Kyle Katarn vs. Ki Adi Mundi

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carthage
Who gets REkt muffukas?

|King Joker|
*Ki-Adi-Mundi

carthage
??

|King Joker|
The hyphens, carthage. The hyphens.

carthage
Ah, ok Kyle-Katarn

|King Joker|
I think I hate you.

carthage
Anyone else?

chilled monkey
Kyle Katarn wipes the floor with him.

ILS
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Kyle Katarn wipes the floor with him. You could at least post a reason for such a bold claim. I mean, where's the creativity, man?

Happy Dance

chilled monkey
Originally posted by ILS
You could at least post a reason for such a bold claim. I mean, where's the creativity, man?

Happy Dance

Walked right into that one didn't I?

Okay, Kyle is a lot more skilled, more experienced, probably more powerful and has more options since he can use dark powers too.

Specifically he beat seven Dark Jedi with practically no training, has fought tons of dark-siders, including Reborn and Shadow Troopers, and Darth Caedus himself acknowledged him as a formidable foe.

Mundi has nothing on that.

ILS
Mundi held his own against Grievous with lots of poor circumstances, and lifted a skiff out of the sand. Thoughts?

NewGuy01
All of them excluding Jerec were feebs, and Kyle was never able to defeat him up front.



His feats never got any better later on, so I'm not sure how relevant that is.



Before curbing him and 4 other Jedi in less than 20 seconds.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by ILS
Mundi held his own against Grievous with lots of poor circumstances, and lifted a skiff out of the sand. Thoughts?

That's not bad but it's nothing compared to the stuff Kyle has pulled off.

Sure, holding his own against Grievous while exhausted and demoralised is good, but there's no doubt he would have died if the cavalry hadn't shown up. Kyle defeating a bunch of Dark Jedi with practically no training is way more impressive.

At most Mundi can hold off the inevitable for a bit before dying but that's about it.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by NewGuy01
All of them excluding Jerec were feebs, and Kyle was never able to defeat him up front.

By whose standard?

Sure Jerec's lot were "feebs" when compared to the real Aces (guys like Dooku, Maul etc.) but they were still trained Dark Jedi. Even an "average" Jedi/Dark Jedi is a formidable foe for the vast majority of people in the SW galaxy.

That's like saying a regular soldier is a "feeb" compared to a member of the SAS. Does that make him a "feeb" compared to everyone else?


Originally posted by ILS
Before curbing him and 4 other Jedi in less than 20 seconds.

Nope. In that fight they matched Caedus fairly well. Sure he had the upper hand but he certainly didn't "curb" them. Heck, even Mithric gave Caedus some trouble when he went nuts and started whaling on him. He had to work for that win. Plus he only beat Kyle due to manipulation of the environment (throwing a speeder at his back). Granted that is an example of superior tactical ingenuity but it still required an outside variable. He didn't win by just being a straight-up better duellist.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by chilled monkey
By whose standard?

The standard of a Council-level warhero like Mundi.



You do know that the text states Katarn would have lost his legs in the first 7 seconds were it not for his allies, right?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by NewGuy01
You do know that the text states Katarn would have lost his legs in the first 7 seconds were it not for his allies, right?

Yes. That's why I said "THEY matched Caedus fairly well." The entire group between them were able to put up a pretty decent fight.

At the very least they weren't "curbed." "Curbed" would be Caedus beating the entire team without effort which is not how it went.

ILS
Originally posted by chilled monkey
That's not bad but it's nothing compared to the stuff Kyle has pulled off.

Sure, holding his own against Grievous while exhausted and demoralised is good, but there's no doubt he would have died if the cavalry hadn't shown up. Kyle defeating a bunch of Dark Jedi with practically no training is way more impressive.

At most Mundi can hold off the inevitable for a bit before dying but that's about it. So, to summarize; you believe holding off Grievous, one of the best fighters in the mythos, while exhausted, at a form disadvantage due to Ataru being poor against multiple blades and being unfamiliar with Grievous' extremely unorthodox form, and while being at a physical disadvantage overall, is "nothing compared to" Kyle defeating 7 largely unexplored duelists and then improving to an unspecified degree later on?

Interesting.

Zenwolf
Dark Jedi are actually a pretty strong bunch, they aren't all powerful but even a skilled Jedi are hesitant against them, abit brief.



Considering the fact, that Kyle who wasn't quite a Jedi yet, it's pretty nice. Although Kyle does also have his Stormtrooper training to fall back on, so that would have also helped him out.

Still I find Mundi being more impressive regardless.

ILS
Thing is, Dark Jedi is an incredibly broad term, and you don't necessarily have to be skilled to acquire. That sourcebook is likely referring to a specific criteria of Dark Jedi opposed to all of them.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ILS
Thing is, Dark Jedi is an incredibly broad term, and you don't necessarily have to be skilled to acquire. That sourcebook is likely referring to a specific criteria of Dark Jedi opposed to all of them.

It's not. That was a generalized statement of a Dark Jedi, you then have the Reborn under it and then Dark Jedi Master.

carthage
At one point in the fight he fights three of them at once, nearly bifurcates Katarn, sends all of them flying, holds off Valin with one hand, and the text outrights states they're no match for him:



Prior to this Solo is throwing them around with TK, nearly cuts Katarn in half, notes they're interfering with each other and before Katarn goes down:






Also Katarn had help from Qu Rahn when he beat those Jedi, and he had some degree of Swordsmanship training at the imperial academy. So he wasn't going into those duels completely blind, one of those Dark Jedi even accidentally killed themselves with his own blaster. They all also got stomped by Qu Rahn, so they're hardly prizewinning fighters. Katarn doesn't really have much in comparison to Mundi.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by carthage
At one point in the fight he fights three of them at once, nearly bifurcates Katarn, sends all of them flying, holds off Valin with one hand, and the text outrights states they're no match for him:



Prior to this Solo is throwing them around with TK, nearly cuts Katarn in half, notes they're interfering with each other and before Katarn goes down:.


I stand correct.



Originally posted by carthage
Also Katarn had help from Qu Rahn when he beat those Jedi, and he had some degree of Swordsmanship training at the imperial academy. So he wasn't going into those duels completely blind, one of those Dark Jedi even accidentally killed themselves with his own blaster. They all also got stomped by Qu Rahn, so they're hardly prizewinning fighters. Katarn doesn't really have much in comparison to Mundi.

And what has Mundi accomplished that makes him so amazing? You keep downplaying Kyle's accomplishments, but what has Mundi actually achieved?

The best he ever did was not get killed by an inexperienced Grievous. Yeah there were a ton of circumstances but let's not kid ourselves that he actually stood a chance, he only survived because the cavalry arrived.

At least Kyle has actually BEAT opponents. Not just Jerec's crew, but tons of Reborn and Shadow Troopers, plus Desann. Call me crazy but I'm more impressed by the guy who has beaten numerous strong opponents than the guy who managed to not die long enough to be rescued against one.

Oh and another thing; Mundi's usual foes on the battlefield were battle droids (the only war machines I know that are programmed to panic and run away or talk back to their commanders). Kyle's were the Yuuzhan Vong.

That says it all.

ILS
Lol @ Grievous being inexperienced. He was already a master swordsman and one of the best hand-to-hand fighters in Star Wars as of Hypori, canonically.

Nobody is saying Mundi stood a chance - that isn't why the feat is impressive. Him lasting so long despite circumstances is what matters. Logically, if he wasn't fatigued, at a form style and prior knowledge disadvantage, and was facing someone less physically insane and unpredictable as Grievous, he would do better. I don't understand the logic of people who think a feat is only a feat if you "win". It's about scale.

Katarn wouldn't stand a chance against Grievous either, for the record. And being compared to Mundi isn't really a bad thing.

Probably falling on deaf ears but eh, I'm bored.

ILS
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Oh and another thing; Mundi's usual foes on the battlefield were battle droids (the only war machines I know that are programmed to panic and run away or talk back to their commanders). Kyle's were the Yuuzhan Vong. That logic is completely hideous. Are you implying that fighting battle droids is within the upper limits of Mundi's combative abilities? Just because that's what he happened to be fighting a lot of the time?

But, anyway, since we're on this topic, let's make a comparison. Maul killed a Yuuzhan Vong in his first ever encounter with one, with suppressed Force augmentation, within a couple of minutes. Now Mundi is no Maul, but if Grievous couldn't stomp him with the aforementioned circumstances, Maul isn't coming close to stomping a fresh Mundi. So, having said that, you need only imagine what a fresh Maul would do to a Vong in saber combat, and by proxy what Mundi would manage. When you're done with that, it's probably not hard to imagine Mundi and some of the other better fighters from prior eras doing well against them. The main issue with Vong is their lack of connection to the Force, and physical power. Get over the former, and your skill with a blade should handle the latter just fine.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by ILS
That logic is completely hideous. Are you implying that fighting battle droids is within the upper limits of Mundi's combative abilities? Just because that's what he happened to be fighting a lot of the time?

But, anyway, since we're on this topic, let's make a comparison. Maul killed a Yuuzhan Vong in his first ever encounter with one, with suppressed Force augmentation, within a couple of minutes. Now Mundi is no Maul, but if Grievous couldn't stomp him with the aforementioned circumstances, Maul isn't coming close to stomping a fresh Mundi. So, having said that, you need only imagine what a fresh Maul would do to a Vong in saber combat, and by proxy what Mundi would manage. When you're done with that, it's probably not hard to imagine Mundi and some of the other better fighters from prior eras doing well against them. The main issue with Vong is their lack of connection to the Force, and physical power. Get over the former, and your skill with a blade should handle the latter just fine.

Nope. The PT-era Jedi would get slaughtered by the Yuuzhan Vong.

The PT-era Jedi were too stodgy, narrow-minded and inflexible. Against a foe as unorthodox and unusual as the Yuuzhan Vong they wouldn't stand a chance. Maul was able to beat one because the Sith of his era had learned and adapted. Even Yoda admitted that the Jedi had failed to do the same.

Emperordmb
Kyle solidly.

Trocity
Katarn shortens Mundi's head several inches.

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