Zatanna Vs The Hulk

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riv6672
No prep or BFR. Pre DCnu Zatanna. Prof. Green.

krisblaze
seippup fo xob etaerC

10/10

DarkSaint85
Wouldn't 'mlac nwod' work just as well?

That's all she'd need, really. Everyone and his dog in the Marvel U knows the madder the Hulk gets, the stronger he gets - and the Hulk is the strongest one there is.

Plus, Z isn't really the confrontational warrior type, like, say, WW or Supergirl is.

riv6672
I should just use Zatanna for every versus! stick out tongue

carver9
Zatanna gets blitzed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Zatanna gets blitzed.

She can take it.

http://i.imgur.com/i6CPjDL.png

riv6672
Weird.
How would that not have KOd her?

carver9
Because WW was probably holding back. A punch from Hulk would annihilate her.

Bentley
Originally posted by carver9
Because WW was probably holding back. A punch from Hulk would annihilate her.

Stop being a Diana hater Carv, Hulk wouldn't ohko WW ahah

riv6672
Was thinking the same. Wondered if she'd marshmallow fisted WW or something.

riv6672
That sounded strange. no expression

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Because WW was probably holding back. A punch from Hulk would annihilate her.

Because Doc Green does not hold back, and kills all of his opponents with mighty blows?

She was also sucker punched, which you seem to love using as an excuse...

Not to mention, at the time, it was making all of them super aggressive and fighting each other. The very antithesis of 'not holding back'.

TheHulk
Meh, Hulk 7/10

riv6672
He's not her friend though. More likely to punch for effect, dont you think?

krisblaze
Preboot Zatanna basically fought a multiversal being in Seven Soldiers.

Here she's getting 7/10 from the Hulk

dur

riv6672
Hulk has shaken realities with his punches.

Here he's getting 7/10 on Zatanna.

stick out tongue

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
He's not her friend though. More likely to punch for effect, dont you think?

Of course - but Doc Green (and MOST Hulks) do not kill - they are always holding back. I always try to argue character, but Carver likes arguing powersets. It is quite depressing sometimes, really, but I soldier on.

They start 500m away, and somehow, Doc Green, in character, opens with a speed blitz, that will be strong enough to KO/kill a character he has never met before, and as far as he knows, is a normal human who does stage magic (as per the general knowledge rule)? OK.

riv6672
But he does have general knowledge. He's not going to want her to speak. A quick KO is smart. And he's smart.

Also, i see what you mean about power sets.

krisblaze
Carver wants to argue powersets against Zatanna.

I'll gladly take him to the battlezone.

He can use worldbreaker, I'll take Z.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
But he does have general knowledge. He's not going to want her to speak. A quick KO is smart. And he's smart.

Also, i see what you mean about power sets.

General knowledge - the population of DC Earth don't know about Z, and those that do only know of her as a stage illusionist. The kind you hire for birthday parties and the like.

Of course, Doc Green is not stupid. He sees this girl, not wearing ANY armour, standing there, and 'knows' she's the Amazing Z (or whatever her stage name was). He's not going to rush in for the blitz, without studying her and knowing what he's getting into. The whole point about Doc Green was that he studied his opponents, and formulates plans and plots and strategies. THEN attacks.

It's like carver doesn't even read Hulk comics sad

DarkSaint85
Oh, and for the record, she doesn't need to speak to do magic:

Example 1:
http://i.imgur.com/ArH8bPr.png

Example 2:
http://i.imgur.com/ccPccFr.png

Next, I predict carver will ask for scans of her doing other things, and then claim she can only shoot blasts without backwards magic. Even though that has never been alluded to.

carver9
Doesn't even have to be like I said. I could also say this "Hulk opens up a portal, jump into it and ports behind Zatanna and koes her. Also, this version of Hulk tends to end things quickly. Not in a killing fashion but he delivers enough to drop his opponent.

Stoic
Depends on who gets in the first attack. IMO, not a good match for Bruce, but he has surprised me many times in the past.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Doesn't even have to be like I said. I could also say this "Hulk opens up a portal, jump into it and ports behind Zatanna and koes her. Also, this version of Hulk tends to end things quickly. Not in a killing fashion but he delivers enough to drop his opponent.

And he knows exactly how powerful/durable Z is, does he?

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And he knows exactly how powerful/durable Z is, does he?

Why wouldn't he? Basic knowledge.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't he? Basic knowledge.

So he knows she's a stage illusionist, and that's it?

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So he knows she's a stage illusionist, and that's it?

Why wouldn't he know about her durability when everyone in DC that has confronted her knows?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't he know about her durability when everyone in DC that has confronted her knows?



General population have no clue about the JLD. They know of Z, but in her capacity as a stage illusionist. As far as Doc Green knows, he's fighting Mysterio or David Copperfield.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
General population have no clue about the JLD. They know of Z, but in her capacity as a stage illusionist. As far as Doc Green knows, he's fighting Mysterio or David Copperfield.

In there it says, home world, which would include the people that does know about her. Everything they know about her which includes her durability. Anyways, if this isn't something that he knows off hand, then he will probably hold back too much power when attacking her which would probably not end up in his favor. If he does have info on her durability, then I'm giving the guy that recently shook Earth in a fist fight and leveled a city in a single punch the advantage

-K-M-
The mental gymnastics carver pulls to shoehorn his faulty logic in is almost admirable. Almost.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
In there it says, home world, which would include the people that does know about her. Everything they know about her which includes her durability. Anyways, if this isn't something that he knows off hand, then he will probably hold back too much power when attacking her which would probably not end up in his favor. If he does have info on her durability, then I'm giving the guy that recently shook Earth in a fist fight and leveled a city in a single punch the advantage

Lol.

General population of her homeworld. On DCU Earth, she is known as an illusionist, nothing more. Only the supers know of her, and even then, only a subset know how powerful she is. The GENERAL population, i.e, the vast majority of the six billion or so humans on Earth, don't know anything about her, and those who do, think she's a mere illusionist. So no, the general population either don't know or think she's Mysterio-lite (if they knew who Mysterio was).

So we all agree Z wins. thumb up

riv6672
You keep using this to bait Carver. Stating it as fact, asking it as a question...

...which is fun, but still.
You telling me Zs never been pictured fighting some menace or other in this media age, or asking?

The fact that general knowledge has become the sticking point means that yes, Z can take Hulk, but only if Hulk doesnt know anything about her and as such just stands there....
Not very likely.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
You keep using this to bait Carver. Stating it as fact, asking it as a question...

...which is fun, but still.
You telling me Zs never been pictured fighting some menace or other in this media age, or asking?

The fact that general knowledge has become the sticking point means that yes, Z can take Hulk, but only if Hulk doesnt know anything about her and as such just stands there....
Not very likely.

She hasn't. She doesn't go around saving people like in the JLA; the JLD specifically operate from the shadows. Hell, their base of operations was the House of Mystery, lol.

It's not really the sticking point. It was to counteract carver's - IMHO - ridiculous statement that Doc Green would speedblitz, or suddenly start turning into the Spot and start porting behind people to punch them into submission.

CAN he speedblitz? Well, if you allow for him to use feats from other Hulk incarnations - which carver WILL do - then yes. WOULD he? I say no. He will try and gain some measure of his opponent, and attempt to study them. I'm not saying he will start doing a Beast, and try running tests etc mid-battle, but he would try and gain the measure of Zatanna.

Whereas Z, with the benefit of knowing that she's facing a big ugly monster who gets stronger the madder he gets, wouldn't 'try and gain his measure'.

carver9
Want to throw out there that Doc said that him and Indestructible Hulk are one of the same. He said the only thing that changed is his mindset.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Want to throw out there that Doc said that him and Indestructible Hulk are one of the same. He said the only thing that changed is his mindset.

Aren't the Hulk's power levels linked to his mindset? The angrier he is, the stronger etc?

Just throwing that out there.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Aren't the Hulk's power levels linked to his mindset? The angrier he is, the stronger etc?

Just throwing that out there.

Sometimes. Like, Merged Hulk clearly wasn't as angry as Savage but he was stronger and more durable. Sometimes it depends on control and Doc has a lot of that. And again, Doc specifically states his power level is the same, the only thing that has changed is his mindset. Can't get any clearer than that. By the way, ALL of Hulk fts belong to him. No way around this.

DarkSaint85
So IOW, the instant someone in here tried to use any of Z's feats, you'd shut them down with Savage Hulk's high end feats, or WB's, or Gray Hulk's, or, as you are already trying to do, Indestructible? Even though we have rulings about using only the Hulks that are named, with the example of WWH?

Nice thumb up

Z wins this, and I like how you've agreed too. We argue character here, not powersets. One day, you will learn, I hope.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So IOW, the instant someone in here tried to use any of Z's feats, you'd shut them down with Savage Hulk's high end feats, or WB's, or Gray Hulk's, or, as you are already trying to do, Indestructible? Even though we have rulings about using only the Hulks that are named, with the example of WWH?

Nice thumb up

Z wins this, and I like how you've agreed too. We argue character here, not powersets. One day, you will learn, I hope.

What's Hulks powerset?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
What's Hulks powerset?

To get stronger the madder he gets. Linked to his emotions, he is then capable of increasing his strength/healing exponentially.

As his strength increases, other physical characteristics, such as speed and stamina, all of which are linked to his muscles, also increases.

Sometimes, this leads to illogical things - like being able to grab intangible beings, energy, etc. But it is all a function of his emotions. There are two main things to always remember about the Hulk:

1. The madder he is, the stronger he is.
2. He is the strongest there is.

Golgo13
Zatanna has been beastly lately. She wins.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
To get stronger the madder he gets. Linked to his emotions, he is then capable of increasing his strength/healing exponentially.

As his strength increases, other physical characteristics, such as speed and stamina, all of which are linked to his muscles, also increases.

Sometimes, this leads to illogical things - like being able to grab intangible beings, energy, etc. But it is all a function of his emotions. There are two main things to always remember about the Hulk:

1. The madder he is, the stronger he is.
2. He is the strongest there is.

So if his POWER is to get stronger, etc, based off his emotion and there's no OUTSIDE power up that is achieving this, can you explain to me why all of his fts doesn't belong to him? He did it, under his own power, so why can he not have what belongs to him?

Branlor Swift
Wait...

Is the argument seriously that Hulk would hold back his strength and that him knowing or not knowing her durability is an actual hurdle to overcome?
The one thing every Hulk does is punch things. Why the hell would he need a measure of her durability? She could be adamantium or made of paper and as long as Hulk is in full capacity he would hit them the same.

And why would he hold back either? Nevermind forum rules, but seriously?

Not saying he wins, but trying to cover every basis of why he loses doesn't work when those ideas are non sensical.

ares834
Hulk's only shot is a blitz. Otherwise he is toast.

krisblaze
Originally posted by ares834
Hulk's only shot is a blitz. Otherwise he is toast.
She has better reaction time feats.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Wait...

Is the argument seriously that Hulk would hold back his strength and that him knowing or not knowing her durability is an actual hurdle to overcome?
The one thing every Hulk does is punch things. Why the hell would he need a measure of her durability? She could be adamantium or made of paper and as long as Hulk is in full capacity he would hit them the same.

And why would he hold back either? Nevermind forum rules, but seriously?

Not saying he wins, but trying to cover every basis of why he loses doesn't work when those ideas are non sensical.

Because it's Doc Green. And doesn't kill. None of the Hulks do.

Carver's arguing powerset, and that the ding of the bell, Doc will speed blitz.

@Carver: there IS an external stimuli powering him up. Do you not read Hulk comics?

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because it's Doc Green. And doesn't kill. None of the Hulks do.

Carver's arguing powerset, and that the ding of the bell, Doc will speed blitz.

@Carver: there IS an external stimuli powering him up. Do you not read Hulk comics?

He is powered by a dimension, just like Superman is powered by Stars, just like Kyle is powered by the Lantern, etc, etc...that still doesn't go against what I said. If he has done everything within his own power, without any outside assistance, then again, why doesn't those fts belong to him? Why are we picking and choosing?

By the way, I'm not arguing powerset.

DarkSaint85
No, he's powered by his anger. How do you not know this?

If he isn't angry, he doesn't get as powerful. They drove this point home over and over with WWH and WBH storylines. You should read them.

If Hulk A is not as angry as Hulk B, then he is not as powerful. If Hulk B gets calmed down by puppies, or Betty, he will lose his power snd revert to Banner.

The external stimuli which makes him angry is what powers him. He doesn't just achieve WWH levels on his own. There was a storyline, called Planet Hulk, which details how he came to be.

Sin I AM
Wouldn't her saying calm down be a little too high end? I think she'd need to be more creative than that. He would know he's being tampered with and power thru. Thats what he does.

The Sorrow
Doc Green doesn't revert to Banner by being calm it's a conscious choice. Just throwing that out there.

VastoLord1234
zatanna, without a doubt, she has some of the most insane feats from JLD

Golgo13
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
zatanna, without a doubt, she has some of the most insane feats from JLD


Yeah, her freezing time (with Xanadu and Nurse) across the Multiverse (which was stated to be infinite universes) was pretty damn huge, even if it was a shared feat.

VastoLord1234
Originally posted by Golgo13
Yeah, her freezing time (with Xanadu and Nurse) across the Multiverse (which was stated to be infinite universes) was pretty damn huge, even if it was a shared feat.

She also banished the nanda parbat spirits, enchanted swamp thing to create the world tree, and many more feats.

tkitna
I cant fathom a way for the Hulk to win. I really cant.

relentless1
Hulk loses, Z freezing him in his tracks or turning him back into Banner or any multitude of things that she can come up with really.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, he's powered by his anger. How do you not know this?

If he isn't angry, he doesn't get as powerful. They drove this point home over and over with WWH and WBH storylines. You should read them.

If Hulk A is not as angry as Hulk B, then he is not as powerful. If Hulk B gets calmed down by puppies, or Betty, he will lose his power snd revert to Banner.

The external stimuli which makes him angry is what powers him. He doesn't just achieve WWH levels on his own. There was a storyline, called Planet Hulk, which details how he came to be.

WTF. That's the entire point of the Hulk. His power thrives off of his anger and this applies to EVERY Hulk. His power is to be dynamic and him being angry doesn't mean he is receiving some type of outside amp. Then, EVERY Hulk has the ability to get angry...hell, anger is what triggers the Hulk so again. You taking his fts away from him is like taking his ability away from him. You might as well consider all of his threads a calm Hulk thread since you don't understand that his powerset is based off of his anger.

WWH being angrier than ever doesn't change anything I'm saying. Him being angry just increased his POWERSET. No external amp was given, it was all based on HIS powerset. Superman sundipping is an external amp. Havok jumping in all star is an external amp. Someone powers being based off of their anger is an internal amp. It's their powerset. Do you not understand this? You clinging one ft to one Hulk is like you picking and choosing a powerset of the character when overall, his powerset is based off amping. Planet Hulk 'Hulk' was the same freaking Hulk that came to Earth angrier than ever. The only difference was, he was pissed. He fed off the same power source, his own. What's so hard to grasp here? Where does this stop? Does this also apply to Hyperion? Does this apply to Doomsday as well? The madder he gets, the stronger he gets. Does this apply to every character that powers thrives off of their emotions? What about Gladiator? If he starts the battle off at a calm mild confident state and stomps Thor, does that mean he would rip Thor in half if he is pissed? We need to do a separation here. Let's make a list off all the characters who powers thrive off their mental state and separate fts. I know this just doesn't apply to Hulk, huh? Do you want me to make the list? If so, can you apply when the fts for each character is valid or not?

Golgo13
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
She also banished the nanda parbat spirits, enchanted swamp thing to create the world tree, and many more feats.

Forgot about those. thumb up

Star428
The problem with the "Hulk blitzing" theory is that I've never seen him display speed on Clark's, Diana's, or even Spider-Man's level.

carver9
Originally posted by Star428
The problem with the "Hulk blitzing" theory is that I've never seen him display speed on Clark's, Diana's, or even Spider-Man's level.

When was the last time you picked up or read a Hulk comic?

quanchi112
Hulk wins.

relentless1
Hulks faster than Spidey for sure but cmon, he's not on Superman or Wonder womans level of blitz or combat speed

carver9
Originally posted by relentless1
Hulks faster than Spidey for sure but cmon, he's not on Superman or Wonder womans level of blitz or combat speed

Nope. I wouldn't say that either but he was talking like Hulk is slow or something when they recently displayed his speed in crazy ways for someone that is suppose to be a walking brick.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by relentless1
Hulks faster than Spidey for sure but cmon, he's not on Superman or Wonder womans level of blitz or combat speed

No, but he is fast. Just not fast enough to one shot z

Reflassshh
enogeb kcuf neerG. thumb up

Star428
LOL@ Hulk being faster than Spider-Man.



And no, Carver. I never said Hulk was "slow" but I've never known of him "blitzing" anyone. I certainly don't think he's fast enough to KO Zatanna before she says something backwards unless he's standing right next to her when fight starts.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They start 500m away
Not a metric guy but, thats what, 1/4 mile or so?
Its a perfectly valid, in character scenario for Hulk to incapacitate Z, especially since she looks basically harmless, from a distance. Foot stomp. Thunder clap.

Not looking to argue Hulk vs Spider speed, though it is an interesting topic...

Golgo13
Sure if Z let's him.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
WTF. That's the entire point of the Hulk. His power thrives off of his anger and this applies to EVERY Hulk. His power is to be dynamic and him being angry doesn't mean he is receiving some type of outside amp. Then, EVERY Hulk has the ability to get angry...hell, anger is what triggers the Hulk so again. You taking his fts away from him is like taking his ability away from him. You might as well consider all of his threads a calm Hulk thread since you don't understand that his powerset is based off of his anger.

WWH being angrier than ever doesn't change anything I'm saying. Him being angry just increased his POWERSET. No external amp was given, it was all based on HIS powerset. Superman sundipping is an external amp. Havok jumping in all star is an external amp. Someone powers being based off of their anger is an internal amp. It's their powerset. Do you not understand this? You clinging one ft to one Hulk is like you picking and choosing a powerset of the character when overall, his powerset is based off amping. Planet Hulk 'Hulk' was the same freaking Hulk that came to Earth angrier than ever. The only difference was, he was pissed. He fed off the same power source, his own. What's so hard to grasp here? Where does this stop? Does this also apply to Hyperion? Does this apply to Doomsday as well? The madder he gets, the stronger he gets. Does this apply to every character that powers thrives off of their emotions? What about Gladiator? If he starts the battle off at a calm mild confident state and stomps Thor, does that mean he would rip Thor in half if he is pissed? We need to do a separation here. Let's make a list off all the characters who powers thrive off their mental state and separate fts. I know this just doesn't apply to Hulk, huh? Do you want me to make the list? If so, can you apply when the fts for each character is valid or not?

No idea what this drivel is. Sure, let's make that list. Sentry. Oh wait, we do. WWH. Oh wait, we do. Lol.

relentless1
Spidey for sure has better combat speed but i doubt he's faster in a foot race

DarkSaint85
Btw, carver, the reason why I said its an external amp is because the Hulk needs something to get angry at. He doesn't, for example, hit WWH levels because Spidey cracked an inappropriate joke. Or because a Frost Giant punched him. Or even because his AI disobeyed him. Or because he stubbed his toe. That's what I mean by it being external.

krisblaze
Dark, go to bed.

I also ran that line of argument roughly 5-6 years ago.

Nobody on KMC is buying it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by krisblaze
Dark, go to bed.

I also ran that line of argument roughly 5-6 years ago.

Nobody on KMC is buying it.

Time difference, mate.

I (we) can run riot.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Doc Green doesn't revert to Banner by being calm it's a conscious choice. Just throwing that out there.

When he gets tired, he sleeps and reverts. And surely if you're going down the 'all Hulks are the same', what reverts Indestructible/Savage to Banner, reverts Doc (i.e. calming). But of course, Doc is different in this case, right?

riv6672
Originally posted by Golgo13
Sure if Z let's him.
The Hulk seems to be letting Z do whatever she wants in 90% of everyone's arguments, so sure. yes

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
The Hulk seems to be letting Z do whatever she wants in 90% of everyone's arguments, so sure. yes

Well, I'm one of the 90% - and the reason why I'm saying he DOES let her, is because he would not see her as a threat. A bargain basement Mysterio - illusions only. What would he fear from her? Until she busts out her spells.

krisblaze
^I think you're putting too much stake on that one scenario.

It doesn't matter if the Hulk attacks her right away or tries a blitz. Her shields can take it, and she has a gazillion options.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by krisblaze
^I think you're putting too much stake on that one scenario.

It doesn't matter if the Hulk attacks her right away or tries a blitz. Her shields can take it, and she has a gazillion options.

Shh. That was plan 2. Once carver manages to convince me that somehow, Doc Green WOULD blitz and attempt to punch Z from the get go, then we can do some shields.

He's obv going to use Indestructible/Savage/Gray etc Hulk feats for Doc Green, which is...misguided, I think, but carver is nothing if not predictable. I mean, we could've gone the silly route of arguing that DCnU Z and DCU Z have the same powersets, and therefore, the same feats (with no amps etc), but carver would throw fits.

Riv, as OP, what do you think? Other Hulk feats admissible?

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, I'm one of the 90% - and the reason why I'm saying he DOES let her, is because he would not see her as a threat. A bargain basement Mysterio - illusions only. What would he fear from her? Until she busts out her spells.
No worries. At least you have reasoning (as usual), even if i disagree with it! thumb up

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
No worries. At least you have reasoning (as usual), even if i disagree with it! thumb up

Thanks. What's your take on use of feats from 'other' Hulks? Savage, Indestructible etc? Or did you just want feats from the guy wearing the nifty waistcoat and the so-in-the-moment haircut?

carver9
Originally posted by Star428
LOL@ Hulk being faster than Spider-Man.



And no, Carver. I never said Hulk was "slow" but I've never known of him "blitzing" anyone. I certainly don't think he's fast enough to KO Zatanna before she says something backwards unless he's standing right next to her when fight starts.

He blitzed Ironman at blurring speeds. He blitzed some metas that was moving around at invisible super speed. You might want to pick up some of his books.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Btw, carver, the reason why I said its an external amp is because the Hulk needs something to get angry at. He doesn't, for example, hit WWH levels because Spidey cracked an inappropriate joke. Or because a Frost Giant punched him. Or even because his AI disobeyed him. Or because he stubbed his toe. That's what I mean by it being external.

Hulk starts off angry and that still doesn't take away from all of his fts belonging to him instead of it being pointed to specifics. Now please tell me all of the fts that belongs to each Sentry (not talking about Void either), Gladiator, Doomsday's, etc...

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Shh. That was plan 2. Once carver manages to convince me that somehow, Doc Green WOULD blitz and attempt to punch Z from the get go, then we can do some shields.

He's obv going to use Indestructible/Savage/Gray etc Hulk feats for Doc Green, which is...misguided, I think, but carver is nothing if not predictable. I mean, we could've gone the silly route of arguing that DCnU Z and DCU Z have the same powersets, and therefore, the same feats (with no amps etc), but carver would throw fits.

Riv, as OP, what do you think? Other Hulk feats admissible?

DCU Z and DCNU Z are complete different characters. The Hulk is the same character that has done everything (main part here) under his OWN power. You might as well separate all of Savage Hulk fts since he's more angry at one point than he is at the beginning of the fight. You're entire argument is based off anger levels, isn't it?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Hulk starts off angry and that still doesn't take away from all of his fts belonging to him instead of it being pointed to specifics. Now please tell me all of the fts that belongs to each Sentry (not talking about Void either), Gladiator, Doomsday's, etc...

Sure.

I am NOT saying that Hulk starts off calm, btw. Never said that.

When we say Death Seed Sentry, he has feats that non-Void unstable Sentry does not have.

Stable Sentry has different feats from Unstable Sentry.

We differentiate between them. Siege Sentry is different.

Doomsday's powers don't stem from anger. BUT we DO differentiate between them. Doomsday Rex, HP Doomsday, DoS Doomsday etc.

Gladiator is usually at his average, which is at full confidence. He can't get any more confident than that, lol.

Genis Vell has Insane and non-insane differentiation as well.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
DCU Z and DCNU Z are complete different characters. The Hulk is the same character that has done everything (main part here) under his OWN power. You might as well separate all of Savage Hulk fts since he's more angry at one point than he is at the beginning of the fight. You're entire argument is based off anger levels, isn't it?

The Hulks are all different characters, as well. Different mindsets. Same powersets, but of course, we argue characters here, not powersets, so moot, right??

DCnU and DCU Z have the same powersets. They did what they did (main part here) under their OWN power. They both derive their powers from being Homo Magi. No amps.

krisblaze
Dark Saint explaining the bare basics to a 10 year old veteran who STILL does not understand the rules.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by krisblaze
Dark Saint explaining the bare basics to a 10 year old veteran who STILL does not understand the rules.

If I see a thread specifying 'Doc Green vs XYZ', I would use feats and showings that Doc Green has exhibited. The thread does not say 'Hulk', the OP has gone through the trouble of specifying it is Doc Green. So Doc Green it is.

Otherwise, I might as well say that WBH is in all Hulk threads.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks. What's your take on use of feats from 'other' Hulks? Savage, Indestructible etc? Or did you just want feats from the guy wearing the nifty waistcoat and the so-in-the-moment haircut?
Whatever feats are applicable. Its not like anyone actually sticks to OP stips here if things get heated.

As to the haircut...Zatanna has a clear fashion advantage as fishnets never go out of style... eek!

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sure.

I am NOT saying that Hulk starts off calm, btw. Never said that.

When we say Death Seed Sentry, he has feats that non-Void unstable Sentry does not have.

Stable Sentry has different feats from Unstable Sentry.

We differentiate between them. Siege Sentry is different.

Doomsday's powers don't stem from anger. BUT we DO differentiate between them. Doomsday Rex, HP Doomsday, DoS Doomsday etc.

Gladiator is usually at his average, which is at full confidence. He can't get any more confident than that, lol.

Genis Vell has Insane and non-insane differentiation as well.

Lol...we are not talking about Death seed or Void here, we are talking about SENTRY. At one moment he can have a child like mind and even during these states, he is still extremely powerful and at and other time he can be as confident as day. Do we separate his showings based off this since his powers does thrive off of his mental state?

Lol...just because Hulk suffers from a personality disorder doesn't mean his fts doesn't belong to him. That's just part of the character. What we do know is, Banner is still in control in ALL of the Hulks.

Uuummmm, Doomsday power has been stated on panel to be linked to his anger. Those Doomsday's you named are not Doomsday's, they are replicas. I'm talking about Doomsday.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...we are not talking about Death seed or Void here, we are talking about SENTRY. At one moment he can have a child like mind and even during these states, he is still extremely powerful and at and other time he can be as confident as day. Do we separate his showings based off this since his powers does thrive off of his mental state?

Lol...just because Hulk suffers from a personality disorder doesn't mean his fts doesn't belong to him. That's just part of the character. What we do know is, Banner is still in control in ALL of the Hulks.

Uuummmm, Doomsday power has been stated on panel to be linked to his anger. Those Doomsday's you named are not Doomsday's, they are replicas. I'm talking about Doomsday.

What is it that you too are arguing about to do with Sentry? Separating his feats and stuff? I'm in College so I can't really read through the argument that much.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
What is it that you too are arguing about to do with Sentry? Separating his feats and stuff? I'm in College so I can't really read through the argument that much.

Naah, all of Sentry fts belong to him.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
What is it that you too are arguing about to do with Sentry? Separating his feats and stuff? I'm in College so I can't really read through the argument that much.

My point was that if one goes to the trouble of naming a Sentry version, you get to use the feats as exhibited by that Sentry. If, however, you just use 'Sentry', and when people ask, you just reply with 'Sentry', then all feats are admissible.

Also, that carver is a poo head, but there has been no dissent on that.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My point was that if one goes to the trouble of naming a Sentry version, you get to use the feats as exhibited by that Sentry. If, however, you just use 'Sentry', and when people ask, you just reply with 'Sentry', then all feats are admissible.

Also, that carver is a poo head, but there has been no dissent on that.

Lol...can't believe you called me that.

So this all boils down to Hulk suffering from split personality?

beatboks
Not really seeing why Zee fairs any better against Hulk than she did against Lobo in reign in hell.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
So this all boils down to Hulk suffering from split personality?

It boils down to if someone takes the trouble to specify a specific incarnation (Savage/Doc Green etc) then we use that version, and that version only. Like Classic Kingpin, Classic Ion, Classic Parallax, Classic Juggernaut etc.

I don't use Kyle's Ion feats when talking about Sodom Yat when he was fighting SBP, for example. Even though the Ion entity is the same, and there wasn't any official depowering (that I know of).

krisblaze
Originally posted by beatboks
Not really seeing why Zee fairs any better against Hulk than she did against Lobo in reign in hell.

Uhm...reverse physical trauma only "failed" because there was someone else there for Lobo to attack.

She was practically toying with him.

beatboks
Originally posted by krisblaze
Uhm...reverse physical trauma only "failed" because there was someone else there for Lobo to attack.

She was practically toying with him.

Every attack failed because Lobo could take what ever pain she could dish out. Because she wasnt prepared to kill he could just keep coming. Hulk is every bit as capable of taking everything and just keep coming.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by beatboks
Every attack failed because Lobo could take what ever pain she could dish out. Because she wasnt prepared to kill he could just keep coming. Hulk is every bit as capable of taking everything and just keep coming.

Except when Hulk sleeps/calms down, he reverts to puny Banner.

krisblaze
Originally posted by beatboks
Every attack failed because Lobo could take what ever pain she could dish out. Because she wasnt prepared to kill he could just keep coming. Hulk is every bit as capable of taking everything and just keep coming.

Hulk also gets stronger much faster than he gets durable, and its not like he could actually affect her...

h1a8
Originally posted by relentless1
Hulks faster than Spidey for sure but cmon, he's not on Superman or Wonder womans level of blitz or combat speed Hulk is not even halfway as fast as Spider-man. If you go by highest feats then Spidey has him dusted and if you go by entire history and averages then Spidey has him vastly dusted.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except when Hulk sleeps/calms down, he reverts to puny Banner.

Not this Hulk.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It boils down to if someone takes the trouble to specify a specific incarnation (Savage/Doc Green etc) then we use that version, and that version only. Like Classic Kingpin, Classic Ion, Classic Parallax, Classic Juggernaut etc.

I don't use Kyle's Ion feats when talking about Sodom Yat when he was fighting SBP, for example. Even though the Ion entity is the same, and there wasn't any official depowering (that I know of).

Kyle and Sodom Yat are two different people. Hulk is the same being, can't compare the two. The Ion is the same but it's being used by different peeps. Now if Ion Kyle while calmed destroyed a planet with ease, I would separate his fts because he is pissed off and destroyed a planet twice the size. It's the same person, same character that did it and it's within his ability. Everything ft that Hulk has done is within his ability, no matter the mindset. The onky difference is, it depends on how pissed he is which is where his power amplifies. HIS POWER AMPLIFIES. That's like me separating fts from Power Gem Champion because at one moment he is pissed off and another he is calm. Even though the gem feeds him power the more he taps into it (based off of his emotion), everything he did with the gem belongs to him. The onky difference is, Hulk is suffering from split personality.

ALL of Hulk fts belong to him. His abilities is to be dynamic. So if I AM debating Hulk, I'm using all of his material since it's the same character without any outside amp.

-K-M-
Originally posted by carver9
Not this Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
ALL of Hulk fts belong to him. His abilities is to be dynamic. So if I AM debating Hulk, I'm using all of his material since it's the same character without any outside amp.

Impressive you contradicted yourself in just one post. So all feats can be applied to hulk...just not his low showings. Gotcha.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by -K-M-
Impressive you contradicted yourself in just one post. So all feats can be applied to hulk...just not his low showings. Gotcha.

Carver, damn son you got owned.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000709537049/73683674a537e2293e30e815bb452c71_400x400.png

carver9
Lol...naah, I pay KM little attention if any.

-K-M-
Oh the faux self importance post. Good one carver

Guess it helps keep you ignorant thumb up

Golgo13
laughing out loud

carver9
Spoke nothing but the truth. My radar vs








Paying KM any attention.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Not this Hulk.

What was this?

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/14_zpss6360nuo.jpg

-K-M-
Dark you're not on his radar. He can't see what you posted.

carver9
@Dark...


What I'm telling you is, she will not succeed at putting him to sleep. Not saying he can't go to sleep. That isn't the only or first time that has happened either. He fell asleep once during meditation and Banner resurfaced (but Doc eventually came back). He can sleep but he has fought against it for days, probably weeks. Hulk will start fresh here. Won't be as easy as you are trying to make it since we have proof of him fighting against such things.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except when Hulk sleeps/calms down, he reverts to puny Banner.

Originally posted by carver9
Not this Hulk.

So what are you trying to say, carver? You replied and quoted me directly when I said that when Hulk sleeps/calms down, he becomes Banner. And said, not this Hulk.

Stop lying, and attempting to squirm your way out, jeez.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what are you trying to say, carver? You replied and quoted me directly when I said that when Hulk sleeps/calms down, he becomes Banner. And said, not this Hulk.

Stop lying, and attempting to squirm your way out, jeez.

WTF. You are using that as a way she could beat him when that isn't the case. Why would I not think he wouldn't transform back to the Hulk when sleep when I just quoted you a time when he did fall asleep and turned into the Hulk? I read his comics, I know of his naps. What I am telling you here is, that will not work here.

-K-M-
Dark he speaks the "truth" remember?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
WTF. You are using that as a way she could beat him when that isn't the case. Why would I not think he wouldn't transform back to the Hulk when sleep when I just quoted you a time when he did fall asleep and turned into the Hulk? I read his comics, I know of his naps. What I am telling you here is, that will not work here.

You quoted it merely to cover your ass, at having been found out.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You quoted it merely to cover your ass, at having been found out.

Ok. You know what I did. Back to the thread, Hulk wins via super strength vs her durability.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Ok. You know what I did. Back to the thread, Hulk wins via super strength vs her durability.

So, with general knowledge, she will let it turn into a slugfest? thumb up

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So, with general knowledge, she will let it turn into a slugfest? thumb up

He covers the distance and uppercut her to sleep. A fraction of his strength could accomplish this. You posting one scene of her taking a lick from Wonder Woman is like me posting a scan of Batman withstanding a beat down from Superman.

DarkSaint85
It's one more scan than you of showing Doc fighting against magical sleep spells.

carver9
He fought against sleep for days. I feel comfortable with what I said.

-K-M-
Yep Hulk is beyond sleeping and will always go for the kill against a woman

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/SecretWars008-09_zpsbiag1prs.jpg

carver9
thumb up

Good scan KM. Hulk isn't fighting this to win. Why not change this to 'will Hulk hit a girl' thread instead of a vs.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Time difference, mate.

I (we) can run riot.



When he gets tired, he sleeps and reverts. And surely if you're going down the 'all Hulks are the same', what reverts Indestructible/Savage to Banner, reverts Doc (i.e. calming). But of course, Doc is different in this case, right?
Tiredness =/= being calm

All Hulks aren't the same though. Doc Green is calm most of the time and doesn't revert. She'd be better off focusing on other methods of stopping him than calming him down, she doesn't exactly have a huge window of opportunity.

Sin I AM
Is that enchantress scan really plausible? He's overcome worse

-K-M-
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Is that enchantress scan really plausible? He's overcome worse

Yes it's plausible,it happened afterall erm and he had "basic knowledge" of her. Even no name Mystics have knocked out hulk with a sleeping spell.

DarkSaint85
KM just shared s page from his deviantart account

riv6672
Originally posted by carver9
He covers the distance and uppercut her to sleep. A fraction of his strength could accomplish this. You posting one scene of her taking a lick from Wonder Woman is like me posting a scan of Batman withstanding a beat down from Superman.
He doesnt even need to get close.
Thunderclap. Foot stomp.
Basic knowledge paints her as a stage magician. I'm nowhere near Doc Green intellect, but if i'm suddenly whisked to a featureless environment, and a quarter mile away is someone who by all rights shouldnt be there, i'm going to smell a rat.

carver9
Riv, I agree with you. So they posted a scan of ENCHANTRESS putting Hulk to sleep. Can someone post a scan of Zatanna doing the same thing.

-K-M-
Ah yes the Hulk supporters greatest rebuttal....denial. How does one expect to post scans of Zee putting Hulk to sleep again? You know that whole difficulty of being in completely different comic books.

Even Marie Cartier and Georges Baptiste who were just regular people who came across some spells used the "vapors of slumber" on Hulk and knocked him out.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by -K-M-
Ah yes the Hulk supporters greatest rebuttal....denial. How does one expect to post scans of Zee putting Hulk to sleep again? You know that whole difficulty of being in completely different comic books.

Even Marie Cartier and Georges Baptiste who were just regular people who came across some spells used the "vapors of slumber" on Hulk and knocked him out.

But Zatanna, who, recently along with Nightmare Nurse and Xanadu, was powerful enough to freeze time across ALL of creation, would be unable to replicate what those two did.

Omega Vision
I don't see any reason why Zatanna couldn't put Hulk to sleep for the win.

Is she going to do it every time? No. But I also don't see Hulk immediately thunderclapping her to death as soon as he spots her as some are suggesting.

This is a very imbalanced matchup as both characters have huge advantages and disadvantages over one another.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't see any reason why Zatanna couldn't put Hulk to sleep for the win.

Is she going to do it every time? No. But I also don't see Hulk immediately thunderclapping her to death as soon as he spots her as some are suggesting.

This is a very imbalanced matchup as both characters have huge advantages and disadvantages over one another.

The correct response

thumb up

carver9
So wait, no one have scans of Zatanna putting ANYONE to sleep. Ok, Zatanna and Enchantress does a fusion dance and then proceed at putting Hulk to sleep. There ya go, shared fts.

-K-M-
Good one Carver, yep it's totally beyond her power. Let's forget in one scene she freezes an entire room full of magic users with a phrase

Prof. T.C McAbe
kulh llaf peelsa

carver9
So now we switch from putting to sleep (since she has obviously not done this before 'on panel') to freezing the room? Anyways, since we are sharing fts and abilities, Hulk punch the ground so hard that it causes a chain reaction and blows up the planet/area killing enchantress.

http://s21.photobucket.com/user/Bubbleuk/media/ThanosQuest1-35.jpg.html

Not done with the shared fts scans. Be right back.

-K-M-
So dumb even amateurs have put hulk to sleep but it's beyond one of dcs best Mystics? As I said hulks supporters best rebuttal is denial

carver9
peelsa llaf oboL.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2560834-zee_v_lobo_1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2560835-zee_v_lobo_2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2560836-zee_v_lobo_3.jpg

Crazy thing is, she had help. Every last one of her freaking attacks were physical attacks. Nothing exotic except her phasing and I am suppose to believe she would start the battle off with putting someone to sleep? Yeah right. She needs a fusion dance, badly. SsertahcnE Noisuf Ecnad.

-K-M-
You do realize she actually did freeze lobo there right? He even admits she COULD have finished him off but chose not to

Also you do realize lobo's healing factor is superior to hulks right?

I'm going to wager no for both

carver9
She made him bleed, Hulk bleeds and gets pissed off. She make Hulk punch himself which eventually piss him off and probably make him change battle tactics. Intangibility? Hulk has challenged this before. She then gets tossed. Still no fall asleep. Her team mates were in danger as well. Still no fall asleep. Does anyone besides KM and Dark have scans of her attempting this because it seems like they don't have anything like this in their possession.

-K-M-
I'll make this easy......

Did she even try to make him fall asleep?

Do you know why she wanted to inflict pain on Lobo? (That was her intent)

Do you think she would do that to Hulk? again that goes back to the reason why she did it to Lobo.

Did she freeze Lobo instantly when things got out of control?

Prof. T.C McAbe
KM don't waste your time,
Carvers "logic":

a) Zatanna, one of the greatest mages ever, who can freez opponents, manipulate their minds, and cast tons of complex spells that can even alter reality, is not able to cast a simple sleep spell.
b) If you find a scan where she does put someone to sleep with a spell, you will have then to prove that this being is on Hulks level, which is
c) impossible, because no one in DC is on Hulks level.

-K-M-
I haven't bothered even looking for a sleep scan, as it's not a complicated spell (hence why amateurs have done it and used it successfully on Hulk). She put regular humans to sleep but I think anyone in their right mind knows she has the capabilities to use it. I'm also curious to see how far Carver will go.

carver9
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
KM don't waste your time,
Carvers "logic":

a) Zatanna, one of the greatest mages ever, who can freez opponents, manipulate their minds, and cast tons of complex spells that can even alter reality, is not able to cast a simple sleep spell.
b) If you find a scan where she does put someone to sleep with a spell, you will have then to prove that this being is on Hulks level, which is
c) impossible, because no one in DC is on Hulks level.

So you have that scan?

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by carver9
So you have that scan?

abhilegend
She has casually put J'onn to sleep, froze Despero in time and nearly killed entire JLA in her sleep, turned moon into a bat with wings and has some of the best feats for any mystic in comic.

But Carver just can't admit anyone from DC can beat hulk. So yeah.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
So you have that scan?

Google 'zatanna sleep spell', and Prof's scan is the first to come up.

Come on, carver, don't play hard to get.

krisblaze
Carver's not hard to get.

He just has a hard time getting things.

riv6672
Owtch

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by krisblaze
Carver's not hard to get.

He just has a hard time getting things.

Still no reply from him, I wonder if he is ok....

quanchi112
Originally posted by abhilegend
She has casually put J'onn to sleep, froze Despero in time and nearly killed entire JLA in her sleep, turned moon into a bat with wings and has some of the best feats for any mystic in comic.

But Carver just can't admit anyone from DC can beat hulk. So yeah. Irony.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by abhilegend
She has casually put J'onn to sleep, froze Despero in time and nearly killed entire JLA in her sleep, turned moon into a bat with wings and has some of the best feats for any mystic in comic.

But Carver just can't admit anyone from DC can beat hulk. So yeah. Originally posted by quanchi112
Irony.

quoted so Abhi can see.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
quoted so Abhi can see. He lacks the courage to face me.

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