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who wins who dies?

Anakin in every area.

Anakin

HoT imo.

HoT

Anakin lol

Little Orphan Annie.

Mr. Skywalker.

Anakin "does it."

Does what? Die? Well sure.

Originally posted by Trocity
Anakin in every area.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Does what? Die? Well sure.

The Chosen One wins.

Originally posted by Trocity
Anakin in every area.

See these two as peers, but Anakin is definitely superior.

Anakin wins.

I dun get it. The Barsen'thor would cream Anakin and the HoT is repeatedly stated to be her superior.

Originally posted by Trocity
Anakin in every area.

Originally posted by Trocity
Anakin in every area.

The Hero can take him in the Force at least. Anakin isn't overpowering her and she can mind**** him. I'd also say she's at least as powerful as him with TK and more skillful in using it in combat, more tactically than Anakin can. I'd argue she's actualised her power greater than Anakin has and has better showings such as withstanding godlike entities, superior mental abilities and stuff.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Hero can take him in the Force at least. I'd also say she's at least as powerful as him with TK

Tell me when HoT does anything impressive with TK, tbh.



Dude, stop talking.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Tell me when HoT does anything impressive with TK, tbh.



Dude, stop talking.

Ragdoll the Emperor. Resist the TK of a dude powerful enough to level the Dark Temple. Kill people with pushes. Rip massive rocks out of the ceiling. Etc too lazy to look up more.

No. Anakin has no feats suggesting he'd resist.

Originally posted by NewGuy01




Dude, stop talking.

@ Sasukedc's post.

HoT is demonstrably far weaker than Revan - an Anakin Skywalker level combatant.

Originally posted by Trocity
Anakin in every area.

Dooku does have impressive Tk, but that didn't help him against Skywalker.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@ Sasukedc's post.

HoT is demonstrably far weaker than Revan - an Anakin Skywalker level combatant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ragdoll the Emperor. Resist the TK of a dude powerful enough to level the Dark Temple. Kill people with pushes. Rip massive rocks out of the ceiling.
50% of the feats you listed are non-canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
50% of the feats you listed are non-canon.

How now brown cow?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ragdoll the Emperor.

Who at the time didn't even have the strength to stand. Also, non-canon.



These are pretty fodder feats bro.



Hero can mindrape Yoda, tbh. No feats proving he can resist, tbh. No match for the Hero's ability to manipulate a broken, clinically depressed Jedi Master.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Who at the time didn't even have the strength to stand. Also, non-canon.



These are pretty fodder feats bro.



Hero can mindrape Yoda, tbh. No feats proving he can resist, tbh. No match for the Hero's ability to manipulate a broken, clinically depressed Jedi Master.

But did have the strength to destroy the Dark Temple. Even if you dispute that, he still was able to destroy that massive room, which is equal to anything Anakin has done. And he did it, as you say, in a greatly weakened condition. At the start of the fight therefore, he'd be even more powerful, yet the Hero still gained the upper hand. And it's still representative of her abilities and a valid choice.

Not really.

A broken, clinically depressed Jedi Master who possessed the strength of will to overthrow the Emperor's mental domination. Not even Revan and Malak accomplished that (Darth Revan had an incredible will even then btw) and not even the Hero threw it off by herself. Though clearly she improved.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not even Revan and Malak accomplished that (Darth Revan had an incredible will even then btw) .

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/the-power-of-darth-revan-overview/103361/

Yeah, because Tol's dialogue was just oozing with willpower and determination.

The HoT underestimation in KMC is baffling. Anakin is the superior duelist, but i'd give the edge to HoT in TK. Overall, probably Anakin due to his saber mastery and the fact that he's defeated opponents with superior TK to himself, but it would be much more closer than people think, definitely.

And Anakin is always soooo mentally balanced and strong.

LOLING @ Hero being superior to Anakin in telekinesis. Anakin could crush spider droids and manipulate entire dreadnaught cruisers, he could destroy the Hero with TK. Anakin at his worst is superior to Hero toying with rocks

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4309225-anakin+moves+dreadnaught.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4309223-anakin+manipulates+spider+droid.jpg



I'd expect nothing less from the Torbots to fail to acknowledge his feats

Holy shit that art.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The HoT underestimation in KMC is baffling. Anakin is the superior duelist, but i'd give the edge to HoT in TK. Overall, probably Anakin due to his saber mastery and the fact that he's defeated opponents with superior TK to himself, but it would be much more closer than people think, definitely.
What has the HoT done with TK that Anakin hasn't done better?

Originally posted by carthage
LOLING @ Hero being superior to Anakin in telekinesis. Anakin could crush spider droids and manipulate entire dreadnaught cruisers, he could destroy the Hero with TK. Anakin at his worst is superior to Hero toying with rocks

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4309225-anakin+moves+dreadnaught.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4309223-anakin+manipulates+spider+droid.jpg



I'd expect nothing less from the Torbots to fail to acknowledge his feats

Everyone knows that in that cartoon Jedi powers are greatly exaggerated. Anakin would never be able to replicate those feats anywhere else. Not in the movie, not in TCW, not in comics. On G-Canon he stalemates Obi-Wan during RotS. Yes, that was Vader, I know, but still. You're going to tell me Kenobi can do all those things, too?

And seriously, stop making this personal calling us 'Torbots' or whatever else you come up with. I acknowledge the power of PT and OT Jedi, if you've seen me post you should know that by now. I actually said Anakin would win this duel. Keep things civil and don't be a jerk.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The HoT underestimation in KMC is baffling.

That's because recent revelations have completely disarmed him of his status.



Haha, why? TK isn't Anakin's preferred method, but he's so much more powerful it's almost laughable.



I agree. Still, in LoE Anakin caused a dome 90ft high and 270ft in circumference to cave in with a Force Scream. Further than that, he ragdolled Ventress in S5, and by RotS he was stated to have grown "vastly more powerful" since that arc. He's a powerhouse when he actually brings TK to bear, more than capable of replicating the fodder the Hero's shown. Pushing guards? Collapsing small ceiling portions? Give me a break.

Eh? Which revelations?

That dome was damaged by blasterfire and bringing down a dome isn't even that hard. Its large size would work against it, since more weight it being supported by the lower portions. Weakening the bottom could cause the whole thing to collapse. Besides which, that was an involuntary display of power and it's less impressive than what the Barsen'thor or the Vitiate the Hero fought were capable of and both are inferior to the Hero.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Everyone knows that in that cartoon Jedi powers are greatly exaggerated. Anakin would never be able to replicate those feats anywhere else. Not in the movie, not in TCW, not in comics. On G-Canon he stalemates Obi-Wan during RotS. Yes, that was Vader, I know, but still. You're going to tell me Kenobi can do all those things, too?

And seriously, stop making this personal calling us 'Torbots' or whatever else you come up with. I acknowledge the power of PT and OT Jedi, if you've seen me post you should know that by now. I actually said Anakin would win this duel. Keep things civil and don't be a jerk.

It doesn't matter to me if you think they're "exaggerated. What has Hero done other than bring down rocks? You made the claim that the Hero has superior telekinetic feats, now back it up. I'm also loling @ the double standard, Bane hasn't replicate his telekinetic showings on nexuses yet that doesn't stop posters here from citing them as examples of his power in spite of him never replicating them anywhere.

Btw, here's that boulder feat I mentioned:

mF4YIaKw0cI

5.05. I think it's decent. That rocks about as tall as the hero and quite a bit longer. About large car size? And she does it multiple times while fighting colicoids. Just saying, its not like she has no TK feats.....


But of course, the big thing is beating Vitiate and ragdolling him. I really can't see an argument for freaking Anakin to overpower her when Vitiate couldn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys

That dome was damaged by blasterfire and bringing down a dome isn't even that hard.
Considering the HoT has never done anything comparable, I fail to see how your opinion on how geometry works is relevant.

That's a little aggressive. The HoT is merely held back by limited exposure and by being mostly a defensive fighter instead of a Force mage. She's demonstrated power beyond Anakin's non-Mortis showings, resisting Sel Makor and Vitiate's mental attacks and other powers. Like I've pointed out, ragdolling Vitiate and defeating him is > Anakin in my estimation. And like I said, that's not Anakin's usual level of ability.

@Neph, Anakin and Kenobi lift/throw similar sized boulders in "Dooku Captured" when they're in the caves of Vanqor.

But the Hero ripped them out of the ceiling.

Originally posted by carthage
It doesn't matter to me if you think they're "exaggerated. What has Hero done other than bring down rocks? You made the claim that the Hero has superior telekinetic feats, now back it up. I'm also loling @ the double standard, Bane hasn't replicate his telekinetic showings on nexuses yet that doesn't stop posters here from citing them as examples of his power in spite of him never replicating them anywhere.

As usual, you ignore the points you can't refute (or at least apparently can't). In RotS, Anakin was only as good as Kenobi with TK. That's G-Canon, which trumps every other form of canon. That includes the pics you posted. So, unless you can prove to me Kenobi can replicate what Anakin did in the cartoon, your argument is rendered invalid.

The difference with Bane is that it has yet to be proven exactly how much a specific nexus amps the power of the Sith or Jedi. We can only guess. This isn't a nexus we're talking about here. It's a cartoon. Say whatever you want, but that cartoon mini-series does depict extremely exaggerated Force powers that have yet to be replicated anywhere else. If you can't see that, well, I honestly don't know what to tell you. I can acknowledge what I see in the cartoon as long as it's not contradicting higher canon. In this case, it is.

And honestly, what's the matter with you? I ask you to keep things civil and to avoid making this personal by acting like a jerk and calling people names and you don't even respond to that. And you keep 'loling' at people's arguments. Shitty attitude.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But the Hero ripped them out of the ceiling.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/esdpva.png

There's only so much of your bullshit I can take Neph, stick to TOR in terms of ranking characters. Anakin collapses a massive dome with a screen, moves massive weapon platforms, and huge statues. MaulThe Hero isn't on his level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But the Hero ripped them out of the ceiling. True, but Anakin lifted about 4 or 5 of similar sized boulders off of him, and lifted about 5 or 6 effortlessly trying to defend against a gundark. Personally, I find that more impressive than what Hero did in the video you linked.

I'd also like to note that Dooku collapsed a pretty massive cave entrance in the same episode.

http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/esdpva.png

The Hero defeated and ragdolled the guy who shitstomped Revan.

Also I checked out the episode and those rocks weren't as big.


Originally posted by |King Joker|
True, but Anakin lifted about 4 or 5 of similar sized boulders off of him, and lifted about 5 or 6 effortlessly trying to defend against a gundark. Personally, I find that more impressive than what Hero did in the video you linked.

I'd also like to note that Dooku collapsed a pretty massive cave entrance in the same episode.

They weren't similar sized. Collectively they were about as big. And the rocks they threw at the gundark weren't as big either. Besides, all I said was that it was a decent feat. I just wanted to prove the Hero has some good TK feats and isn't completely featless.

Dooku is stronger than Anakin though.

They were pretty big, dude.

ixa25h-_FUI

Were they? Obi-Wan throws one thats a bit smaller than him. The rest seemed similarly sized.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
t that cartoon mini-series does depict extremely exaggerated Force powers that have yet to be replicated anywhere else. If you can't see that, well, I honestly don't know what to tell you. I can acknowledge what I see in the cartoon as long as it's not contradicting higher canon. In this case, it is.
I'm not sure if that's a good policy tbh. 90% percent of EU contradicted the higher canon.

Besides, everything apart from the movies in now non-canon. It's a free for all.

@Neph, the boulders Anakin lifts at 0:32 each was probably a little bit smaller than the one Hero ripped from the ceiling, but collectively they're clearly quite a bit larger, IMO.

The one Kenobi lifted seems smaller to me.

I can barely see the boulders at 0.32. They don't look collectively larger. And he's just lifting them.

Like I said though, I don't care. I only said as powerful with TK and afterwards I only mentioned that feat to shut Newguy up about the Hero not having any impressive TK feats.

Marco's video quality is shit, go watch it on Netflix.

Okay, then.

I'm thinking Anakin wins the boulder toss game.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4109496-8993656439-21391.jpg

For a gauge of how large the droid and boulder were:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4109497-2730731731-21391.jpg

Originally posted by ILS
I'm thinking Anakin wins the boulder toss game.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4109496-8993656439-21391.jpg

For a gauge of how large the droid and boulder were:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4109497-2730731731-21391.jpg
Nice find.

Anakin > HoT

Was originally posted by Silver to my knowledge,

Originally posted by ILS
I'm thinking Anakin wins the boulder toss game.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4109496-8993656439-21391.jpg

For a gauge of how large the droid and boulder were:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4109497-2730731731-21391.jpg

Uh, that second thing looks like perspective being funny. In the top panel he's the same size as those droids. The bottom one the droid is just closer to the perspective.

Also, lol a comparison between two feats doesn't prove either is better than the other flat out. Like I've repeatedly pointed out, the Hero has better TK feats than the boulder thing.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Everyone knows that in that cartoon Jedi powers are greatly exaggerated.

Yeah, feats from that cartoon are as exaggerated as those of TOR's if we are trying to compare them to those of the movies and TCW.

and yet in novels characters destroy star ships, and collapse buildings and literally shred people. The cartoons are sooooooooooooooooooooo Exaggerated

Lol now we're arguing what is more exaggerated? Seriously, nothing in the SW mythos is more exaggerated like what we see in that specific cartoon. And you know it. TOR or the novels don't even compare, let alone the movies. I'll give you videogames, such as KOTOR or KOTOR 2. But that's about it. Nothing tops the exaggeration seen in that mini-series.

And? That doesn't deny his point that everything is exaggerated... Regardless, the cartoon is just as canon as TOR. Anakin wins.

You haven't made any point at all you made the claim Hero has superior TK, failed to support it and or offer any superior feats to the ones I posted. Also this is an EU forum and the whole "G Cannon" appeal to authority fallacy is bunk. By your own logic Anakin wins by default since he's the only one to even exist in this fight, if you wanted to appeal to cannon (which is only the movies/novels relating to the movies/TCW show/Rebels/SOD comics. Also good for Kenobi that he stalemated Anakin?, that doesn't mean he's even with him in power. Anakin has superior telekinetic feats to Kenobi, and Kenobi has been constantly taken out by force users like Savage/Ventress/Maul all who have lesser telekinetic feats. You've provided nothing for Hero except him lifting boulders.



You're backtracking earlier you claimed that since Anakin can't replicate those showings, that somehow they're completely out of his ability to perform.


Anakin even without his OCW feats has collapsed a massive dome, moved a massive skiff, ragdolled Ventress, sent Dooku flying, ragdolled Barriss Offee, and still has superior telekinetic showings that occur without the need for amps. Calling a feat "exaggerated" when the character has shown power similar to that showing is bad logic, and that's still on top of not being a cohesive argument to begin with. Anakin has showings that are still comparable to his OCW feats, and still has the accolades to substantiate them. Bane off world has vastly inferior telekinetic showings that prove that the amp was substantial, i,e comparing toppling a temple to breaking boxes/tents on Ruusan/ hurling a massive stone on Dxun but only being able to throw couches/kill featless Sith lords. You can deny a nexus all you want, you're the only one cherrypicking evidence.




Ok?

Originally posted by ares834
And? That doesn't deny his point that everything is exaggerated... Regardless, the cartoon is just as canon as TOR. Anakin wins.
This.

Originally posted by ares834
Regardless, the cartoon is just as canon as TOR. Anakin wins.

Yep!

TOR hasn't been stated to be exaggerated like that cartoon has. Unless there's some proof that it's exaggerated, all that's nothing but baseless whinging. And there isn't explicit inconsistencies between characters portrayals in TOR and other works. There is for that CW cartoon. In the vast majority of their portrayals, the characters don't possess the levels shown in CW 2003. This is a completely false comparison and a point utterly without merit.

Even after all this time, you have the discretion of an avalanche. Might as well come out and say "I REALLY REALLY WANT ALL THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!!!"

Have the antics of Carthage and co. truly weathered away all pretense from you at this point? mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even after all this time, you have the discretion of an avalanche. Might as well come out and say "I REALLY REALLY WANT ALL THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!!!

Have the antics of Carthage and co. truly weathered away all pretense from you at this point? mmm
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/177/b/6/41765_loki_uhh_burn_gif_dq41_by_frespirit-d6atqz2.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even after all this time, you have the discretion of an avalanche. Might as well come out and say "I REALLY REALLY WANT ALL THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!!!"

Have the antics of Carthage and co. truly weathered away all pretense from you at this point? mmm http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/2227968/laughing-too-hard-o.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even after all this time, you have the discretion of an avalanche. Might as well come out and say "I REALLY REALLY WANT ALL THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!!!"

Have the antics of Carthage and co. truly weathered away all pretense from you at this point? mmm

PT characters won't suck without the 2003 feats. You know they can still be competitive with their feats in other materials, as this thread has demonstrated quite well. They already have the advantage of having more feats on an individual basis than most era's have combined. There's no need to rely on ridiculous outliers to establish their levels. Don't act as if I'm taking away your toys when the decks already stacked in your favor.

This has been a stance I've held for years, I'm not sure why you're so deluded in thinking this is a sudden transformation of mine. That I believe the most powerful Jedi in the swtor era is better than Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't indicate some incredible duplicity on my part.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even after all this time, you have the discretion of an avalanche. Might as well come out and say "I REALLY REALLY WANT ALL THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!!!"

Have the antics of Carthage and co. truly weathered away all pretense from you at this point? mmm

http://i.imgur.com//mpJVP0z.gif

So much win.

Hero of Tython wins this one.

She has more experience than Anakin in lightsabre duelling, has defeated a greater range of opponents and is most likely edges him out in technical skill too.

More importantly, she's smarter and a better tactician. Anakin's usual approach is charge in and hack away (he is capable of coming up with smart moves such as when he out-maneuvered Dooku and cut his hands off in ROTS but that isn't his usual MO). HoT can outwit and outfight him.

Also it's pretty sad how you people keep belittling Nephthys just for having his own opinions.

"I REALLY REALLY WANT ALL THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!!!" indeed. Just because he has a different opinion to you. Grow the heck up.

Nepthys, I salute you. Good for you on staying true to what you think.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Also it's pretty sad how people keep belittling Nephthys just for having his own opinions.

Yeah, "I REALLY WANT ALL OF THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!" as opposed to "I REALLY WANT ALL CHARACTERS NOT COMBATIVELY AFFILIATED WITH MOVIE CHARACTERS TO BE BENEATH DOOKU, AND MOST OF THEM TO BE BENEATH VENTRESS!!!!"

Thanks chilled.

And others.

The HOT literally doesn't stand a chance. It's kind of ridiculous that you people are arguing that she can win.

Originally posted by |King Joker|

I seriously don't understand how you people can say it's fine to just dismiss a canon source. The only person who's "exaggerated" in that is Windu, everyone else has perfectly matched showings in the rest of the EU.

Anakin ragdolled Ventress like she was nothing, and outdueled count Dooku pretty hastily. He is above the HOT in every way.

Originally posted by Selenial
I seriously don't understand how you people can say it's fine to just dismiss a canon source. The only person who's "exaggerated" in that is Windu, everyone else has perfectly matched showings in the rest of the EU.

Anakin ragdolled Ventress like she was nothing, and outdueled count Dooku pretty hastily. He is above the HOT in every way.

I'm not dismissing it, just asking that we accept that it's not representative of character's abilities given that it's so exaggerated and contrary to how the vast majority of their portrayals show them as. And has literally been said to be exaggerated portrayals.

And the Hero brushed off Sel Makor like he was nothing and ragdolled Vitiate after defeating him. Both times in the heart of their power. I'm pretty sure two godlike entities > Ventress and Dooku.

Source, quote, etc please. And since it matches with Anakin's other showings it's fine.

Has Sel Makor actually done anything impressive? Literally everyone who Hes tried to dominate has beaten him. And vitiate was weakened and defeated, that's not surprising.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh? Which revelations?

That dome was damaged by blasterfire and bringing down a dome isn't even that hard. Its large size would work against it, since more weight it being supported by the lower portions. Weakening the bottom could cause the whole thing to collapse. Besides which, that was an involuntary display of power and it's less impressive than what the Barsen'thor or the Vitiate the Hero fought were capable of and both are inferior to the Hero.


Wow you've fallen low. You're actually arguing that moving a ****ing boulder is more impressive than bringing down a cathedral sized dome...what do I even say to this?

Originally posted by Selenial
Source, quote, etc please. And since it matches with Anakin's other showings it's fine.

Has Sel Makor actually done anything impressive? Literally everyone who Hes tried to dominate has beaten him. And vitiate was weakened and defeated, that's not surprising.

No it doesn't, lol. And I'm not wasting time looking for those sources, we all know it's true and has been stated many times.

He's created monsters out of thin air as well as avatars that are superior to any Voss Mystic. He also had enough power to perform planet-scale attacks and was said to be a threat to all existence if he escaped. Plus he was able to contain Vitiate with Vitiate unable to destroy him. Sel Makor is clearly a monstrously powerful being, the collective darkside of two species. AND they were in the heart of the Nightmare Lands which can turn even Jedi and Sith Lords to gibbering insanity. A place formed from Sel Makor's power. And the Hero was also weakened and worn out from fighting through legions of Sith and Imperial Guards on Dromund Kaas. Plus Vitiate had time to recover.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wow you've fallen low. You're actually arguing that moving a ****ing boulder is more impressive than bringing down a cathedral sized dome...what do I even say to this?

No, I'm not.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah, "I REALLY WANT ALL OF THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!" as opposed to "I REALLY WANT ALL CHARACTERS NOT COMBATIVELY AFFILIATED WITH MOVIE CHARACTERS TO BE BENEATH DOOKU, AND MOST OF THEM TO BE BENEATH VENTRESS!!!!"

LOL

Be combatively affiliated with PT or gtfo, tbh.

what about characters from after the movies are they fine?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't, lol. And I'm not wasting time looking for those sources, we all know it's true and has been stated many times.
Your credibility is going down the drain, broski.

They're combat affiliated with Luke and Caedus so they're okay. It's basically just anyone without a connection to the Skywalker family tree that sucks ass.

Right DMB?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your credibility is going down the drain, broski.

Whereas I'm currently defending you from accusations of being a mere troll. Right.....

Originally posted by ILS
They're combat affiliated with Luke and Caedus so they're okay. It's basically just anyone without a connection to the Skywalker family tree that sucks ass.

Right DMB?

oh man phew

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whereas I'm currently defending you from accusations of being a mere troll. Right.....
I have no problems with your opinions...

I have problems with you being a dick with those opinions.


There's a difference.

I'm not being a dick, I'm just being lazy and apathetic. My statement wasn't any ruder and more aggressive than hers.

Given the circumstances, that's probably not the best move.

Thanks for the advice. I hope I don't waste all my good note-taking pens jotting down your pearls of wisdom. So majestic! Much beard!


(^ Neph getting super rudenasty up in here)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanks chilled.

And others.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah, "I REALLY WANT ALL OF THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!" as opposed to "I REALLY WANT ALL CHARACTERS NOT COMBATIVELY AFFILIATED WITH MOVIE CHARACTERS TO BE BENEATH DOOKU, AND MOST OF THEM TO BE BENEATH VENTRESS!!!!"



facepalm

Originally posted by Selenial
I seriously don't understand how you people can say it's fine to just dismiss a canon source. The only person who's "exaggerated" in that is Windu, everyone else has perfectly matched showings in the rest of the EU.

Anakin ragdolled Ventress like she was nothing, and outdueled count Dooku pretty hastily. He is above the HOT in every way.


Well the creators of the cartoon did say that under extreme circumstances, force users were shown to unleash themselves.

That said, Windu's feats in the 'minis' only looked more flashy compared to TCW, but in all seriousness, I don't see how force waving a bunch of frozen droids is all that over the top compared to his showings in TCW. The newer series had him pushing over ET-AT walkers. Considering the size and weight of the walker, blasting away a very large army of droids with a force wave shouldn't be beneath him. Smashing two droids into thousands of pieces by clinching his fist in the 'minis?' He's done that to dozens of them with a one handed force push in the newer series as well; not to mention lifting a massive platform and then crushing a separatist war vehicle like an ant with it.

His mile long jumps were perhaps the only exaggerations. Even blasting away hundreds of battle droids in conjunction with Yoda was replicated by Maul and Savage on hundreds of soldiers in a TCW tie-in comic.

Why do you even need the 2003 feats then?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why do you even need the 2003 feats then?


Same reason you need game mechanic feats.

When do we ignore feats? The 'minis' are part of the Legends continuity.

Anakin still crushes him like an insect even without them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well the creators of the cartoon did say that under extreme circumstances, force users were shown to unleash themselves.

That said, Windu's feats in the 'minis' only looked more flashy compared to TCW, but in all seriousness, I don't see how force waving a bunch of frozen droids is all that over the top compared to his showings in TCW. The newer series had him pushing over ET-AT walkers. Considering the size and weight of the walker, blasting away a very large army of droids with a force wave shouldn't be beneath him. Smashing two droids into thousands of pieces by clinching his fist in the 'minis?' He's done that to dozens of them with a one handed force push in the newer series as well; not to mention lifting a massive platform and then crushing a separatist war vehicle like an ant with it.

His mile long jumps were perhaps the only exaggerations. Even blasting away hundreds of battle droids in conjunction with Yoda was replicated by Maul and Savage on hundreds of soldiers in a TCW tie-in comic.
These are very good points, S66.

Tbh I always found OCW to be in the same boat as, say, KOTOR or TFU.

Thanks, Stigma.

Also, I meant 'micro,' not 'minis.'

How is KotOR exaggerated? And TFU is well above OCW or KotOR both.

Go home, Stigma, you're drunk.

They're not when taking the whole EU into consideration.

I'm guessing he meant that in terms of what they show as far as force usage, they're not too far apart.

Aside from Nihilus, I don't see how. And that guy was meant to be a freak who artificially boosted his level of power beyond mortal levels.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They're not when taking the whole EU into consideration.

I'm guessing he meant that in terms of what they show as far as force usage, they're not too far apart.
Uh, yeah they are. In KotOR, Jedi are about as weak as I've seen them outside of TCW or the movies. Even if you take KotOR 2 into account, besides Nihilus, Traya, or Dark!Exile, everyone else is weak. There's no comparison at all.

Most of sources are exaggerated. There are fery few which are comperable to the movies in terms of characters' abilities. TCW, Rebels are some of them. Majority of Republic comics were consistent with the movies. Luceno's books as well (as I remember).
But every source, where people can turn other people into ashes by FL is exaggerated. ROTS Sidious was the strongest Sith Lord in history, and he couldn't replace that feat against Windu or Luke in the movies.

CW is terribly exaggerated. But there are sources, that are exaggerated far more. KOTOR 2 for example. And other sources (comics as I remember) about Nihilus. Almost all about Vitiate as well.

CW is easier to judge only because it's a source from movies ERA.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Go home, Stigma, you're drunk.
Nah, man. I'm stoned. Just chillin'
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm guessing he meant that in terms of what they show as far as force usage, they're not too far apart.
Precisely.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even if you take KotOR 2 into account, besides Nihilus, Traya, or Dark!Exile, everyone else is weak. There's no comparison at all.
True, but N. takes it to another frikkin level in comparison to the movies or OCW.

Nihilus is acceptable though. He's not just strong becuz. He's just using a specialised technique that makes him escalatingly more powerful. The more he drains, the more powerful he is, the more he can drain.

Also he's not even on another level. Remember that padawan that held up a Star Destroyer?

Originally posted by Nephthys
PT characters won't suck without the 2003 feats. You know they can still be competitive with their feats in other materials, as this thread has demonstrated quite well. They already have the advantage of having more feats on an individual basis than most era's have combined. There's no need to rely on ridiculous outliers to establish their levels. Don't act as if I'm taking away your toys when the decks already stacked in your favor.

This has been a stance I've held for years, I'm not sure why you're so deluded in thinking this is a sudden transformation of mine. That I believe the most powerful Jedi in the swtor era is better than Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't indicate some incredible duplicity on my part.

Since we're adopting a cards metaphor, let me simply say that just because mine is the better hand doesn't give you leave to alter the rules at your leisure and selectively apply them.

Also, stances like this probably don't help you on the whole nexus front. As usual, you expect a magnanimity from your opponent that you're unwilling to reciprocate.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah, "I REALLY WANT ALL OF THE PT CHARACTERS TO SUCK!" as opposed to "I REALLY WANT ALL CHARACTERS NOT COMBATIVELY AFFILIATED WITH MOVIE CHARACTERS TO BE BENEATH DOOKU, AND MOST OF THEM TO BE BENEATH VENTRESS!!!!"



First, calm down.

Second, don't calm down: your anger is gratifying. 313

Third, say what you want about my opinion of Bane {since we know that's what this is really about}, but the standard by which I judge Bane {nexuses}, I judge all other characters. As Neph says, the deck ultimately plays to my advantage, so I don't need to use double standards or play dirty to win debates like these.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also he's not even on another level. Remember that padawan that held up a Star Destroyer?

Ha ha -.-
WTF Neph, is it a bad joke, or double standards?

Originally posted by McP
Ha ha -.-
WTF Neph, is it a bad joke, or double standards?

Like I said, Nihilus has a reason he's so powerful and is constantly touted as being so powerful he's he's barely even a mortal being anymore and who operates on a level beyond normal perceptions. That he is that strong is more or less the driving force behind his whole character.

Rivi-Anu is just some random padawan who's never mentioned again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like I said, Nihilus has a reason he's so powerful and is constantly touted as being so powerful he's he's barely even a mortal being anymore and who operates on a level beyond normal perceptions. That he is that strong is more or less the driving force behind his whole character.

Rivi-Anu is just some random padawan who's never mentioned again.

A novel paradigm. You ever consider artistic license and creative intent with characters not named Nihilus or not set before the prequel era?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Since we're adopting a cards metaphor, let me simply say that just because mine is the better hand doesn't give you leave to alter the rules at your leisure and selectively apply them.

Also, stances like this probably don't help you on the whole nexus front. As usual, you expect a magnanimity from your opponent that you're unwilling to reciprocate.

Which is why I pointed out that I'm not doing this at my leisure and have maintained this position for like 3 or 4 years by now. Did you.... even read what I said? :?

I don't so much expect this to be blindly accepted as I do actually argue my point of view. Constantly. For years. :I

Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, calm down.

Second, don't calm down: your anger is gratifying. 313

Third, say what you want about my opinion of Bane {since we know that's what this is really about}, but the standard by which I judge Bane {nexuses}, I judge all other characters. As Neph says, the deck ultimately plays to my advantage, so I don't need to use double standards or play dirty to win debates like these.

I don't see how DMB mimicking something you said indicates he's angry. He's just making a point.

And you could try to be less smug about the idea that these debates are unfairly stacked in your favor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A novel paradigm. You ever consider artistic license and creative intent with characters not named Nihilus or not set before the prequel era?

Sure. I suspect it was maaaybe a One-with-the-Force moment, like maybe thats what they were going for but like, theres nothing really indicating that and idk am I giving them too much credit? It just seems to be usual 2003 CW shenanigans. So many shenanigans.

Also what? Artistic license is all like my whole point. It's all like exaggerated because its all up and made crazy by the artist to make it motherf*cking more awesome and shit.

I know who Rivi-Anu is. And no, Nihilus shouldn't be that strong. That's all.

And even excluding his drain power, Kreia said, that "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense".
She was possilby talking about Forc sever. Which would make Kreia and Nihilus superior technical Force users to Sidious. But wait, that a BS. Force sever isn't unstopable, just as Nihilus' drain isn't. It was consider as such only because in that shitty era there were no guys without pathetic Force's guard or pathetic Force defenses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why I pointed out that I'm not doing this at my leisure and have maintained this position for like 3 or 4 years by now. Did you.... even read what I said? :?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't so much expect this to be blindly accepted as I do actually argue my point of view. Constantly. For years. :I

Yes, yes, you've maintained the position that feats you don't like from the prequel/original era are exaggerated and don't count. That's selective application. At least with nexuses, I'll hold Sidious to the same standard. uhuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how DMB mimicking something you said indicates he's angry. He's just making a point.

You... don't see his anger? Your willful ignorance is most certainly not gratifying. ahuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you could try to be less smug about the idea that these debates are unfairly stacked in your favor.

Who said anything about "unfairly"? It's not my fault that the characters you like largely constitute a rogues gallery of nobodies and obscurities that will be forgotten in the next decade whereas characters I like are by and large well-received, popular, memorable, and important in the grand scheme of things and are portrayed accordingly.

Maybe you and Dmb should consider joining my camp? excellent

{Except Turr Phennir, goddammit.}

But like I said, it doesn't change anything. The fact that some characters have more exposure than others isn't grounds to carve into the source material as a means of equalizing things.

Originally posted by McP
I know who Rivi-Anu is. And no, Nihilus shouldn't be that strong. That's all.

And even excluding his drain power, Kreia said, that "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense".
She was possilby talking about Forc sever. Which would make Kreia and Nihilus superior technical Force users to Sidious. But wait, that a BS. Force sever isn't unstopable, just as Nihilus' drain isn't. It was consider as such only because in that shitty era there were no guys without pathetic Force's guard or pathetic Force defenses.

Well you're a big o laughs.

Please explain to me why Nihilus shouldn't be that strong. I fail to see the illogic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well you're a big o laughs.

mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please explain to me why Nihilus shouldn't be that strong. I fail to see the illogic.

I'll play Devil's advocate here and reframe the question. Why, when considering creative intent as you did earlier, should Nihilus or Vitiate or any character not named The Son be as or more powerful than Darth Sidious, the Big Bad of the saga? The guy who in George's words represents "The Devil"?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, yes, you've maintained the position that feats you don't like from the prequel/original era are exaggerated and don't count. That's selective application. At least with nexuses, I'll hold Sidious to the same standard. uhuh

Please, keep saying that its just because I don't like them. You haven't quite strawmanned me enough yet. That you don't even try to argue the realities and resort to piss-poor personal attacks amuses me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You... don't see his anger? Your willful ignorance is most certainly not gratifying. ahuh

No more than yours. But then, you've a habit of deluding yourself about how affected you've made people to gratify your ego.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who said anything about "unfairly"? It's not my fault that the characters you like largely constitute a rogues gallery of nobodies and obscurities that will be forgotten in the next decade whereas characters I like are by and large well-received, popular, memorable, and important in the grand scheme of things and are portrayed accordingly.

Maybe you and Dmb should consider joining my camp? excellent

{Except Turr Phennir, goddammit.}

But like I said, it doesn't change anything. The fact that some characters have more exposure than others isn't grounds to carve into the source material as a means of equalizing things.

Nor have I used that fact as grounds to do. I'm merely pointing out that you acting sooooo wounded by my utter unfairness and double standards rings a bit hollow in the face of that fact. And accusations of me "wanting PT characters to suck" is just laughable considering it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But then, you've a habit of deluding yourself about how affected you've made people to gratify your ego.


LOL pretty much Tempest in one sentence.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm



I'll play Devil's advocate here and reframe the question. Why, when considering creative intent as you did earlier, should Nihilus or Vitiate or any character not named The Son be as or more powerful than Darth Sidious, the Big Bad of the saga? The guy who in George's words represents "The Devil"?

I'm not necessarily talking about in narrative terms. Nor did I say anything about him being as good or better than Sidious. Bringing him up is a complete red herring. But Sidious being the Big Bad doesn't mean he has to be the bestest at everything and be completely unrivaled. Lucas himself already made 3 characters that eclipses him. Take Star Trek, Khan was also meant to represent Satan. But they never had any issues with creating characters who were smarter, or physically superior or larger threats than him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll play Devil's advocate here and reframe the question. Why, when considering creative intent as you did earlier, should Nihilus or Vitiate or any character not named The Son be as or more powerful than Darth Sidious, the Big Bad of the saga? The guy who in George's words represents "The Devil"?

That's my point, thanks. I would only add "the guy who is stated to be the strongest Sith in history by many sources".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please, keep saying that its just because I don't like them. You haven't quite strawmanned me enough yet. That you don't even try to argue the realities and resort to piss-poor personal attacks amuses me.

Oh of course you're "amused."

http://media.giphy.com/media/pzmTB7cwkfx0Q/giphy.gif

If the standard involved more than your petty dislike, you'd have applied it elsewhere. That you don't and in fact refuse to tells me all I need to know about your agenda here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No more than yours. But then, you've a habit of deluding yourself about how affected you've made people to gratify your ego.

You may pretend that you and Dmb aren't well known for outage and tantrums, if you wish. excellent

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nor have I used that fact as grounds to do. I'm merely pointing out that you acting sooooo wounded by my utter unfairness and double standards rings a bit hollow in the face of that fact. And accusations of me "wanting PT characters to suck" is just laughable considering it.

Your reputation speaks for itself, my son. My issue with you using double standards is that it doesn't actually do you any good, since you can't win anyway, and only serves to obstruct meaningful dialogue.

In other words, assume our conversations are a penis and it ejaculates The Truth. Your antics constitute a particularly distressing case of The Clap. uhuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not necessarily talking about in narrative terms. Nor did I say anything about him being as good or better than Sidious. Bringing him up is a complete red herring.

Well we're not debating this, it's just an enlightening conversation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But Sidious being the Big Bad doesn't mean he has to be the bestest at everything and be completely unrivaled.

What does it mean, then? mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lucas himself already made 3 characters that eclipses him. Take Star Trek, Khan was also meant to represent Satan. But they never had any issues with creating characters who were smarter, or physically superior or larger threats than him.

Where was Khan said to represent Satan?

Tempest is like an uncute version of Ant.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Tempest is like an uncute version of Ant.

Well that was extraordinarily hurtful.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Oh of course you're "amused."

http://media.giphy.com/media/pzmTB7cwkfx0Q/giphy.gif

If the standard involved more than your petty dislike, you'd have applied it elsewhere. That you don't and in fact refuse to tells me all I need to know about your agenda here.

I have, with TFU. Which I happened to like. I just recognise that it's absurdly exaggerated. Which is the whole point. Just like the whole point of the OCW was to be as over the top as possible, like Samurai Jack. I can't think of anything else that was purposefully exaggerated. Otherwise I probably would apply the same standards.

In fact, that I don't apply it elsewhere just proves that I'm not doing it out of mere dislike. There are other things I dislike that I don't try to call shenanigans on. Dark Empire, a few of the Luke things etc. I only apply it to the cases were its clear that the material is an exaggeration.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You may pretend that you and Dmb aren't well known for outage and tantrums, if you wish. excellent

You mean known to you. Because you keep giggling to yourself about how supa mad you made us. Suuuure.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your reputation speaks for itself, my son. My issue with you using double standards is that it doesn't actually do you any good, since you can't win anyway, and only serves to obstruct meaningful dialogue.

In other words, assume our conversations are a penis and it ejaculates The Truth. Your antics are constitute particularly distressing case of The Clap. uhuh

Well I'm pretty sure that's not your actual issue but ok whatever.

And I'm not as familiar with STD's as you evidently are so I have no clue what that means but I'm pretty sure you're just dropping the point so ok whatever x 2.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well we're not debating this, it's just an enlightening conversation.



What does it mean, then? mmm



Where was Khan said to represent Satan?

But it still had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Other than that you clearly feel so threatened by Nihilus' power that him surpassing Sidious is a readily apparent issue to you.

That he just happens to be the biggest bad guy for the movies. You're attaching unwarranted importance in his abilities.

One of the big themes of the movie is that it's a parallel with Paradise Lost. There's a copy on Khan's bookshelf. It's less obvious than the Moby Dick thing but it's clearly there. Khan's the Lucifer standin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have, with TFU. Which I happened to like. I just recognise that it's absurdly exaggerated. Which is the whole point. Just like the whole point of the OCW was to be as over the top as possible, like Samurai Jack. I can't think of anything else that that was purposefully exaggerated.

In fact, that I don't apply it elsewhere just proves that I'm not doing it out of mere dislike. There are other things I dislike that I don't try to call shenanigans on. Dark Empire, a few of the Luke things etc. I only apply it to the cases were its clear that the material is an exaggeration.

Ah, our endless dance. You keep shouting "it's not selective!" but that's all you've ever revealed it to be. A selective recognition.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean known to you. Because you keep giggling to yourself about how supa mad you made us. Suuuure.

You've gone on-record before how I get under your skin. I like to think it's still residual sexual tension.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your actual issue but ok whatever.

And I'm not as familiar with STD's as you evidently are so I have no clue what that means but I'm pretty sure you're just dropping the point so ok whatever x 2.

{insert obligatory "your mom" joke here, I'm too lazy atm}

Originally posted by Nephthys
But it still had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Other than you feel so threatened by Nihilus' power that him surpassing Sidious is an apparent issue to you.

McP seemed to find it germane to your conversation. You two were discussing characters and creative intent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That he just happens to be the biggest bad guy for the movies. You're attaching unwarranted importance in his abilities.

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/02/Facepalm-Animated-GIF.gif

So Nihilus is supposed to be cosmically crazy powerful and a threat to all existence and other wanktastic appellations per creative intent whereas Palpatine is just supposed to be the biggest movie bad guy...?

Can't help but detect a conservative interpretation when it comes to my man Palps, Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys
One of the big themes of the movie is that it's a parallel with Paradise Lost. There's a copy on Khan's bookshelf. It's less obvious than the Moby Dick thing but it's clearly there. Khan's the Lucifer standin.

Well... that's a bit disingenuous, isn't it? Clearly Lucas wasn't evoking the depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost as a vaguely anti-heroic tragic protagonist, but the Biblical Devil of the Judeo-Christian faith.

Bit different.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ah, our endless dance. You keep shouting "it's not selective!" but that's all you've ever revealed it to be. A selective recognition.

That sure is a statement that doesn't respond to anything I said!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You've gone on-record before how I get under your skin. I like to think it's still residual sexual tension.



{insert obligatory "your mom" joke here, I'm too lazy atm}

Bluh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
McP seemed to find it germane to your conversation. You two were discussing characters and creative intent.

Then he should have brought it up, instead of you butting in and dropping it at random.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/02/Facepalm-Animated-GIF.gif

So Nihilus is supposed to be cosmically crazy powerful and a threat to all existence and other wanktastic appellations per creative intent whereas Palpatine is just supposed to be the biggest movie bad guy...?

Can't help but detect a conservative interpretation when it comes to my man Palps, Neph.

Like I said, Nihilus' immense power is pretty much the basis for his character and most of the time devoted to him is in building him up as a threat because of his godlike power that makes the player feel hopelessly outmatched. Which is supposed to make it more satisfying when you beat him. The threat he represents is his power.

Sidious however, is mainly a threat because of his political power and skills at manipulation. His power is basically never mentioned or indicated outside of him obviously needing to be superior to Vader, Maul and Dooku since they're his apprentices. So narratively there's no need for him to be godly powerful and the best in history. He just needs to be powerful enough to do the things he does and to be a match for Yoda as the leader of their respective Order's. Lucas puts no special emphasis on Sidious' power like Nihilus gets.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well... that's a bit disingenuous, isn't it? Clearly Lucas wasn't evoking the depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost as a vaguely anti-heroic tragic protagonist, but the Biblical Devil of the Judeo-Christian faith.

Bit different.

And Lucas invokes that through his seduction of Anakin and that he's really ****ing evil and he loves it, not through his power.

Neph, you still don't get it. I consider feats like killing the whole planet by a voice, giga-drain, idea of Force sever being unstopable technique and telekinetically holding a ship in one piece as exaggerations far worse, then old CW.

Sidious is called "the most powerful Sith Lord in history", and that quote concerns on his battle abilities. Every source, that suggest that Nihilus, Vitiate or anyone else had superior feats to Sidious is just an exaggeration.

And your another response to me is not necessary. You wont be able to find nothing, that would change my mind. I wont be able to change your mind as well.

.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That sure is a statement that doesn't respond to anything I said!

Sure it is. You say it's not selective, I say it is. When you start rifling through non-movie eras in the EU with the same standard, we'll talk. But you don't. And why you don't has already been made clear: you think the deck is "unfairly" stacked against you and believe the removal of "outlier" feats and sources will help you gain some footing.

That's textbook agenda there, my son.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bluh.

Well said.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Then he should have brought it up, instead of you butting in and dropping it at random.

You want a private exchange? Take it to PMs. Otherwise, it's fodder for the rest of us to butt in and do as well please. excellent

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like I said, Nihilus' immense power is pretty much the basis for his character and most of the time devoted to him is in building him up as a threat because of his godlike power that makes the player feel hopelessly outmatched. Which is supposed to make it more satisfying when you beat him. The threat he represents is his power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bluh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious however, is mainly a threat because of his political power and skills at manipulation. His power is basically never mentioned or indicated outside of him obviously needing to be superior to Vader, Maul and Dooku since they're his apprentices. So narratively there's no need for him to be godly powerful and the best in history. He just needs to be powerful enough to do the things he does and to be a match for Yoda as the leader of their respective Order's. Lucas puts no special emphasis on Sidious' power like Nihilus gets.

Sidious's power is never mentioned or indicated?

Given that canon!Sith philosophy apparently revolves around the concept of superiority, you do realize I could make the argument that Sidious has to ultimately be the best Sith Lord by virtue of his position as the reigning Master?

It seems that your spontaneous cataracts impede you here, as well. Face it, dude. Palpatine's position requires him to be the best Sith Lord. He's the guy who actually wins. He's gotta be smarter, stronger, faster, more agile, more skilled, more patient, more knowledgeable, and better looking than his apprentices or predecessors. The only evil doer who's better is the actual living manifestation of the dark side.

You're goofy. But thanks for proving my point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Lucas invokes that through his seduction of Anakin and that he's really ****ing evil and he loves it, not through his power.

Pretty sure Jabba The Hutt would qualify then. Or Tarkin. Or Grievous. Or any other inherently malevolent figure. Stop being silly. Palpatine's great power is inherent to the character.

Originally posted by McP
Neph, you still don't get it. I consider feats like killing the whole planet by a voice, giga-drain, idea of Force sever being unstopable technique and telekinetically holding a ship in one piece as exaggerations far worse, then old CW.

Sidious is called "the most powerful Sith Lord in history", and that quote concerns on his battle abilities. Every source, that suggest that Nihilus, Vitiate or anyone else had superior feats to Sidious is just an exaggeration.

And your another response to me is not necessary. You wont be able to find nothing, that would change my mind. I wont be able to change your mind as well. well Nihilus can wipe out an entire planet in an hour a feat still beyond Sidious. So call it exaggerated all you want, he has better feats

Originally posted by WildBantha88
he has better feats

You sure about that?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You sure about that? the thing that comes closest to nihilus draining entire planets is his DE Force Storms but even that couldn't wipe out a planet in one go. So yea superior feats

Force Storm is a more impressive feat. And while Nihilus was great at applying drain on masses, we don't know if he can do it against very powerful individuals.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
the thing that comes closest to nihilus draining entire planets is his DE Force Storms but even that couldn't wipe out a planet in one go. So yea superior feats

Who says it couldn't?

Originally posted by Sinious
Force Storm is a more impressive feat. And while Nihilus was great at applying drain on masses, we don't know if he can do it against very powerful individuals. you mean like Kreia?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who says it couldn't?

facepalm

Originally posted by McP
Neph, you still don't get it. I consider feats like killing the whole planet by a voice, giga-drain, idea of Force sever being unstopable technique and telekinetically holding a ship in one piece as exaggerations far worse, then old CW.

Sidious is called "the most powerful Sith Lord in history", and that quote concerns on his battle abilities. Every source, that suggest that Nihilus, Vitiate or anyone else had superior feats to Sidious is just an exaggeration.

And your another response to me is not necessary. You wont be able to find nothing, that would change my mind. I wont be able to change your mind as well.

I'm not sure you understand what an exaggeration is. :T

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sure it is. You say it's not selective, I say it is. When you start rifling through non-movie eras in the EU with the same standard, we'll talk. But you don't. And why you don't has already been made clear: you think the deck is "unfairly" stacked against you and believe the removal of "outlier" feats and sources will help you gain some footing.

That's textbook agenda there, my son.

But you didn't address anything I said. I pointed out that if I were using it selectively, I'd actually use it selectively and not just in cases where the exaggeration is readily apparent and explicit. MCP is the guy who wants to use it selectively. Did you see his rants about how inferior other era's are and that their good feats should just be dismissed? Hilarious.

Look, ok I'll bite. Enlighten me: Which materials should I randomly proclaim are exaggerated? There's nothing indicating exaggerations in other era's that I can tell. So you tell me. If it'll shut you up, I'm all ears.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well said.

Nothing to say anything to.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You want a private exchange? Take it to PMs. Otherwise, it's fodder for the rest of us to butt in and do as well please. excellent

I never said that you couldn't, I just pointing out that you butting into my conversation and then changing the subject kind of makes your input pretty dumb.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious's power is never mentioned or indicated?

Given that canon!Sith philosophy apparently revolves around the concept of superiority, you do realize I could make the argument that Sidious has to ultimately be the best Sith Lord by virtue of his position as the reigning Master?

It seems that your spontaneous cataracts impede you here, as well. Face it, dude. Palpatine's position requires him to be the best Sith Lord. He's the guy who actually wins. He's gotta be smarter, stronger, faster, more agile, more skilled, more patient, more knowledgeable, and better looking than his apprentices or predecessors. The only evil doer who's better is the actual living manifestation of the dark side.

You're goofy. But thanks for proving my point.

And why would he need to be the UBEREST EVAR :jazz hands: just because he's the reigning Sith Lord? I already pointed out that he only has to be the best Sith at the time. The concept of superiority only applies to the Sith seen in the movies. Yoda and Sidious are never implied to be the best in history, just the heads of their respective order. And it's not as if the movie suggests that Sidious needed to be the best in history to achieve what he did. In fact Sidious himself states that the Sith will "once more rule the galaxy", indicating that his accomplishment isn't unprecedented. And he admits that he couldn't achieve what his predecessor did. And like I said, his victories largely owed to his manipulation skills and political acumen. He literally just needs to be powerful enough to hold off Yoda and pwn Luke. He "won" because he tricked everyone and preyed on vulnerable people. There's nothing requiring him to be the best Sith based on his position in the narrative or story. Khan didn't beat Kirk because he was smarter and better than everyone else, he did it because it was narratively appropriate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty sure Jabba The Hutt would qualify then. Or Tarkin. Or Grievous. Or any other inherently malevolent figure. Stop being silly. Palpatine's great power is inherent to the character.

If they were the main villain I'm pretty sure they could qualify. If they story allowed them. It wouldn't quite be as good, because they lack the manipulative, seductive and devilish qualities that Sidious does, but if Lucas had given those qualities to them to make the same narrative figure there's nothing stopping them from being capable of holding the same thematic weight.

How does Sidious being very powerful tie into his "Devil" persona?

The only one who said the "miros" were exaggerated was Filoni, but then goes on to show force users hurling ships and whatnot. As I said, Windu's feats, which are considered by many to be the most exaggerated, aren't exaggerated next to his TCW feats, only flashier. It always looks for impressive taking out an army of enemies, especially when surrounded, but, again it's not a display of power beyond force pushing an ET-AT walker, and casually lifting a large platform heavy enough to crush a war vehicle. Smashing two battle droids into thousands of pieces in the micros is something he replicated on about a dozen of them with a one handed force push in TCW.

Some of it is inconsistent and exaggerated, but not for most of the characters we argue for. The feat Cart provided for Anakin was done with a lot of exertion, so even that isn't all that over the top when we consider his casual feats in TCW, and his domination of powerful force users. Anakin has always been depicted as a character who can pull off extreme feats in desperate situations.

Also, Sidious was depicted as the devil, needing a messiah like figure to bring about his downfall in order to restore balance back to the force. To have a villain being more powerful than him is inappropriate. There are a lot of villains who have similarities to the devil. However, as stated by Lucas, Sidious represents him, as in he's the big bad of the mythos, being depicted as the focal point through which the dark side operated, and his death diffusing it on a cosmic scale. We went over this Neph. The EU elaborated the point further by calling Sidious the dark side's most powerful expression (DE endnotes). To have a villain being more powerful than him is just as inappropriate as having another force user with a force potential greater than Anakin's. I mean, there are other villains who have surpassed him in power, but the case for Sidious's power is much greater than the case for Nihilus's.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, Sidious was depicted as the devil, needing a messiah like figure to bring about his downfall in order to restore balance back to the force. To have a villain being more powerful than him is inappropriate. There are a lot of villains who have similarities to the devil. However, as stated by Lucas, Sidious represents him, as in he's the big bad of the mythos, being depicted as the focal point through which the dark side operated, and his death diffusing it on a cosmic scale. We went over this Neph. The EU elaborated the point further by calling Sidious the dark side's most powerful expression (DE endnotes). To have a villain being more powerful than him is just as inappropriate as having another force user with a force potential greater than Anakin's. I mean, there are other villains who have surpassed him in power, but the case for Sidious's power is much greater than the case for Nihilus's.

^ More or less this.



And a whole lotta that^.

Your opinion of Sidious's station and importance is... wildly incongruous with not just what's been said of him by me, but by pretty much everyone in a position of authority at LucasFilm or Del Rey since time immemorial. It's clearly the manifestation of a deep-rooted grudge against the character or perhaps an unhealthy reaction to perceived Bane/SWTOR hate or {more probably} both.

Either way, you answered my question, so thanks. We'll obviously have to agree to disagree tho.