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BATTLE TAKES PLACE ON NEUTRAL GROUND

Krayt

Krayt overwhelms him.

lol cart

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt overwhelms him.

its true bro

Koon shits

I didn't know he was into that sort of thing

Originally posted by carthage



Did I miss something that'd make Plo vs a major sith lord even in question?


The biggest dueling feat I can recall him having is holding off Ventress with one arm, but, like, he didn't win or press her, he held her off for a bit.

His force powers aren't sufficient either, Krayt can bare-handed block 'electric judgement.'

^You missed nothing aside from him fighting on par with Savage (and losing via distraction). Krayt demolishes.

With the help of numerous clones*

Originally posted by ILS
Koon shits

What does this even mean? Why do you hate Plo so much?

This topic sums up carthage better than any other words can, IMO.

Originally posted by carthage
What does this even mean? Why do you hate Plo so much? Nah I meant Koon shits on Krayt u scrub

Sith Lord comfortably

Carthage, can you explain why you think this is a good fight? Because I honestly do not get it.

I think he is at least similarly skilled, not sure how well he'd fare against Krayt's force abilities.

Originally posted by carthage
I think he is at least similarly skilled, not sure how well he'd fare against Krayt's force abilities.


I don't. Krayt plows over most of his opposition in melee, including groups of masters. Even back in the day he was close to Kenobi- or to put it another way, A'Sharad Hett would be a good fight against Koon in a saber-only battle. Krayt's stronger.

If there's a saber incident that'd put Koon in Krayt's saber tier, again, I don't know it. Neither his showing vs Asajj or Savage suggest they're close.



Force ability wise, Krayt has stronger offense and defense and some hax powers.

Krayt needed dark transfer to beat Cade.

Plo is more skilled and refined than Cade. He's a major jedi master council member, and he's strong.

Ant, shut up lol. You wouldn't even begin to know how to compare the two.

Ah, Plo Koon. Nobody can stand against his might. His power is so immense he shits midichlorians and eats Sith for breakfast. And bacon. Krayt has no chance, he gets destroyed by just looking at Plo. #RespectPlo

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Krayt needed dark transfer to beat Cade.

He *did* beat Cade with Dark Transfer, which is not to say that's the only way he could've win.



Darth Nihl's a major sith inner circle member, and he's strong.

Antares Draco is the leader of the Imperial Knights, and he's strong.

Neither is stronger than Cade.

Cade has complete Jedi and Sith training, and spent 6 months hunting and killing sith between the main series and War. He's got tons of combat experience.

...not a fair matchup. Poor Plo is getting Pwned.

Originally posted by Q99
He *did* beat Cade with Dark Transfer, which is not to say that's the only way he could've win.


Why is this easy for you to get when it applies only to Krayt?



Originally posted by Q99
Darth Nihl's a major sith inner circle member, and he's strong.

Antares Draco is the leader of the Imperial Knights, and he's strong.

Neither is stronger than Cade.

Cade has complete Jedi and Sith training, and spent 6 months hunting and killing sith between the main series and War. He's got tons of combat experience.


When it comes to Krayt, arguments such as "so and so is strong and refined, and fancy title/term" suddenly become invalid.

Still, though, Plo has faced more powerful opponents than Cade has (not including Krayt of course), and is quite possibly the most powerful council member right under Yoda, Windu and Skywalker. And this is within an order in it's prime.

But, yes, Plo has no chance.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Krayt needed dark transfer to beat Cade.

Really? Krayt was virtually annihilating Cade in every facet; I daresay he would have been just as successful ramming him through with his second lightsaber as he would grabbing him with his hand.

EDIT: I realize you were just making a point, but I'm putting that out there.



More refined? Probably, but then again, Cade's defeated several opponents that were much more refined than he.



True, but Cade's also fared better.



I'm having reservations about Plo Koon being superior to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Though I'm guessing you just forgot about him, which would legitimize the claim.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I realize you were just making a point, but I'm putting that out there.


Then you should realize I'm aware of all of this.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
More refined? Probably, but then again, Cade's defeated several opponents that were much more refined than he.


I was making a point with this too. I made a claim that begs for proof without backing it up, something Q99 consistently does with characters not involving Krayt.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
True, but Cade's also fared better.


Not really. Plo's held Ventress off despite a wounded arm. And his performance against Savage was exceptional, given Savage's history of plowing through the saber defenses of majority of his opponents or causing them to be unbalanced through the strength of his saber attacks, and overpowering them with force attacks.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm having reservations about Plo Koon being superior to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Though I'm guessing you just forgot about him, which would legitimize the claim.


Well I did say possibly, but no I didn't forget about Kenobi. I don't find him as impressive as some do, though he can be underrated by non-PT fans. He just has a lot of exposure, but nothing to indicate he is conclusively above other council members, especially Plo. Plo's force feats impress me more, and they aren't far apart in sabers. Obi Wan has been overpowered by Savage rather casually and consistently, even when backed by Anakin. Plo held his own against Savage in just one shot, adapting to the physical advantages Savage holds over most jedi much quicker than Kenobi was able to, which wouldn't be the case if Obi Wan was his superior.

That's not what I was saying. Plo's definitely had impressive showings against stronger opponents, but Cade a lot of the time pretty much crushes his opposition. Thus even if they're weaker, the feats can still potentially be just as good depending on how Cade's opponents stack up to Ventress and Savage.



What Force Feats in particular?



Depends on how you define "far". Kenobi's displayed better physicals in every area, and performed better against more skilled opponents; Grievous and Dooku in particular.



Savage has also been overpowered by Kenobi even when backed by Maul. I personally find that to be the more consistent one, really, considering that Savage was operating far above his status quo in the fight you're referring to--unless you're implying Savage can ragdoll Dooku under normal circumstances of course.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well I did say possibly, but no I didn't forget about Kenobi. I don't find him as impressive as some do, though he can be underrated by non-PT fans. He just has a lot of exposure, but nothing to indicate he is conclusively above other council members, especially Plo. Plo's force feats impress me more, and they aren't far apart in sabers. Obi Wan has been overpowered by Savage rather casually and consistently, even when backed by Anakin. Plo held his own against Savage in just one shot, adapting to the physical advantages Savage holds over most jedi much quicker than Kenobi was able to, which wouldn't be the case if Obi Wan was his superior.

Damn that made me rethink stuff.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's not what I was saying. Plo's definitely had impressive showings against stronger opponents, but Cade a lot of the time pretty much crushes his opposition. Thus even if they're weaker, the feats can still potentially be just as good depending on how Cade's opponents stack up to Ventress and Savage.


So comparable? That's fair. Though some of the opponents he's swiftly and easily defeated have also given him good challenges on other occasions.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
What Force Feats in particular?


He's manipulated escape pods, and broke off separatist ship attachments (TCW, Malevolence arc). In another episode, with the help of Ahsoka, he's held together a stardestroyer which was on the verge of tearing apart. If you google Plo's feats, a gallery link from Silver 2467 should appear, which has a picture of Plo demolishing an entire cave/mountain by simply clinching his fist, among other showings. And, of course, his various other environmental manipulation feats such as electric judgment and, well, freezing creeks (lol).



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Depends on how you define "far". Kenobi's displayed better physicals in every area, and performed better against more skilled opponents; Grievous and Dooku in particular.


Dooku wasted Kenobi, so not much of a feat for him. Regardless, Plo's never faced them. Judging by his performance against Savage and quickly adapting to Savage's style and his strength, whereas it took Obi Wan try after try of getting beat down just to finally adapt to Savage's advantages, I'd say Plo is more than able to duplicate Kenobi's showings. Especially if you note Plo's disadvantage against Ventress, who is shown to be Kenobi's equal.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Savage has also been overpowered by Kenobi even when backed by Maul. I personally find that to be the more consistent one, really, considering that Savage was operating far above his status quo in the fight you're referring to--unless you're implying Savage can ragdoll Dooku under normal circumstances of course.

I wouldn't. Maul has overpowered Kenobi consistently and could have killed him on numerous occasions (backed by some source Intrepid provided when he was here), and their fight in the cave had the bros underestimating Kenobi and only trying to capture him, with Maul still possessing those bulky and awkward legs. Not to mention, that Kenobi's injuring of Savage owed more to Savage's sloppy stance, and Kenobi's focus, taking advantage of the obvious opening Savage left, otherwise Kenobi was on the verge of being overpowered. He never overpowered Savage. He did hold him off before that particular sequence of the fight, but that was due to the gap in skill, and Kenobi finally adapting to Savage's advantages, which took several shots.

On Toydaria, Savage held the upper hand against both Kenobi and Skywalker while not trying to fight, but trying to kidnap the king.


Originally posted by Sinious
Damn that made me rethink stuff.


What stuff?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What stuff?

Where Koon stands. I still have Kenobi above him but I always thought the gap was quite big between them.

Though I wouldn't really take Kenobi+Anakin combat showings that seriously. They're just so inconsistent.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So comparable? That's fair. Though some of the opponents he's swiftly and easily defeated have also given him good challenges on other occasions.

Not really; Cade improved throughout his story arc. While Talon gave him trouble in the early-mid Legacy stories, by the end she was outmatched by her own admission.

The only inconsistent outlier was in Claws of the Dragon, but Talon was injured.



I know of these; really the question was what Force Feats that Kenobi couldn't do.



Holy shit, I've never heard of this. Link?

EDIT: Oh, it was only a very small portion of the cruiser's bridge; not all that much bigger than a Shuttle, really.



That was a very small cave, a far cry from a mountain. IIRC he only sealed the cave's entrance, also.

Again, Kenobi's done better than this. Casually bringing down huge trees, holding massive slabs of metal aloft, manipulating Durge's starship, deflecting telekinetic blasts from Anakin, BFR'ing Grievous, telekinetically inducing massive waves, tossing speeders, all are excellent feats.



Not in sabers he didn't.



Only in earlier stories.



Consistently? TPM notwithstanding, he's only had the upper hand against Kenobi once in a duel.

Also, Intrepid's assertion there was a bit of a stretch considering the material itself.



Not really. The only time in that fight Savage was in an advantageous position was when Kenobi tried to tackle him.

That might not have been his brightest move.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Holy shit, I've never heard of this. Link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qRyq2NRt2M&t=16m30s

It's shitty quality, and it's sped up slightly, but it should give you what you're looking for.


It looked like just part of the bridge to me tbh.

Uh, yeah. Just the bridge, lol.

*the tip of one of the bridges

Just the tip...

Please, that's what they all say.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ant, shut up lol. You wouldn't even begin to know how to compare the two.

Oh yeah, because I totally didn't read Legacy (link to my Cade Skywalker thread) and Fate of the Jedi (link to my FOTJ threads), or help Aurbere with his Plo Koon thread and read it over three times (link to Aurbere's thread).

Your credibility of saying Plo > Kenobi places you around Fated Xtasy level based on your arguments for it. You keep on digging a hole bro, not much more I can say.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In another episode, with the help of Ahsoka, he's held together a stardestroyer which was on the verge of tearing apart.

Lost credibility.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh yeah, because I totally didn't read Legacy (link to my Cade Skywalker thread) and Fate of the Jedi (link to my FOTJ threads), or help Aurbere with his Plo Koon thread and read it over three times (link to Aurbere's thread).

Your credibility of saying Plo > Kenobi places you around Fated Xtasy level based on your arguments for it. You keep on digging a hole bro, not much more I can say.


I said you couldn't even begin to compare them, which you can't.

Gaining knowledge of something is easy. Comparing and contrasting abilities is something I have yet to see you be good at. You don't even know the difference, though, so... However, I see what you did with your last Revan respect thread; you took SKILLS approach of analyzing Revan after I had told you how convincing SKILLS argument was.

Is Xstacy being used as an insult? Because you do realize he has shown to be your superior in comparing/contrasting character feats. That's the honest truth.

Dayum.

Do you want to test that theory?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, I see what you did with your last Revan respect thread; you took SKILLS approach of analyzing Revan after I had told you how convincing SKILLS argument was.

What, lol? I don't recall making a thread supporting Dooku to ease you into liking Revan. The last thread I made was the Darth Revan Power Thread, which was entirely based on my ideas with the help of Aurbere. I haven't spoken to Skillz in a month. In fact, I totally forget he even debated with you until you brought it up in the EU section.

Try again.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lost credibility.

Indeed. Ahsoka and Plo only held up a portion of a ship's bridge roughly the size of a small shuttle. I pointed that out in my respect thread for Plo Koon.

So, this.

http://media3.giphy.com/media/62PP2yEIAZF6g/giphy.gif

---

SWTOR's head debater just admitted S66 has no credibility. Fascinating.

Legends been saying that for ages though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://media3.giphy.com/media/62PP2yEIAZF6g/giphy.gif

---

SWTOR's head debater just admitted S66 has no credibility. Fascinating.


Don't know about head debater, but SKILLS is without a doubt the most skilled TOR debater so far. I don't even know who Aurbere is lmao. His opinion is irrelevant.

Anywho, your obsession with my credibility aside, yes I'd like to see you make an analysis on the topic. Other than being a pool of knowledge for Revan (BTW, did you finish your advertisement video for your biggest Revan respect thread ever!!!), prove your good at other things, well, besides also being a "forced servant."

Go, I'm rooting for you.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really; Cade improved throughout his story arc. While Talon gave him trouble in the early-mid Legacy stories, by the end she was outmatched by her own admission.

The only inconsistent outlier was in Claws of the Dragon, but Talon was injured.


You may be right. For now I'm only going off of memory, but I recall him easily removing Talon rather casually a couple of times early on, then suddenly having the fight of his life.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
I know of these; really the question was what Force Feats that Kenobi couldn't do.


Other than perhaps the tree feat, I don't see how any of the feats you listed are quite as good as Plo easily manipulating space vehicles, and tearing off and pushing a ship attachment. The feat with Durge's ship is quite good but his moving it wasn't as profound as Plo's manipulation of the space transports.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Holy shit, I've never heard of this. Link?


Not as impressive as I remembered, TBH, but good, considering it was about to fall apart.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
That was a very small cave, a far cry from a mountain. IIRC he only sealed the cave's entrance, also.


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2683179-new_picture__21_.jpg

I didn't mean to suggest it was similar to mount Everest in size, but caves are usually small mountains with openings. Even in the scan, it's referred to as a mountain. It also seemed to be the entire cave. Regardless, the entrance alone is big enough to hold several men. Plo collapsing the entire area just by clinching his fist is quite impressive and isn't different than demolishing a small building. He's not even fully unleashing himself. I'd need to see Kenobi's tree feat in full context to assume he is capable of doing the same with the same casualness as Plo.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
deflecting telekinetic blasts from Anakin


No, they stalemated in a direct force shove match, which is quite inconsistent, considering the power gap, unless Anakin's mindset hindered his force power too.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
BFR'ing Grievous

Any powerful jedi should be capable of this provided they have opening and Grievous isn't all over them.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
telekinetically inducing massive waves


Direct application of TK requires more power and concentration than pushes/waves. Plo was able to directly apply TK with enough force to crumble a large entrance, so unleashing massive waves should be for him.




Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not in sabers he didn't.


In season 6 he did. Not to mention Ventress, who is around Kenobi's equal, couldn't even gain the upper hand against a drugged and blind Dooku despite the help of two other nightsisters.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Only in earlier stories; late Kenobi is a good bit stronger, judging from feats.


What feats? His last fight against Ventress was pretty late in the war, and she could actually have killed him had Anakin not been there. He's only shown to do better than her against Savage because Savage's strength advantage over her is greater than it is over Kenobi.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Consistently? TPM notwithstanding, he's only had the upper hand against Kenobi once in a duel.


In sith hunters, Maul could have killed Kenobi with the force alone while fighting off another jedi. True, the area was stated to be strong with the dark side, but I think that was due to the bros presence. Regardless, Maul easily gripped Kenobi in the cave fight but just tossed him aside. Then when he decided to end the fight he through Kenobi with enough force that part of the cave collapsed, disarming and trapping Kenobi. Then, In The Lawless, he disarmed and choked Kenobi with the force, again. Maul has a noticeable force advantage.

All that considered, Intrepid's source was pretty accurate. And if Maul's going to hold back his greatest advantage and turn down opportunities to kill Obi Wan then that's pretty solid evidence that he's not going to try his absolute hardest in a saber fight. That wouldn't even make sense unless he's testing his own skills as a saber duelist. Not to mention, his saber victory over Kenobi was pretty convincing, considering he hadn't picked up a saber in over a decade, and wasn't yet accustomed to huge awkward legs.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really. The entirety of the fight was an ungraceful tacklefest, there was little to no actual dueling involved. Even then Savage wasn't in any kind of advantageous position.


Except for easily tossing them around even when attacked from behind. It showed a large gap in strength, which is what Kenobi was having a hard time adapting to, as shown in their one on one, when Savage disarmed him.

Adapting is indicative of saber skill, and Plo adapted to all of Savage's advantages in a single round.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Don't know about head debater, but SKILLS is without a doubt the most skilled TOR debater so far. I don't even know who Aurbere is lmao. His opinion is irrelevant..

SWTOR as in SWTOR Forums.
Selenial is also among the top, top dogs there.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


What feats? His last fight against Ventress was pretty late in the war, and she could actually have killed him had Anakin not been there.


That was no more than mid way through TCW.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Adapting is indicative of saber skill, and Plo adapted to all of Savage's advantages in a single round.


Plo Koon got kicked to the floor and had his mask ripped off in that fight. Savage's strength got the better of him so Koon didn't adapt to anything. He simply lost.

Kenobi has never definitively lost to Opress. Savage has tossed Kenobi around a few times, but he's never definitively beaten Kenobi without help.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Not in sabers he didn't.




He was soundly defeating Kenobi in a Saber match up in S6. Kenobi clearly required Anakin's help to survive that fight. Whilst Dooku also of course trashed Kenobi with TK in ROTS.

So I'm not sure why people keep comparing Kenobi to Dooku or giving Obi-Wan any credit based on his fights against the Count, unless you count that probably non-canon game cut scene where early TCW Obi-Wan apparently defeats Dooku by himself (that game's always a good way to start a riot ).

Give Kenobi credit for his fights against Maul, Opress, Skywalker or even OT Vader. But there's honestly no credit to give him for his fights against Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was soundly defeating Kenobi in a Saber match up in S6. Kenobi clearly required Anakin's help to survive that fight. Whilst Dooku also of course trashed Kenobi with TK in ROTS.

So I'm not sure why people keep comparing Kenobi to Dooku or giving Obi-Wan any credit based on his fights against the Count, unless you count that probably non-canon game cut scene where early TCW Obi-Wan apparently defeats Dooku by himself (that game's always a good way to start a riot ).

Give Kenobi credit for his fights against Maul, Opress, Skywalker or even OT Vader. But there's honestly no credit to give him for his fights against Dooku.
I wouldn't consider it soundly defeating. Dooku was only gained distance with kick and hip throw and he was able to do it because Kenobi was on the offensive, which is not really his thing.

Anyway, what game was that? Imho it should be possible with favourable circumstances, where Kenobi would be able to capitalize on his strengths.

Kenobi and Skywalker did so bad in their fight with Dooku on Oba Diah. They were virtually tripping over each other; their synergy was atrocious which Dooku capitalized on.

Kenobi manipulated a larger space vehicle.



If he's moving it fast enough to crush Super Battle Droids, I'd say that's pretty profound.

Also, what's profound about manipulating a pod when there is no gravity to work against?



I'm not talking about that instance specifically; the novel details that Kenobi deflected telekinetic blasts from Anakin during the off-screen portion of the battle as well.



By wave I mean like, a wave. With water.



Well, Season 6 isn't RotS--where we see Kenobi performing better than the Count, if anything.



Irrelevant, I was referencing dueling prowess. And claiming that Maul is significantly more hesitant to kill Kenobi than vice versa, or pulling his punches, is a little odd. Especially because the quote in question only really said that Maul wanted to make Kenobi suffer. I even recall it was in reference to the events on Mandalore specifically, which were very different circumstances than previous encounters, though I could be wrong.



Hardly, he lost solidly.

Originally posted by Arhael
I wouldn't consider it soundly defeating. Dooku was only gained distance with kick and hip throw and he was able to do it because Kenobi was on the offensive, which is not really his thing.

Kicks and physical hits are part of the combat. In any case the point being there's nothing there to say Obi-Wan performed well in those fights.

When defending Obi-Wan's prowess people should stick to his better fights IMO- Maul, Opress, Anakin.

I just think Dooku has Obi-Wan's number in a way most other combatants don't.



Originally posted by Arhael
Anyway, what game was that? Imho it should be possible with favourable circumstances, where Kenobi would be able to capitalize on his strengths.


This one:

?v=7h_wnWlk518


Personally seems pretty unlikely to me considering it was early CW. Not long after AOTC.

Also it apparently contradicts the Clone Wars story it's based on according to some posters here, but I've not bothered to check that for myself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

This one:

?v=7h_wnWlk518


Personally seems pretty unlikely to me considering it was early CW. Not long after AOTC.

Also it apparently contradicts the Clone Wars story it's based on according to some posters here, but I've not bothered to check that for myself.

Yup directly contradicts the episode. Kenobi is seen on the bridge of his cruiser with no evidence of a fight during the Malevolence. +His cruiser couldn't be attacked because it was in Hyperspace.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kenobi manipulated a larger space vehicle.


When?



Originally posted by NewGuy01
If he's moving it fast enough to crush Super Battle Droids, I'd say that's pretty profound.


True.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, what's profound about manipulating a pod when there is no gravity to work against?


Because the mass of the object is still the same. Gravity only plays a major roll when lifting an object against the force of gravity First. For instance, bench pressing 250 is a lot harder than pushing it. Now lifting those objects on a planet with gravity similar to earth's would be a better feat no doubt, but that doesn't take away from Plo easily manipulating such objects with incredible ease.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
By wave I mean like, a wave. With water.


Oh, ok. Yeah, that's probably one of the most refined uses of TK in the mythos.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, Season 6 isn't RotS--where we see Kenobi performing better than the Count, if anything.


There isn't much of a time gap between the two confrontations. In the movie, Kenobi was in the fight for only some seconds, and while Dooku was on the fleeting end early on in the duel, I'd say that was more of Anakin's physical strength taxing him, with Dooku having a hard time simply cutting Obi Wan to pieces because of the performance Anakin alone was putting up, making Obi Wan's presence serving as nothing more than a mere distraction for Dooku to get rid of.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Irrelevant, I was referencing dueling prowess. And claiming that Maul is significantly more hesitant to kill Kenobi than vice versa, or pulling his punches, is a little odd. Especially because the quote in question only really said that Maul wanted to make Kenobi suffer. I even recall it was in reference to the events on Mandalore specifically, which were very different circumstances than previous encounters, though I could be wrong.


In every single encounter, Maul wanted Obi Wan to suffer rather than simply kill him. You can choose to ignore all the instances I provided, but they're there regardless. Maul's intent was for Obi Wan to suffer as he did regardless of the way it was done. And if I remember correctly, the source stated Maul turned down 'numerous' opportunities, which would imply more than his one time capture of Kenobi on Mandalore. Even in their first encounter, Maul waited for an unconscious Obi Wan to wake before he decided to torture him. Maul's actions and his own word in sith hunters also indicate as much: he never wanted to kill Kenobi outright.

My point is, Maul never fully unleashed himself on Kenobi as to preserve his life in order to cause him to suffer before killing him. And If Maul is going to hold back a quick killing blow and his major advantage over Obi Wan (the force), why should I assume he would go all out in a strict saber duel? What would be the purpose?

There's nothing odd about my claim when Maul himself made it very clear on numerous of occasions. That was Maul's obsessive intent.

Also, there is nothing to indicate Kenobi would go to such extremes to keep Maul alive as Maul did, let alone hesitate on killing him.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hardly, he lost solidly.


At most, he lost fair and square, but he certainly did much better against him in one shot than Kenobi did in about three. The fight was quite even until Plo lost.

Plo Koon was able to force push some boarding ship pretty easily. If you calculate it then his force push would be equal to a 3 Kiloton explosion.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Plo Koon was able to force push some boarding ship pretty easily. If you calculate it then his force push would be equal to a 3 Kiloton explosion.


Link?

Aside from feats, Plo just seems to be depicted as one of the wisest and most powerful of the council. Or, well, that's the vibe I get from his portrayal.

https://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22256&goto=next

Originally posted by The Merchant
https://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22256&goto=next


Yes, that's the feat I was referring to. I thought your post read "crush."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Link?

Aside from feats, Plo just seems to be depicted as one of the wisest and most powerful of the council. Or, well, that's the vibe I get from his portrayal.

If you had education on his character you would know your speculation is actually supported.

"Level-headed and unflappably calm, Jedi Master Plo Koon is among the wisest in the Jedi Order."
―Star Wars Databank: Plo Koon

"Plo Koon is a member of the Jedi High Council and a Jedi General in the Clone Wars. Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, with awesome fighting ability, strong telekinetic powers and superb piloting skills.
―Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia

---
Of course, I don't expect you to know of this stuff. Hasn't been the first time you debated material you knew little about.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


Aside from feats, Plo just seems to be depicted as one of the wisest and most powerful of the council. Or, well, that's the vibe I get from his portrayal.

That's always the impression I got as well. And was hoping TCW would have given him some nice feats considering he was a recurring character on the show but no such luck.

Another piece of EU evidence of Plo's prowess compared to other Jedi is Shadow Hunter where Maul says he wants to face/ defeat one of the great Jedi warriors mentioning Plo and Mace.

But the main piece of evidence is that he just looks so damn cool Lol.

TCW did give Plo a good feat, although I don't know if calculations are accepted on these boards or not.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If you had education on his character you would know your speculation is actually supported.

"Level-headed and unflappably calm, Jedi Master Plo Koon is among the wisest in the Jedi Order."
―Star Wars Databank: Plo Koon

"Plo Koon is a member of the Jedi High Council and a Jedi General in the Clone Wars. Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, with awesome fighting ability, strong telekinetic powers and superb piloting skills.
―Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia

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Of course, I don't expect you to know of this stuff. Hasn't been the first time you debated material you knew little about.


I know little about it yet the sources support my argument perfectly. Thanks, BTW.

Who would you say has better TK feats: Plo or Krayt?

The question is for you alone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's always the impression I got as well. And was hoping TCW would have given him some nice feats considering he was a recurring character on the show but no such luck.

Another piece of EU evidence of Plo's prowess compared to other Jedi is Shadow Hunter where Maul says he wants to face/ defeat one of the great Jedi warriors mentioning Plo and Mace.

But the main piece of evidence is that he just looks so damn cool Lol.




He does have good feats, but I get what you're saying.

Don't Krayt-hate.

He doesn't have much, tho.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I know little about it yet the sources support my argument perfectly. Thanks, BTW.

Who would you say has better TK feats: Plo or Krayt?

The question is for you alone.

Speculation can be right at times, yep. For you, the luck is rare.

Krayt - his ragdolling of Nihl is one of the greatest domination displays in the mythos.

Also, I really love this false illusion that you are my superior. It makes me giggle. Silly boy.

I seriously doubt Koon is even in Krayt's league with TK.

He's not.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Krayt - his ragdolling of Nihl is one of the greatest domination displays in the mythos.


LMAO @ one of the best in the mythos. It isn't even Krayt's best, let alone one of the best in the mythos.

Yeah, you're only good for giving out quotes. Stick to that.

Trust me, Ant has more talents than that bouyo!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
LMAO @ one of the best in the mythos. It isn't even Krayt's best, let alone one of the best in the mythos.

Yeah, you're only good for giving out quotes. Stick to that.

Interesting. What is this? You jumping to incorrect conclusions again? Disappointing.

Domination as in overpowering other Force users with a demonstration of a major disparity in power.

Darth Krayt hurling Darth Nihl around with one hand telekinetically, and then plastering him to a wall in that the powerful Sith can't even move is extremely impressive.

Is it more impressive than say, what Luke did to Caedus or what Sidious did to Dooku? No. That doesn't take away from the feat, especially in comparison to Plo.

I really love the irony though. I presented that particular argument intentionally - it was crafted by Skillz.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Trust me, Ant has more talents than that bouyo! are u implying that he's a talented "wrestler"?

Originally posted by The Merchant
TCW did give Plo a good feat, although I don't know if calculations are accepted on these boards or not.

Which feat have you done calculations on?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
it was crafted by Skillz.


I see.

SKILLS is rather good to you. It is one of Krayt's better feats with TK, but he has other showings to draw from to better indicate where he stands in terms of TK.

I doubt SKILLS would call it one of the greatest displays in the mythos. You took an answer from SKILLS and stretched it. Your fault.

It sounds to me like something Skillz would say, having personally discussed Krayt with him on numerous occasions.

It's not really among of the best TK displays in the mythos, nor is it Krayt's best, but it's definitely enough to solidify him as a high-tier telekinetic--and it's well above what Koon has demonstrated himself to be capable of. Krayt's TK isn't even one of his primary focuses, anyway.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's not really among of the best TK displays in the mythos, nor is it Krayt's best, but it's definitely enough to solidify him as a high-tier telekinetic--and it's well above what Koon has demonstrated himself to be capable of.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I doubt SKILLS would call it one of the greatest displays in the mythos. You took an answer from SKILLS and stretched it. Your fault.

Stretched it? LOL. I minimized it - a lot, too. Try again, slave.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Kenobi and Skywalker did so bad in their fight with Dooku on Oba Diah. They were virtually tripping over each other; their synergy was atrocious which Dooku capitalized on.
They never impressed me combativly as a duo in TCW. They job as a duo against people they perform better against on ther own.

They never impressed me combatively as a duo ever.

Fvckin PT h8er

Well unless they do some cool shit in books or comics they've always underperformed or outright tripped over each other in the cartoons and movies.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well unless they do some cool shit in books or comics they've always underperformed or outright tripped over each other in the cartoons and movies. they worked extremely well as a team in the RoTS novel in their fight against dooku.

Yeah but in the movie they're a pack of bumbling clowns.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah but in the movie they're a pack of bumbling clowns. Seriously?

This is the dude who whines about his favourites being lowballed?

Hilarious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well unless they do some cool shit in books or comics they've always underperformed or outright tripped over each other in the cartoons and movies.


The ep 3 novelization does refer to them as a team with great synergy, but really, their best feats are *always* solo, like others note.

Obi-Wan goes more offensive to keep up with Anakin, which reduces his defense. Anakin doesn't let loose as much.


Both of them together end up having trouble with Savage or Ventress, when Kenobi on his own can fight Savage and Maul together.

Yeah, Kenobi & Anakin need to take pointers from Luminara & Barriss on how to work as a team. :P

Originally posted by Q99
when Kenobi on his own can fight Savage and Maul together. Which he only managed due to briefly catching them off-guard and the claustrophobic environment
-Shadow Conspiracy

Also, inb4 non-canon

Originally posted by ILS
Which he only managed due to briefly catching them off-guard and the claustrophobic environment
-Shadow Conspiracy


Sure, but it shows how with clever fighting he was able to fight two major badasses. Simply 'being aggressive in a smallish environment unexpectedly' gave him a flat-out edge against Savage and Maul combined (and also goes to show how sometimes things go very much against expected odds sometimes).

When he's with Anakin, that cleverness doesn't really come up.


And it's not just that. Obi-Wan vs Ventress is a fight he can hold his own in just fine... even though duo vs Ventress isn't all that overwhelming to her.

Originally posted by ILS
Seriously?

This is the dude who whines about his favourites being lowballed?

Hilarious.

Well you can see it in the fight, Obi-Wan gets in Anakin's way and then when they try for a saberlock they have to stretch around each other and can't generate much power. Obi-Wan is easily seperated and when he rejoins he's instantly taken out again. It's not a good showing. Obi-Wan does particularly poorly. He tries to flank Dooku but he ends up just wasting time and deflecting some pot-shots from him instead of putting Dooku under any pressure.

Then Anakin pulls it off solo. So clearly he's more effective than they are as a team. Their uber-teamwork has always been an informed attribute.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but it shows how with clever fighting he was able to fight two major badasses. Simply 'being aggressive in a smallish environment unexpectedly' gave him a flat-out edge against Savage and Maul combined (and also goes to show how sometimes things go very much against expected odds sometimes).

When he's with Anakin, that cleverness doesn't really come up.


And it's not just that. Obi-Wan vs Ventress is a fight he can hold his own in just fine... even though duo vs Ventress isn't all that overwhelming to her. Sure, it shows cleverness on Kenobi's part. But then it could also be considered another example of how individuals perform better than duos. Maul and Savage, in open combat, have both faired better against Kenobi solo than together. Stick them together, with Savage's admittedly limited experience as a dueling partner, in poor circumstances, and Kenobi should by all rights do well against them.

When he and Anakin fought Ventress I recall her running away from them until they had her on her knees. Outside of that there's the Savage fight where they were being pushed back (which could partly be due to the small corridor environment, and partly due to the fact this was the Savage who just got done choking Dooku and Ventress). With the Dooku/Ventress examples, though, Kenobi tends not to do well due to a disparity in Force power more than anything else. Remove that and they really are an unstoppable duo.

Originally posted by ILS
Sure, it shows cleverness on Kenobi's part. But then it could also be considered another example of how individuals perform better than duos. Maul and Savage, in open combat, have both faired better against Kenobi solo than together.


It's definitely dependent on teamwork skills, though. Savage and Maul were able to hold off Sidious together, and were destroyed individually.

Kenobi and Qui-Gon held off Maul, while Maul killed Qui-Gon.


Against Bane, Sarro Xaj and Johun was a hinderance to Xaj, but Johun was a boon to Rashka Lsu.

Grievous + even two magnadroids is much more dangerous than even just Griev.


Overall, two tends to be better than one. Sometimes the results are slower, but the outnumbered person tires out faster and even if they take out one, can still be vulnerable due to using up energy (Once Kenobi was down, the fight against Dooku became one on one, but Dooku still had used up the energy of facing two). It's only some specific cases where it's a hinderance.

I honestly can't see Plo Koon taking more than 2/10 (and I honestly doubt that he could win that many times against Krayt.)

They were being toyed with together. The only point in which Sidious was taking the fight seriously was right at the end, after Savage was dead. And even then, it's dubious if he was really putting in maximum effort. The Sidious fight is also a poor example because the circumstances are clearly different from when they fought Kenobi.

Having said that I agree, two is better than one. Same goes for Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo, evidently.

Every fight has circumstances, ILS. Having the ability to use the environment to your advantage is part of combat; the setting could have just as easily favored the brothers if they played it as well as Kenobi did.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Every fight has circumstances, ILS. Having the ability to use the environment to your advantage is part of combat; the setting could have just as easily favored the brothers if they played it as well as Kenobi did. 1. Considering how outclassed they were, they wouldn't even have the opportunity to consider taking an environmental edge. They were too busy focusing on surviving.

2. Suggest one environmental edge they could have taken in a massive, open throne room, or the even larger environment they entered after that?

Originally posted by ILS
1. Considering how outclassed they were, they wouldn't even have the opportunity to consider taking an environmental edge. They were too busy focusing on surviving.

2. Suggest one environmental edge they could have taken in a massive, open throne room, or the even larger environment they entered after that?

I was talking about the Kenobi fight, bro. Where they weren't outclassed, and in a much less open environment.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I was talking about the Kenobi fight, bro. Where they weren't outclassed, and in a much less open environment. So your point is ultimately pointless, then, because there's no environmental advantage to be had in such a cramped cave. The best you could hope for is the brothers waiting outside the cave for Kenobi to come out and face them openly, which from a storytelling standpoint, isn't feasible.

In other words, Kenobi had an edge that they lacked in that instance. It's as simple as that. He's smart, but he was also fortunate.

Originally posted by ILS
So your point is ultimately pointless, then, because there's no environmental advantage to be had in such a cramped cave. The best you could hope for is the brothers waiting outside the cave for Kenobi to come out and face them openly, which from a storytelling standpoint, isn't feasible.

In other words, Kenobi had an edge that they lacked in that instance. It's as simple as that. He's smart, but he was also fortunate.

Well they could have just collapsed the cave on him. Or if they wanted a capture, ganged up with the Force to ragdoll him. Or if they wanted to use sabers, maybe Savage could form a saber wall while Maul goes on the offensive from the other side and drives him into it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well they could have just collapsed the cave on him. Or if they wanted a capture, ganged up with the Force to ragdoll him. Or if they wanted to use sabers, maybe Savage could form a saber wall while Maul goes on the offensive from the other side and drives him into it. All of which is prevented by plot, save for the capture scenarios of course. It's not exactly a foreign concept for superior Force users not opting to abuse their advantages. It's called PIS.

Yeah. It's especially egregious considering Maul did ragdoll Kenobi somewhat in the duel. He just didn't do anything with it. Like, jesus Savage, you could have just stepped up and tapped him on the leg of something.