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Who would win?

Canon Vader could do it based on his performance against AT-AT's. EU Vader stomps.

Either clear imo

Darth Vader turns Palpatine's Ambush on Kessel propaganda into reality.

One force user, even Vader, cannot take on 50 Jedi at once, not even close. He loses. He starts out slaughtering, then gets tired, then small attacks creep in, then he loses while there's still many Kanan still standing.

I actually have to agree with Q.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Vader turns Palpatine's Ambush on Kessel propaganda into reality.




Originally posted by Q99
One force user, even Vader, cannot take on 50 Jedi at once, not even close. He loses. He starts out slaughtering, then gets tired, then small attacks creep in, then he loses while there's still many Kanan still standing.

Tulak Hord defeated an army of 1,000 Jedi. Vader absolutely demolishes.

Originally posted by Lord Stark

Tulak Hord defeated an army of 1,000 Jedi. Vader absolutely demolishes.


No, Tulak Hord was decisive in battles where 1,000 Jedi were killed



There is a huge difference between killing a lot of force users in battle, i.e. one or a few at a time when they also have other stuff to worry about and get just as tired as you, and where you even have people to guard your back- and having them mob you and only you with nothing at your back, just your one blade having to defend against lightsaber after lightsaber while you're completely surrounded, and for this to go on for a very long time.

No-one can handle that.

Heck, Plagueis almost died to 30-some Maladian non-force using assassins, when he had Sun Guard with him and other targets with him to draw fire and was still saved in the end by Palpatine. This opposition is both larger and more individually dangerous than that.

Is Vader more than twice Plagueis?

Originally posted by Q99
No, Tulak Hord was decisive in battles where 1,000 Jedi were killed



There is a huge difference between killing a lot of force users in battle, i.e. one or a few at a time when they also have other stuff to worry about and get just as tired as you, and where you even have people to guard your back- and having them mob you and only you with nothing at your back, just your one blade having to defend against lightsaber after lightsaber while you're completely surrounded, and for this to go on for a very long time.

No-one can handle that.

Heck, Plagueis almost died to 30-some Maladian non-force using assassins, when he had Sun Guard with him and other targets with him to draw fire and was still saved in the end by Palpatine. This opposition is both larger and more individually dangerous than that.

Is Vader more than twice Plagueis?

^Wait really? And here I thought my man Tulak had a major feat under his belt. And also I chalk that up to PIS. Why can't he just TK them.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I actually have to agree with Q.

Originally posted by Q99
No, Tulak Hord was decisive in battles where 1,000 Jedi were killed

He also "broke the siege singlehandedly" according to Khem Val. An army which would have included over a thousand Jedi. Now whether this is true or not I dunno.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
^Wait really? And here I thought my man Tulak had a major feat under his belt.

It's still major, like ares834 said he broke the siege, so probably at one point he leapt into enemy lines and cut a bloody swath.

It's just not, like, absurdly over the top.




They were supposed to be near-mandalorian badass.




Because he was killing them with the force left and right, but there's was over 30 of them! You can't do everything at once. It's not like the first time a strong force user has had trouble with a lot of dangerous non-force users.

Also, TK is much less good for killing than lightning. People often get up from being TKed. Lightning or saber is a better kill method.

Considering Dooku got caught by 50 pirates, I'm guessing 50 Jedi is way too much even for Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Considering Dooku got caught by 50 pirates, I'm guessing 50 Jedi is way too much even for Vader.

Pfft, that was season 1 Dooku. By season 3, after the likes of Savage Opress can flatten swarms of droids {including droidekas}, Dooku would probably mushroom tap each of those clowns.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pfft, that was season 1 Dooku. By season 3, after the likes of Savage Opress can flatten swarms of droids {including droidekas}, Dooku would probably mushroom tap each of those clowns.


Well even in Season 5 an injured Savage and Maul were shot down by the same 50'ish pirates. So not entirely sure the show's stance changed much on that front.


Depending on context and positioning of the combatants however I'm sure those 50 pirates could be toast under different circumstances.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pfft, that was season 1 Dooku. By season 3, after the likes of Savage Opress can flatten swarms of droids {including droidekas}, Dooku would probably mushroom tap each of those clowns.

Droids fall apart to pushing much more readily than living beings.


And Dooku is one character who's skill and power likely did not change at all between seasons, he'd maxed out.

50 weaklings that, unlike an AT-AT, all have force barriers and decent Jar-Kai skills. Vader would lose.

I think it depends upon the environment, if he can bottleneck them through hallways or sone kind of cave system, he just slowly but surely kills them. If it's wide open then yeah it'd be reaching for anyone short of Darth Sidious to pull it off.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well even in Season 5 an injured Savage and Maul were shot down by the same 50'ish pirates. So not entirely sure the show's stance changed much on that front.


Depending on context and positioning of the combatants however I'm sure those 50 pirates could be toast under different circumstances.
Not to mention blaster bolts moving faster than the eye can track.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I think it depends upon the environment, if he can bottleneck them through hallways or sone kind of cave system, he just slowly but surely kills them. If it's wide open then yeah it'd be reaching for anyone short of Darth Sidious to pull it off.


There is a pretty huge difference between 50:1 and 1-2:1 repeatedly thanks to terrain, yea. The latter... *may* be doable, but would be totally exhausting even for Vader!

Going with the guy that can play telekinetic ping pong with Starkiller and his Clone, tank about 40 seconds worth of his Clone's Bloodlusted amped Lightning without fatal injury and generally dwarfs the raw power of a clown that's generously considered an ant compared to the feats he's displayed in the EU proportionately.

PIS is the sole reason you don't see a character of Vader's caliber wrecking hordes of characters as weak as Kanan at a time.

Compare their feats, the contest becomes a ****ing joke

So much as a casual force wave ends it with a cloud of red mist resulting when you take away the PIS

No

Really

His best feat is lifting a rock formation 30-40 meters or so tall at about 3-5 m/s with Ezra's help compared to playing ping pong with the guy that altered the trajectory of a Star Destroyer moving at hypersonic speeds

Is the sense of scale here that warped? :hmm

Kanan's solo due to numeros

You make a persuasive argument as usual~

By PIS do you mean Force Defenses?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
By PIS do you mean Force Defenses?

No

Force Defense is legit

I'm talking pretending a guy that struggles to lift a rock formation with help has the force defensive energy to tank any of Vader's shit is a laughably sad delusion on the level of saying Spider-Man has the feats to legitimately can Firelord :maybe

He has 2 feats worth noting, opening that Blast Door (though possibly electronic manipulation) and levitating that Rock Formation in episode 8/9 (whenever the **** Yoda made his voice cameo)

Both required Ezra (though its easy enough to say he contributed more than half the power given he's currently stronger)

Outside that? Just a bunch of low end kilojoule feats for tossing ****ers around

Or TL;DR?

Star Wars, much like Marvel (funny given they're both owned by Disney now), suffers from shitty writing and can't deal with it when characters that have disparate showings and portrayal face off

Do I expect Kanan, upon Vader hitting him with TK in story to explode?

Nah, but I don't exactly take it as a legitimate feat barring the assumption the difference in power between relatively generic/average and amazingly strong is super low and we're splitting hairs discussing who can kick such and such's ass here :maybe

Isn't it implied that Vader and even more so Sidious are so far beyond Jedi it isn't a contest by Filoni?

Sort of if you take his level shit at face value

You're better off appealing to feats as power levels taken in a linear sense are kind of bullshit (hello continental farmer with shotgun in dragon ball for example)

And by feats (damaging that AT-AT) he would turn Kanan by his current showings and powerscaling into red mist

The magnitude of energy difference between them is hilarious to consider, and Kanan has shit feats as it stands right now

And that's just talking Disney

Have you ever considered that fiction isn't limited by real-life logic? I'm sure if it was there would be a lot more red mist going around...

Originally posted by ILS
Have you ever considered that fiction doesn't appease real-life logic? I'm sure if it did there would be a lot more red mist going around...

If I considered that, this hobby becomes moot and there's no actual point trying to discuss it nor any common grounds for comparing who's feats are more impressive

It becomes a flat out subjective mess as opposed to being pseudo objective :maybe

No, you're free to take Stan Lee's approach to the question "who wins this fight" in fiction

You're just going to have to get over the fact the writer doesn't give a shit about good writing (namely being able to keep track of power sets and write a decent plot without ignoring disparity in powers shown) and the ****er that wins is whoever the hell the writer wants it to be :maybe

The thing is, a lot of times you're applying hard, real-world logic, to fiction. I've found that across fictional universes, they generally have their own system of logic that transcends what is possible, or what we're limited by, in the real world. Once you get used to that form of logic, you can start applying it effectively in situations like this - a versus format.

I understand what you mean when you talk about telekinesis being far more powerful than lightning, making the epic lightning-tutaminis/lightsaber duels look pretty paltry in comparison, or how Vader should by all rights be able to vaporize Kanan. Star Wars logic has never worked that way, however. Telekinesis has always been a brute force weapon incapable of vaporizing anything Force sensitive, and lightning has always been treated as a killing tool.

Another example is Satele absorbing the lightsaber energy - by all means, in the real world that might not have been enough energy to knock down the cliff face. But, Star Wars logic dictates that it was. For someone who doesn't care about the physics involved (the average SWTOR player watching the trailer), they grasp the authorial intent - Satele absorbs powerful energy sword, then projects powerful wave.

tl;dr, become accustomed to the universe's logic, don't bring your own logic to the universe.

Gotta preface this with the fact this is more fun I've had debating shit than I have had in a while :maybe

Kind of a given when my board is dead and full of lazy ****s or lemmings, but take what you're given

Originally posted by ILS
The thing is, a lot of times you're applying hard, real-world logic, to fiction. I've found that across fictional universes, they generally have their own system of logic that transcends what is possible, or what we're limited by, in the real world. Once you get used to that form of logic, you can start applying it effectively in situations like this - a versus format.

You're acknowledging the problem, yet failing to address it at the same time

Cross universe fight, naturally, some universes are going to behave differently than others

How do you compare them?

You need a common foundation to draw upon to even bother trying. Without doing so, I can claim destroying the universe takes less energy than flicking a light switch on and off for a 60 watt bulb and you'd have no way to challenge my assessment on the premise the universe given works on "magic".



Not really my problem if that's never been shown

One character can play ping pong with a guy that moves Star Destroyers

The other can levitate a decent sized rock

Comparing the feats, you'll find the latter is magnitudes weaker than the former

The conclusion you reach is Kanan is fleshy meat chunks on account of lacking feats to back up suggesting otherwise

Or, like I brought up above? Just say **** it to the hobby, you're not bothering using any actual form of objective comparison anyway



First?

Establish authorial intent for me, because I've never seen anything stating Satele needed to absorb power from something as pithy as a lightsaber to level that large cliff.

Another thing? Hiding behind "authorial intent" when the author is mum about an issue? Guess what, you're making an assumption without basis and dots to conenct based on what you personally think is going on

A logical mess, given people vary in how they think from person to person. Your experiences and theirs are unique

Without an established authorial intent? You're left with feats to draw upon, and you're lacking in support there to support either premise or conclusion.



TL;DR?

You're free to be like Stan Lee, just don't expect this hobby to actually have objective conclusions without an actual foundation to make comparisons between feats from

I've said it many times, this hobby is a joke, inexact, and subjective. How you approach depends on preference.

If you want to try being objective? Better figure out a way to compare fictions across the board in a reliable fashion.

Anyway, sleep now. Had some fun. Not exactly expecting to change any minds, just trying to get some thinking going :maybe

Later dude.

Vader is above Bane BTW.

Originally posted by LadyKulvax
Isn't it implied that Vader and even more so Sidious are so far beyond Jedi it isn't a contest by Filoni?


Yes but Filoni's also outright stated that "Numbers" defeat the Jedi. And he was talking about being vastly outnumbered by droids or pirates. So it's only logical that being vastly outnumbered by Jedi makes it a guarantee loss for ANY Single Jedi or Sith.

And btw Kanan carries a blaster at all times as well. So imagine those 50 pirates that captured Dooku all with Jedi speed/reflexes/coordination. Then imagine them all also having lightsabers which they've been trained well with.

I'm sorry but Vader has no chance at all here.

Make it like 10 Kanan's and this might be a fair fight.