in their first fight given the number of times he has Kanan but keeps talking instead:


k3p2tsmhvag

^ First at 0:48, then Definitely at 1:11-1:21 and possibly again at 1:48.


Thanks.

That clears it then. The Inquisitor has never shown to be leagues above Kanan in power, only vastly more skilled and refined. His most solid defeat of Kanan was the episode that introduced Tarkin, then two episodes later he beats the Inquisitor when more focused and lets go of his fear. Kanan's mindset is what held him back. Again, similar to Anakin vs Dooku. Kanan proved he had it in him to beat the Inquisitor with clarity of mind and Focus. Therefore comparing them to Sidious vs the bros is faulty. Sidious is just miles ahead of both of the bros combined according to Filoni, and they weren't even close to ready to beat Sidious, not even a maxed rage Maul despite Sidious holding back considerably.

DP's anti-Sidious campaign is getting silly. Vader's a bad mofo, but he's Sidious's b1tch in both old and nu!canon.

Comparisons between the Inquisitor & Kanan and Sidious & the Zabraks are inappropriate. The Inquisitor's advantage was skill and technique compared to the rusty Kanan, an advantage that vanished by the end of the season. Sidious was leagues ahead of Maul and Savage per Word of God and feats.

Ti's death could also theoretically be at the hands of Anakin during Operation: Knightfall.

I feel like a part of the Inquisitor's edge was psychological. Kanan was never confident in his abilities and the Inquisitor Don Moch's him constantly, mocking his skills and intimidates him with his unconventional lightsaber that Kanan doesn't know how to fight. That's why Kanan's ultimate victory comes from him ceasing to be held back and being afraid and he's able to see his opponents weapon for the weakness that it is, rather than fear it.

Huh, for some reason I kept thinking Vader destroyed an AT-ST, not a freaking AT-AT! That's pretty good considering it's canon Vader. In the old canon an AT-AT was capable of surviving an orbital bombardment from Star Destroyers lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP's anti-Sidious campaign is getting silly.





Only you could see this as an "anti-Sidious" campaign.


FYI Ares was the first to relate the Sidious vs Maul and Opress Force Pins to Kanan catching Inquisitor off guard.

But as per usual you feel the need to direct your love of Sidious via attacks on me.




Originally posted by The_Tempest
Comparisons between the Inquisitor & Kanan and Sidious & the Zabraks are inappropriate. The Inquisitor's advantage was skill and technique compared to the rusty Kanan, an advantage that vanished by the end of the season.


Nah Kanan was always Inquistor's b**** in a Tk contest. That didn't change in the last episodes. In Kanan's final victory he simply didn't give Inquisitor a chance to Utilize Tk too much - hence the constant shooting every time there was distance between them. Even then Inq does floor Kanan with Tk at one point.

As for the their first fight, you can clearly see Inquisitor is miles ahead of Kanan at that point in Sabers and in the Force. Whether his massive advantage in the Force is down to focus or training is frankly irrelevant. After all Sidious's own Power advantage over Maul is down to decades of Force mastery. There's really nothing to say for sure that Sidious has more natural potential than Maul (although I wouldn't rule that out).


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious was leagues ahead of Maul and Savage per Word of God and feats.




As usual no one's denying that, yet you feel the need to keep bringing that up.


Originally posted by Nephthys
the Inquisitor Don Moch's him constantly, mocking his skills


Yeah but he does that when he has Kanan on the ropes. So it just seems like he was Toying with Kanan tbh.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah Kanan was always Inquistor's b**** in a Tk contest. That didn't change in the last episodes. In Kanan's final victory he simply didn't give Inquisitor a chance to Utilize Tk too much - hence the constant shooting every time there was distance between them. Even then Inq does floor Kanan with Tk at one point.

As for the their first fight, you can clearly see Inquisitor is miles ahead of Kanan at that point in Sabers and in the Force. Whether his massive advantage in the Force is down to focus or training is frankly irrelevant.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Ti's death could also theoretically be at the hands of Anakin during Operation: Knightfall.

Always in motion the future is. Not to mention some of that stuff was symbolic. Kenobi and Mace never lead a battle charge against a battalion of Clone Troopers (as badass as that would have been).

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The whole Grievous/Shaak Ti schpiel that was deleted was also confirmed to be canon recently, iirc.

That is either BS or someone drunk in a position of authority decided to create a giant plothole in ROTS.

I coulda swore Bantha or Joker made this exact thread and it also got a lot of posts

I don't recall making this before.

I think that one was Palps vs Revan and Malgus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That is either BS or someone drunk in a position of authority decided to create a giant plothole in ROTS.

TCW Season 6, Yoda sees her death in his vision.

Isn't Shaak Ti seen after the Battle of Coruscant in RotS on the Council or something? If she was killed by Grievous on the Invisible Hand that wouldn't make sense.

She was likely killed by Anakin during Operation: Knightfall.

Seems likely. Anakin kills her in the same way as well.

MOST LIKELY SIDIOUS.

TOO FAST, TOO SKILLED

Team