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Well, this match will include Ren Fujii, the protagonist of the visual novel Dies Irae , against Reiji Yoshino, the protagonist of the visual novel fortissimo EXS//Akkord:nachsten Phase.

You can find some nice guidelines on Reiji in previous threads, and he will be used in his state before the final battle of his visual novel.

Now some guidelines on Ren who, I believe, has never been used here. Ren is really physically strong. At weaker levels than those he is normally, he can get his hand crushed under a good weight of concrete and only feel numbness. Normally, he is the kind of guy who makes holes in solid walls involuntarily, doesn't need to eat, cannot get poisoned, doesn't need oxygen... His regular opponents, the Longinus Dreizehn Orden, are physical city busters who have tanked bombings during World War II, are supersonic and can move faster than the human eye can see, can swat bullets out of the air, and Ren is able to fight on even terms and kill them. His physical abilities should be on par with them, given that he is not seriously outmatched unless he fights against the upper echelons, who are on another whole level.

Now a rundown on his special abilities (I'm going to list some of their feats, of course not all of them):

Assiah- Basic level of attack. Ren can launch completely invisible slashes with his Guillotine, which are able to slash the heads of full grown men off without any kind of resistance.

Yetzirah-The materialization of his Holy Relic and weapon, the Guillotine. The slashes are a lot stronger than those in Assiah, able to instantly destroy the Relic of an LDO member and instantly kill one by beheading her. Furthermore, all blows dealt by the Guillotine damage the soul of the enemy.

Briah- Eine Faust Overture- The materialization of Ren's desire, applied to the world like a new law via reality warping. This speeds up Ren's personal time so he is a lot faster than his opponent.

Briah- Eine Faust Finale- The complete opposite of the above. This causes the surroundings' time (including opponents) to slow down. It also transforms Ren and gives him more Guillotines (a lot more). He comments that, for each attack an opponent makes, he can make fifty thousand.

Well, and to balance more things (given what I've read about Reiji), Ren gets the abilities of his Legion for this match (which he shouldn't be able to use, given the version of him I am using). All the abilities of his Legion are as they normally were, not amped to conceptual level. This are the ones he gets:

Malignant Tumor Apoptosis: From Shirou. Nerfs any "supernatural" down to normal human levels.

Briah- Midgard Volsunga Saga: From Machina (Goetz Von Berlichingen). With this ability, anything that gets hit by his punches dies instantly.

Briah- Csejte Ungarn Nachtzehrer: From Rusalka. His shadow extends in all directions. Anyone who touches it has his movements restricted (Even breathing can be stopped). The shadow can be manipulated to become shadow giants.

Ren has, of course, the following restrictions: He cannot use Atziluth. And, of course, we are using Ren before reaching Atziluth in Dies Irae, not Ren as Yatou Tenma in Kajiri Kamui Kagura.

Begin!

Hmm, interesting match. And I had just been considering making another thread with Reiji too, but this is good.

That said, damn, it's a tough match for Reiji given the more broken abilities Ren can use such as Machina's ability.

That said, from which point in the Fortissimo series is Reiji from for this thread? Is this him from when he beats Odin in the original game, from when he beats Ryuichi, or some other point in time? Just want to make sure here.

That also said, if from when he fought Ryuichi, then in terms of sheer destructive force, he has Fenris Wolf, which would outmatch any pure destructive attack Ren has, though he has Machina's ability to counter it. And does Shirou's ability only work on supernatural effects from supernatural objects or from people themselves? If so, then Ren could probably negate Reiji's Da Capo.

If not though, then with Uroarbrunner, Reiji could use it to keep up with Ren's movements no matter how fast his Briah could make him unless he really starts surpassing lightspeed.

I was thinking about Reiji as he was in the versus Narutoverse thread, that version. This is actually the best way I found to make a balanced match, without it being a stomp one way or the other.

Malignant Tumor Apoptosis works on people too, it's its main function.

Now that you said so, Ren's Eine Faust Finale, no matter how time was slow down, wasn't able to make him keep up with Schreiber, whose Briah "Niflheimr Fenriswolf" makes him always faster than his opponent. So that's a limit.

Actually, I severly doubt Overture can make Ren reach lightspeed.

Ah, the one I made. Okay then.

I see. Does it work indefinitely, or only for a finite amount of time. If the former, then Reiji's Da Capo is useless if Ren keeps using it. Though his physical abilities should be enough to give Ren trouble anyway.

Alright then. And you said they're supersonic in movement speed, right? Just exactly how fast was Ren at his fastest shown outside of his Aztliuth? Because Reiji is still plenty fast to dodge attacks from Momiji's magical weapon and in general have some pretty damn good reflexes.

Ah, so then that would be his limit then...

Originally posted by danteiscool
Ah, the one I made. Okay then.

I see. Does it work indefinitely, or only for a finite amount of time. If the former, then Reiji's Da Capo is useless if Ren keeps using it. Though his physical abilities should be enough to give Ren trouble anyway.

Alright then. And you said they're supersonic in movement speed, right? Just exactly how fast was Ren at his fastest shown outside of his Aztliuth? Because Reiji is still plenty fast to dodge attacks from Momiji's magical weapon and in general have some pretty damn good reflexes.

Ah, so then that would be his limit then...

It got used, and then the supernatural is nullified. I don't know about any time limit, but maybe further reading can give us something.

His fastest should be when using Eine Faust Finale when, a supersonic faster than the eye can see attacks, he can do so fifty thousand times.

Judging by a limited use of Overture, everything should move in slow motion to Ren.

Hmm, doesn't he have to do chants to activate his more special abilities though?

But that's when going up against people that you said are supersonic in speed. Reiji is considerably faster than that.

Originally posted by danteiscool
Hmm, doesn't he have to do chants to activate his more special abilities though?

But that's when going up against people that you said are supersonic in speed. Reiji is considerably faster than that.

I've seen Reinhard using his Legion's abilities without chants, but the time Ren used Beatrice's Briah in combat, the chant was shown being done by Beatrice herself (this is from a video, I'm not that far into Dies yet). So I think it's safe to assume the legionnaires do the chant while inside Ren.

To use his own Briah though, yes, Ren is going to be chanting parts of Goethe's Faust. However, there's no rule he must stand still. For example, otherpeople showed the ability to use theirs while struggling to overpower the enemies' weapon.

Well, Reiji won't be slown down to that degree, but still he would be a lot slower under Finale's influence, while also a lot slower from Ren's perspective when Overture is active.

Hmm, well if Reiji could somehow interrupt the Legion's chant, then he could probably stop Ren from using pretty much half of his arsenal right then and there.

Even then, Reiji is fast enough to at least react to Ryuichi when he's in Turbulence Mode so Reiji is at least two whole classes above supersonic speedsters like Ren, so the slow down effect is going to have be pretty damn significant to really even things out.

I think a pretty safe bet for Ren would be Csejte Ungarn Nachtzehrer to stop Reiji Flat, then use Malignant Tumor Apoptosis and Eine Faust Finale to even his chances at harming Reiji, and finishing him with Volsunga Saga. All in all, Reiji is faster and much more destructive than Ren due to Fenris Wolf, and they are pretty even in terms of hax in this match. The chant of a legionnaire would be pretty difficult to stop, since they are just souls inside Ren.

One question, any Fortissimo character that would be able to fight evenly with a god from Shinza? The series sounds really uber.

True. Unless Da Capo can somehow reset them chanting. Even if not, Da Capo Enhalt could probably render him immune to most attacks due to how it works.

Shinza? Maybe. Odin for sure could put up a good fight against a lot of fictional characters, but not sure about other Fortissimo characters...

Originally posted by danteiscool
True. Unless Da Capo can somehow reset them chanting. Even if not, Da Capo Enhalt could probably render him immune to most attacks due to how it works.

Shinza? Maybe. Odin for sure could put up a good fight against a lot of fictional characters, but not sure about other Fortissimo characters...

...True. That's actually a really clever way to get around most things.

Shinza Banshou is the series Paradise Lost, Dies Irae and KKK belong to. I was asking about the gods who are the real heavy weights. Incidentally, Ren becomes the second most powerful god in the story during KKK.

Yep. And Reiji is a creative enough fighter to try using such a method. Not to mention with Uroarbrunner, he could probably predict when they're going to start chanting and prepare in advance.

Ah, okay. Confused Shinza with something else. Hmm, aren't the characters there more powerful than the DI characters for the most part?

Originally posted by danteiscool
Yep. And Reiji is a creative enough fighter to try using such a method. Not to mention with Uroarbrunner, he could probably predict when they're going to start chanting and prepare in advance.

Ah, okay. Confused Shinza with something else. Hmm, aren't the characters there more powerful than the DI characters for the most part?

I am not versed well enough on Paradise Lost to speak for it. But for the most part, KKK characters are many, many orders of magnitude above baseline DI characters, because most of them are gods (Gudou Gods in particular). However, the top end of DI's cast is vastly above KKK's regular cast. The upper tiers of KKK are much stronger than DI's though (and with upper tiers I mean, like, two people).

By upper tiers, would you be referring to Hajun? And Yato?

Originally posted by danteiscool
By upper tiers, would you be referring to Hajun? And Yato?

Yeah. Thanks to much fighting, Yatou has a Taikyouku Value big enough to wipe the floor with everyone below Hajun. Hajun's Value scales to that of the enemy and surpasses it. He can only be defeated by targeting a very specific weakness.

Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius Values in DI: 90+
KKK's cast average values: 60+
Yatou's (Ren in KKK) Value: 100+

Wow. Just what's Hajun's weakness if his is pretty much off the scale?

Originally posted by danteiscool
Wow. Just what's Hajun's weakness if his is pretty much off the scale?

Tumor. It can get confused with a god's Apoptosis, but it is another concept. Habaki, one of KKK's main characters is this Tumor. You have to remove Tumor to defeat Hajun. I have not read even one bit of KKK yet (planning to read it once I finish Dies, it's actually shorter), so I cannot explain in much detail.

According to a poster on comicvine (I can't post links but see if you can find it)
Hajun can stalemate omnipotents or it takes an omnipotent to beat him. What do you think?

Originally posted by AlphaVortex
According to a poster on comicvine (I can't post links but see if you can find it)
Hajun can stalemate omnipotents or it takes an omnipotent to beat him. What do you think?

Bullshit. Apart from the fact that I don't think true omnipotence exists, "omnipotents" cannot be stalemated. Hajun is as close as you get to being one, though.

Sorry for double posting but, elaborating on that, Hajun is also not omnipotent by the single fact that he has a weakness. But, if you do not target it, there's a 99,999999999% chance that he wrecks you.

Originally posted by trexalfa
Bullshit. Apart from the fact that I don't think true omnipotence exists, "omnipotents" cannot be stalemated. Hajun is as close as you get to being one, though.


Agreed, I don't consider omnipotence a valid claim in a VS debate. Feats are all that matters IMO.

So Hajun is one of the strongest characters in fiction?

Who's the weakest person you think can beat him?

Originally posted by AlphaVortex
Agreed, I don't consider omnipotence a valid claim in a VS debate. Feats are all that matters IMO.

So Hajun is one of the strongest characters in fiction?

Who's the weakest person you think can beat him?

I checked the thread you told me about, Mxy beating Hajun is pure bullshit, and the Flucrum's claim depends on his true identity because, right now, he is featless.

Judging on the characters Hajun killed, I can think HOTU Thanos and maybe Pre-retcon Beyonder are enough. But there's an issue with all of this, and that is that Taikyouku/Atziluth ignores scale all together. Its Value is the only thing that matters, if you've got a lesser one you can't do shit to the one with the higher Value. This allowed ,for example, Reinhard outpowering one of Mercurius' literal Supernovae with a Railway Gun. And at a much lesser Taikyouku value than 90 (which this characters have), you can already destroy all of creation under the Throne (an infinite multiverse, maybe a megaverse even). And if you thought about Demonbane, no, he doesn't stand a chance in hell.

You'll have to wait for me to read KKK to tell but, I remember that someone told me some glass cannon characteristics Hajun had. I'll have to check.

Originally posted by trexalfa
I checked the thread you told me about, Mxy beating Hajun is pure bullshit, and the Flucrum's claim depends on his true identity because, right now, he is featless.

Judging on the characters Hajun killed, I can think HOTU Thanos and maybe Pre-retcon Beyonder are enough. But there's an issue with all of this, and that is that Taikyouku/Atziluth ignores scale all together. Its Value is the only thing that matters, if you've got a lesser one you can't do shit to the one with the higher Value. This allowed ,for example, Reinhard outpowering one of Mercurius' literal Supernovae with a Railway Gun. And at a much lesser Taikyouku value than 90 (which this characters have), you can already destroy all of creation under the Throne (an infinite multiverse, maybe a megaverse even). And if you thought about Demonbane, no, he doesn't stand a chance in hell.

You'll have to wait for me to read KKK to tell but, I remember that someone told me some glass cannon characteristics Hajun had. I'll have to check.

I was thinking Sai Akuto from Demon King Daimaou.
His ability, the Law of Identity, basically gives him Writer ability:

Writer - the ability to see and control the worlds as information, like to write a story in fiction. Endless logical possibilities could include anything that can be described. There are universes of different sizes , (through infinite space) with all sorts of laws. There are stories that include parallel worlds, infinite dimensional spaces, as well as foreign gods , for whom all this is nothing more than fiction (and even lower beings are able to think in terms of an infinitely dense infinity). Stories can be raised to the power, forming a structure where the real worlds for some creatures are only dreams or fiction for the second, whose worlds are also a story for the third. This hierarchy can aspire even to infinity, but the law of identity will always be higher than that of any level.


He would beat PR Beyonder and HotU Thanos IMO. So if Hajun is on their level or weaker, he would probably lose to Sai Akuto.

Originally posted by AlphaVortex
I was thinking Sai Akuto from Demon King Daimaou.
His ability, the Law of Identity, basically gives him Writer ability:

Writer - the ability to see and control the worlds as information, like to write a story in fiction. Endless logical possibilities could include anything that can be described. There are universes of different sizes , (through infinite space) with all sorts of laws. There are stories that include parallel worlds, infinite dimensional spaces, as well as foreign gods , for whom all this is nothing more than fiction (and even lower beings are able to think in terms of an infinitely dense infinity). Stories can be raised to the power, forming a structure where the real worlds for some creatures are only dreams or fiction for the second, whose worlds are also a story for the third. This hierarchy can aspire even to infinity, but the law of identity will always be higher than that of any level.


He would beat PR Beyonder and HotU Thanos IMO. So if Hajun is on their level or weaker, he would probably lose to Sai Akuto.

That's pretty hardcore reality warping. Still, what limits has it shown in the story? Because by this line of reasoning, a mook Witch from Umineko may as well be able to trash any Marvel character.

Originally posted by trexalfa
That's pretty hardcore reality warping. Still, what limits has it shown in the story? Because by this line of reasoning, a mook Witch from Umineko may as well be able to trash any Marvel character.


The excerpt shows he's above Hilbert Space level.

Basically infinite universes with infinite spatial dimensions is just a speck to him.

Originally posted by AlphaVortex
The excerpt shows he's above Hilbert Space level.

Basically infinite universes with infinite spatial dimensions is just a speck to him.

To add perspective, Hajun killed multiple beings that can destroy infinite universes with ridiculous ease (and, as I previously said, some interpretations have those being an infinite number of multiverses). As previously said also, scale means nothing to him. Those he killed had funny things, such as being able to rape concepts in more ways than I can count.

And Sai, furthermore, is just another reality warper. Just because his power is writer-like, doesn't mean he is THE writer, as in the one writing the setting.

Originally posted by trexalfa
To add perspective, Hajun killed multiple beings that can destroy infinite universes with ridiculous ease (and, as I previously said, some interpretations have those being an infinite number of multiverses). As previously said also, scale means nothing to him. Those he killed had funny things, such as being able to rape concepts in more ways than I can count.

And Sai, furthermore, is just another reality warper. Just because his power is writer-like, doesn't mean he is THE writer, as in the one writing the setting.


Were the multiverses Hajun destroyed infinite dimensional? Sai Akuto completely transcends infinite dimensional multiverses.

Scale doesn't matter to Sai either, because Law of Identity is above everything. Scale can go up to infinity, and the Law of Identity would still be higher.

Okay, so clearly I've missed out on DKD. Just when exactly did Sai Akuto become that powerful?

Originally posted by danteiscool
Okay, so clearly I've missed out on DKD. Just when exactly did Sai Akuto become that powerful?

It was in the Light Novels and I think it was at the end. Anime DKD isn't nearly as powerful.

Originally posted by AlphaVortex
Were the multiverses Hajun destroyed infinite dimensional? Sai Akuto completely transcends infinite dimensional multiverses.

Scale doesn't matter to Sai either, because Law of Identity is above everything. Scale can go up to infinity, and the Law of Identity would still be higher.

Hajun wouldn't have trouble with such multiverses either, the concept of "infinite dimensional multiverse" would simply be annihilated.

The Law of Identity's workings sound awfully like those of Taikyouku. Which itsValue is basically infinite in Hajun.

Originally posted by trexalfa
Hajun wouldn't have trouble with such multiverses either, the concept of "infinite dimensional multiverse" would simply be annihilated.

The Law of Identity's workings sound awfully like those of Taikyouku. Which itsValue is basically infinite in Hajun.


How does Taikyoko work?

Law of Identity basically works like you can keep creating infinite upon infinite upon infinite structures infinitely, but no matter what, the Law of Identity would always be higher.

So Hajun's Taikyoko value can be infinite, and he can keep increasing it, but no matter what LoI would still be higher, assuming I'm understanding you correctly.


Anyways, I personally place Sai Akuto above HotU Thanos and PR Beyonder, because neither of them have done something that complex, so if Hajun is at their level, Sai Akuto would probably beat them IMO.


All my information from Hajun comes from you though, so I'm just basing it off of what you just said.

Originally posted by AlphaVortex
How does Taikyoko work?

Law of Identity basically works like you can keep creating infinite upon infinite upon infinite structures infinitely, but no matter what, the Law of Identity would always be higher.

So Hajun's Taikyoko value can be infinite, and he can keep increasing it, but no matter what LoI would still be higher, assuming I'm understanding you correctly.


Anyways, I personally place Sai Akuto above HotU Thanos and PR Beyonder, because neither of them have done something that complex, so if Hajun is at their level, Sai Akuto would probably beat them IMO.


All my information from Hajun comes from you though, so I'm just basing it off of what you just said.

Taikyouku is the source of all of existence in Shinza. Its a power Gods possess, which lets them project a cosmic Law based of their own greatest desire. Hadou Gods in special, since their Laws basically outflow from them. Taikyouku is the source of everything, from souls to concepts. Basically, the Gods are the setting of the novels, with the Throne God's Law being the one dominating existence. Hajun is the sixth Throne God, and the most powerful of them all. Taikyouku is a supreme force, it lets the Gods mess with concepts all they want.

For example, if one's Gods' Taikyouku created some explosion, that would blow up concepts. If another one's grants an instant kill move, then it can kill concepts. Hajun's Taikyouku, as I understand it, is based on "annihilating everything other than myself".

Why would the Law of Identity be higher?

Originally posted by trexalfa
Taikyouku is the source of all of existence in Shinza. Its a power Gods possess, which lets them project a cosmic Law based of their own greatest desire. Hadou Gods in special, since their Laws basically outflow from them. Taikyouku is the source of everything, from souls to concepts. Basically, the Gods are the setting of the novels, with the Throne God's Law being the one dominating existence. Hajun is the sixth Throne God, and the most powerful of them all. Taikyouku is a supreme force, it lets the Gods mess with concepts all they want.

For example, if one's Gods' Taikyouku created some explosion, that would blow up concepts. If another one's grants an instant kill move, then it can kill concepts. Hajun's Taikyouku, as I understand it, is based on "annihilating everything other than myself".

Why would the Law of Identity be higher?


the ability to see and control the worlds as information, like to write a story in fiction. Endless logical possibilities could include anything that can be described. There are universes of different sizes , (through infinite space) with all sorts of laws. There are stories that include parallel worlds, infinite dimensional spaces, as well as foreign gods , for whom all this is nothing more than fiction (and even lower beings are able to think in terms of an infinitely dense infinity). Stories can be raised to the power, forming a structure where the real worlds for some creatures are only dreams or fiction for the second, whose worlds are also a story for the third. This hierarchy can aspire even to infinity, but the law of identity will always be higher than that of any level.

Then wouldn't that be a no limits fallacy? Because from what you're saying, it doesn't seem like Sai's power wasn't fully put to the test, so trying to ascertain its limits could be... troublesome.

Originally posted by danteiscool
Then wouldn't that be a no limits fallacy? Because from what you're saying, it doesn't seem like Sai's power wasn't fully put to the test, so trying to ascertain its limits could be... troublesome.


What are you talking about? The quote clearly shows his abilities. He basically has control over infinite dimensional multiverses, and he can keep creating planes higher than that and can keep doing so forever.

It's not a no limits fallacy.

It's basically like he's Hilbert Space level ++++++*infinity+++

Huh, okay. And because my mind is a little scattered right now, what proof is there of infinite dimensional multiverses in the LN? Just want to make sure of his ability's exact scale...

Also, confirmed. While using Overture, Ren surpassed lightning speed. The lightning was moving in slow motion to him.

And Finale is substantially better than Overture.

How much faster?

Don't know how much, but given his previous speed boosts he should be entering the relativistic range. Or at least be massively hypersonic.

In which case, Reiji would still have the speed advantage.