Maul, Savage and Ventress vs. HoT, Darach and Zallow

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Stigma
All at their peak.

Neutral setting.

No amp/prep time.

Who wins?

Col. Valerian
Team HoT.

carthage
Team 1 solidly

Col. Valerian
Pfft. HoT is far superior to any of his opponents.

Stigma
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Pfft.
Intriguing argument.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
HoT is far superior to any of his opponents.
oops....

Col. Valerian
It's not entirely possible.

Originally posted by Stigma
Intriguing argument.

I know, right?




WTF?

You seriously think Maul or Ventress are superior to the guy who defeated Vitiate...?

Col. Valerian
Edit - double post, sorry.

Trocity
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You seriously think Maul or Ventress are superior to the guy who defeated Vitiate...?

Maul landed a kick on Sidious, which is > HoT beating Vitiate.

carthage
Vitiate was also weakened, and Vitiate is an inferior duelist to Maul. Maul is the better duelist easily, no one the Hero has beaten with a lightsaber compares to Kenobi, Windu, Qui Gon, or Grievous. Hero gets stomped in a duel

Col. Valerian
Lol, you're seriously going to base your assessment on a mere kick? You have to be kidding me.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Lol, you're seriously going to base your assessment on a mere kick? You have to be kidding me.

I genuinely find the notion of taking any of that fight serious after Sidious had both Savage and Maul choked out hilarious tbh

When you have both dead to rights and decide to let them go and "**** it, let's duel", you're not taking either all that seriously

Selenial
"A mere kick" that was a good enough placed kick to pass through the best Sith duelist in history?

Mauls saber duel with Sidious puts him above some of the greatest duelists in history as it is. Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto were the finest swordsman of their generation, a generation of 10,000 Jedi. They get a lot of shit for their loss to Sidious, but the fact is Sidious is simply that good, and Maul actually kept up with him, even if it was only for 10-20 seconds...

ChaosTheory123
No, seriously, he could have killed them at any time

Their necks were as good as broken before a duel even started

What about any of that scene showed that Sidious took Maul seriously? :hmm

Selenial
The final duel, after Savage died it was clear neither of them were holding back.

Sidious getting tired of his shit and using the force to subdue him is proof enough that he was trying.

ChaosTheory123
You're honestly going to need Filoni to outright say Sidious was taking Maul seriously at any point in that fight for me to buy it

Its possible, but his general ability to end it at any time he wanted, as shown by his opening move and his fairly casual usage of TK through out the entire duel tells me he was being vindictive more than anything

Nothing concrete exists in the scene that I remember that'd tell me otherwise :hmm

Stigma
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You seriously think Maul or Ventress are superior to the guy who defeated Vitiate...?
Apparently, I'm just going to reiterate the point mentioned above.
But yeah, Maul is a superior duelist going by feats. He might very well be more powerful in the force too.

PS. You clearly need to grasp the current trends on this forum, that are based more on logic and evidence than ever before imho.
E.g. nexus feats are no longer treated as representative of one's power, more in depth analysis is made in relation to the circumstances of fights etc.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Selenial
"A mere kick" that was a good enough placed kick to pass through the best Sith duelist in history?

Mauls saber duel with Sidious puts him above some of the greatest duelists in history as it is. Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto were the finest swordsman of their generation, a generation of 10,000 Jedi. They get a lot of shit for their loss to Sidious, but the fact is Sidious is simply that good, and Maul actually kept up with him, even if it was only for 10-20 seconds...


Sidious was toying with them. It's so clear it truly baffles me how people take this fight seriously. He wasn't even trying hard, could've ended the duel at any moment. He was having fun. That's it.

And even if he wasn't, and Maul did manage to land the kick, so what? He landed a kick, he didn't even come close to winning. By a long, long shot.

'Greatest duelists in history' is a massive overstatement. They were amongst the finest swordsmen of the Order. It's definitely something, but not enough to put them remotely above or in the same level as HoT.

In the words of Satele Shan: "You are our greatest warrior... And our best hope."
Herself included. Someone who managed to battle a powerful (though not peak) Malgus evenly and actually put him on his ass. What does that tell you about HoT's prowess as a warrior? Pretty high praise, I'd say. The Knight story revolves around the notion that the main protagonist is a Jedi who mainly focuses on mastery of lightsaber and TK. He certainly kills a good number of powerful Sith throughout the story, Vitiate included. Nothing suggests Maul is as good a combatant as HoT overall, even as deadly and skilled as he is.

Originally posted by Stigma
Apparently, I'm just going to reiterate the point mentioned above.
But yeah, Maul is a superior duelist going by feats. He might very well be more powerful in the force too.

PS. You clearly need to grasp the current trends on this forum, that are based more on logic and evidence than ever before imho.
E.g. nexus feats are no longer treated as representative of one's power, more in depth analysis is made in relation to the circumstances of fights etc.

There is more than enough evidence to suggest HoT is a powerhouse. It's unbelievable to me that you'd say it's very possible for Maul to be more powerful in the Force.

Stigma
As impressive as Maul's duelist with Sidious was (in its final moments), it needs not to be the only "trumph card" to showcase his dueling skills.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It's unbelievable to me that you'd say it's very possible for Maul to be more powerful in the Force.
I know.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Stigma
PS. You clearly need to grasp the current trends on this forum, that are based more on logic and evidence than ever before imho.
E.g. nexus feats are no longer treated as representative of one's power, more in depth analysis is made in relation to the circumstances of fights etc.

Eh

You guys do ok

Baffled by plenty of your precedents (seemingly no powerscaling between skills, leading the wild fluctuations in stats ), but so long as its not spacebattles (where perfect defense is taken literally and hyperbole seems to run rampant) I don't really feel the need to prod them :hmm

Stigma
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Eh

You guys do ok

Baffled by plenty of your precedents (seemingly no powerscaling between skills, leading the wild fluctuations in stats ), but so long as its not spacebattles (where perfect defense is taken literally and hyperbole seems to run rampant) I don't really feel the need to prod them :hmm
wut?

Your point is that SK has crazy feats? :maybe

carthage
Beating Vitiate has nothing to do with his skills as a lightsaber duelist thumb up. We have no idea how he faired in a duel with Malgus either, Maul has fought evenly with Mace Windu, fought evenly with General Grievous, beaten Obi Wan Kenobi, killed Jinn and Bondara who were considered two of the greatest Swordsmen produced by the Jedi order, and was considered the most skilled Sith in history compared to Hero beating primarily featless individuals



Can you give me any indication why his "power" would mean anything more than the large gap in dueling ability between the two? He was throwing around a weakened Vitiate, apart from that he collapsed Tunnels which Maul has done as well as sending Kenobi flying. People always try to make Hero sound 00ber, when his telekinetic feats aren't much better than Ventress's

As for the match Ventess is superior skillfully to Zallow (though it'd be a good fight), and Darach would lose to either Ventress or Savage who have fought superior opponents to either.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Stigma
wut?

Your point is that SK has crazy feats? :maybe

Nah

Think dude, he has the power to manipulate a Star Destroyer, yet he can only throw an amount of power able to level a decent sized building into his Force Lightning? :maybe

Sidious has the same issue, where his Force Lightning is explicitly his talent, yet the TK feats he powerscales to are hilariously above anything most Lightning feats in the franchise ever accomplished sans Starkiller's clone powering up that one Turbolaser in FUII and probably Orbalisk Bane vs that Drexl and its riders.

Stigma

ChaosTheory123

SIDIOUS 66
ChaosTheory lol.

@Cart, good post.

ChaosTheory123
By all means, give me your perspective

A laugh doesn't tell me much other than you think something is funny :maybe

ILS
I'm personally not sold that the Jar'kai fight between Sidious and Maul was easy for Sidious, based on the idea that he could have snapped Maul's neck with TK at any time.

That's one theory, which isn't supported by anything, but then there's also the theory that Sidious wanted a challenge and decided to duel Maul?

Then, you can contrast Sidious' demeanour between how he was when he was cackling at Maul and Savage earlier, and how he scrunches his face up and shit in his last fight with Maul. Visually, he was exerting more effort and focus than earlier on. And he wasn't laughing any more.

Not saying Sidious was giving it his all the same way Maul clearly was, but I think claiming that, in the final portions of that fight, that Sidious still wasn't finding it difficult at all, is pushing it.

Worth noting that the Maul who had just seen Savage butchered by Sidious, is probably a notch or two above the pay grade of standard Maul. In a no-circumstances bout he doesn't have the same emotions to draw on. So the feat isn't transferable without scaling it down.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by ILS
I'm personally not sold that the Jar'kai fight between Sidious and Maul was easy for Sidious, based on the idea that he could have snapped Maul's neck with TK at any time.

That's one theory, which isn't supported by anything

His general ability to throw TK at them at his leisure and his general causal raw power advantage over them is really all the support you need to conclude he could have killed them at any time



Plausible

Not concrete, which is my main gripe, but I never denied plausibility.



And this is a fair point

Doesn't quantify how much more Sidious was exerting himself for us, but it does suggest he was taking it more "seriously"

Then again, Sidious kind of suffers the same issue Saitama of One Punch Man does, not to the same extent (skill gap I imagine in the series in general fails to be that large between high tier duelists), but using him as a stable measuring stick is shaky at best given his general characterization.

Trocity
Yeah he was amped by rage.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
By all means, give me your perspective

A laugh doesn't tell me much other than you think something is funny :maybe


Yes, your theories. You major in physics or something? Just curious.

BTW, I agree with you on Sidious vs Maul and Savage, though.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, your theories.

Not exactly saying my interpretation of, well, anything, is concrete

You're free to conclude what you want, just do this shit for fun

Because fictional explosions interest me for some bizarre reason I'll never understand



Hell no

I majored in Psychology, though I could have gone with Engineering given I like the subject matter too.

Figured I'd force myself to get the highest degree (in a subject I like granted) I could to maybe not be as lazy (because a bachelors is worth its weight in toilet paper :maybe).

Don't let anyone tell you I am either... apparently ****ers on Mangafox have tried claiming I am :lmao

You're not going to see anything from me any harder than... high school physics, maybe some first semester if you push it.



Yeah, I can see what they're saying, I just don't feel its concrete enough to base an argument from is all.

Sinious
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123


Yeah, I can see what they're saying, I just don't feel its concrete enough to base an argument from is all.

thumb up

ILS
So do people actually believe that Sidious is capable of Agen-Kolarizing, or something close to that, even a rage-amped Maul, because they "don't feel it's concrete enough"?

Alright, then.

carthage
I'd love to see an argument for someone Hero has fought in saber only combat that compares to Windu/Grievous/ or Kenobi.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by ILS
So do people actually believe that Sidious is capable of Agen-Kolarizing, or something close to that, even a rage-amped Maul, because they "don't feel it's concrete enough"?

Alright, then.


A rage amped Maul? No. Probably not even regular Maul. However, it shouldn't be over looked that Sidious wasn't fighting to kill while fighting off a blood lusted beast who was trying to kill him. It's hard to determine how much effort Sidious was putting in that last round. All we know for sure is that he was holding back tremendously. Even his kick was very casual and served more as a means to push Maul back rather than a brutal attack.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by ILS
So do people actually believe that Sidious is capable of Agen-Kolarizing, or something close to that, even a rage-amped Maul, because they "don't feel it's concrete enough"?

Alright, then.

First?

Are you suggesting he's worse than Fisto if you're bringing up Kolar?

Second?

The point of debate is to string together a net of logic with as few holes in it as possible (unless you're a politician, then its no holds barred lying through your teeth to sway the masses :maybe). "Not concrete" is tantamount to a margin for error in your conclusion if you base anything off that shaky premise.

Do I want to believe Maul would fall as fast as Fisto hypothetically? No, I think the idea is stupid. Can I prove that it's stupid?

That's the problem.

You can believe something all you want, doesn't always hold up in light of presented evidence.

However?

Play some connect the dots, just because the easy route isn't safe doesn't mean something more airtight doesn't exist to argue.

SIDIOUS 66
I mean, Sidious wouldn't use his blitzing speed on someone he's not trying to kill.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Selenial
The final duel, after Savage died it was clear neither of them were holding back.

In the novel the exact opposite is clear. Sidious starts to speed up and Maul finds himself unable to keep up.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
You're honestly going to need Filoni to outright say Sidious was taking Maul seriously at any point in that fight for me to buy it.

Filoni says the exact opposite of this on multiple occasions.

AncientPower
Issue here is that rage Maul has very nearly killed Sidious before via blitz. Maul even getting close to being a competent opponent for Sidious is enough for me to say he is better than any Jedi of the time besides Vaapad-amp Mace and Yoda.

RexCloneWarsMVS
HOT can do this alone.

Revanchiste
Team 2...

AncientPower
Originally posted by RexCloneWarsMVS
HOT can do this alone.

pile

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Issue here is that rage Maul has very nearly killed Sidious before via blitz. Maul even getting close to being a competent opponent for Sidious is enough for me to say he is better than any Jedi of the time besides Vaapad-amp Mace and Yoda.


Sidious has never fought Maul with an aggressive demeanor. He goads him in a rage and then allows Maul to attack with everything he has, meanwhile Sidious isn't trying to kill him. People often argue that trying not to kill your opponent isn't holding back, but they are wrong, as you are holding back immensely and limiting your range of targets and options. In Sidious's case, he'd be limiting the speed of his saber strikes as well. It's impossible to go all out while limiting yourself to that extent.

That's just a strict saber duel, and not even mentioning Sidious holding back his force powers. Not to lowball Maul, but it's hard to judge his abilities based on his fight against Sidious when Sidious is holding back and not willing to kill. It's like judging ROTJ Luke's force defenses based on his survival against Palpatine's lightning attacks.

McP
Originally posted by carthage
Team 1 solidly

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
In the novel the exact opposite is clear. Sidious starts to speed up and Maul finds himself unable to keep up.


Novel's not Canon.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Filoni says the exact opposite of this on multiple occasions.


Filoni says that Sidious never once took Maul seriously at any point in the entire fight?

I must have missed that quote.


Originally posted by ILS

Worth noting that the Maul who had just seen Savage butchered by Sidious, is probably a notch or two above the pay grade of standard Maul. In a no-circumstances bout he doesn't have the same emotions to draw on. So the feat isn't transferable without scaling it down.


I would say it was just a Peak performance from Maul tbh. Kind of like when Kenobi fought off Maul and Opress that was a Peak performance by Kenobi.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


That's just a strict saber duel, and not even mentioning Sidious holding back his force powers. Not to lowball Maul, but it's hard to judge his abilities based on his fight against Sidious when Sidious is holding back and not willing to kill.


Maybe. But even under those circumstances I wouldn't expect Fisto, Tiin or Kolar to perform as well as Maul did.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by carthage
Beating Vitiate has nothing to do with his skills as a lightsaber duelist thumb up. We have no idea how he faired in a duel with Malgus either, Maul has fought evenly with Mace Windu, fought evenly with General Grievous, beaten Obi Wan Kenobi, killed Jinn and Bondara who were considered two of the greatest Swordsmen produced by the Jedi order, and was considered the most skilled Sith in history compared to Hero beating primarily featless individuals

Except it has to do with his skills. He used his lightsaber to defeat one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history. You don't get to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history having bad or only good lightsaber skills. I mean, come on. And there's not even proof about how much exactly was Vitiate weakened when the fight took place. You could argue DE Sidious was also weakened when defeated by the twins, but he's still considered a powerhouse and Luke is credited for his defeat.
Yes, HoT never dueled Malgus. But Satele did, and she's our point of reference. She admits HoT is the best warrior in the Order, an Order that includes her. She dueled Malgus and they were pretty close in terms of skill, it's only logical to assume that HoT is at least equal to Malgus saberwise, considering he's even better than Satele.
And you're incorrect. Maul is considered the 'deadliest Sith apprentice in history'. Keyword: apprentice. Not the same.




He was the greatest warrior of his time. A time that includes various powerful Jedi and Sith. That should be a good indication of his power. Maul has never come close to defeating someone of Vitiate's caliber, and he does get beat by the best Jedi and Sith of the PT.



You yourself say Ventress vs. Zallow would be a good fight. How is HoT, who is by far superior to Zallow, not going to crush Ventress...?

Stigma
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You don't get to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history having bad or only good lightsaber skills.
Why?

One of the most powerful force users like Kyp Durron, Starkiller or Nihilus come to mind.

Nephthys
Kyp and Starkiller have great saber skills and Nihilus is an unknown in that respect due to lack of info.

Stigma
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kyp and Starkiller have great saber skills
mmm

I wouldn't call SK great by whatever, :maybe:

Any saber feats for Kyp?
Originally posted by Nephthys
and Nihilus is an unknown in that respect due to lack of info.
Exactly.
And the info we have on Vitiate is that he was disarmed by Meetra's saber throw.
How embarassing, how embarassing.

carthage
You're missing the point he didn't outduel him and Vitiate wasn't even holding a lightsaber correctly let alone lacks any showings of a lightsaber duel. Vitiate is powerful, but that has nothing to do with his lightsaber abilities in which Hero and Vitiate simply don't compare



Maul lived in the era of the most skilled Jedi in terms of feats, hardly anyone in the TOR era compares to Windu/Grievous/Kenobi in terms of lightsaber skill and Maul beat/fought evenly with those individuals. Hero's best feats aside from beating Vitiate (which has nothing to do with lightsaber skill/dueling), have all been against individuals who are mostly accolades/featless. There is no reason to believe Hero would beat Maul via skill



His accolades speak differently:



How does being an "apprentice" negate his skill?



Again feel free to post some of the TOR Jedi/Sith with comparable feats to Mace Windu, Obi Wan Kenobi, General Grievous, or Qui Gon. That list would be woefully short, and again Hero never beat Vitiate in a duel (which is exactly how he'd have to engage Maul). Given that's primarily how both of them fight and Maul has the better showings/comparable telekinetic feats, there isn't much reason to believe Hero can beat someone who reguarly engages the most Skilled of Jedi. Also yeah he did engage a high tier Sith he even drove Sidious's guard down while amped by Dark rage, that's superior to any showing of skill shown by Hero as a standalone feat.





Zallow is probably a tier beneath Ventress overall but has a strength advantage, and Ventress likewise is still more skilled than Hero/has comparabe telekinetic showings as well. She held off Anakin/Obi wan at once and forced Windu to "use all of his skills", Hero isn't beating her in a duel at all either.

Stigma
Nice thumb up

Nephthys
Both those quotes say that Mauls "one of" the most skilled. Not "considered the most skilled Sith in history" like carthage claimed.

Originally posted by Stigma
mmm

I wouldn't call SK great by whatever, :maybe:

Any saber feats for Kyp?

Exactly.
And the info we have on Vitiate is that he was disarmed by Meetra's saber throw.
How embarassing, how embarassing.

He was matching Shaak Ti, who even a decade before that point was considered one of the finest bladesbeasts in the order. And he defeated Vader, who is also highly skilled.

I'm pretty sure Kyp has feats such as matching other council members in duels, who have other feats of their own that indicate they're incredibly gifted swordsmen.

So.... we can't call him a bad duelist due to lack of information. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
And Sidious got killed by getting chucked off a ledge by a dude with one hand. Caedus was almost killed by Ben. Grievous got murked by a gungan. Getting caught off-guard doesn't suggest incompetence.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by carthage
Maul lived in the era of the most skilled Jedi in terms of feats, hardly anyone in the TOR era compares to Windu/Grievous/Kenobi in terms of lightsaber skill and Maul beat/fought evenly with those individuals. Hero's best feats aside from beating Vitiate (which has nothing to do with lightsaber skill/dueling), have all been against individuals who are mostly accolades/featless. There is no reason to believe Hero would beat Maul via skill

You never did offer a rebuttal to that last semantics discussion on skill :hmm

More devil's advocate, maybe get you thinking :maybe

I'll have some fun either way.

Now, let's think, what makes Windu, Dooku, or Yoda stand out in the mythos as skilled?

Is it the ability to cut through hordes of characters? The precision to deflect a hail of blaster bolts? Maybe the power to block force lightning from close quarters?

Nah, those things are accomplished by many other people in the franchise with nigh indistinguishable indication of which display was more impressive in terms of raw feats.

They just happen to have the best accolades which distinguishes them from the rest.

Now, am I saying the TOR group is as impressive?

No

I'm saying equating accolades to "featless" (as indicated by that "/"wink is hilariously ****ing stupid when accolades are the most stable form of determining skill outside of A>B>C logic feats.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by carthage
You're missing the point he didn't outduel him and Vitiate wasn't even holding a lightsaber correctly let alone lacks any showings of a lightsaber duel. Vitiate is powerful, but that has nothing to do with his lightsaber abilities in which Hero and Vitiate simply don't compare

No, you're missing the point. HoT and Vitiate duel, they don't engage in a Force battle. That's clear primarily because when the cut-scene starts, Vitiate is on one knee and HoT is holding his lightsaber, ignited as he walks towards him. What, you think he just managed to block every Force attack Vitiate threw at him? You don't think that during the fight Vitiate didn't even ignite his lightsaber? That's not at all what the cut-scene suggests. And actually, you can see his lightsaber hanging on his belt, besides the fact that during the actual fight he wields his lightsaber...





While it is true that Maul lived in an era when the Jedi Order hosts a handful of the most powerful to ever live, it would be foolish to discredit HoT's feats because of this. We've seen Sith and Jedi during the ToR era were also quite powerful, and he is the best of all. You're also ignoring the rest of my argument. I will repeat: Satele Shan herself said HoT is the best warrior in the Order. An order that includes herself. She dueled Malgus, one of the most powerful and skilled Sith, and they were pretty close in terms of skill and combat prowess. This means that HoT is at the very least as good as Malgus, considering he's significantly superior to Satele in raw power and skill. Heck, even Vitiate himself acknowledges HoT is 'immensely powerful'.





- Thanaton's immensely powerful Storm (which btw allows him to fly)
- Nox's complete and uber domination of Thanaton
- Vitiate defeating a Sith Lord when he was 10 years old; 2nd to only Sidious in sheer raw power and Force prowess
- HoT ragdolling one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history after defeating him in an all-out battle
- Wrath crushing Darth Baras, who in turn has shown to be a master of Force lightning and formidable lightsaber combatant
- Wrath slaughtering the Beast of Marka Ragnos as a mere acolyte (Terentatek are regarded as Jedi killers, btw)
- Khem Val acknowledging Nox's power, a big accolade considering he served as Tulak Hord's assassin and speaks greatly of his previous master, while initially thinking Nox was trash compared to him
- Barsen'thor showing he can TK the shit out of indestructible metallic, massive blast doors, casually flinging a huge hunk of metal across a significant distance, defeating seriously amped Sith Lords, etc
- Nyriss turning herslef into ashes with her own lightning; outdueling and dominating Scourge and Meetra simultaneously (which serves as an indication of how powerful the most powerful of the Dark Council actually were)

I'm sure there are more feats I can list, those are just top of my head. I'm not saying these guys are as good as the best guys in the PT/OT era, but they do have impressive feats. They're not pushover/featless Sith and Jedi that haven't done squat, like you make them out to be.
He drove Sidious's guard down while Sidious was unprepared; he never expected Maul to do such a thing. Had he been prepared, it would've never happened. Vitiate was more than prepared for HoT, yet he still fell.




You don't make sense. How can you say Zallow vs. Ventress would be a good fight and say Ventress is more skilled than HoT when HoT is undoubtedly more powerful and skilled than Zallow? And if you claim Zallow is a tier beneath Ventress then it wouldn't exactly be a good fight... Yeah, well, Obi-Wan 'held off' Savage and Maul simultaneously, but he isn't regarded or seen as the superior combatant. Would you say Ventress is actually a better duelist than Anakin?

Sinious
thumb up

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.